You know what I find offensive?

[FreeState]

You know what I find offensive?

When I was growing up I had a really hard time with my sexuality. I was raised LDS (Mormon) and they basically turned their back on me. In school, middle school and high school, I was called a fag and no one stood up for me, not even a teacher.

I was constantly told that it was my fault - if I only acted like a "real" man acts no one would bother me. If only I didn't act effeminate ever. If only I took an interest in "manly" sports. If only I stopped taking interests in things typical girls liked. Maybe if I acted more manly I would not get hit each and every time I walked down the halls of school. If only I acted manly people would understand me. If only I acted like a real man I would go to heaven and be with my family forever. If only...

You know what I find offensive:

People putting polls up to see if I have a right to feel offended.
People telling me to get over it, it was a joke.
People insisting I must get over it, act like a man.
People that don't see that it is hate against women that fuels homophobia.

But most of all I find offensive people who claim they are progressive democrats that say that it does not matter because they were not offended.

"Quick do something manly".... if only it was that easy.

[Rosemary2205]

1. k and r and hugs.

[ThomCat]

I agree.

:hug:
And you must be a very strong man to survive all of that.

I swear we're stronger than many of those "manly" straight men. They couldn't survive what we often go through.

[redqueen]

3. "we're stronger than many of those "manly" straight men"

Damn right.

[FreeState]

11. You got that right

Im constantly amazed at the strength I fin in myself and in LGBT people in general. That which does not kill us makes us stronger...

[redqueen]

2. Very well put... thank you very much for sharing that.

Here's hoping it fuels understanding.

[porphyrian]

4. I'll kick that. - n/t

[Solly Mack]

5. Bravo!!!

Thank you!!!

[helderheid]

6. I've already R'd. Now kicking. I was raised Quaker in Logan, UT

:hug:

[FreeState]

7. Logan

I went to USU - loved it. I actually think Logan is one of the most beautiful cities in the US. That and USU is very supportive of its LGBT students (at least it was when Iw as there).

Thanks for the hugs :)

[JackBeck]

13. Delete.

Wrong place.

[mikelgb]

8. kick

[KenHodson]

9. Sounds terrible - was anyone in your family supportive?

I have never heard the "hate against women" before, I've assumed it was "hate against different types of people".
Excuse my dumbness, but I can't say that I've read that anywhere before...

[Name removed]

15. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FreeState]

18. My families is coming around...

My families is coming around... they are way more supportive than before. However they still have issues of their own that they have to work out. But both my partner and I are always welcome and I know they love me, so I could not ask for much more. I graduated high school in the late 80's so they have had years to get use to it:)

Most homophobia is fueled by fear/hate of women. To tell a gay guy to do something manly... well there is only one opposite of manly, womanly. This is because we live in a society that bases everything we do on what are gender is.

[helderheid]

23. You really hit the nail on the head! (I almost typed head on the nail)

[salin]

30. Glad to hear they are coming around.

Great OP, btw.

Side note: until this thread - I had never thought about a tie-in between misogyny and homophobia. It makes a heck of a lot of sense to me - but had never thought about it. Of course, as a straight female - I understand misogyny - but I don't have to confront homophobia on a regular basis - so I never had a reason to contemplate this (just making the point that when we are not in other shoes - sometimes we miss some really key insights).

[L A Woman]

10. yeah, i've found it shocking...

and perhaps even more shocking is the number of so-called educated people who don't know what satire is. That was NOT satire. It was an ad that pandered to the middle-American male football fan and it was designed to appeal to his (presumed) homophobic nature to sell a product.

Despicable.

But that's why I have been on DU a year and have less than 1000 posts. I can only stomach the disappointment in short spurts.

[Maven]

12. That about sums it up

K/R

[JackBeck]

14. I know how you feel.

6th grade is when I became the school fag. And I still get called one today.

And as a gay man in a 10-year committed relationship, I'm sick of hearing we are not considered "manly", as if heterosexual men are the only ones allowed to lay claims to that gender identity.

[nam78_two]

16. K&R.nt

[democrank]

17. Thanks for posting this.

Hold your head high and be yourself.

[patricia92243]

19. Hate against women fuels homophobia???? I don't understand that statement.

[JackBeck]

21. Misogyny is hatred for women.

Since gay men in our society are not considered "manly", they are looked as "girly" or as "sissies", thus the connection.

[FreeState]

24. Gender norms

Gender norms are in place to keep people in their place. The opposite of "manly" is "womanly". Most of the degrading terms people use for gay people that are male are references to acting like a woman, after all what is wrong with acting like a woman?

[soothsayer]

49. Ever read "Labeling Women Deviant"? Shur agrees with you.

In Labeling Women Deviant, Edwin Schur writes: "One way or another, virtually every woman in our society is affected by the dominant definitions of deviance... relatively speaking femaleness appears to be a devalued status." Much of what is considered masculine, and by a long tradition in various disciplines, normal, is predicated on an explicit rejection or denial of the feminine. As a result, the female as a gender category is already placed in a certain relationship to normality and deviance. Russo notes: "Normalization as it is enforced in... the 'technologies of gender' has been harsh and effective in its highly calibrated differentiation of female bodies in the service of a homogeneity called gender difference..." Thus normality operates on two levels with regard to gender: on one level, normality is concerned with the maintenance of separate spheres for concepts of "male" and "female"; on a deeper level, normality values "male" and "female" unequally.

[FreeState]

55. I haven't read it (yet)

I will need to go check that out at the library...

I have five sisters and most of my friends growing up were women - I have them to thank for understanding women and because of that I understand myself and the world around me.

I believe the Snickers ad was just as offensive to women and men as it was to gays. There was an ad on the website where a third mechanic sees them kissing so he comes over and acts effeminate, to the point of pushing his oily long grey hair back like Cher would, implying to only way to hit on a gay man is to act like a woman.

[truedelphi]

147. Experiences that women a genertion ago had are rather telling

Back when I was a young woman working in sales, when I was called in for a "meeting" with hireups, it was so they could make comments on my looks, and dress.

When men in the sales force were called in, it was for a discussion of some job related item.

It was the way it was. A woman could either put up with it, or leave.

And it was assumed that if you were looking pretty - then you were only making the sale because of your looks. (Management did not want to hear what my customers were telling me -that they bought from me beause I worked harder, listened harder and stressed that the product I offered filled their needs. The men on the force tended to sell through intimidation.)

There was a definite fear of dealing with the "feminine"

I cannot at all imagine what it must have been like on that sales force if you were a gay man.
The way things were structured then, you would have definitely needed to keep it in the closet.

[ThomCat]

25. It's pretty simple when you think about it.

Hatred of women (misogyny) leads to obscessively strict gender roles. What is masculine gets defined and valued. What is feminine gets defined and devalued. Homophobia is based on perceived violations of those gender roles.

Without the value-laden gender roles, you couldn't have the homophobic stereotypes.

[salin]

36. Wow - more and more clear

I have never fully understood the *gut level* reaction of some men to the idea of gay - far past what could be attributed simply to "how do they do that and ick" (no offense -just trying to spell out the difference between discomfort with something unfamiliar that some have vs the visceral emotional reactions of others.)

