Are IT careers vanishing as I have heard?

[Jack Sprat]

Are programming, web design, java programmers etc. being outsourced like so many other things?

[Skittles]

1. yes

I work in IT and every day I see more and more foreign names creep into all IT groups - they are pimping off IT in a sickening manner and the quality of what is replacing these jobs just S U C K S - already we are just getting used to the crappy service - know how when you call for any kind of assistance and get connected overseas you know it's going to suck? Well, that is true across the board.

[Pushed To The Left]

26. I just got my IT degree last year. This is bad news, but it's not surprising

More cheap labor conservatism. I would love to see this practice outlawed, or at least regulated to the point where it wouldn't be so attractive to these companies. They sure as hell shouldn't get a tax break for doing this!

[Skittles]

33. I've been in the business 27 years

it has been a long and painful decline - everyone I know wants out - even if you can get a job here you'll probably be "backboning" for a slew of incompetents overseas...it drives people nuts.

[Greyhound]

73. 10 years here and it looks like I'm going back into it.

for just the reason you stated. The entire organization is populated with microserfs that have no understanding of what they're doing. Click, drag, and script is what passes for development now, and Micro$hit is the only game in town.

The only reason I'm going back is that the pay in other areas is just too low to make a living. Right now I'm making 25% of what I made in 1999 and no benefits, the jobs I'm up for are about 40% with benefits so I can at least start over. The instant it is feasible, I'm back out.

[King Coal]

116. We're in the same boat, Skittles. I may have by about 3 years, but

your words, "painful" and "incompetents" are right on the mark.

[AndyTiedye]

87. Reversing the Tax Incentives Was a Big Plank In Kerry's 2004 Platform

It all got drowned out by the Swift Boaters, of course.

[Morereason]

101. Absolutely... In IT 15 years... Making half what I did 7 years ago. Unstable. Leaving the country

[Deja Q]

2. Yup. Not as rapidly as before, but it hasn't ceased.

Indeed, if trade is about trade, haven't we taught the world how to program, so now we can trade our goodies for theirs?


I'm not even a programmer mentality (I have some talent and innovation but not the proficiency to put it to practical use) and the offshoring of those jobs is wrong.

Rather like following management's orders for making documentation for a kindergartener and then management throwing a fit because the kindergartener had problems. Sorry, but cue cards don't run the world. You still need innate knowledge of HOW things work, which is why cue cards are of any use at all. Which is another reason why offshoring call centers is a stupid thing to do...

My next field will be an electrical engineer. Can't offshore that...

[Skittles]

3. gawd, the script readers

ask them a question and they have no idea what the f*** you're talking about - I just can't stand it. I know what you mean about dumbing down doco - I've dumbed down as much as I can for them and they still SUCK

[Deja Q]

6. And then clueless management continues to blame the wrong people. Have you heard of ITIL?

That's the new template IT managers in the UK and US are having a big orgasm about.

Some of it makes logical sense.

Some of it is a lovely thought that just doesn't work in the real world.

Some of it just seems like they want to nix technical minds in favor of card reading monkeys and petty apologists. We'll always need apologists, but what's wrong with a technical mind? I saved a person with a nasty issue earlier today and no doubt I'll get blamed on Monday because it didn't adhere to some dumbass, restrictive procedure.



Active Directory sucks elephant nuts too, but that's another argument... :D

[Skittles]

8. it's the culture differences killing me

when I have to explain to someone that when we get fined 1000 dollars a minute when an online is down, you don't take a f***ing break to get some dinner until the damn thing is up

[dkofos]

45. They have offshored EE's. And what they can't offshore they will H1B.

[0rganism]

106. oh man, wake up and smell the curry, already

"My next field will be an electrical engineer. Can't offshore that..."

WTF? Did you miss the :sarcasm: tag on that? Believe me, EE offshoring can and does and will continue to happen at an astounding rate, especially for chip design work. I've watched my BSEE turn into so many worthless letters over the course of little more than a decade because of it.

It doesn't matter one bit what the native tongue of your EE is as long as his VHDL doesn't mess up the nightly build. EE microelectronics jobs are going to Bangalore right along with the IT jobs.

Want a job that can't be offshored? Go into HVAC. The engineering team who designed the thermostat may live in Malaysia and it may have been pre-assembled in China, but the folks who install and maintain it locally physically cannot be offshored. If you're lucky, your skills will still be worth something in 15 years.

[Tesha]

114. Are you kidding?

> My next field will be an electrical engineer. Can't offshore that...

Are you kidding? Did you perhaps mean "Electrician"? 'Cause
electrical engineering is off-shoring just as rapidly as any
other technical profession!

Be a plumber!

Be an electrician!

Do *ANYTHING* that *ABSOLUTELY REQUIRES* your tangible
presence!

But don't be an "information worker" 'cause we're *ALL*
fucked in the new world economy's race to the bottom!

Tesha

[AndyTiedye]

4. IT Is Recovering Somewhat

Some jobs are being outsourced, but there are some openings here too.

