RICE: "You're Behind Counter Because You Have To Work For Mininimum Wage-I'm On This Side Because.."

[kpete]

In the book, Rice's best friend, Stanford University's Prof. Coit Blacker, relates what happened when she went to buy jewelry and the saleswoman brought her cheap earrings from the display: "Let's get one thing straight," Rice told the sales clerk, "You're behind the counter because you have to work for the minimum wage. I'm on this side because I make considerably more." The store manager quickly brought her the expensive earrings. The lesson of the story is clear: The secretary of state knows how to get what she wants, by force if necessary.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/889312.html

[Clark2008]

1. And, for minimum wage, I'd have taken the cheap earrings

and thrown them at her.

I could always find another minimum wage job.

[Octafish]

146. Condescenda

The way she sees it, there aren't many people above her.

Here's what she told We the People during her September 11 Commission testimony:

BEN-VENISTE: Did you tell the president, at any time prior to August 6, of the existence of al Qaeda cells in the United States?

RICE: First, let me just make certain...

BEN-VENISTE: If you could just answer that question, because I only have a very limited...

RICE: I understand, Commissioner, but it's important...

BEN-VENISTE: Did you tell the president...

RICE: ... that I also address...

It's also important that, Commissioner, that I address the other issues that you have raised. So I will do it quickly, but if you'll just give me a moment.

BEN-VENISTE: Well, my only question to you is whether you...

RICE: I understand, Commissioner, but I will...

BEN-VENISTE: ... told the president.

RICE: If you'll just give me a moment, I will address fully the questions that you've asked.

First of all, yes, the August 6 PDB was in response to questions of the president -- and that since he asked that this be done. It was not a particular threat report. And there was historical information in there about various aspects of al Qaeda's operations.

Dick Clarke had told me, I think in a memorandum -- I remember it as being only a line or two -- that there were al Qaeda cells in the United States.

Now, the question is, what did we need to do about that?

And I also understood that that was what the FBI was doing, that the FBI was pursuing these al Qaeda cells. I believe in the August 6 memorandum it says that there were 70 full field investigations under way of these cells. And so there was no recommendation that we do something about this; the FBI was pursuing it. I really don't remember, Commissioner, whether I discussed this with the president.

BEN-VENISTE: Thank you.

RICE: I remember very well that the president was aware that there were issues inside the United States. He talked to people about this. But I don't remember the al Qaeda cells as being something that we were told we needed to do something about.

BEN-VENISTE: Isn't it a fact, Dr. Rice, that the August 6 PDB warned against possible attacks in this country? And I ask you whether you recall the title of that PDB?

RICE: I believe the title was, "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside the United States."

Now, the...

BEN-VENISTE: Thank you.

RICE: No, Mr. Ben-Veniste...

BEN-VENISTE: I will get into the...

RICE: I would like to finish my point here.

BEN-VENISTE: I didn't know there was a point.

RICE: Given that -- you asked me whether or not it warned of attacks.

BEN-VENISTE: I asked you what the title was.

RICE: You said, did it not warn of attacks. It did not warn of attacks inside the United States. It was historical information based on old reporting. There was no new threat information. And it did not, in fact, warn of any coming attacks inside the United States.

SOURCE: http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/08/rice.transcript/

[NJCher]

180. may not have been minimum wage

I don't doubt that it happened and I don't care if there was any racism there. One still doesn't talk about how much one makes. This falls under the general heading of "manners" and from what I understand of Rice's upbringing, she would have been taught this by her family.

The statement is just stupid. The woman is not on the other side of the counter because she works for minimum wage. She is on the other side of the counter because that's the job she chose and maybe that's what it pays. It may pay higher: I know jewelry salespeople who make good money because they work on commission--and this is at department stores.

Rice is an idiot; a stooge who has gotten where she is because of her lack of principles, not because she's anything special.



Cher

[AndyA]

2. I didn't think my opinion of Rice could go any lower, but it did.

She's elevated herself to a status that can only be described by words I won't use here, because some think they're inappropriate and demeaning to women, but the words I'm thinking of do adequately describe the woman.

[tblue37]

21. I am reminded of Barbara Bush's condescending comments

about the situation working out well for the people from New Orleans who has been bused to Houston.

People like Rice, the Bushes, and their innumerable hangers-on are like the aristocrats in France whose over-the-top behavior led to the French Revolution.

[AndyA]

77. Yep - from up on the balcony at the Plantation, all the little people

down below toiling and hard at work is a sight mighty pleasing to Miss Barbara, Miss Laura, and the rest of the holier than thous.

The entire family is an American disgrace.

[peacetalksforall]

172. It is amazing that we have a second shopping story to judge her by.

She is either very unlucky to have stories that stand out appear in print or it's lucky that we know what she's all about - Ms. 'Can't remember' and ' No one would have ever thought that they would fly planes ...' is a real NON-GEM who enables her Party to keep her people on the right side of the counter and others dead or heading to the wrong side of the counter..

Maybe we should just keep thinking classical pianist and doctorate to try to appreciate her accomplishments in this lifetime.

[TheDebbieDee]

185. Well, then, I'll throw a word out.........

She's Cuntileezza.........

It's a word that is only demeaning to women named Condileezza.

[Amonester]

3. Marie-Antoinette couldn't have said it better herself. - eom

[PurpleChez]

160. Marie-Antoinette was more clueless than evil.

C***doleeza is just plain ol' evil. She got evil on her like rice got white.

[LaPera]

4. Rice: Always a caring lovely sympathetic sweetheart, no ego, pretension or any elitist smugness

by this selfish, greedy, lying, hateful republican pig!

[underpants]

5. Condescending, belittling, AND appaulling

Another trifecta for Condi.

Now if she could only find and keep a man she would be set.

[Supersedeas]

15. who better to represent the Frat Boy to the rest of the world?

[HeeBGBz]

97. Condi Sending, lol. n/t

[pokercat999]

159. She has someone that pretends to be a man but is just

a little boy in a mans body. GWB her office husband.

[hfojvt]

6. I'd be very tempted to kick her out of my store

but probably wouldn't. We take alot of crap from customers because we need their money. But Rice-cakes oughta know there are plenty of people on the other side of the counter who make minimum wage too. In fact, my store, a new and used bookstore, catered to them.