If one has to understand the world in a strictly ordered sense, esp when there are strict gender roles with the female in the subservient role - than the whole *idea* of people who don't fit those strict gender roles must seem to those folks to whom this sense of 'order' is compulsively obscessive - must be very threatening. In the sense of being the rigid thinking types (who don't seem able to work through cognitive dissonance) feeling threatened by the idea that if they ACCEPT these different roles, than they have to reject their understanding of the world and the very strict gender roles. This makes so much sense to me now. Sorry that I never thought about this before.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

40. gender roles

are partly based on societal norms, partly on our biological urgers. I've always believed that humans are just a bunch of sophistacated brutish animals. Assuming that's true (or mostly true) how then do we fight these gender roles -- if it's in our very nature?

Homophobia derives from the same place all hatred comes from -- ignorance. People who don't know gay or lesbian people are going to be more likely to hate them or at least be indifferent to their suffering. I've never "hated" gays, but I've certainly used "gay" and "fag" as pejoratives (that's so gay...). You don't even think about it when every single person around you does it. But because I've gotten to know gay people (mostly because I moved to NYC) and I've read some of the heart breaking posts on this forum, I know what I did was wrong.

Misogyny probably doesn't help things, but the real cause is ignorance.

[ThomCat]

45. Your predisposition to a certain "typical" gender role

is one thing. Whether it's based on social norms, biological urges, or whereever you want to attribute it.

But ENFORCING those gender roles on others is the problem. Feel free to fit into the gender roll if it feels normal and natural for you. But if you crush exceptions you're taking that step into prejudice and discrimination.

As for the Ignorance argument, that's easily debunked. The entire Multicultural movement in education was based on the idea that the way to end racism was to educate people about black people. The problem that was found is that this argument insists on focusing on the individual and ignores the larger contexts. "If someone's a bigot, educate them." That ignores the roll of social institutions, power inequality, and prejudice among educated people. You can educate a person, but if they're still in a racist environment they're going to act according to racist norms and structures.

It's not just ignorance. It's people taking advantage of inequality for self-serving reasons. It's culture and tradition that defines "us" versus "them.' It's people going along with "the way things are," regardless of what they know and what they think. Knowing about it doesn't change it. Education doesn't change the perceived value and benefit of it.

Focusing entirely on ignorance/education cannot work because it only addresses part of prejudice.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

46. you can't read a book about black or gay people

and suddenly lose one's bigotry. The way to lift the veil of ignorance is by meeting people and by sharing in the human experience, be it by having a cup of coffee, playing a sport, or whatever. That's what education means in this sense.

I don't believe bigorty can be "solved" either. There will ALWAYS be hateful people. ALWAYS. I say this with thousands of years of war and suffering to prove me right. We can alleiviate the pain and suffering caused by hate, but we can't ever stop it. I guess that's my Yin-Yang view of the world talking. I think I'm getting off-topic...

[Left Is Write]

80. I agree with you -

oddly, one of the first things I thought of was "you throw like a girl."

[raccoon]

130. And think about how people say about girls,

"She can run/climb/swim as well as any boy."

[raccoon]

129. Well said, ThomCat!

"What is masculine gets defined and valued. What is feminine gets defined and devalued. "

[L A Woman]

31. There's actually a really good book about this...

Called "Homophobia: A Weapon of Sexism." Basically, since women are inferior beings, a man who behaves like one, dresses like one, has "female" mannerisms, interests, etc. is inferior.

Conversely, a woman who "tries to be a man," is overstepping her bounds and should be beaten back down where she belongs.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

52. nah

Conversely, a woman who "tries to be a man," is overstepping her bounds and should be beaten back down where she belongs.

that doesn't explain the popularity of lesbian porn. i need a caveat before i accept that premise..


edited for grammar

[Name removed]

56. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

81. The lesbian porn you are thinking of is all straight women performing for straight men.

Seriously, you won't accept that premise based on men liking to watch "lesbian porn?" What world do you live in, because it isn't reality.

[L A Woman]

89. huh? what does that have to do with anything?

i am talking about homophobia in day to day life. if you don't know that a "masculine" woman is treated differently (WORSE) than a traditionally feminine woman, you have never been a lesbian.

and btw, the "lesbians" in the porn to which you refer are not lesbians. they are doing films for money with the purpose of pleasing the males who purchase it.

[Solly Mack]

33. Real simple. Gay men are called effeminate, girlie, sissy etc

Meaning they are like women - as if being a woman is a bad thing...and you have to a negative opinion of women to think being a woman is somehow less, somehow bad, somehow beneath being a man


also...

he cries like a girl
he throws like a girl
he walks like a girl

all remarks meant to insult males at the expense of women...with the root being - a negative attitude of women

Gay men or men perceived to be gay because they don't fit the patriarchal stereotypical definition of manly are compared to women...and the basis for for that is a clear hatred of women.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

58. And it starts in elementary school, when the male P.E. teacher

says to the non-athletic boys, "What are you, a bunch of girls?"

Repeated over a man's life, it makes him stereotypically masculine, unwilling to step out of his comfort zone, always afraid of what "the guys" will think, and therefore, boring.

[Solly Mack]

60. Yes..it starts the very second someone tells a boy

"don't act like a girl"

[stanwyck]

117. You've never heard all the derogatory terms

aimed at men rumored to be gay? You've never heard men sneeringly called "pussies"? Or heard someone in authority, a father or a coach say "quit acting like a girl!" Like that's the biggest insult possible?
If not, you've led a charmed life.

[mzteris]

20. k&r

Thanks for posting. Maybe it'll help some understand.

It's not for those who AREN'T offended to say if it IS offensive or not.

[gratuitous]

22. That is indeed offensive

And having been active in the welcoming congregations movement and a member of a publicly affirming congregation, I have to say that your story is all too typical of the stories I've heard. Add in the routine beatings and hazings and tauntings, and it's a nightmare scenario.

I do have a question, though, and perhaps this is the thread in which to pose it:

Yesterday on "The View," the ladies were discussing the Snickers ad, and Rosie O'Donnell stated the case for why the ad was offensive in such a forthright manner, that even the token conservative on the panel, Elizabeth (last name escapes me), admitted that she could see how it would be offensive. Rosie then launched into a bit of a rant about why she always has to be the gay police, and why can't other people see these things? Joy Behar protested that she too had pointed these sorts of things out prior to Rosie coming on the show.

But to my question: Is it fair to expect poor dumb straights to perceive a slight or insult to gay people? There have been times in discussions, seminars and retreats when opinions were offered that I was horrified at, only to have the gay folks in the group bust a gut laughing about it. That is to say, who am I (straight white man that I am) to say that the Snickers ad -- which can be viewed from several different angles -- is patently and objectively offensive to gays? If you as a gay person were offended by the ad, I'll endorse your right to be offended 100%. But in a vacuum, I would have been hard-pressed state that the Snicker ad I saw (the one that ended with the pulling of the chest hair) was objectively offensive. I just thought it was kind of dumb.

I understand Rosie's point about "always having to be the gay police," but I have to say that I don't feel at all qualified to decide whether something is offensive to my gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgendered sisters and brothers, particularly if it's a borderline call.

[ThomCat]

26. I'm a guy, and I frequently recognize sexism.

I'm white, and I frequently recognize racism.

Why can't straight people recognize homophobia? :shrug:

[gratuitous]

29. And I frequently recognize homophobia

But not in every case, and at least in the one Snickers ad, it went right by me.

Do you recognize sexism each and every time? Or racism? I try to be attuned to other people's sensitivities, but I have to say that I don't see it every time.

[ThomCat]

32. How would I know?

:shrug:

We can try to recognize it every time, but if we miss it we're not going to know unless someone else points it out.

