A fight with my dad and the newest excuse for the war

[kwyjibo]

It had been a while since our last conversation about politics, a subject we pretty much had to give up, as our views are so completely different that it hurts so much to think about it... but somehow, last night, it came up stemming from a joke about Fox News.

My dad looked at me with more seriousness in his eyes than I had ever seen before, and he said, "What do you think is going to happen when we leave Iraq?"

I said I didn't know, because no one can know the future. Well, he seems to have it all figured out:

We have to stay there indefinitely, because if we're not there, Iran will take over and invite Syria in, who will invite Hezbollah over, and together they'll destroy Israel and control the entire Middle East along with its oil supplies. We won't have any oil here, people won't be able to get to work and goods won't be transported across the country. Our way of life will shut down and we'll start fighting each other.

Any civil rights issues should be ignored because controlling the middle east is the most important thing right now. Anyone who thinks the President and Vice President should be impeached are just blaming America for their problems. They are not after oil and money, they are genuinely concerned about creating peace in the world. However, bumper stickers that say "Peace" are ridiculous and part of the problem.

Also, it doesn't matter that we torture people, because the kind of torture practices we use will never be as bad as what our enemies do to us.

AND - people that live in large cities in America are out of touch with nature and reality. He called Austin a piece of shit city, which really hurt.



So... obviously I am feeling a huge rift between us. I never wanted to know that someone I love so much has these beliefs. Now that I know, I can't stop thinking about it. Will someone please offer me a bit of sanity and wisdom?

[sinkingfeeling]

1. I'd of asked him what would have happened if we'd kept out of Iraq and had gone

after bin Laden. I'm sorry that your dad believes destroying the nature of America by using torture and creating an empire for the control of oil is A-OK. I'd then 'thank him' for that destruction and tell him it's not the country you want your kids to have to live in.

[iconoclastic cat]

2. That's fucking psychotic. nt

[ClassWarrior]

3. So we'll hamper peace if we talk about peace?

:eyes:

He must be an intelligent man to have raised you. Tell him to think about what he's saying.

NGU.

[AngryAmish]

4. Don't talk to him, it is clear he is scum

[CountAllVotes]

5. I used to fight with my Dad

He is gone now. However, as he got old he changed a lot. He no longer held such extreme and vile viewpoints about many things.

I don't know what to tell you to do. It is probably not possible to not discuss this with your Dad. It might be wise to limit the conversation when the topic comes up.

You can agree to disagree perhaps. Sometimes this does not work.

Just be glad you still have a Dad. I sure wish mine was still around despite some of his ways.

[EstimatedProphet]

6. There's not a whole lot you can say to that

From that argument Hitler was right to do everything he did, because he was trying to keep the German ideal way of life going.

[acmavm]

7. Your dad needs to meet my mom.

[Jensen]

25. If his Dad and your Mom get along.....

can they please adopt my Daughter!!! Thanks

[wuushew]

8. It is never right to kill for a commodity

Our government could easily feed every single needy man, woman and child in the country for a fraction of the cost of this war. Higher energy prices would result in conservation and reduce greenhouse emissions. That in itself would indirectly save lives.

All cheap oil will be gone in less than fifty years anyway so the sooner we transition to a sustainable economy the sooner we can avoid the blatant pitfalls of empire. There are no American interests overseas, only corporate interests.


Fighting "evil" is just a sexy and politically exploitive scam. If the United States exists to better mankind why not prioritize fighting malaria and AIDS?

[SoonerPride]

9. It always was about oil anyway.

oil oil oil oil

[Poll_Blind]

10. I think that a majority of Americans, a MAJORITY, if faced with...

...having to give up their energy-hogging (fuel, electricity, etc.) lifestyle would ultimately and in all seriousness choose to support imperial conquest rather than give it up. Not that they'd "like" it, but it's what they'd choose.

  I think many sense on some level that this shit with Iraq is basically our bid to control vast amounts of energy and fuel which we desire greatly. I really believe that this is a sizable part of why Boosh has been able to get away with his bullshit for so long.

  I am sad about that.

  I know a few people who are in the same space as your dad. I don't dislike them so much as pity them. But they're still a danger to me and everyone else who is trying to stop this nonsense, or at least curb it.

  His, their, main problem is that they overlay the same ideals and behavior on other countries, presuming those other countries all have goals similar to America's. I don't see this as the case.

PB

[AndyTiedye]

13. I Don't Think That is True. Which is Why the Regime Lies About the War All the Time

If what you say were true, the regime would not have to lie about the war.

[irislake]

17. If it's so darn easy to get Americans to go to war

why the need for "A New Pearl Harbor"? (9/11) Why the lies? And why the protest marches before the invasion? I know there are Americans who would go to war for the oil but I figure they are less than 30%. The Bush "base". In short --- the basest Americans with base motives. Sure they exist but most people are decent.

[Breeze54]

11. Tell him to stop drinking the red kool-aid!

Even Sen. Lugar has said we should get out of Iraq!!

http://lugar.senate.gov/press/record.cfm?id=277751">Lugar Senate Floor Speech Calls for Course Change in Iraq

Connecting our Iraq Strategy to our Vital Interests

Monday, June 25, 2007

Madam President, I rise today to offer observations on the continuing involvement of the United States in Iraq. In my judgment, our course in Iraq has lost contact with our vital national security interests in the Middle East and beyond. Our continuing absorption with military activities in Iraq is limiting our diplomatic assertiveness there and elsewhere in the world. The prospects that the current “surge” strategy will succeed in the way originally envisioned by the President are very limited within the short period framed by our own domestic political debate. And the strident, polarized nature of that debate increases the risk that our involvement in Iraq will end in a poorly planned withdrawal that undercuts our vital interests in the Middle East. Unless we recalibrate our strategy in Iraq to fit our domestic political conditions and the broader needs of U.S. national security, we risk foreign policy failures that could greatly diminish our influence in the region and the world.