[Cleita]

181. Also, my way of looking at it, is customers like her aren't

worth the bother of getting upset over. I give them what they want and then make sure they pay for it. I don't bother with little extra services or deals I might have given a nicer customer though.

[Fresh_Start]

7. Barbara Bush move over - The new Queen B-tch is ready

to take over your role.

[aquart]

8. Only trash talks like that.

A lady would never publicly denigrate another human being.

You say this was written by her best friend? And this is the best he could say about her?

[Elspeth]

9. I tend to agree with you. A well brought up person does not speak to shop personnel that way.

It makes you wonder about all the neocons and where they come from. Poseurs, mostly, is my guess.

[Richard Steele]

18. "Trash" is an excellent description for anyone who exibits such behavior. nm

[fishwax]

41. .

[malaise]

136. Condi has always been trash

No surprise here.

[PurpleChez]

161. Lady, schmady...my four-year-old daughter wouldn't treat a clerk like that.

She knows better. No surprise that an administration of dickheads could include such a total twat.

[NashVegas]

10. There's a Maddie Albright Story I Loved

'When Robin Cook, the British foreign secretary, told Secretary of State Madeleine Albright that he had "problems with our lawyers" over using force against Yugoslavia without Security Council approval, Secretary Albright responded: "Get new lawyers." '

Does Condi have the brass tacks to show this shit to someone at her own political/social/economic level? That is the question.

[Elspeth]

11. On second thought: maybe she thought the shop person was making assumptions based on race

That because the customer (Condi) was black that she could only afford cheap earrings. In that case, I can understand the anger if not the action.

[wryter2000]

20. That's what I thought, too

I'm no great lover of Condi Rice, but I imagine that many African Americans would suspect the clerk was assuming she couldn't afford good jewelry because she was black. If that's what happened, she could have put it better, but she was right to be angry.

[glitch]

22. I thought that too, but she still could have handled it with much better manners.

Using better manners to correct the possibly (let's face it, likely) racism would have increased her position, instead she just diminished it. Comes from hanging out with bushies I suppose.

It is too bad, the counter person probably was a racist snob and if so did deserve to be corrected.

Condi blew it by going down to the same level as the counter person.

[Elspeth]

27. Not to defend this war criminal, but Condi as a black woman has probably had a lot of that

In some department stores, clerks keep a special eye on you if you are black, and all kinds of assumptions are made about what you are doing in the store and what you can afford. It would get me mad to live under that kind of constant surveillance and suspicion for no reason, and I might explode at someone if it got bad enough.

[glitch]

48. Absolutely. But exploding doesn't win you karma points. :) Condi could have looked good here,

Instead she just kept the episode at the same tacky level as it began. Trading racist for classist is no improvement.

[Elspeth]

95. Sometimes, it's hard to be polite and bite your tongue when you are the target of racist assumptions

We all have our bad days. The problem is that Condi grew up wealthy and was probably insulted at being compared to poorer folk.

[Bake]

101. Why automatically throw the race card?

I would not look for any reason to defend Kindasleezy. EVEN IF the situation were what you surmise, there was a better way to respond. I've seen people in Mississippi handle similar situations with a lot more class AND make their point about racial profiling.

Defending Sleezy is no virtue.

Bake

[goodgd_yall]

113. Walk a mile in an African-American's shoes.

Maybe black southern American's are polite because of the fear for their lives they've had for generations in the South. After all, remember Emmett Till? He was from the North, talked sassy and was murdered.

[Elspeth]

116. Have you ever had people consistently make cruel judgements about you just on your appearance?

I have, and even when people do it in a veiled way, it is obvious what they mean. The black woman shopping in an expensive store always runs the risk of condescending or suspicious treatment. And it's not a "card", like we're making some kind of play in poker or other card game. It is a constant reality.

[rucognizant]

183. Yes Indeed!

It's happening to the older poor whites too!
After a lifetime of traveling in wealthy elite circles, BEING considered an equal , by breeding talent, intelligence, if not income or external trappings OR that DEGREE! ( I DO SPEAK THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE BETTER THAN MOST " current" DEGREED PEOPLE ( I Learned it at home from my family!)....................
I am now excluded by virtue of my SS income, ( including lack of funds for botox!) I would rate my value system on a scale of 1 -10 at a 10. Financial success, now requires a lack of values!
Sad.....................

[peacetalksforall]

173. If she was at Stanford she already had many years to

experience race and did not have to inject superiority and put-down into her answer. On the other hand, maybe she was having a bad race assumption day.

It's very easy to assume the worst because of what we've observed about her. She hasn't shown us all the sweetness and brilliance others claim she has.

[glitch]

104. Not saying bite your tongue, just saying don't fight racism with classism.

Better ways to fight it. You can even fight it angrily if you want, just leave out the putting someone down for their job part. You don't have to sink to their level, which is what Condi did.

That is assuming racism is what caused the clerk to show her the cheaper stuff. If racism isn't what caused the clerk to show Condi the cheaper stuff then Condi is left being the only tacky member in the exchange.

[goodgd_yall]

115. Rice could reasonably assume it was race

if the salesperson was white. One needs to respond to racism, even if the response is not perfect.

[brentspeak]

118. Ok, let's say the salesperson was white

That would automatically mean he/she was a racist?

[goodgd_yall]

120. It's a reasonable assumption based on her action

The assumption could be wrong, but, I'm not coming down on someone who has had through her life put up with racism who reacts to perceived racism.

[Tsiyu]

177. It may seem reasonable

unless you've spent any time trying to "serve" her class.

They all act like that: white, black, Arab, Hispanic.

IF they are "new" money and Republican, they love to rub it in your face that they are better than you are. I believe they understand better than the Common Person how great is the disparity between the Working Class and their own living-well-doing-nothing-but-kissing-corrupt-ass Parasite Class, and it causes them intense guilt or shame or something.

So they respond with these little bursts of self-aggrandizement.

You submit. They are settled in their spirits that you agree you are lower than they are and then they calm down.

If you don't, they make your life a living hell.

It is a class, not a race thing. The color of indignity is green...

I have seen many people cry privately over the way they were treated by known "new money" Republicans.