That's okay, that's why there are so many of us. :)

[FreeState]

34. Laughter doesn't equal approval

Laughter doesn't equal approval. I laugh for many different reasons. I laughed at my grandmothers funeral. I laugh when Im nervous. I laugh at things that are offensive - I even laughed at the snickers ad the first time I saw it. I laughed in Brokeback Mountain when the wife caught her husband kissing a man (because it made me very uncomfortable). I guess what it comes down to is laughter is just that, laughter.

I live by the general rule of "if I don't know if they will take it the same way I mean it" I don't say it. I don't always get it right, but generally it keeps me out of trouble:)

Thank you so much for being active in a welcoming congregation - we need more people like you. It always warms my heart to know people are out there that accept people and encourage all people to seek spiritual growth.

[Cerridwen]

35. I think it's not so much about the times that we do or miss when

something is offensive, I think it's more the attitude that we get to tell someone "You don't have the right to be offended" *especially* if it's a borderline call. As the OP says, when our response can be equated with, "ah geez, can't you just take it like a man?" or "lighten up" as though the person who is offended doesn't have the right to feel their own feelings because it's causing us some discomfort. Who am I/you/we to tell others which of their feelings is right or wrong.



My $0.02

[Felinity]

48. I don't think we're bad if we don't recognize every such instance

My reaction to the Snickers ad was to laugh at the macho/homophobic response of the imbecilic males in questions, but I hated the commercial and would not watch it again.

Now I have been educated by how offended the Gay community was and I think it's slightly more disgusting (only slightly cause I really hated it) and maybe I'll catch on faster next time.

But as a general rule, if we were all offended at anything that offended anyone else, there would be nothing that was not offensive.

So let's all do our best to clue in, learn as we go, and not go out of our way to take offense.

[pacalo]

27. I have so much compassion for you, FreeState...

Last night after watching Keith Olberman, I watched an MSNBC documentary which followed about a Canadian boy whose circumcision at the age of 6 months went horribly wrong. At a time when medical technology wasn't progressed enough to correct the problem, his parents made the excruciating decision to raise him as a girl. He went through the same feelings as you did while growing up, but I think this story may help you to feel more fortunate, at least I hope so.

Here's the story that I found about this family: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/reimer/

:hug:

[FreeState]

38. That is heartbreaking

I saw a documentary on David Reimer's life. I am fortunate in that I did not have it nearly as difficult as he appears to have had it. Thanks for the reminder:)

[ruiner4u]

28. YUP!...

the last few days of the DU satire professors have me shaking my head...

I agree with you 100%.

[gaspee]

37. Well said

I don't understand how people can live without empathy. And it's not just the right who lacks empathy for their fellow human beings.

I had almost the exact opposite experience. I refuse to act "feminine" and you're right about homophobia being a part of the hatred against women.

And I always stuck up for the boys who got picked on for not being manly enough. I kicked the shit out of the supposedly "manly" boys. Ahhh, talk about poetic justice.

[ThomCat]

39. That's awesome!

When I was a kid, there was one tomboy who used to defend me. She was cool and we became friends. But she only lived in the area for a few years.

Let's hear it for kids who don't conform! :toast:

[me b zola]

111. lol, I had to check your profile to see where you are from...

...I thought that I may have been that tomboy. :)

In high school my gay friend Hector thought that he'd join the swim team for a semester, but the guys were always fucking with him. I'd have to "straighten out" the bullies every now and then. It came to an end when they threw Hector's underware up in the rafters of the changing room. I went in the boys changing room yelling (okay, maybe I threatened to beat them up) at all of them and made them retrieve Hector's drawers. They left Hector be after that. :)

[cui bono]

162. I don't like the term tomboy. It's almost the same as equating a boy to a girl

if you think about it. Why is a girl that's not wearing dresses and playing with barbie dolls all the time a tomboy? Why isn't she a girl? Calling a girl a tomboy is accepting that there are certain things boys do and certain things girls do and I don't think we should place gender limitations on people.

[Cerridwen]

41. I'm sorry you went through that.

I agree with everything you wrote.

And the sad truth is, the kids I grew up with who said those things and thought 'faggot' was the worst thing you could call someone, many times their idea of 'manly' had to do with pissing through a chain-link fence or beating the crap out of someone 'weaker' because they could.

So, in the interest of doing things 'manly,' please go pee through a chain-link fence?

May poor attempt at trying to get you to smile. (If you care to.)

:hug:

[swimboy]

135. I love that!

I hope it's okay if I wait for warmer weather? :hug:

[Unvanguard]

42. Indeed. The dismissal of homophobia as "trivial"

and the insistence that we need to take it less seriously is highly offensive and disgusting, and indicative of a failure to recognize the very real harm even seemingly mild homophobia has caused and is causing.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

43. fuck 'em, and I don't mean in a biblical sense.

my spousette and I feel exactly the same. Those religious types, the well-intentioned, thee of ye old washed of brains, the people who demand that you change to suit THEIR NEEDS, not yours, well all of them can dive into an empty cement pond from the roof of a four story shed.

[MuseRider]

44. FreeState

first a :hug:

My brother is dead because of those things. I do understand, not from personal experience but through him.

As far as I am concerned being yourself, even if different, is the most manly act of all.

[FreeState]

47. Hugs back

Im so sorry to hear about your brother. I hope one days soon no one will have to deal with hate on an interpersonal level, especial todays youth. You must be an amazing sibling to be so loving.:)

Being yourself is one of the most loving human things someone can do. I do not believe in gender roles anymore - who is to say how someone should act based on their physical parts? Who gets to decide what a man or a woman is? It is so odd what we as humans put value on.

[MuseRider]

54. I totally agree with you.

I have two friends who do not identify as either gender. Why should they?

My brother has been gone a little over 4 years and I have had to piece together information about his life. He never told even me, and I have never cared and he knew that, until he was dying of AIDS. He died because he was raised to be ashamed and for some reason he was never able to get over that so getting AIDS tested was not something he was willing to do. Long story but that is it in a nutshell. He was the best human being I have ever known.

Take care of yourself and know that we are all around with support, working for those days when it no longer matters.

[belladonna]

50. Beautifully said!

I'd say more but, after the crap I've seen today, I'm afraid that I may say something really, really bad about certain people who think that commercial was perfectly okay and get this great thread locked.

[Duncan Grant]

51. Thanks for a powerful post!

As someone mentioned above, the lack of empathy around here is astounding. Your post reminds me that it's important for me to "come out" everyday. Every single day. :hi: :thumbsup:

[keepCAblue]

53. K&R ... Couldn't have said it better.

I wonder, if one of the men in the commercial had been black and the other white and had the white one reacted in revile and disgust at the black one simply for being black, would such a commercial have been allowed to air? And if it had, would DU'ers be strutting up to the plate to defend such a racist commercial as harmless, while lecturing all outraged black DU'ers to just "lighten up" and to "get over it."?

:banghead:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

57. I Agree With Some And Disagree With Some.

The parts I disagree with are the following:

"People putting polls up to see if I have a right to feel offended."

I didn't see any polls like that. I only saw ones asking on a personal basis if it was offensive. But if I simply didn't see them and they in fact existed, then I would end up agreeing with that statement.

"People insisting I must get over it, act like a man."

Though I agree on premise, I couldn't imagine someone here saying such things. Did that happen here or did you mean in your general life as you are talking about this issue? Regardless of whether the former or the latter, how many people did you hear this from?