Hiring managers are starting to realize that all of the good engineers in India are already working for somebody,
so they're gonna have to pay more than they thought, and the dollar doesn't buy so many rupees anymore either.
There's also up to a 12 hour time difference, which makes scheduling meetings quite a challenge.
Customers are complaining about outsourced customer service as well.

At some point outsourcing just isn't worth it for them anymore, and we may be getting to that point.

[Deja Q]

7. Ah, but when you get an Indian these days, they use "American" names and have cleaner accents.

Which only goes to show how the suits are clueless. We want honesty. We do not want a cheat, covered with a lie. I don't think that's right. But it's a clever way to try to do an end-run around the purported problem.

It also goes to show some people would give up their name for a buck, but that's their problem - some people think I have self-esteem issues; I'm Mr. Ultra Confident compared to "Lisa" or "Tex". I'm just waiting for more people nicknamed "Dakota" and "Noxema" to be my representatives for something...

Sadly, when they ought to ask questions, they don't either. Like Windows re-activation, maybe there's something they ought to know about? They don't care. It's a series of 3 questions that nobody's going to care about and, voila, new activation code. Stupid.

[Skittles]

9. a guy from India called me and said his name was CHARLIE

I said my name is DINESHA - does that sound believable to you? Please use your real name. And he did.

[Deja Q]

13. Awesome response!

Mind if I use that if I end up in a similar situation?

[Skittles]

15. LOL

as long as you come up with a good name - I resented it not just on my end but it is demeaning for people to give up their identities - it's not right

[fujiyama]

27. I gotta admit

that was pretty clever.

And you're right. It's stupid for them to play this "I'm Bob from Iowa" act. I mean, the accent usually is pretty easy to identify...

[Skittles]

32. it's not his fault

it's what he's being told to do - I don't fault the people themselves - they are just trying to make a living like we are. What I despise are the corporate masters in America pimping jobs off to the lowest bidders; I find it sickening.

[fujiyama]

37. You're absolutely right.

For the people there, these are decent opportunities. I don't think anyone should fault them for taking advantage of people offering them jobs.

[Deja Q]

83. Ah, but they still do it anyway. And that makes them complicit.

When Americans went to other countries to do work, did they have to change their names from "Jim" to "Raj"? Nope.

[Nikia]

54. I don't know if this is common, but I have encountered Indians

With American names, at least American first names. It is in a professional situation. They work for large international corporations and that seems to be their name, at least professionally. I don't know if many Indian immigrants are doing this. I just know that some are.
When I was younger, I knew of Chinese immigrants doing this also. I think that they change their names to something more Americanized so they don't have their names mangled by the majority of Americans.

[regnaD kciN]

36. But then...

At some point outsourcing just isn't worth it for them anymore, and we may be getting to that point.

...they'll just move the jobs to some other place with dirt-cheap labor. (China, anyone?) And, by the time that option runs out, I'm sure IT will have taken hold in some sub-Saharan nation or another. The jobs won't be coming back to the U.S., they'll be going to Togo or the Ivory Coast or Swaziland.

[AndyTiedye]

60. They'll Have to Build Schools and Universities in Those Places First

The reason India has done so well recently is because they have an excellent educational system.
That is not the case in the other countries you mentioned.

The other thing that will put an end to this outsourcing is the declining value of the dollar.

[Deja Q]

84. They are building schools and universities. Even corporations are chipping in to help.

I wish I still had the links; but no doubt many of those zdnet articles can still be found...

[smalll]

5. Yes, and America says good riddance -

you IT guys will never get any support from the public, and rightfully so - when you guys rode high in the 90s, you were as insufferably arrogant as any ex-high-school-football-player, ex-fraternity managment jerk, and you had at least as much talent as they do in making the rest of us mere mortals feel small and ridiculous. America can forgive the management jocks somewhat, at least they have the excuse of knowing nothing else, and living their whole lives lording it over everyone else. Also, you guys are more annoying, and way less attractive. :shrug:

Bring on the underpaid Indians of the subcontinent! It's the revenge of us techno-ignorant latter-day Luddites. How sweet it is!

[Skittles]

10. you obviously do not understand the IT industry

yes there were some high rollers but most of us were just trying to make a living just like everyone else

[smalll]

11. I wasn't talking about big money, which as you say was only available to a minority -

I was talking about the big 'ol geeky arrogance towards us average mortals, which you all shared. It is no accident, comrade, that you have no sympathy from the public at large in your more recent travails.

[Skittles]

14. I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about

I suspect you need therapy of some sort

[regnaD kciN]

38. Perhaps "small"'s name is an anatomical reference...?

:evilgrin:

[Greyhound]

71. It seems appropriate on so many levels...

:rofl:
:kick:

[glitch]

16. Sounds like any arrogance you meet is justified. nt

[Deja Q]

21. I'm inclined to agree.

[AndyTiedye]

63. Mr. Smalll Stuffed a Geek into a Locker at School

and the geek jimmied the lock from the inside instead of staying in the locker until Smalll felt like letting him out.

Smalll has been resentful ever since.

He doesn't like it when people don't know "their place".