My 2 pennies.....

[rateyes]

150. Good grief....perhaps it wasn't racism...perhaps it was

classism. After all, Condi always dresses like she is shit poor. :sarcasm:

[Jade Fox]

141. But if Rice felt she was the target of racist assumptions...

why was her response to tout her own financial status (and therefore class) and put down the clerk's income/class?

[cpamomfromtexas]

171. Why exactly was she in a store that sold cheap earrings if this was so important?

[Hosnon]

32. That's my take on what happened.

Once again, DU should consider what the response would be if this were some average black woman and not Condi Rice.

The outrage would probably have been directed at the clerk. And it would probably be well placed.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

43. Not buying that.

And how do we know what race the salesperson was?

Either way, Rice was rude. Figures.

[Hosnon]

44. True.

However, racism doesn't have to be among two different races. And, yes, Rice's comment was rude. But I still maintain that the contents of this thread would be significantly different if she wasn't the black female involved.

[gort]

61. as Justice Thurgood Marshall once said

"there's no difference between a white snake and a black snake. They'll both bite...."

[YOY]

49. This isn't some well to do Jack-and-Jill woman, this is a political figure

She is also a public servant. A slight bit of respect to the working class is in order.

[1monster]

51. Or, Condi didn't make it clear which earrings she wanted to see and perceived

racism where there was none.

I know that many times when I have asked to see something in a display case, quite a lot of descriptive direction is needed for the clerk to lite on the correct item if say there are several different items of the same kind in the case.

Even had the clerk been showing racism, Rick could have handled it with grace rather than condensention.

But then, I'm not sure she's capable of grace.

(Just for the record, I have seen racism, both overt and covert. I know it is out there. But I've also seen people totally innocent of racist behavior be accused of racism.

Since we were not given the whole picture, we can't judge whether or not there was racist behavior or intent on the part of the sales person. We don't even know if the sales person was a different race than Rice. All we know is that Rice behaved with a lack of grace and class.

[Jade Fox]

140. Then why the crack about minimum wage?

Rice's response to the situation seems to have been confined to touting her superior income/class. That strikes me as a very odd response to perceived or real racism.

[PurpleChez]

162. I doubt it

I work in a hardware store, and in that setting you would learn very quickly that the Black man in grubby overalls might easily spend a few hundred times more than the White dude in the tie who bought two washers a moment before. We can only assume that Condi was dressed to the nines, hair done up, etc., and was in an upscale store (not Bubba's Jewelry Barn in Tuscaloosa. Doesn't mean that the clerk wasn't a bigot or just plain stupid, but I find it unlikely that she condi-scended to her just because she was Black.

[cureautismnow]

12. Aah... The Queen of Diplomacy.

Is it any wonder that the whole world hates us?

[soleft]

13. Could her remark have been knee reaction to perceived rascism

Don't you dare flame me, because I am the last person who wants to defend this woman, who I believe is one of the top 5 people to blame for 9/11.

But if the context was that Rice thought the clerk was bringing cheap jewelry because she was African American and assumed she couldn't afford better, I could see might say something like this.

[Fresh_Start]

26. You a mind reader?

Probably not.
Neither is Rice.

The correct response is to say, that you are shopping for quality jewelry.

[Hosnon]

28. Racism can be picked up on through channels other than "mind reading". NT.

[Elspeth]

37. Yes it can. And department stores often make assumptions about black customers

Black female customers looking at the jewelry counter may be considered as potential shoplifters in some places. It is discrimination.

Perhaps Condi had a lot of that.

[Hosnon]

38. I agree. As I said elsewhere in this thread,

if this story was about an average black woman, the DU reaction would most likely be quite different.

[Elspeth]

94. It would. But the problem is that Condi has such a track record of lying for this administration

Covering all their sins.

[soleft]

33. I didn't say it was an appropriate response

[goodgd_yall]

117. You a member of a historically oppressed group? n/t

[Fresh_Start]

166. yes.

However, I'm more likely to be mistreated by a-holes who mistreat everyone around them (that can't do them favors) then I am likely to be the victim of someone clueless about overt bigotry.

[Elspeth]

34. You're not alone in thinking that (see above) so no flames

....

[iamjoy]

36. That's No Excuse

Unless you have cause to believe that (such as overhearing a comment), you do not assume the person is racist. As for emotions, I would expect a woman such as Rice to rise above that and be polite even if upset - after all she is a diplomat.

And there are classy ways to handle perceived racism.

[JI7]

153. her response could be considered polite

of course you can assume someone is racist without actually hearing a comment. black men don't need to hear the taxi driver make a racist comment to know that is the reason they are being passed up. when one deals with racism their entire lives you just know sometimes.

[rateyes]

148. She's the gdammed Secretary of State! Good freaking

grief. Bringing her cheap earrings because the clerk assumed she couldn't afford them because she was black? She's the gdammed Secretary of State! And, even if the clerk didn't know that, the way Rice ALWAYS DRESSES in the most expensive of everything????

The ONLY one to blame here is Rice. She gets no quarter from me. There is NO excuse for this kind of behavior from the GDAMMED SECRETARY OF STATE. NONE.

[cgrindley]

158. that's the problem

inexpensive doesn't necessarily mean ugly. the clerk might have been pointing her towards something that was quite nice. in my experience, throwing money at jewelry often makes it uglier.

[NOLALady]

165. It could have been knee jerk

reaction. I've been in similar situations. It took every ounce of control to NOT lash out.

[nini]

14. This sounds like the old saying one is assertive but they're just a downright bitch

You don't have to be insulting to be assertive.. sleezy has obviously confused being a strong woman with being a total bitch from hell.

[KingFlorez]

16. She just made herself look like an idiot

Being rude to a sales clerk doesn't make you tough, it makes you a fool.

[ThomCat]

17. Let's not jump on her yet.

It's very likely that she thought race played a part in why she was shown the cheap stuff. If racist expectations were involved, I would have been pissed too.

I don't like or respect Rice. I think she's an untalented, unqualified hack who is in over her head. But I won't criticize her for reacting to perceived racism.

[Fresh_Start]

24. No excuse for her to treat a clerk like that

None.