"People that don't see that it is hate against women that fuels homophobia."

No idea how homophobia has an iota to do with hate against women. It has all to do with hate towards people who the person considers different in ways that make them personally uncomfortable (very simplistic explanation). I just can't agree with this statement whatsoever that hate against women has anything to do with homophobia at all.

But overall I do agree and sympathize with what you're saying. The bullshit that anyone has to put up with due to bigotry, prejudice or otherwise is shameful.

[FreeState]

61. Some thoughts

The parts I disagree with are the following:

"People putting polls up to see if I have a right to feel offended."

I didn't see any polls like that. I only saw ones asking on a personal basis if it was offensive. But if I simply didn't see them and they in fact existed, then I would end up agreeing with that statement.

I think we might be looking at the intent differently. If you were offended and someone puts up a poll asking if it was offensive would that not irk you? What's the point of the poll? To show people were offended or not? Or is it to show that those that come in on the losing end of the poll need to be quiet? No matter what the intent I find it offensive. My person feelings aren't up to popular opinion. While it might be interesting to see were people fall on the offended or not listings, what in the end does it do to bring progressive policies into the lives of Americans?

"People insisting I must get over it, act like a man."

Though I agree on premise, I couldn't imagine someone here saying such things. Did that happen here or did you mean in your general life as you are talking about this issue? Regardless of whether the former or the latter, how many people did you hear this from?

That happened here on DU. I wont link to the post, but if you search for my posts you can find the exchange we had. It would not be fair for me to call out the poster with out the poster being part of this conversation. Basically he told me to "get over it Blacks have it worse."

"People that don't see that it is hate against women that fuels homophobia."

No idea how homophobia has an iota to do with hate against women. It has all to do with hate towards people who the person considers different in ways that make them personally uncomfortable (very simplistic explanation). I just can't agree with this statement whatsoever that hate against women has anything to do with homophobia at all.

homophobia is created from many underlying reasons - however I firmly feel that if there was no hatred of women in society the amount of hate towards LGBT persons would be considerably less in society. People don't say act like a man unless they think you are acting like a woman.

[Maven]

65. You're wrong on all three points, but particularly the third.

Misogyny and homophobia are closely, inextricably linked from a sociological perspective. It's been explained elsewhere on this thread ad nauseam.

[JackBeck]

66. Why read what other people think

when you've already come to your own conclusions?

[Name removed]

69. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

72. Not Sure Why You Felt The Need For The Empty And Baseless Attack. Are You Short On Substance?

:shrug:

[JackBeck]

73. Nope.

Just short.

About 5'7''.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[helderheid]

84. Oh piSHAW! I'm 5' even!

[JackBeck]

86. For a guy, I'm kind of short.

I know lots of women who are your height. When I met Randi (did she get the t-shirt?), I'd have to say you both are close in height. Amy Sedaris, Madonna, Klie Minogue...all about your height!

[helderheid]

104. According to UPS she got her shirt!

:evilgrin: YOU LUCKY BASTARD, you met her?!?

[JackBeck]

110. We marched right next to each other last March (?) in the anti-war march in NYC.

We had random back and forths. She's a lot smaller than I thought she would be. I guess it's since she has such a big personality.

[ThomCat]

82. Actually, you're being pointed towards the substance.

You so rarely ever bring any of your own.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

87. Yet Another Empty And Mindless Attack. Try Civility Sometime, Will Ya?

Until you learn how, consider our discussion over. I've no time for petty childish games from those who only want to stir up trouble.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

74. It's Not A Matter Of Right Or Wrong; It's A Matter Of Opinion. Your Black And White Thinking Isn't

conducive to legitimate discussion.

Also, on the third point, I've now read the references in this thread about it and am still in 100% disagreement that hatred of women has anything to do with homophobia. After objectively looking at the argument for it, I concluded that the supporting evidence for that opinion was weak and stretched, and didn't provide anything substantial enough for me to change my mind on the issue.

But that's ok. We're allowed to have different perceptions and opinions on that. But with this issue there is no right or wrong. There is only an opinion of I agree, disagree or am not sure.

[Maven]

76. And your penchant for needless contrarianism isn't conducive to healing, either.

nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

77. My Post Was Perfectly Fine Though Your Provocation Isn't. Since You Obviously Can't Discuss Context,

see ya! :hi:

[ThomCat]

83. Okay

So you disagree with feminist, sociologists, and all the people here who agree that sexism and homophobia are linked. And as a straight man who has never expressed any particular interest or support in the fight against either, how would you know anything about either topic?
:shrug:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

92. Again, You Have Completely Misread Context And Are Now Twisting Premise.

I only disagreed that homophobia is related to hatred against women. If you paid attention to this thread, you'd quickly be able to discern that I never once disagreed with a premise of sexism.

My direct statement was :"No idea how homophobia has an iota to do with hate against women."

You will notice the lack of reference to sexism. Wrong context bub. It is apparent that you are only conversing with me in an attempt to start a flame war or twist my context to something you can berate. Either come at me with civility or go away.

[ThomCat]

93. That would imply that there is no relationship

between sexism and hatred of women. That would be a very odd thing to believe. What makes you think that sexism has no relationship with misogyny?

[Midlodemocrat]

68. There were a lot of hateful posts yesterday, OMC

to me and to members of the DU GLBT community. Statements like 'lighten up', 'it's only a commercial', 'I'm not offended so you shouldn't be', were posted in droves.

On a progressive website, it was pretty shocking to see posts like that. Dismissing another's pain at their perception of bigotry because 'that's not what I saw, I thought it was funny'.

It wasn't pretty. A lot of people also posted that they had a right to think it wasn't offensive, just as the GLBT community thought it was.

Which wasn't the point. Obviously. I, along with a good many of the GLBT community here felt and still feel that it isn't okay for a heterosexual male to dictate to the GLBT community what to find offensive.

Much like I don't get to tell African Americans that racist jokes are funny, 'lighten up', or that I don't get to make fun of the disabled or the homeless, because I'm none of those things.

I think you would agree that dictating what a particular oppressed group finds offensive is offensive in itself. If my friends in the GLBT community find something homophobic, I have NO RIGHT to tell them otherwise.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

71. Well I Wholeheartedly Agree That Anyone Who Acted In Such Ways Should Be Ashamed Of Themselves.

[uppityperson]

96. The last couple days there have been some appalling posts.

Not just by 1 person, by a couple. Made me sick and use ignore for the first and only time (except for trying the Big Block way back when and I should've explained first, sorry).

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

98. Were They Alerted Upon? Personally, I Think Intolerance Or Pseudo Mockery Of Someone Based On

gender, race, religion or sexuality is worse even than nader endorsers, who get tombstoned easily (though with good cause).

Sorry you and the others had to put up with the small mindedness.

[uppityperson]

99. verymuch so and I think the mods were very busy

Bunch of subthreads went away, then topics locked. But there was enough to make me finally feel sick, amazing what some people can say, try to explain away.

[Oeditpus Rex]

101. There are progressively large differences

between telling others what they should consider offensive, saying "I don't think this is offensive" (emphasis on "I," denoting one's personal opinion) and saying "I thought it was funny, but I can understand how it could be offensive to others."

[Midlodemocrat]

107. OR. You couldn't have nailed it better.

I'm not gay. I also didn't see the ad. I did see the campaign because as an ex marketing/ad geek, I'm really interested in all the Superbowl Ads, mostly for the hype.