Note how he is willing to give all the managers a pass on arrogance.
They're OK because he finds them attractive!
So they "deserve" good jobs and are allowed to be far more arrogant than any geek would know how to be.

[Rex]

17. Wow. Bad help desk experience?

Or what?

[AndyTiedye]

24. "Big 'ol geeky arrogance"? What IS that exactly? I Think You Misunderstand Us

What is "geeky arrogance"? What is it about us all that you interpret as "arrogant"?

Do you think we're ignoring you if we don't make eye contact? It might not be what you think.
Quite a few of us have Aspergers Syndrome and simply can't do eye contact the way you expect.
It may also take a bit more to get our attention if we're involved in something. Sorry about that.
There isn't a whole lot we can do about it.

[BlooInBloo]

25. To pretend ignorance as to its existence is just stupid....

.... But whether or not it deserves that dude/dudette's level of schadenfreude is another issue. Since those people have husbands, wives, and children just like everyone else.

[regnaD kciN]

39. More to the point...

...it seems like "small" believes that everybody who put together lines of C code for a living turned into Bill Gates or Steve Jobs, billionaire nerds looking down on everyone else.

In fact (and I can say this as someone who worked in software development from 1987 to 2003), the majority of programmers were little different from most desk jockeys in non-IT professions -- just average guys looking to bring home a paycheck to put food on the table (and, counter to urban legend, most of those paychecks were for no more than other average "white collar" professions). If you sat back for a drink and conversation with most any of them, the topic would likely have nothing to do with computers, but rather with their weekend hobbies, views on current events or -- at their most job-related -- complaints about anal-retentive management.

The notion that IT was the domain of a vast army of overprivileged, elitist techno-geeks with no life outside the computer is about as out-of-touch as the "conventional wisdom" that a "liberal" is a snooty, bearded, Volvo-driving college professor who is teaching his students to blame America for everything.

:eyes:

[baby_mouse]

40. Also, substantial numbers were deeply community conscious.

Not all of them turned into "jock-nerds".

Although, to be fair, some of them really did.

[sendero]

55. Exactly..

... stereotypes are interesting and sometimes true, but not usuallly.

[fujiyama]

28. LOL

Some IT people have poor people skills (some are introverts and a few are socially awkward). Sure there are some arrogant pricks in IT, that look down on those not being as technically literate as themselves, but those people will usually hit a low ceiling. In most industries (and IT is no exception), a lack of people skills will only take you so far.

[CTyankee]

77. Yes. My IT "arrogant" guy turned up at an opera I attended one evening. It turns out

he is a big fan of Italian opera, as my husband and I are. From that time on, we had something in common and perhaps were more "real" to each other. So the relationship at work was different. It helps knowing you have something in common with someone you work with daily. I've since left the agency, but when I run into him and his wife at concerts I enjoy talking with them.

My advice is to try a common ground with your IT person. So what if they are geeks and you are clueless about some IT stuff? Different strokes for different folks...

[WritersBlock]

31. Jeebus, enough. I'll reactivate your account, okay??

;)

[OzarkDem]

48. Comrade?

Interesting.

[I Have A Dream]

75. Please don't generalize. I've never been arrogant to anyone in my life.

It gives me extreme happiness to help people to solve their problems. I appreciate the relief that they feel when everything is working again.

:(

[Deja Q]

12. I resent your remark and oppose it vehemently.

I've been kind and supportive of the people I work for. I am very well respected, even despite my foibles. I treat customers with respect and do my best. And I won't deny I go out and play dumb just to see how others react. There is a problem with how SOME IT people act, but it sure as hell isn't all of us. Not in the slightest.

Plus, with the data we're supposed to protect and ensure remains unfettered, in working order, and so on, it is a stressful field. Especially databases where tallying up inaccurate information is tantamount to suicide.

While some salaries did become too high, a lot of salaries were damn well justified. Especially support jobs where employees have to take a LOT of abuse from people who don't know the systems.

I'm also a damn good technical writer, though I write for technical people in mind - not non-technical people who aren't going to understand it, even if I used pictures drawn in crayon to demonstrate my point. Which is the point; who reads documentation, and if people don't have the skill then should they be allowed to touch a relevant system? Um, no... coworkers of the time appreciated my efforts and said of all the people who wrote documents, mine were by far the most concise yet informative. But management said they were bad; I had to write for a kindergartener in mind. And you can't talk back or justify your mindset; what they want is their own land of makebelieve, regardless of how futile it is in reality. You can't tell them in return that people don't bother to read documentation and that putting an untrained person to do such a task is dumb. But that's what they want; they think anything IT can be done by cue card reading people. Having worked with people who have terrific skills in one area but do IT functions, their ability to do in-depth IT work isn't there and those skills just cannot be passed on via a piece of paper that may as well have been scribbled on by a toddler using a periwinkle blue crayon!

Just like how you wouldn't want anyone practicing CPR, based solely on a pamphlet and no training in the medical field.

BTW: We may not be physically attractive, but some of us have souls of depth and clarity.