She can't read the person behind the counter's mind enough to know she's being racist.
She doesn't know the owners rules about how to handle customers or whether the salesperson was told to move the sale merchandise.

No excuse.

[ThomCat]

30. Bullshit. If someone's treating me poorly because I'm

disabled, I'm going to have an attitude about it. If someone's treating me poorly because I'm gay, I'm going to have an attitude about it.

If the only acceptable response to perceived bigotry is to smile and put up with it then the bigots always win. Maybe you would handle perceived bigotry differently, or maybe your standards change based on who it's happening too. Regardless, even though she was tactless and rude, it could very well have been in response to someone equally tactless and rude who was acting on prejudice.

There's no excuse for racism. And there's no excuse for ignoring the posibility of racism either.

[Giant Robot]

46. I agree there is no excuse for racism

And of course you are going to be angry if people treat you poorly for being disabled, gay, black, jewish, having a mental illness, etc.

But we are talking about her assumption of racism and her response to it, which both I think were inappropriate. Just because someone is tactless and rude as you said, does not mean that it is the right choice to be tactless and rude back to them.

Especially since she did NOT bother, from what information we have, to understand the decision to show her those earrings.

Jumping on people for perceived slights is certainly no way to combat racism either, because good people will be hurt over misunderstandings.

[ThomCat]

53. Prejudice is always just "perceived."

People rarely announce that they are racist, or admit that they are treating you a certain way because of racism. Like it or not, if you face racism then you're frequently going to be asking yourself "Is this because of racism."

Racism is alway a "perceived slight." That doesn't mean that the slight isn't real.

I'm not saying she wasn't rude. I'm saying there may be a legitimate reason for her to have been upset.

[Giant Robot]

63. And we don't know that

And she may not have known that.

I understand she MAY have been subjected to much racism while shopping in her lifetime. I don't doubt that at some point the thought became automatic asking herself "Is this because of racism?" But it looks like she just stopped trying to answer it and assumed.

I never said a perceived slight cannot be real. I just said it was not checked out further. A simple "No thank you I want something with a little more style/class/etc" followed up with a "Why did you pick those to show me first" would have been a way to start to understand. That's all I am saying is try to understand.

Here's another take on the scenario. The owner told the clerk to push the earrings because they are sitting there collecting dust, and the clerk will get a bonus. Clerk wants to make the extra cash so she is pushing the earrings on everyone. Rice comes in, gets same treatment, goes off. Clerk becomes defensive, hurt and confused at this. Rice takes that as a sign that the person is racist and this was meant as a racial comment because of the clerk's reaction, stammering, acting defensive. Rice feels vindicated in her treatment of the clerk. Clerk leaves work with a grudge.

Just as likely and neither scenario did anyone come out ahead.

[Fresh_Start]

70. You cannot assume that every time

you are mistreated by people is due to racism, ageism, sexism, homophobia.....

[ThomCat]

71. You can't assume that it is not either.

Because if you let people get away with prejudice, simply because you keep giving them the benefit of the doubt over and over and over again, then the end result is that it's okay to be prejudiced.

[goodgd_yall]

119. Completely agree with your threads, ThomCat n/t

[Fresh_Start]

69. Wow, you claim to be a mind reader.

You know what other people are thinking at all times.
And you haven't learned how to turn that into a fortune or maybe you're not actually able to read minds?

[fishwax]

86. he didn't claim to be a mind reader

What are you talking about?

[Blue Fire]

182. Agreed.

For kindasleezy to pull the classism act was degrading to her office (not necessarily to she herself, however), and a slap to the face of all minimum wage and barely-living-wage workers who help drive this economy so sleezy's boss can hand out the money these workers pay in taxes to the corporations and wealthy.

[Giant Robot]

40. I disagree

Even if she thought race played a part, and we are just guessing on that, that does not make this behavior appropriate in any way. Being cruel and demeaning, in my mind, was not a fair response to the situation we had presented. Even if it was a racial remark, belittling the clerk certainly was only going to aggravate the situation and make the clerk think more hateful things about other races; it could have been an opportunity to teach the clerk something but that did not happen either.

The store clerk did not call her a lazy bitch and ask her if she was paying for this on welfare money. She brought out cheaper earrings than what Rice wanted. That was it from the story. Clerk took a guess, maybe there was a protocol in the store of what to start out with, maybe they were on sale, maybe the commission on this was double because they were trying to get rid of them.

Obviously there are so many unknowns as to make this story almost impossible to respond to in any meaningful way. I don't know what any of the parties were thinking or the meaning behind their actions. What I do see is that this was someone flying off the handle at an action that could have been anything from innocuous to hateful. It does not look like she bothered to understand that. Which I suspect is indicative of her and this administration as well.

Really if you would verbally beat someone down for PERCEIVED racism, without even bothering to check it out, I am really scared for you. One day you will do that to the wrong person and things will escalate beyond what you wanted to have happen.

[ThomCat]

56. So, nobody is allowed to perceive racism unless it's blatant?

That would make racism acceptable as long as you keep it below some obvious threshold that you approve.

I'm sorry. That's a damned stupid answer.

There are a lot of unknowns here. I agree with you about that. But before people jump on CR as if she was the only rude person there, consider that she was responding to something. And she may have had a very legitimate reason to be upset.

CRs approach certainly wouldn't be an effective way to fight racism, but nobody ever claimed that she has any real interest in civil rights anyway. Whether or not her approach is effective is besides the point. I'm only addressing whether or not she may have had a legitimate reason to be upset.

As for the idea that she would have been perfectly polite, Bull Shit. In the face of prejudice, politeness accomplishes nothing. Politeness is silence, and silence is consent. I challenge prejudice whenever I perceive it too.

[Giant Robot]

64. Wow I'm trying to be civil

So I'm just going to say I disagree with you and feel my response is equally likely.

I never said she had to be silent or polite. I just said she should understand first.

[fishwax]

How do you know she didn't understand?

[Giant Robot]

92. I never said I knew she was right wrong or otherwise

I gave an equally plausible situation based on the information we have. I am saying she could have handled that situation much better, no matter what she understood.

[peacetalksforall]

175. The be-all is that she should have used an 'I' answer, not a 'you' answer.

The classy way to reply would have been to just say - I can afford something more expensive - not to talk about the other person. I, not any you.