I have to say, I was appalled at the stuff at the website. I'm glad they pulled it. But, due to circumstances in my own life, (which I will be happy to detail for you via PM lest I bore the entire website) I've had a heightened awareness of what my GLBT friends go through.

If I hadn't thought it was homophobic, but my GLBT friends thought it was, the decent thing to do is to STFU about it and try to understand WHY they feel it is offensive. A lot can be learned in listening to the oppressed about why they feel oppressed.

I have to confess. I don't feel oppressed. I have a great job. A wonderful husband, kids, dogs, house in the burbs, etc. I just don't feel as though I am being kept down.

But, part of my job as a progressive is to listen to those who feel that they are. Should I ignore the homeless because I have a nice, warm home with lights and gas logs? Should I ignore racism because I'm a fat, dumb and happy white female. (okay, need to lose a few pounds, definitely not dumb, but reasonably happy)

I know from your posts that you get it. I know you do. You're a good person. And you'll fight for those who need you to.

:hug:

[Oeditpus Rex]

109. Thanks

But now I'm even more confused.

See, I expressed the third sentiment Monday night. I did laugh — in spite of my better angels, maybe; sometimes we laugh at stuff largely because we know we're not supposed to.

(In the interests of full disclosure, I did err in that my OP was rather sarcastic. I regret that and have apologized for it. I do so again, now, for those who might've missed it.)

I also said (this was in an exchange with Bluebear) that I could certainly understand why others found the ads offensive. I've tried to see all sides throughout this controversy, including that of the football players. It occurred to me that their reactions might simply be, "Oh, man, I wouldn't do that!" — which isn't necessarily homophobia, but perhaps just their own expression of their sexual orientation.

I've really tried to understand all this. And I've been castigated for it.

And that's offensive to me.

:hug:

[HardRocker05]

121. you don't see what homophobia has to do with misogyny? the two are inseparable,

keep in mind that it is really only recently that lesbianism even entered public consciousness; prior to that, "homosexuality" essentially equaled *male* homosexuality, and at least half of the reasons and ridicule offered against it were based on the assertion that there was something "womanly" about it, i.e., something inferior and contemptible, because it put a man in the position of a woman, in that most sensitive of situations. in modern parlance, gay=unmanly=bad; this point can hardly be in dispute. and why is something "unmanly" bad? well of course because women are inferior; anything "womanly" is not worthy of a "real man."

[terrya]

59. I'm glad this is on the Greatest Page. Because it deserves to be.

This is such a powerful post. I don't like to think of my high school days. Because I was the same as you. I didn't act "manly" like the guys in PE thought guys should act. I wasn't good at athletics. I was "different". So...all of that...equals "fag". Which was hurled at me. And when you realize that you are attracted to guys, like me...with NO ONE to talk to about it...it's hard. The hurt and the pain of loneliness was crushing.

I'm sorry about the hurt you went through, friend.

Terry

[RandomKoolzip]

134. Hey terry:

:hug:

:hi:

On behalf of all straight guys everywhere, I'm pretty fuckin' ashamed right now.

[racaulk]

62. FreeState, my friend...

Thank you for posting this! You described so much of my experience growing up a boy that was perceived to be "different." The one that wasn't that athletic, that was skinny and kinda wimpy, that was constantly beaten down (verbally and physically) for not being as masculine as my peers. All that (combined with the fact that I'm an only child of a single parent) led to a horribly lonely and depressing childhood and adolescence, especially as I started figuring out that I was gay during high school. It saddens me so much that my experience was not unique, that so many other gay people had to go through that same drama and bullshit when they were children. No wonder suicide rates for gay teenagers are so high...

And to go through all of that, and then have people on a message board (people that have never even met me) say that I'm too stupid or delusional to recognize homophobia when I see it, that I'm too sensitive to take a joke, and that I need to "get over it"...well, that is just as offensive as any time that anyone ever called me a "fag" or a "queer."

Thank you for your post and for pointing out what should be so obvious to anyone that identifies with the label "progressive."

Love and peace to you, my friend. :hug:

[DaveJ]

63. I think the offensiveness of that commerical

It just did not dawn on most people. I actually did not see how it was offensive until I thought of an analogy. What if it showed a white guy turning black and then becoming horrified by it. Granted, I voted 'offended' for other reasons... it seemed to insult the viewers' intelligence, and I never questioned anyone else's feelings... but, I would not judge the others too harshly just because the insult did not sink into their thick heads. Just because they did not detect the homophobia in (edit) the commercial does not mean they are bad people.

[Irishonly]

64. K&R

First, let me say I am glad your family is coming around. You obviously love them dearly and they also love you.

Second, Thank you for posting. I didn't see the ad but was pretty shocked at what I was reading and then have made the choice not to try to find the piece of trash. No one will ever be able to explain why a commercial like that was aired.

Third, I hope you have taught us all something about thinking before we write. I am concerned at the lack of empathy that seems to be the norm in this country. Mars Corp looks like a fool. You look like a strong, strong person that took the time to educate us. Thank you

[BoneDaddy]

67. So be offended

I am not saying that you haven't suffered, I am not saying that the gay community hasn't been tread upon, attacked, vilified, condemned, excommunicated, crucified, brutalized etc.

But you are not the only ones who suffer. Everyone does. Your story moved me, it was touching, personal and real, but you have an expectation that is totally unrealistic.

The expectation is that everyone thinks and feels the same way as you do. As a person raised in a religious Catholic household and who has totally and utterly rejected organized religion, I certainly hold your contempt for the irrationally religious, but the expectation of the gay and lesbian community is, I think totally unrealistic.

Regarding equality and freedom to be who you are, marry and be safe, I am 1 million percent behind you. But to think that the world will HAVE to accept you is not only irrational, it is most likely, at least in your life time, not going to happen. There will be bigots, religious nuts etc for as long as we are a people.

Way too much energy is spent on this kind of drama. It will not change the views of other people, that is an internal struggle for other people, and it will come in time or not at all, but this idea that "everyone has to accept me" is folly. It wont happen.

[Maven]

70. .

[BoneDaddy]

94. of course

no real argument...you just want what you want regardless of whether it exists in reality.

[Maven]

103. Well, that was my point, actually.

No real argument.

Or, actually, arguments, but strawman arguments.

Neither the OP nor any other gay or lesbian person involved in the underlying debate ever said that

1) we're the only people in the world who suffer; or

2) we can make the entire world think a certain way.

The OP was referring more specifically to the attitudes and behavior of people on DU, where, thankfully, we can expect to find people like you who are supportive. But being supportive doesn't begin and end at the ballot box. Support also includes a little consideration--yet there are quite a few here who actually went out of their way to show how little consideration they were willing to give. Some, I believe, did so because they simply wanted to "win" the argument, even when they had no personal stake in the topic to begin with; others may have done so because they've watched too much South Park and think that being a rude jackass makes them a "cultural rebel." Whatever the case, ultimately the backlash to the concern that was originally raised became antagonistic and in some cases purely mean-spirited.

[LeftishBrit]

160. But isn't this the whole point of being left-wing/ liberal: that one wants things that presently

don't exist in reality, and one is trying to make them happen?

It used to be reality that women couldn't vote.

It used to be reality that people who didn't own property couldn't vote (at least in Britain).

Until the 1960s, discrimination against non-white people was not only practiced, but official policy in some parts of the United States.