BTW2: They are not underpaid. India's middle class is booming, therefore they have no qualms being given the money and status. Trouble is, until we're a one-world government, giving foreign countries such power may not be so bright if they turn on you. And that is as much a threat to a nation's security as anything else.

Forgive me, my rant. But I will admit. Your myopia was amusing too.

[Bluebear]

23. What a horrid, mean-spirited post. Horrible.

HORRIBLE.

[Eurobabe]

30. Wow, my hubby is a CIO and he is good-looking

what a nasty post! :wtf:

[high density]

44. Umm, ok.

You seem to have no idea what the IT people do for this country, most of it which is thankless behind the scenes work that you obviously have no clue about.

What are you doing using the internet if you despise the people who are keeping it running?

[City of Mills]

46. This IT guy says....

Fuck you and the horse you rode in on :grr: - i'm sure you'll fix your own problem next time you can't get your precious computer online to bash your fellow DU members. :argh:

[OzarkDem]

47. Some cheap labor newbies here today

Interesting. Wonder if we can outsource their jobs?

[eggman67]

58. "...making the rest of us mere mortals feel small and ridiculous."

Actually, it was only you that felt small and ridiculous but that's only because you are, in fact, small and ridiculous.

[TahitiNut]

59. Sounds like a personal problem to me.

:shrug: :eyes:

[AndyTiedye]

65. You Don't Like/Don't Understand the Technology, So You Want to Shoot the Messenger

That's brilliant. Will you understand it better over a 15000-mile telephone connection with someone who more-or-less speaks English?

[AnnieBW]

94. While Smalll was typing that

Half of DEFCON just pwned his box. :D

[AngryOldDem]

95. It was in the '90s when things began to go to hell in IT

This has to be one of the most ignorant posts I've ever seen here. I'll just chalk it up to displaced anger, or to be more charitable, a poor attempt at flame-bait.

[Morereason]

102. Yeah right. Lets all be jealous of those who are lucky enough to make a living wage

Typical narcistic American BS. Kick each other in the teeth until we all bleed. This kind of crap is what is killing our country. Give me a break.

[DBoon]

119. trolls can be awfully small

nt

[Xenotime]

122. Fantastic post! IT guys are ugly.

[OutNow]

18. Going, Going, Gone

I've spent 30 years in IT. Yes, outsourcing / offshoring is rampant. One trend that continues to occur is when a local company decides to outsource their IT work to a big IT company such as IBM. The current IT staff is promised continued employment for some period (maybe 6 months, maybe a year). During that time, they are "encouraged" to document their processes, coding standards, etc. Not a bad thing in itself, but in reality they are doing a mass knowledge dump. After the initial period, they are either fired outright, or told they will receive a bonus if they stay for 3 more months and train their replacements who will arrive next Monday from Shanghai or Bangalore. And I'm not talking about call center folks; I mean everything - operations, programming, design, architecture, etc. Did you know that most computers servers can be turned on remotely (i.e. from Brazil)?

Lots more info if you're interested at:

http://www.washtech.org/

http://www.allianceibm.org/

[Skittles]

34. alas, Brazil seems to have 1950's phone system

they are very often incapable of paging support or joining conference calls

[Liberal In Texas]

19. Yep. They work for pennies on the dollar in India.

I know a guy with a masters. He's out of work.

He's talented, but they out-sourced his job to Indian companies that pay $5/hour.

He used to make in the $35/hr. range. Now nada. Nothing.

No job, no insurance.

[AndyTiedye]

64. What Was He Doing?

I don't think you can hire anybody with an education in India for $5 an hour anymore.

[BlooInBloo]

20. Plenty of jobs in Seattle for knowledgeable programmers.

[Deja Q]

22. Link?

:evilgrin:

[high density]

49. Microsoft doesn't seem to want to reach out

Instead they just constantly say "need more H1-Bs, stat!!"

They've got plenty of cash to build some software development complexes throughout this country and tap the workforce. Not everybody has the desire or ability to pack up everything and move to Redmond, WA, even in this lousy job market.

[BlooInBloo]

51. lol - I wasn't talking about MS - I said & meant "Seattle".

[high density]

52. That's fine

What I posted about Microsoft still stands as I think they're a fairly large source of the Seattle area computer jobs, whether directly or indirectly.

[BlooInBloo]

53. They are. They just didn't figure into my claim that there are plenty of job in Seattle.

[Greyhound]

76. The very thing some of warned about 10 years ago is now happening.

There is a lack of high-end talent today because they killed all the entry level jobs, and that's where the high level people come from.

Most of the gurus have been managing $tarbucks and selling cars since 2000, their skills have deteriorated and they are not "certified" in the flavor of the month technology, add this to the rampant ageism in the field and that's why your IT department can't even keep the print servers up.

[fujiyama]

29. Some of it is being outsourced

but there is only so much you can. And at this point, India isn't quite as cheap as it once was and cultural differences have been problematic in some cases...Some companies have brought back operations that were abroad earlier (or shifted them to Eastern Europe or wherever else).

But if you have talent and decent experience, IT still has better job prospects than many other fields. Programming skills are quite useful, regardless of what you may hear. If you think people with technology and engineering degrees and backgrounds have it rough, it's even tougher in the job market without those skills!