[fishwax]

82. I don't understand your assertion that it's inappropriate to be rude in the face of racism

Even if she thought race played a part, and we are just guessing on that, that does not make this behavior appropriate in any way.

We're just guessing on everything. The article gives no details as to the attitude of the clerk prior to Condi's reaction, so we really don't know. It doesn't share anything else that was said, so we really know pretty much nothing about the context of her remark.

I see it as incongruous to, on the one hand, admit that "there are so many unknowns as to make this story almost impossible to respond to in any meaningful way," and then go on to say that Condi few off the handle without bothering to understand whether the remark was innocuous or hateful or something in between. How can you possibly know what Condi understood?

Of course, we'll never know from this account, but it's perfectly plausible that she justifiably perceived racial overtones in the exchange. In such a situation, I wouldn't see a rude response as inappropriate at all.

[Giant Robot]

91. I don't see any incongruity

I think there are too many unknowns in the story for us to make accurate assessments. Given. But even IF Rice perceived racism, I do NOT think flying off the handle is appropriate. Meeting fire with fire is almost never the answer I suggest.

[ThomCat]

96. Being polite in the face of prejudice almost never accomplishes

anything. Politeness is seen as condoning or accepting the prejudice, or "knowing your place."

I will never willingly "know my place" in the face of prejudice.

[Giant Robot]

98. I guess I don't see being calm and polite as

"knowing your place" anymore than I see berating someone as a way to "rise up" as it looks like you do.

[goodgd_yall]

122. Hi, fishwax

:thumbsup:

I like what you're saying.

[fishwax]

132. Hi, goodgd_yall

I like what you're saying.

Back at ya :D :hi:

[Midlodemocrat]

52. Thom, how do we know the clerk wasn't African American?

or Hispanic or Asian?

(admittedly, I didn't read the article, but I think this is terrible way to treat anyone)

[ThomCat]

57. That's irrelevant.

Racism isn't confined to white people. The racism of the dominant class (white men) gets internalized by everyone else who lives in a racist society. It spreads and becomes contagious.

[Midlodemocrat]

73. I don't think it is. As a woman, if I don't perceive someone

as treating me as second class citizen, I certainly wouldn't attack them the way Rice attacked this clerk.

If I believed for a moment that I was not getting the same service as a guy would, I would leave rather than demean myself by sinking to their level.

[ThomCat]

79. Leaving is definitely an option, and would have been less

hostile that CR's response. But I'm not saying she wasn't rude. I'm only saying she may have had (or perceived) a legitimate reason for being upset. How she responded is her choice, and it was definitely hostile. But her reaction wasn't a reaction to nothing.

[Midlodemocrat]

83. I would think that someone in her position would be able

to control their own emotions in dealing with the public. Whatever she experienced, or felt she experienced, she is an accomplished professional. She was provost at Stanford and plays the concert piano.

I remember my mom saying years ago that having class was the ability to be at ease with Kings and Queens as well as sit on the curb and share a sandwich with a drunk.

I guess I will never understand the nasty behavior directed at 'service personnel'. It's kind of a litmus test for me. If I go out to lunch with someone and they are nasty or rude to the waiter, I'm done. It doesn't cost anything to be kind.

[fishwax]

66. that's a good point, ThomCat

That certainly seems like a plausible scenario, and if that were the situation I wouldn't blame her for responding angrily.

We can't really tell for sure from the article what the situation was, of course ... the stated "lesson" of the story--that she knows how to get what she wants, by force if necessary--might suggest that this wasn't the case, but the moral is the article author's, and not necessarily from the original source.

And, of course, such a second-hand interpretation can hardly be considered definitive, as evidenced by the fact that, even when you and other posters point out the possibility of racism playing a part in the exchange, some posters say it doesn't make any substantive difference. :(

Hi ThomCat :hi:

[ThomCat]

81. Hi fishwax!

:hi:

I'm glad someone thinks I have a reasonable point to make. :P

[goodgd_yall]

121. I think you're right on too, ThomCat n/t

[rateyes]

144. Give me a damned break...

Rice is the Secretary of State! Criminy. Racism, my ass.

[ThomCat]

151. What does one have to do with the other?

Did the store clerk even know who she was? Does being SoS make her suddenly not black? I'm not sure what your point is.

[rateyes]

186. Have you ever seen Rice when she's not

dressed to kill? There's no mistaking that she's NOT POOR. This incident shows that Condi is a heartless bitch, and I'd say the same damned thing if she was white, green or purple.

Being black doesn't give one an excuse for being rude.

[ThomCat]

188. You just proved my point.

She always dresses to show off her wealth. So why would any sales clerk immediately bring her the cheap display of jewelry? It was very likely only because she was black.

I don't turn off my brain just because I don't like someone. When a situation is loaded with possible racism I don't immediately jump in and attack the person who was the target of that racism. And, while I agree that she was rude, I have enough empathy to realize that people have a legitimate reason to be angry when they've been the target of racism.

[lefador]

155. An asshole is color blind

Spare me the race card as an excuse. Most clerks are smart enough to know that money is color blind. And who the fuck knows, maybe the clerk was also black. With the amount of self hate displayed by Dr. Rice that wouldn't surprise me.

I am sure that Marie Antoniette had a rough childhood growing up in that ugly palace as a child, that doesn't excuse her callous lack of empathy and minimum respect for human dignity. Ms. Rice's level of skin pigmentation is in no way shape or form an excuse for her petulant retort. And the secretary of state travels every where with a full complement of secret service security. Trust me when someone walks into a store surrounded by body guards the last thing you assume is that they are poor.

[fishwax]

189. where do you get the idea that she was traveling with bodyguards

:shrug:

There's no suggestion that the story comes from when she was secretary of state ...

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Elspeth]

29. No. That word is not ok.

And Condi may have had reason to be angry. I don't like the woman, I consider her part of the war criminal administration, but as a black woman, she has to put up with a lot of crap from department stores who consider black women as suspicious customers and possibly potential shoplifters.

[ThomCat]

59. No. I don't think it's okay.

You may not like her. Hell, I don't like her either even though I'm offering a justification for her actions. But hating her is no justification for a misogynist slur.