Until the 1990s, discrimination against non-white people was the keystone of official policy in South Africa.

In the UK, it was legal to discriminate against women in employment until the 1970s, and against disabled people until 1994. (Not saying that discrimination has been abolished, but since the laws were passed, it is more difficult to practice it blatantly.)

All these things were changed because of people who wanted more 'acceptance', for themselves and others, than existed in reality.

I am not gay, and I haven't seen the advertisement that aroused the controversy. However, I would argue with the view that people should not demand 'acceptance that doesn't exist in reality'. Perhaps it will eventually come to exist, if enough people do demand it.

[Duncan Grant]

105. Why are you extrapolating an "everyone has to accept me" argument? That's not what the OP says.

Assuming for a moment that this "Snickers Commercial" debacle is emblematic of the much larger issues facing GLBT people in America, let me say this:

I believe it's perfectly acceptable for GLBT people to put pressure upon the dominant culture to stop trying to define their reality (or experience). If one person says, "I find that offensive" and a another person says, "You need to lighten up" -- it's an enormously condescending remark. It also demonstrates a tremendous lack of empathy.

While I (as an out gay man) don't believe "everyone has to accept me", I do believe that it is my right to declare a boundary and ask others to respect it. There's no folly in that at all -- it's a mark of self-respect. One is free, of course, to choose their own response to my requests.

I hope more GLBT people will insist that people respect them. I certainly have no problem doing it. If others have an "internal struggle" about my assertiveness, too bad.

And while I'm at it, did you notice that you called GLBT people "unrealistic" and invoke a term like "folly" to describe what you perceived about them? Interesting, that.

[BoneDaddy]

114. I get your point

and do not disagree. I support your right to continue to educate and make people aware of the differences of sexual expression and the rights that are inherent in that.

But you miss my point. My point is that your expectations are unrealistic in today's world. does that mean you should stop what you are doing? Absolutely not. In fact, I think you should step it up.

But do me a favor... stop stating the obvious. Stop with the drama. it is what it is. You will never "force" people on an interpersonal relationship to accept your lifestyle. I certainly do and I embrace the gay, lesbian and TG community, but I think you live in a fantasy world if you think that the world, as it exists today, is ready to understand what you are saying.

By all means, keep up the good work, but I think that focus on the stupid and irrational, makes people look stupid and irrational. Focus on the legal and stop the drama about a stupid, ignoratn commercial.

My point is put your energy where it really should be instead of dedicating 50+ fucking threads to your "offense". What a waste of time.

[Duncan Grant]

118. Please consider the "hide thread" feature.

Unless, of course, you actually enjoy patronizing people who are making an effort to shift the discourse. Obviously, this is about much more than a candy bar.

I resent your continued assertion that GLBT people are unrealistic; living in a "fantasy" world, focused upon the "stupid and irrational". It's an odd form of empathy but a superb expression of paternalism.

And, I'm sure you don't need a reminder, it's not a "lifestyle".

Enjoy the safety and comfort of your subjective experience. I would if I could. I just can't escape the fact that some of us have more at stake than others. If it takes a commercial to bring these injustices to the forefront -- I say great. We need to be having this discussion.

[BoneDaddy]

127. That is fine with me

you can do whatever you want that makes you feel better or that you are making a difference I will not begrudge you that at all. But you then need to accept that the majority of people think this is a joke and do not take you or the cause seriously when things like this occur. I just think the energy be spent better elsewhere.

There seems to be this attitude that people "have to accept" you and your orientation. When it is phrased like that, you will find incredible resistance. People don't have to do anything of the sort. In an ideal world that would be true, but we don't live in an ideal world and we cannot, nor should we, legislate acceptance on an interpersonal level. We can do it in the legal areas, ie: protection from violence, unfair hiring or firing, harassment etc, but we can't make people ACCEPT. When we take that approach, people dig their heels in and the opposite occurs. Think about it, when we demand people ACCEPT us, we are not ACCEPTING them and demanding them to change.

It's not that I disagree with you, it is whether it is realistic or not.

[Duncan Grant]

140. As I said previously, I don't expect you to ACCEPT me.

This acceptance argument has been created by you. Not me. My expectation is that people RESPECT me and my inalienable rights as an American. Got it?

Please note the decision that rolled down in Michigan (2/8/07): http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2722145&mesg_id=2722145

Naturally, many GLBT people are using every opportunity to raise awareness. It's a matter of some urgency.

[BoneDaddy]

141. Again I think you are not getting it

Inherent in RESPECT is a certain amount of acceptance and the same thing applies.

You are being unrealistic about getting respect from people as that is not reality. You can demand it all you want, you still may not get it.

[Duncan Grant]

144. What's "unrealistic" about expecting the same basic rights as every other American?

It's unrealistic to argue that GLBT Americans don't deserve the same fundamental rights as heterosexuals. At its best, that argument is willful ignorance and at its worst, bigotry.

Your insistence that I'm not "getting it" is not only arrogant, it's disingenuous. We're not arguing about a snickers commercial. The subtext of our exchange seems to be very clear.

Some ally you've turned out to be, eh?

[BoneDaddy]

148. Once again you are missing my point

and see just what you want to see. You make the assumption that everyone gets respect and that your community is the only one that does not. That is not true.

The point is that there is no "right to get respect", you either get it or you don't. The expectation that the world and everyone HAS to respect you is totally irrational, I mean tell me: How are you going to ensure that everyone respects you.

I am an ally, I just think your expectations are ridiculous.

[Skittles]

137. is it too much to expect those bigots not to be DUers?

I don't think so

[bliss_eternal]

161. Then why did you respond...?

Quote:
Way too much energy is spent on this kind of drama.

Isn't taking the time to compose a response an expenditure of energy? I guess you didn't think it was such a waste. Or maybe it's a waste now that YOU'VE shared, dismissing other's feelings. Dismiss AFTER YOU share.

Kinda' contradictory in terms. Interesting.

[BoneDaddy]

163. Not really

because I see this in the context of bigger issues in DU that do need to be addressed. This overidentified sense of outrage that focuses us away from more important issues... and that does need to be said.

[bliss_eternal]

165. Your generosity is overwhelming.

Do forgive my impertinence, Great Self Appointed One.
You're the "see-er" and the "sayer."

You see the bigger issues and in your divine wisdom,
take the time to "think" for everyone.

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sniffa]

169. kick

:kick:

[Bluebear]

170. 'But you are not the only ones who suffer. Everyone does.'

Kick

[blonndee]

171. Dear gays: shut up already about your suffering

and accept it. :eyes:

[LoZoccolo]

78. self-delete

I didn't see that my question was answered upthread.

[Nikia]

79. I agree that homophobia is rooted in sexism

If the worst thing that a man can be is like a woman, what does it make women?

[newsdude]

85. We all have different issues

No one should tell you how you shouldn't be offended by.

But no one should tell me what I should be offended by.
That's where the Politically Correct backlash comes in ...

[verse18]

88. Having to prove your manliness-

This reminders me of a conversation I had with this guy who was interested in me. At the time of the conversation, I was speaking about a co-worker of his who was also my real estate agent.

Me: Did you know Brad is helping find a house? We looked this weekend, and I found a place that I really like. I'm thinking about making an offer.

D: I think Brad's kinda fruity.(totally out of the blue)

Me: Well, I don't know what to say about that. He is married to a woman and he has the most adorable 2yo daughter.

D: That doesn't mean anything.