[Skittles]

35. LOL

now they're looking to switch from India and Brazil to China - didn't you hear, communism is en vogue now that they realized they can make money off of it?

[Sanctified]

41. Yes, I personally work with web designers and programmers from India.

A company would have to be crazy not to use them since they can do the same work if not better at 1/10 the price. I have had web designers from India design fabulous websites for $100, while American companies wanted $2,000-$3,000. And as far as programming it's pretty much the same, I have had excellent database applications created by groups out of India for far cheaper than what it would ahve cost to hire someone state side.

[glitch]

42. I am sure you will love the price of slave labor you can get from Chinese prisons. :( nt

[Sanctified]

56. Comparing India ot a Chinese prison is hardly fair.

India has worked hard to become a dominant force in the technology market place. If American companies want to compete with their Asian counterparts they are going to have to be able to do it at a similar cost, it's not just Americans who are buying from these companies but the entire world. Bitching about the cost of employing a person out of India is exactly like bitching about the price of a Japanese car 40 years ago.

[OzarkDem]

67. Hope you don't mind

when your job gets sent to India, or your business loses out to competition from foreign based businesses. It will always catch up with you.

[Sanctified]

80. Already happened.

I lost my job to some person in India in 1999, me crying over the loss of the job would have been like some farm hand in 1793 crying about losing his job to the Cotton Gin.

[Greyhound]

78. ...and what has happened to the auto industry since then?

Indians have a lower standard of living, far lower cost of living and their education is paid. I'd like to know what industry you are in and how you could compete with other countries with the same disadvantages.

Typical short-sighted Amerikan business attitude.

[Sanctified]

79. Same thing you just said about India was said about Japan in the 60s.

All the cheap crap came from Japan which later increased their standard of living to that of the Western World. You can't expect to keep 3rd world nations in poverty just because it saves American jobs.

[Greyhound]

96. I see that you didn't answer either question, but chose instead to deflect

it with hyperbole, interesting. Now who else is it that uses these tactics to evade uncomfortable topics?

[Sanctified]

98. Detroit is dead, the American auto industry can't hold a candle to their foreign counterparts.

The only thing the American auto industry is any good at is building gas guzzling SUVs and trucks, Japan brought us the Hybrid. How is that for progress, if we would have not imported Japanese vehicles in the 60s chances are we would still be driving shit that got 22 mpg.

Like it or not that is called progress, yes a bunch of people in Detroit lost their jobs but the end results are worth it.

[Clark2008]

118. Dead?

:rofl:

I wouldn't buy a piece of shit Japanese car for love nor money.

They cost more, break down as much (if not more) and cost more to fix.

Detroit, Michigan may be "dead," but Tennessee, South Carolina and Georgia aren't.

[0rganism]

109. but he brings up an excellent point, close to the core of the issue

Because we are accustomed to a different standard of living, because Indians are willing to do comparable work for an order of magnitude less in cost, because the trade barriers came crashing down like a house of cards in the '90s, we will see white-collar offshoring and we will see it for a long time to come, until our wages equalize with the rest of the planet. And it's not like the Indians are off the hook, in fact they're just next in line for it. The same guys who are providing scripted tech support under assumed names to Americans now will be trying to explain the next generation of tech problems to someone in Chongqing. And so it will go, on and on until the wages of the working world have leveled out near the lowest common denominator, so as to send the profits of the capitalist investor class through the roof.

[Greyhound]

117. Exactly, the race to the bottom. It only serves the ruling class, and results

in world-wide serfdom, which has always been the intent. Trading the future of your children for cheaper toys is simply despicable.

How have you been? missed you Saturday.

[0rganism]

123. the vindication of Karl Marx

For a long time, people in this country were able to laugh his ideas away, but with the dissolution of America's "strong middle class", a whole lot of the petty bourgeoisie around here are going to start feeling a sudden kinship with the global proletariat.

I've been kind of out of the main loop lately. Looking for work has been a major time sink and a lack thereof means a lot less money for social activities. I'll probably be at the September meet-up, though.

How are things going on your side of Portland?

[glitch]

81. Now why on earth would you complain about fairness? Shouldn't you be more ruthless "MiltonF"? nt

[high density]

50. Why not outsource your own position to India?

I'm sure that "better at 1/10 the price" (as you say) is not limited to web design work.

Or better yet, just stay and take a 90% pay cut.

[Sanctified]

57. My position was outsourced in 1999, was not a big deal really.

[LongTomH]

62. I lost my programmer/analyst job and..................

one of my friends back at the old company suggested I apply to the American division of TaTa, the Indian company that's doing the off-shoring for the old company. I wouldn't consider it.

Not that, I'm especially noble. As an American, I probably wouldn't have had a chance; but, there have to be some limits on what you'll do, even to survive.

[Deja Q]

86. Yeah, but what's the cost of living in India vs cost of living in the US?

Maybe there's a reason why Indians can do it for $100 and Americans can't.

And that factor has to come down too if America is to become viable in the 'global workplace' again.