[Annces]

80. No

That is misogynistic.

[speedoo]

107. Yes, but...

if my intent in using the word in describing her has nothing to do with misogyny is it still a misogynistic usage?

Not meaning to play word games, seriously. Does the user's intent in using a word not count at all?

[Elspeth]

133. It's always misogynistic, pal.

Increase your 2 cent vocabulary and find another word.

[Name removed]

138. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Annces]

139. Why use it then

I think it is specifically potent, because it is used to really hit a woman hard. I don't know the history of it or anything, but I know the people who I have heard use it were men who wanted to be especially nasty about a woman. Or it is used by a woman, who has extremely low value for people in general. A favorite word for abusers I would guess too.

[hootinholler]

84. That's the word I had in mind. n/t

[kestrel91316]

23. SHAMEFUL, hateful, classist behavior. One more reason to

bring back guillotines.

She makes Marie Antoinette look like Mother Theresa.

[damntexdem]

25. Another lesson: Condi knows how to treat the peasants.

She longs for Dubya's total restoration of aristocracy.

[leftofthedial]

31. she is an utter waste of skin

there is no reason for such a thing to exist

[hatrack]

35. There's a name for people who treat the help like that in stores and restaurants:

"Asshole".

And all the money in the world can't cover the stench of a condescending asshole.

I know, I waited on thousands of them.

[blondeatlast]

42. This would be a much better country if everyone had to flip burgers,

schlep food, and sell rude people stuff for three months.

Come to think of it, a stint at DMV BEHIND the counter would help too. That's the kind of compulsory service I caould easily support.

[LWolf]

39. I don't see that the person with more $$ is somehow more

valuable, more important, or more deserving, myself. I value the people on both sides of the counter, myself.

Are inexpensive earrings somehow a symbol of low status, and "beneath" the people who make so much more than those behind the counter?

How would Condi answer that youtube debate question about working for minimum wage?

[Joanne98]

45. Condascenda... Greedy selfish and cruel....

[file83]

142. LOL - that a perfect alias for her.

:rofl:

[Johonny]

47. The whole story doesn't make sense.

Why does Rice think the person working behind the counter at the store works for minimum wage? I imagine some jewelry stores have minimum wage workers, but most high end shops have professionals working on commission and they do pretty well financially. Is the sales clerk and the manager the same person? The story is unclear to that point, however for a high end small jewelry store it's very likely. Finally if you don't want cheap jewelry don't shop in a store that sells... cheap jewelry. I know this sounds amazing but someone really interested in buying high end content wouldn't get mad at the clerk for showing them low end stuff they would leave the store, because clearly this isn't the kind of store a real high end buyer goes to.

[Ino]

50. He drew the wrong lesson from that story.

"She knows how to get what she wants" is not the conclusion I'd reach from that, and force was hardly necessary. Here are some more likely ones:

1. She is quick to address perceived slights with condescending rudeness.

2. She has a huge chip on her shoulder.

3. She's just as likely to descend to stereotypes as anyone else (Why does she assume the clerk HAS to work for minimum wage, or that he/she IS working for minimum? Maybe she/he works on commission. Maybe he/she's putting herself through law school. Maybe she/he's the owner's daughter/son.)

4. She's an arrogant asshole.

[gasperc]

54. Ms Rice get this straight

your a terrible, terrible secretary of state, we dislike you intensly and you have ill served America

[Spazito]

55. The REAL Condi exposed....

She is disgusting, her contempt for others less "imperial" than her is on full display. It is NOT a race issue, imo, as others have posted, it is a behavior issue and is as simple and disgusting as that.

Her treatment of the clerk is contemptible yet not surprising at all, sadly.

[tanyev]

58. Well, la di dah, Princess.

This clears up the mystery of why all her efforts at diplomacy have been a complete disaster.

[ima_sinnic]

60. that pig has no class at all

what a disgusting blight on the human race. everything about her is VILE. she looks like a snake.

[JohnShadows]

62. Hey, I guess that's what they say to the National Guard troops ...

...they won't buy body armor for, as well. And they make bank by attacking us 'liberal elite'.

[LostinVA]

65. You don't think the author would have mentioned race as a factor if it was a factor?

Of course they would have. Instead, they go to great pains to state that THIS is the moral of the story, not minority-women-makes-good: "The lesson of the story is clear: The secretary of state knows how to get what she wants, by force if necessary."

I doubt Rice was in Claire's or Wal-Mart buying jewelry, and sale clerks at nice jewelry counters and stores (actually, ANY salesperson) knows how to read a customer, or they don't last long.

[fishwax]

90. But the author of the article stated the moral, not the author of the book

The moral, as stated in the article is three or four times removed from the original incident. It's the article writer interpreting a book written by another reporter who related a story another person told about something Rice did. So if perceived racism were a factor in Rice's response, it would hardly be surprising if that were lost somewhere along the way. (It's quite possible that even if Rice personally perceived racism and responded based on that perception, that reasoning might not have been apparent to her friend Coit Blacker, who told the original tale.) I'm not suggesting it happened that way, just that it's possible.

At any rate, if it did happen that way, it wouldn't be the first or last time a jewelry clerk risked losing an account because of prejudice, just as--in the event that the exchange was innocuous and Rice was just being a jerk--it wouldn't be the first or last time she acted like a rotten human being :)

[lazyriver]

67. One of my Sociology college professors once said, during

a lecture discussing Class (both as a concept of stratifying people within society and a desirable human quality), "Many wealthy people mistake themselves for aristocracy when, in fact, there is a huge difference. Aristocrats are wealthy but also well educated, well socialized people who are enlightened enough to understand the plights of others less fortunate than themselves. Aristocrats understand their wealth comes not only from the family inheritance or investment portfolio but also from the hard work of others who are willing to hold up the ground floor of the Great Economic Model of Capitalism that makes wealth possible for them".

Rice could learn something from that man.

[Fresh_Start]

75. Condi's character is already evident

why so many DUers are assuming she was the victim of prejudice is really amazing. Is there a lot of projection going on here?