So by now, I'm in my anti-homophobe mode.

Me: Why do you care if he's gay? I'm talking about real estate and you bring up someone's sexuality. I don't go around wondering if this person or that person is gay or straight. It's none of my business.

D: Uh, I don't know why your getting so upset.

Me: I'm not getting upset. I'm trying to figure why you are so concerned about whether Bradly is gay or not. Are you trying to fuck him? Because the only reason I would be so concerned about another person's sexual orientation is if I was trying to get in that person's pants and I would want to know if they swung my way.

D is pissed now

D: Naw, I don't want to fuck him. I can't believe you said that.

Me: You brought it up, not me.

D: I gotta go.

Me: Okay. Bye.

He didn't call me again after this.

As I processed the conversation, I thought of the irony about talking to a homophobic straight man who brags about being able to "take wood." I'll explain. This guy is a member of a Greek fraternal organization. I am a member of the sister sorority. Although it's against the law, many organizations still utilize hazing rituals. One of the hazing rituals this particular organization uses is paddling or "giving wood."

Imagine this scenario. A group of young, fresh, tender pledges told to "assume the position," bent over and grabbing their ankles. Their supple, yet firm buttocks in the air....

Sorry y'all, I got distracted.

While they are in the position another man comes behind them with a paddle, usually decorated with the organizations Greek letters, and the pledges have to prove their man enough to take the beating. If this isn't homoerotic, I don't know what is.

[stevedeshazer]

90. Well said. n/t

[and-justice-for-all]

91. Be who you are...

...Unlike fundys who hide their real selves behind a religion only to be busted later. Mike Jones, went to Haggards Church and the entire congragation THANKED HIM for what he did...

Anyway, be yourself and if someone gives you shit tell'em to go fuck themselves. People act like bullies until you stand up to them...Take no ones shit, I dont.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

95. You have a right to take offence at anything you like. But not to do more than that.

You have the right to take offence at whatsoever you choose. You don't have to seek approval from anything else, or to justify doing so, or anything else. It's a statement purely about your views on the world, and totally subjective. Other people saying "no, that's not offensive" is just silly - if it causes you offence then clearly it's offensive.

However, if you want to move from

"This offends *me*"

to

"You should take offence at this"
"Action should be taken about this"
"Saying/doing this is immoral".

or other *objective* claims then you *do* need to be able to provide justification, and it is perfectly legitimate for other people to disagree, and e.g. a poll showing that most other people don't find whatever your complaining about offensive will weaken your case.



If, as I suspect, this thread was inspired by the recent Snickers advert, then from what I've heard of it those objective claims can be made and supported perfectly well. But it would be a mistake to generalise from that specific example to "anyone who tries to defend anything that offends me is bad", and while as far as I can see you're not making that mistake, at least not overtly, a lot of people, especially on DU, do, and I worry that you're leaning in that direction.

Homophobia is a very serious problem indeed. But not everything described as homophobic is (although most are), and that's even truer of racism and sexism.

[uppityperson]

97. Me too.

hugs to you and all except the assholes.

[dsc]

100. Great thread

You said it much better than I did. I can so relate to the act like a man stuff. I still remember in first grade a PE teacher calling me a wuss in front of the whole class because I was so bad at sports. He loved to put me down because he knew that no matter what I couldn't be better at sports. To this day I don't do physical activity.

[FreeState]

102. Sports

When I was in Little League I got hit by the ball and then became afraid of the ball. Guess what my "macho" couch decided was the best way to solve the problem? He had me stand against a concrete wall and through the ball at my upper torso over and over again....

[ThomCat]

116. That's a man who should have been put in jail.

x(

[dsc]

125. damn

I hope he is in jail somewhere by now. He sure deserves it.

[Neshanic]

106. Very nice post. Thank you for stating it so clearly and simply.

[undergroundpanther]

108. Yeah I feel the same way

I hate when someone prefaces an insult with I don't want to be offensive but..
Than they insult you as if a pre-apology erases the wound of what was said. There is far too many heard hearted thick skinned lizards out there demanding the sensitive the wounded become as dense cold and callous as they are.

Don't change who you are for ANYONE.

If they don't like who you are they can grow the hell up and just let it go and get on with THEIR life, And I know they can without getting that jab in to hurt you can't they?
Keep it up be you, be true.. because there are plenty of fakers and liars out there who will try to make you conform and lie about your own sexuality, your identity and self. Don't let the fakers make you feel less than the great and gentle being you really are.And have every right to be!.Hey I'm a trans-man, but dammit I can't help it.. I love glittery stuff and glow in the dark stuff and bright colors.I'm a feline soul,.Not a typical guy either here.And if someone can't deal with that, and they wanna make themselves a problem for me they get to meet my claws to face . Take care and fuck what anyone says . What do they know about your life? They sure ain't living it!

Hugs and purrs to you!

[ismnotwasm]

112. Excellent

I just finished a bunch of research of various related topics related to women, patriarchy and misogyny. It was like coming out of an abyss when I stopped. I had to breathe.

The shining ray of hope I found in all that horrid mess was Queer theory.

When we put bullshit gender expectations on men or women, when men are degraded as being "like women" whatever form it's in, is more destructive than most people imagine.

A day or so after spending hours and hours on this self imposed research, someone sent me a picture of Hillary Clinton in a men's latrine, the implication was that she had a dick, or was male. I wrote back and told this person--actually one of those friend/acquaintances, not to send me emails like that. Told her if she wanted an explanation, I'd send her one. She did and I did.

Turns out this woman has a undergraduate degree in women's studies, works in construction, and had just kind of given in. Learned to yuk it up, "to get over it"-- just to survive, to feel a part of. She appreciated my response and my explanation, because she felt alone out there. She's not alone, and neither are you!
I appreciate your thread more than I can say.

[Morgana LaFey]

113. Thank you, thank you, thank you

:thumbsup:

here's what I posted on this very subject yesterday:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=137283&mesg_id=138585

I've posted a number of other things on the subject of gay rights (without the associated misogyny) over the last several days too. Don't know if you've seen them -- they've been in some of the threads started by others.

But you don't know how thrilled I am to see SOMEONE at DU (other than me and perhaps a handful of other feminists) KNOW and POINT OUT that homophobia couldn't exist without the underlying misogyny. Just THRILLED.

:bounce: :yourock:

[Kablooie]

115. Well, I'm not gay ---

but I don't have any hair on my chest either.

I'm just confused I guess.

[gratefultobelib]

119. Wow...I just spent about 30 minutes reading down through all of these posts, and

I feel very fortunate to be on this board with so many fine people--really, I mean that, even you curmudgeons! I have a question--how do we characterize the women who are homophobic? They're out there, and I am acquainted (distantly!) with one of them.

[JackBeck]

120. They're wannabe fruit flies.

They all want a gay boy in their lives. They just haven't figured out in what capacity us boys can fulfill them.

[HardRocker05]

122. we characterize them as stupid and weak, just like the men. nt

[gratefultobelib]

128. Oh, I agree with that and would add hateful and narrow-minded, but

I wondered how the misogynistic idea developed in this thread would be accounted for. I don't think they all could be considered self-hating.

[blonndee]

131. Interesting to think about

I would tend to disagree, I think. So many women internalize sexism to such a degree that they might never recognize it in themselves. I'm thinking specifically of right-wingers and christian conservative fundamentalists who would NEVER say (or maybe even think) that they "hate" women, but who are almost always brought up in such a way that "feminine" = different and weaker, something in need of being controlled and dominated by the (default normative) "masculine."