So why isn't Corporate America doing that?

Or maybe they are and we don't know about it?

I wouldn't mind doing website development for $100. If the cost of living matched. It does in India. It can not, currently, in the US.

[Morereason]

103. Well there are plenty of people who will work your job for $5 an hour in China too

Sorry, you are incredibly short sighted.

If folks had that attitude 50 years ago you would be working for $3 an hour. There are 2 BILLION people in the world working for less than $200 a month! Economics says that if we all believe as you do **we all** end up making $250 a month. Think about it.

[Sanctified]

107. Someone in India did take my $15.00 an hour IT job in 1999.

And they probably took it for $15.00 a day, I moved on and up. The people who are short sighted are those who do not realize they can be replaced at any minute, whether it be from someone local willing to work for less or someone abroad.

Interesting fact about the 2 billion people working for less than $200 a month, I would be interested in seeing what the average education level is, in American standards, for those 2 billion people.

[Morereason]

108. I don't have much respect for social darwinists.

Good for you. You made it OK. But others have not. Some of them smarter than you even.

[Sanctified]

110. I will admit that I am not the brightest bulb in the pack

but damn if someone is smarter than me and can't figure out how to make money in todays IT environment I would like to speak with them because I have a whole list of ways for them to make money.

[Morereason]

111. Illuminate us please. You have an entire thread of people interested

If it is so simple... and you really care, why don't you hire some Americans and teach them. Wouldn't that be more humanitarian than sitting in the background suggesting that they are essentially not as resourceful as you and shouldn't gripe?

I would go along with your thoughts, if only we actually had accessable retraining in this country and worked to get people back on track. But as we don't, your darwinian ideals seem a little less than thoughtful, at least in a forum such as this.

[Sanctified]

112. Depending on their skill and where they live...

someone can easily make $150 a day at www.onforce.com. Or for $500 a month they can take out a yellow page ad and make $5,000 a month depending on where they live. It's extremely cheap to start your own consulting business and use India to supply cheap services for your customer.

[Kip Humphrey]

43. Yup. My IT B.S. & M.S. are good for nothing... Unles I were to move to India, Indonesia, or China,.

[Deja Q]

85. Did you find out what their immigration policies are like?

Or are they tending to their own populations over any immigrants, which makes sense?

Smoke while you can before they ban cigarettes.

[Greyhound]

97. I'm willing to sell mine cheap...

hardly used and still has that "new diploma smell" - $500 and take over payments. 555-1234 ask for Greyhound.

[newportdadde]

61. Yes they are vanishing unless your around 20 or 22. No hires here in 8 years.

There are so many onshore here I'm starting to feel like I'm actually over in India myself.

Anyone leaving is replaced by either an onshore or offshore programmer or combination, example, we had 4 people leave our group they were replaced my myself an onshore guy and two offshore guys. These very complex systems take years and years to learn and we are not bringing up any newbies to pair up with the experience analysts we are just a few years from retirement, almost all in their late 50s.

Its not code that you need to learn from others, its the business process, why and how we do things, that is what onshore/offshore lacks. That and a commitment not to their contracting company like ta-ta or infosys but the actual BUSINESS.

Consequently it makes all of our jobs harder, those that are left because there is no longer a go to person who can bust an answer off the top of their head. Basically nobody knows how the hell anything works anymore.

I work closely with an onshore person, real nice guy, 24. Problem here is that he is getting all the experience and has no intention of staying here more then a year or so, long enough to rack up a good savings and then go home and get married, taking the knowledge with him. I want someone who is going to make a career at it here, sink down some roots etc.

Of course the business areas of the company are completely immune to this.

[undeterred]

66. Depends on the industry and the part of the country.

IT is not bad in Milwaukee right now.

[bleedingheart]

68. Some are outsourced...many jobs are returning as outsourcing isn't paying off

[Xithras]

69. And now for the opinion of an IT business owner and CompSci prof

The answer is generally no. What are vanishng are the minimal skill "codemonkey" jobs (so named because any monkey that understands C++ can do them). While they do tend to pay decently, those have always been at the lower end of the pay and esteem scale in IT. Why? Because there really isn't all that much to the jobs, and just about anyone can be taught to do them. When you get right down to it, learning C++ or Java isn't really all that different from learning French or Russian. You're learning to speak the language of the computer. For quite a while, speaking the language of the computer was enough to get you a decent career. Those jobs do remain and will always be here, but they aren't as common and will always be competetive (if you want one, you'd better figure out a way to set yourself apart from the crowd).

While a signifigant number of R&D and higher end development jobs were outsourced over the past half decade, that outsourcing is screeching to a halt for a variety of economic reasons (skilled foreign programmers are now demanding near-US pay scales, and the decline of the dollar has made purchasing foreign labor substantially more expensive). These higher end positions, which tend to focus more on software architecture design and the development of new technologies, require substantially more skill but pay substantially more money. Some may filter overseas, but most aren't going anywhere (most companies don't want their major software R&D occurring overseas in nations with questionable IP laws).