Here's another Rice gem.
Asia's tsunami disaster provided a "wonderful opportunity" for the United States to show compassion with relief efforts that reaped "great dividends" on the diplomatic front, Secretary of State-designate Condoleezza Rice said (at her confirmation hearing).

Rice is a classless, clueless woman.

[lazyriver]

87. "wonderful opportunity"...

I just threw up in my mouth. So glad she travels the world representing our country. I'd rather have Jeff Foxworthy, in full character, out there doing her job.

[Fresh_Start]

105. yes, she far exceeded Barbara's 'beautiful mind'

or 'this worked out well for them' (Katrina victims) when she suggested that a tragedy costing over 250,000 lives is a wonderful opportunity.

[LostinVA]

112. Yeah, I agree

Re: the victim of racism.

[philosophie_en_rose]

68. Nice one, Whitley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb_I3YBUE5k

:)

[Trillo]

72. So it's the Executive Branch waging Class Warfare. n/t

[Ganja Ninja]

74. Surprising that nobody ever married this little jewel.

:yoiks:

[Elspeth]

102. Marital status is not an indication of character or desirability

Stressing her marital status is a way of playing into general misogyny that hurts us all as women.

[zbdent]

76. This reminds me of an episode of "A Different World" ... rich (rhymes with) witch

comes off tennis court, realizes that she didn't have a gift for someone's birthday. Runs in to huffy jewelry store.

Person behind counter brushes her off to attend to a well-dressed woman. In anger, witch decides to flash her gold card, and buys a bunch of high-end jewelry "just to show the salesperson she could" ...

Later, after the witch explained what happened to a friend, the friend said "So, you gave her a big commission?"

Witch returns to the store (dressed in her higher-end clothes) and returns the merchandise, and tells manager that maybe she should have a conversation with the salesperson as to why she was returning the merch.

Now, did it matter that the early 20s witch was black, and the sales clerk was older and white? Nothing in the actions suggested that the sales clerk had disdain for the witch because she was black. From my own experience, walking into a fancy place in crappy clothes looking like you don't have money would get you the cold shoulder, no matter your skin color. You had a college kid (not notorious for having big bucks - her friends didn't have her kind of money) asking to see high-end jewelry. (Can you say college prank?) What ever gave the impression that this sweaty kid in tennis clothes had $$$?

This incident with Condascending Lies reminds me of the attitude ... "I've got money/power, you little twit. Kiss my ring ..."

[GETPLANING]

78. Money doesn't buy class

What a f****** bitch!

[LostInAnomie]

85. "The secretary of state knows how to get what she wants, by force if necessary. "

Who the fuck would honestly take that as the lesson of the story?

I take the lesson to be that Condi is a condescending, arrogant, classist, bitch that treats those she perceives to be "below" her as trash. There is no excuse for treating another person this way. NONE!

Sale or no sale, if I were the manager of that store I would have kicked her the fuck out.

[jmowreader]

88. She should come to Fayetteville and try that shit

"Commissioned salesperson of luxury goods" is a very popular occupation for the wives of Fort Bragg's high-ranking officers. I can see the conversation:

"Let's get one thing straight. You're behind the counter because you have to work for the minimum wage. I'm on this side because I make considerably more."
'My husband is an Army colonel who serves as commander of 7th Special Forces Group. Please leave.'

[freestyle]

89. How you treat "service" workers says a lot about you

This says that Rice is heartless and contemptuous of the "little people" My totally unsolicitedd dating advice is to watch how a person treats the wait staff when you go out with them. That is where the inner asshole shines through.

[Poiuyt]

93. The lesson of the story is clear: Condi is a bitch

How rude. For a rich, powerful person to denigrate a working class person is reprehensible.

[B Calm]

100. The lesson of the story is: Republicans HATE WORKING PEOPLE!

Nothing that we didn't already know. Look at the way they despise labor unions. They know when labor sticks together that wages and benifits go up. Republicans have always been for keeping the working class in their place and working as cheap as they can get them to.

[Marr]

99. Now think about Katrina, and her shoe shopping.

Kind of puts it into focus, doesn't it?

[WritersBlock]

103. Condiscending trashy bitch. Spelling intentional. n/t

[debbierlus]

106. Given that she is willing to lie to enable Bush to murder innocent people

A condescending comment is not suprising. She is a criminal just like the rest of them, in fact, worse. I always hold my gender to a higher standard :)

[roguevalley]

108. anyone who shames a working person who can't strike back is a

fuck. she's a bigger bitch than I thought she was.

[Gloria]

109. Should have taken those earring and shoved them between her teeth

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Elspeth]

114. Absolutely not.

Do your own dirty work and get flamed for it. Don't hide behind someone's skirt.

[goodgd_yall]

124. Heh.

:applause:

[ThomCat]

125. Because it would be so much better if he found

a woman to validate his misogynistic opinion. Geez.

Good response. :applause:

[fishwax]

129. .

:applause:

[shadowknows69]

134. Hey my wife calls her that all the time

I'll get her to do it.

[goodgd_yall]

111. Context matters?

Maybe the saleswoman was white and Rice wanted to set her straight. The saleswoman thought she was too poor (being black) to buy expensive jewelry. That's racist. I don't blame Rice for putting her in her place.

[Bluebear]

130. You are reading a lot into this, aren't you? She thought this and maybe she thought that...

...so your conclusion is it was racist and you don't blame Rice?

[EFerrari]

123. And you're behind the 8 ball because you're an incompetent

Bush lackey and a disgrace to this nation.

Stanford should WEEP to ever have been associated with you.

[fishnfla]

126. So if the sales clerk were a black female

notice the words here: IF the clerk were another black female and Dr Death says to her, and notice the words here carefully "you HAVE TO work for THE minimum wage"...who talks to whom like that?

Edit to add: the thread title is missing a word from the direct quote

[KansDem]

127. As someone who has worked many minimum-wage jobs in his lifetime...

If someone said that to me, I'd have given him or her a very expensive wad of phlegm in the face.

[noiretextatique]

128. naw, she's just a nasty bitch

:wtf: who says things like that except nasty bitches-

[spanone]

131. ...force and without class.

[blues90]

135. I put a jinx on Rice

The hell with people like her , I hope she finds herself stuck in the middle of Iraq sitting in 130 degrees in a tent and no water or food .