[MamaBear]

143. They take it as rejection.

They are attracted to a gay man's qualities, but he is not attracted to them sexually. They take this as a rejection of their femininity, and it makes them very angry. Their internal language is along the lines of --He could have had me and he chose that other guy instead? REALLY!--

At least some women feel that way. They see it as an encroachment on their entitlement to choose a mate of their liking. And what they are looking for in a guy is not something they are seeing in the available straight males in their lives.

Sometimes I think homophobic straight maies are terrified of rape, and at the same time feel they are entitled to be the "penetrator" and thus feel threatened by gay men, who not only voluntarily take on the role but also may pose a threat. I don't think much of this goes on in their consciousness, but more as shadow material.

Just some thoughts. I think all power relationships -- racism, sexism, homophobia, economic injustice, even violence -- come down to a perceived encroachment on a perceived entitlement.

[gratefultobelib]

164. I know this is an old thread, but I still want to respond to your post. And first of all,

I love the cat picture and the caption! :) It speaks for me, too. I have a bumper sticker (kind of old now) "What would Scooby Doo?" Anyway, I think you're probably right about the homophobic women feeling rejected by gay men. They probably feel some kind of unresolved anger that gay men would prefer men over women. Actually I only know one virulently homophobic woman (ex-friend, needless to say), and she's just a mean-spirited, narrow minded person. Her kids all live several states away from her. Go figure! I have had the most protracted arguments regarding gay rights with people from my former church, and they'll never get past the "hate the sin, love the sinner" mentality which I decided life was too short for me to endure anymore. Hence--my former church!

[Triana]

123. HUGE Hugs and Kudos FreeState + K & R

You hit the nail on the head - HARD.

Esp with this:

"People that don't see that it is hate against women that fuels homophobia."

But the entire post is very hard-hitting, and necessarily so. I wish it wasn't necessary. But it is.


:hug:

[Bluebear]

124. Peace & love to you. I will never look at some members here the same way again.

'People putting polls up to see if I have a right to feel offended.
People telling me to get over it, it was a joke.'

[Prophet 451]

126. "People that don't see that it is hate against women that fuels homophobia"

Can you elaborate on that one? I can see the tendancy to assume that gay men are effeminate but surely, that's more to do with our societies (often woeful) image of gender roles than it is to do with hatred of women?

In fact, thinking about it, the whole Snickers mess seems to be to do with the confusion of gender roles with sexuality and the long-standing (in our culture anyway) assumption that gay people were more strongly "genderified" (for lack of a better term) with the opposite gender and therefore took on that gender's stereotypical traits (see "If These Walls Could Talk 2 for a fairly good exploration of that). The assumption that sexuality is somehow connected with gender roles is a very old one. Untrue for the most part of course (and I speak here as a bisexual man who is also over six feet, 300 pounds, bearded, scarred and a former wrestler) but surely it's that central assumption which fuels homophobia. We saw this all the way back to the suferagette movement when women were often called lesbians (by the educated or "toms" by the uneducated) simply because they challenged the prevailing views on gender identity. Hell, one could go back further and say the same of the "new women" movement of the late Victorian era.

[KenHodson]

138. I offend the OP based on his short list

"People that don't see that it is hate against women that fuels homophobia"

I know to some degree, homophobic. I also take very deliberate re-evaluations with regard to my actions and how I think in order to overcome this and learn from it. I also think I've come a long way. I believe I am sensitive but strive to be better. This is a wedge issue in this country today and I feel very strongly for equal rights for all with NO exceptions.

But in my years of reflections, I can confidently say that my homophobia is not based on "hate against women". I do not need to elaborate, because I know this to be true.

Sorry to offend.

[bettyellen]

142. i'm curious, can you just not see the connection at all?

or do you reject this as a blanket statement because you feel you're an exception to it?

[KenHodson]

149. The blanket statement wasn't mine, it was the OP's

It is one thing to constructively explore reasons of this phobia, and quite another to label the entire lot "women haters".

[bettyellen]

151. no one accused you of making a blanket statement. i'd still like to hear your answer though

do you see the connection between homophobia and misogyny and just consider yourself an exception?

[KenHodson]

158. Sure.

Yes, I would not be surprised if some homophobes are also women-haters.

[bettyellen]

159. it would be more acurate to say they disrespect and fear feminine qualities

all the while believing that they love women. If physiology had put you on the wrong side of these guys, you'd know there's not much difference in the way they feel about anyone who doesn't want to live in their Stepford world. We're all sort of useless and frightening to them: gay people, career gals, people who won't fuck them because they can sense what neandrathals control freaks they are... We are all who these types lash out at. And if you haven't been there, I'm not surprised you're not seeing a connection. But we do.

[theHandpuppet]

132. THANK YOU

And I shouldn't have to come to DU -- a gathering place for supposedly progressive democrats -- to debate whether or not I have the right to feel offended. Before I read your thread I was about to post something on another thread that would probaly have gotten me kicked off this forum. Is my offense legitimate only if it is first validated by straight folks or even a majority of DUers? I am sickened and furious that I have to come here and read such willful cluelessness.

[Time for change]

133. I think I understand how you feel

People should try to be themselves, without feeling the necessity to act in ways that will make them appear to fit acceptable stereotypes - IMHO. I have gone through a number of occasions throughout my life when I temporarily forgot that very important principle, and when I have done so it has rarely or never worked out well.

I believe that men who make a habit of advising other people to act more "manly" have some very deep personality problems. I believe that those are the people who make up a good proportion of the dwindling number of people in this country who support our invasion and occupation of Iraq -- and war in general. Come to think of it, I believe that those are the people who make our country and our world a much uglier place to live than it would otherwise be.

I will acknowledge that in some cases such advice may be well meaning -- but well meaning or not, it is not good advice. Especially when one considers that such things as war and rape are considered "manly" by many people.

Good luck to you.

[Skittles]

136. THANK YOU FREESTATE

it shocks me how ofen an issue arises on DU that will show that even people who consider themselves progressive can be bigoted and cruel and NOT EVEN BE AWARE OF THEIR IGNORANCE.

[myrna minx]

139. Hugs FreeState.

:hug: I have spent about 45 minutes reading this thread and it is so wonderful that I am bookmarking it. The wonderful and throughful discussion that you have brought to this forum has restored my faith in DU. This has been a rough few days. :hug: Thank you for sharing such a personal story.

[MamaBear]

145. Thanks for a great thread.

:hug: It has broadened my awareness. Love and peace and long life to you, FreeState.

[Debi]

146. Add to your list

Lighten up :eyes:

:hug: to you.

d.

[bluescribbler]

150. Nobody has the right -- K&R

Nobody has the right to tell you that you shouldn't be offended.

[Orsino]

152. K&R.

"...And then they came for me..."

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

154. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mikelewis]

155. Christ didn't hate homosexuals... he was too busy chastising ...

hateful, hypocritical assholes who thought they could dictate God's plan according to their perceptions of morality.

[sniffa]

156. mmmmm, pizza

[The Count]

157. K&R - and mysogyny link to homophobia - also a revelation to me.

Been watching scrubs - where the "cool" sarcastic dr calls his (guy) underling by - many- girl names. I didn't get all the subtext before - but not I get the full extent of why this bothered me.

[xchrom]

167. spot on!

:applause:

[k_jerome]

168. amen bro. nt.