There will always be good paying IT jobs in the US. Computers aren't going anywhere, and even companies that have embraced outsourcing generally keep a few Americans around for those problems that Bangalore just can't fix. Heck, TaTa Group is opening offices in the US and is hiring Americans to work HERE for just that reason. I doubt we will ever again see IT jobs in the numbers we experienced during the boom, but those who want the jobs will always be able to find them. When you hear people complain that there are "no IT jobs", it's generally a localized thing. There are stable, long term IT jobs available for those willing to go where they're located. Some areas are IT centers, others aren't. If you live in an area with a dearth of IT jobs, you're not going to find anything. Here in the greater SF Bay Area, we literally have companies sniping good programmers from each other again. It's not on the level of the boom, but the tech industry is doing fairly well as a whole...and both job availability and pay scales are pretty good for skilled, experienced developers.

[lovuian]

72. A new graduate in MIS I know is working after graduation

and was offered 2 jobs before he graduated
he was interviewed by Microsoft but alas they didn't hire him
Probably Mr Gates wanted outsourcing instead


I was appalled at how few MIS graduates were in his class

He smiled and he said most everybody else went into finance
with the Mortgage business and Stock market having trouble

they may have picked wrong

Every company has computers and from what I see graduating in America

IT is going to have a severe shortage because of this outsourcing fiasco

[aikoaiko]

88. Everyone needs to read this post.

The truth is complicated, but its definitely not worth "the sky is falling".

[Progressive_In_NC]

91. For example on the specialized thing....

Title: SAP MM/PM Senior Analyst/Configuration Skills: SAP Implementation;SAP;Team Lead;SAP MM;SAP PM (Plant Maintenance);SAP R/3 4.7;Requirements Analysis;Functional Spec Documentation;MS Project;Configuration Date: 8-3-2007 Location: New Hill, NC Area code: 919 Tax term: FULLTIME Pay rate: $100,000 to $110,000 Length: Position ID: PRTP746833 Dice ID: matrixga


Title: CICS Systems Programmer (sr. level, to $100Ks) Skills: cics systems programmer, MQ Date: 8-4-2007 Location: Raleigh, NC Area code: 919 Tax term: FULLTIME Pay rate: $90Ks to $110K+ Length: Position ID: D0296-NCCI Dice ID: 10115382

Title: Microsoft Software Architect. Skills: Architect;.NET;C#;SQL Server;OO Methodology;Design Patterns Date: 8-3-2007 Location: Morrisville, NC Area code: 919 Tax term: FULLTIME Pay rate: $80,000 to $95,000 Length: Position ID: PRTP950434 Dice ID: matrixga

Title: SAP PS Business Analyst US CITIZEN REQUIRED Skills: SAP PS / Business Analyst Date: 8-1-2007 Location: Durham, NC Area code: 919 Tax term: CON_CORP CON_IND CON_W2 Pay rate: DOE Length: Position ID: 002 Dice ID: 10116364

[Morereason]

104. Imagine this conversation when Ford was building the middle class????

Yeah, sure, we are farming out the "Monkeywrench" positions that build the cars to Mexico, we'll keep the high level engineers. Watch how the 40s and 50's would have looked then? My friend.. How in the world can a professor have such blinders on! We are giving away the farm! This was the next middle class opportunity.

Amazing how we ever built IT in this country in the first case.. all those unskilled grunts. Might as well shoot them now that they have done their job.

[Xithras]

120. IT was never the opportunity it was made out to be.

That was a con pushed by the off-shoring marketroids when they were attacking manufacturing. There is not, and never has been, enough of a market for computer software to support a large percentage of our population. What? Were we all supposed to sit around writing code for each other? Not very realistic. As I said in my previous post, learning Java is really no different than learning French...you're simply learning a new language and method of communication. There will always be jobs for French speakers in the US...as foreign journalists, as translators, and as teachers. Could we build a middle class economy based on speaking French? No...as far as skills go, it's a relatively simple one to acquire and we only need so many to accomplish the types of jobs we need. C++ and Java are no different. There will always be jobs for programmers here. There will always bee a need for good American IT people who can do everything from fix computers, to answer phones, or to write software. But you CANNOT build an entire economy on that.

And all of those "unskilled grunts" didn't build IT in this country. If you look at the evolution of technology in this nation, and the companies that drove it, you'll find that most of our technological innovation has sprouted from only a few technology centers and a fairly small number of people. The boom during the 90's massively expanded the employment base but, as has been repeated ad nauseum, that is typically seen as a fluke today. Those numbers were never sustainable (as the many now defunct dot-com companies and brokerages can attest to).

As has been repeated many times elsewhere, another big problem with low end IT job stability is the march of technology itself. Seven years ago a codemonkey with good C++ skills still had a reasonable chance of getting a decent job. Today C++ is passe, and the demand is for C# and Java. People who envisioned these jobs being the next stable long term 9-5 job forgot (or willfully ignored) the most basic rule of modern technology...any skill you acquire today will be worthless in 10 years. It's a field that requires constant retraining and learning. Moreover, there's always the danger that the technology itself will put you out of a job. The purpose of technology is to promote efficiency, and quite often that means replacing people with computers. Data centers that required 5-10 employees to manage in 1998 can now be run with 2, thanks to improved management and reporting tools. Outsourcing had nothing to do with that.