People like this who think because they have money and are above the rest of the commons make me sick to death .

She will die someday just like the rest of us and there is nothing she can do about this or take with her and life is a second in time .

The most expensive ear-rings on earth do not improve the looks of a pig .

[lumberjack_jeff]

137. Clearly, merit doesn't count for much. n/t

[rateyes]

143. I have a self-imposed rule against the use of this word...

but, in this case, I'm going to make an exception:

Condaleeza Rice is a bitch.

[Maru Kitteh]

145. I thought the lesson was that Rice is an asshole. An insensitive, boorish,

condescending ass.


You HAVE TO work for the minimum wage? HAVE TO? Up yours, honey.

[tabasco]

147. Indefensible behavior in any circumstances. n/t

[PassingFair]

She sounds like a typical ASSHOLE. n/t

[Duppers]

152. well, of course, she's from the party of assholes

From here: http://gahzette.blogspot.com/

[bdamomma]

149. what a bitch condi is.

:grr:

[eridani]

154. Rice and her class snobbery vs the clerk and her racism

Geez. What a choice.

[sakabatou]

156. A bitch to the end

[cgrindley]

157. if she's so damn smart...

why does she have such appalling taste? it's like she bought all of her suits from Bea Arthur's yard sale. I'd love to see what Condi considers to be nice earrings... perhaps when she was provost at Stanford, she could have struck a committee on personal aesthetics to write her some sort of report.

[Meldread]

163. Condi is just a bitch.

There is no excuse for her actions. Anyone who wants to give her a way out is obviously looking at the situation through rose-colored glasses from their own experiences. Believe me, Condi travels around with armed bodyguards and secret service agents. I don't care how racist you are, you aren't going to assume a person like that is poor and most likely, as someone in sales you'll be scared shitless. After all, you're about to do a deal with an obviously important (and most likely wealthy) individual. It would be worse if the sales person could actually identify Condi.

It's all about Occam's Razor. The likely scenario was that Rice walked up to the salesclerk and pointed out the earrings she wanted in the case, the salesclerk was nervous or misunderstood which ones she pointed out, and showed her the wrong pair. Rice then decided to be a condescending bitch to one of the "unwashed masses" to remind her of her "place."

[MasonJar]

164. How typically Bushista crass!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cassandra]

167. Jewelry store employees make more than minimum wage...

if they are behind the counter and the goods in the showcases are expensive enough for Condiscenda. Selling jewelry takes some expertise, which you won't get from minimum wage employees. If Rice thought the saleswoman was being racist, she should have asked to see the manager or the owner.
I wonder if the reporter would have been even more admiring if Rice had slapped the clerk around a bit.

[Fresh_Start]

174. LOL - so Condi leaped to the wrong conclusion

I guess the story is telling on more than one level about the problems of witch Rice

[winston61]

168. Oh my goodness Jemimah,

Don't let the gap-toothed smile fool you. She's just another lick spittle in Bush's army of lackies and house servants. Alberto, Condi, etc. Hired help that would jump off a building for ol' Massa, yet have nothing but contempt for those they consider below them. You don't have to be poor and white to be trash.

[mitchum]

169. Spoken like a true house....

[Decruiter]

170. The Whore from Hell. What more needs to be said? n/t

[Name removed]

176. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nikia]

178. It isn't clear whether the incident took place when she was secretary of state

I agree with the posters who say that she probably was responsing to her perception of racism from the clerk.
If she was a young professional at the time, her response is even more understandable.

[Gormy Cuss]

184. It's not only unclear when it took place, it's far more likely to be a tale from her Stanford days

given that the relater is a former Stanford colleague. Condi was hired by Stanford when she was still in her 20s, with a new Ph.D. I've worked with enough of that type to know that many are completely insecure for the first few years because they're surrounded by Ph.D.S with c.v. that are impressive.

I also agree that she was probably responding to a perceived slight based on her race and that no matter how privileged her upbringing she would have been smart to consider the possibility. Of course, her response was not the most polished way to handle it, but as someone upthread said, sometimes it's hard to keep the anger contained.

[Cass]

179. This is our top diplomat??

You can tell alot about a person's character by the way they treat wait staff, clerks, etc.

[Mozcram]

187. Thoughtful reading and thoughtful responding...

I agree that this story is probably from the early days, when she didn't have nearly the wealth and power that she now has, and was less likely to have been insulated from the omnipresent racism of american society. So it may very well have been an over-reaction to perceived racism. I think that it is quite possible that racism is in there; after Condi IS black, and in this country, one's blackness, if there, is primary.

Of course, classism is hardly better than racism, and while also pervasive, it is not excusable.

But to those who would immediately cry "trash!" or "bitch!" I would point out a few things.

First that these concepts ("trash""bitch") are rich with classist and sexist connotations, and bringing them into use so quickly and easily calls into question the that we come from a moral high ground. (Similarly, our nation's moral standing in the world has suffered much from our conduct regarding Iraq. People considering engagement with our ideas may not bother if too much hateful invective obscures what is valuable.)

And second, can't we use some higher reasoning powers in relating to a story like this? Many stories appear when someone becomes successful, famous or powerful, partly because others around them become more sensitive to slight, or become jealous or competitive toward them. So there is the possibility that the story is apocryphal, or exaggerated.

Finally, here we are, in a group of like-minded people, communicating with each other, from the safety of our homes, largely hidden from each other. It is a situation in which we can enjoy the support of others, but it is also a place where we may feel free to indulge in behaviors which we, were it not for the anonymity of the internet, would be ashamed to engage in, like expressing violent hatred toward "the enemy." The concept of a common enemy is a tremendous tool in organizing support, but it has limitations. It is all too easy to pile on to someone in hatred or anger. I like to think, that we can do better than that.

We have the opportunity to use our outrage at injustice, our anger about others' corruption, at the abuse of our trust, to fuel constructive action. We can sign petitions, compose letters to the editor, volunteer, organize, make phone calls, and create e-mail activism projects.

I promise you, by being more thoughtful in our responses to offenses like this, and by channeling the energy that they bring up in us, we can accomplish much. By simply indulging in expressions of hatred, we weaken ourselves and nurture our worst, destructive impulses.