And just to throw an even bigger chill over the whole industry, there are developers working today on automated coding systems to eliminate low end programmers entirely. You input your requirements into the AI, and it automatically generates the required software for you. I have my doubts as to the long term efficacy of a program like that, and the demonstration systems have been primitive so far, but who knows where we'll be in 10 years? A computerized programmer would put my company out of business, make the classes I teach pointless, and probably put me into the unemployment line. Do I grouse about it? No...I work with technology every day, and fully understand that the software I write and the students I teach may one day make me redundant. It sucks, but it brings up the second basic rule of modern technology...nothing is sacred.

How in the world can a professor have such blinders on!

For what it's worth, I actually don't support outsourcing and I believe that we should economically punish companies that engage in it. My post isn't about my personal beliefs though...this is about the state of technology and the IT job market as it exists TODAY. When my students come to me and ask me for my outlook on their futures, I don't tell them what they want to hear or what I want them to accomplish, I tell them where the demand is, where it's expected to go, and what hurdles they will face. I give them reality, not activism. That's my job. In this post, I have simply tried to do the same thing. I'm not advocating outsourcing, I'm just describing its realities.

[Greyhound]

70. We've been hemorrhaging these positions for almost a decade

and like any gun-shot victim the bleeding does slow down as there is only so much blood.

Two cases to consider, a friend that is a recruiter for a temp agency tells me that she typically gets 80 - 100 applications the first day she places an ad for any IT positions, 70% - 80% of all IT job advertisements are designed specifically to disqualify any candidates so that the employer can meet the requirements to import their own IT slave from another country. (we had a video of one of these seminars up here about a month ago)

[hack89]

74. Depends ...

Very high demand for programmers with security clearances. Additionally, few company are willing to outsource network and information security jobs.

What really killed IT careers is increased automation and the ability to control large networks remotely. I work for a large corporation that has significantly cut its IT force. No jobs were outsource, it was simply that a very small group of people can now operate large global networks from a central location. It was all the local IT jobs that disappeared.

[porphyrian]

82. They sure pay a lot less now than five or ten years ago if not. - n/t

[Progressive_In_NC]

89. If you are specialized and willing to travel the 150K a year jobs are there

Know SAP? Seibel? Websphere? Biztalk? Sharepoint 2007? JD Edwards? Willing to travel on a plane every Monday morning and come back on Thursday night?

You can make a killing at MSFT, Accenture, Avanade, etc. etc. right now. If you want a job at home, driving a short time to work and having an actual life, then prepare to pull down about 50-60K plus benefits for all that schooling.

Go figure.

[Morereason]

105. Only if you have 5+ years of the EXACT experience

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CreekDog]

92. livesipog: are you for real?

You seem to have a problem with immigrants (in this case a legal one).

Might want to simmer down now.

[Dastard Stepchild]

93. In my area, yes...

Though I understand that other regions are not so bad. We're stuck here for a few years more, though, so my husband gave up looking for those jobs about 7 years ago.

[Sapphocrat]

99. Yes. n/t

[barb162]

100. Yes, it's terrible

I know plenty of IT people who have lost their jobs
Read a site called
noslaves.com

[spindoctor]

113. Come to Europe

After being outsourced twice in a year's time I moved (back) to Europe.
Here they are mostly done with outsourcing. Quality issues, cultural differences and the infamous 4th shift have led companies to look closer to home for qualified staff.
Right now the IT market is booming again. The only reason companies are even considering hiring people from low(er) wage countries is the supply shortage. They turn to East European countries like Romania, Hungary and the Czech Republic. Asian countries appear to have fallen from grace.

They are now talking about making it easier for knowledge workers to come to the EU and introducing the "blue card" which is modeled after the green card and will allow immigrants to work in any European state without the hassle of having to apply for new permits every time.

[Greyhound]

125. This is fascinating, I'd go in a heartbeat, but the last time I looked it

was nearly impossible to move there unless you had @ least $500,000 in the bank, and even then it takes months to get in.

If they're going to make it easier, I'd love to escape this.

[Skidmore]

115. Remember how they promised with NAFTA that Americans would

only be doing the jobs that required thinking not actual physical labor or anything dirty-like? Remember that free-trader, supply-side bullshit put out by a Republic Congress and Clinton and Robert Reich and fertilized by Greenspan?

Now think about how we've become a nation of WallyWorld employees, wait staff, and McMarketers. We don't manufacture anything, just consume. Consuming is your job. They pay you just enough to consume more poorly made cheap product.

Now why the hell do we need to go back to picking any political representatives or a president that would support that type of national Hale-Bopping?

[OhioChick]

121. Yes....

Pay cut after pay cut, just to keep what I have.

[Lance_Boyle]

124. depends on your field within IT

Programming? Forget it. Or learn Hindi.

System/Network administration is less easily outsourced. Yes, we're the plumbers of IT, but by and large we're still employed. ;-)