The current debate on Iraq in Washington has not been conducive to a thoughtful revision of our Iraq policy. Our debate is being driven by partisan political calculations and understandable fatigue with bad news -- including deaths and injuries to Americans. We have been debating and voting on whether to fund American troops in Iraq and whether to place conditions on such funding. We have contemplated in great detail whether Iraqi success in achieving certain benchmarks should determine whether funding is approved or whether a withdrawal should commence. I would observe that none of this debate addresses our vital interests any more than they are addressed by an unquestioned devotion to an ill-defined strategy of “staying the course” in Iraq.

I speak to my fellow Senators, when I say that the President is not the only American leader who will have to make adjustments to his or her thinking. Each of us should take a step back from the sloganeering rhetoric and political opportunism that has sometimes characterized this debate. The
task of securing U.S. interests in the Middle East will be extremely difficult if Iraq policy is formulated on a partisan basis, with the protagonists on both sides ignoring the complexities at
the core of our situation.

Commentators frequently suggest that the United States has no good options in Iraq. That may be true from a certain perspective. But I believe that we do have viable options that could strengthen our position in the Middle East, and reduce the prospect of terrorism, regional war, and other calamities. But seizing these opportunities will require the President to downsize the U.S. military’s role in Iraq and place much more emphasis on diplomatic and economic options. It will also require members of Congress to be receptive to overtures by the President to construct a new policy outside the binary choice of surge versus withdrawal. We don’t owe the President our unquestioning agreement, but we do owe him and the American people our constructive engagement.

more...........

Perhaps you could read this to him.

http://www.fpif.org/fpifoped/4396">America Should Leave Iraq, but for the Right Reasons
By Adil E. Shamoo | July 16, 2007

"Our course in Iraq has lost contact with our vital national security interests in the Middle East and beyond. ...
The vitality of the U.S. economy and the economies of much of the world depend on the oil that comes from the Persian Gulf."

With these statements, Republican Sen. Richard G. Lugar of Indiana, ranking minority member of the Foreign
Relations Committee, recently came out against the war in Iraq. The speech ran 5,644 words, with frequent
mention of the importance of Middle Eastern oil.

Nowhere in the speech was there any mention of the rights and interests of the Iraqi people. Without this
recognition of the results our actions have had on the lives of Iraqis, we will continue to find ourselves
haunted by the aftermath of actions based on immoral decisions.

snip-->

Legislative leaders such as Senator Lugar need to demonstrate leadership by informing the
American people that our moral compass is working and that we should leave Iraq not simply
because it is in our interests, but because it is the right thing to do. We will only begin
to find peace in this region when our strength is shown in our moral and human acts, not just
in our military might.

We can begin by telling the American people that we will leave Iraq in an orderly and safe
manner and by apologizing to the Iraqi people for the havoc we have wreaked.

Adil E. Shamoo, who was born and raised in Baghdad, is a professor at the University
of Maryland School of Medicine and a contributor to Foreign Policy in Focus.
His e-mail is ashamoo umaryland.edu.

more...

[kwyjibo]

24. "We will only begin to find peace in this region when

our strength is shown in our moral and human acts, not just in our military might."


I think this is a concept that he will never understand. He reads history books constantly and thinks he knows human nature - we're all arrogant and selfish, we will all kill each other in the end, so whoever's the strongest will survive.

[coalition_unwilling]

46. Tell him to read Stanley Karnow's "Vietnam" (available in paperback).

When he's finished the Karnow book, have him read Neil Sheehan's "A Bright Shining Lie". The triology should conclude with David Halberstam's "The Best and the Brightest."

If he's a big fan of history, these three books about our involvement in Southeast Asia should start to correct some of his working assumptions.

[donkeyotay]

12. If you'd like a clear and convincing argument supporting withdrawal

Bill Moyer's had 2 guests on his last show that talked about it. One was an instructor at West Point, and the other was a older man who talked about Arab perceptions. They both argued that our presence there is making things worse. I imagine PBS's website has a transcript/video. It was an excellent show.

I'm offering this as a reality check for your own beliefs, not because I think you should argue politics with your dad.

[zbdent]

14. Ask him if he wanted the soldiers out of Kosovo

by Christmas ...

[eagler]

15. All I know is that we continue to lose lives every day and waste billions

which could be invested in healthcare,homelessness,improving the nation's infrastructure,rebuilding New Orleans and .... Impeachment at this point is the only answer.

[Hosnon]

16. This is what I do when people use a lot of "if this, and if this"s:

The following paragraph has at least 10 statements of fact.

"We have to stay there indefinitely, because if we're not there, (1) Iran will take over and (2) invite Syria in, (3) who will invite Hezbollah over, and (4) together they'll destroy Israel and (5) control the entire Middle East along with its oil supplies. (6) We won't have any oil here, (7) people won't be able to get to work and (8) goods won't be transported across the country. (9) Our way of life will shut down and (10) we'll start fighting each other."

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say each one has a 75% chance of occurring (this is rough because the probabilities are not independent of one another but such a high constant probability should overcompensate, on average).

(3/4)^10 = 0.0563135147 = 5.63% (thanks Google).

So, even if each of these events is overwhelmingly likely to occur (75%), the chance of all of them occuring together is 6%. I'm sure a statistician or somebody (perhaps BlooinBloo) could be more accurate as the percentages would likely change for some as they are more likely to occur following the happening of a preceding event, e.g., the chances of 2 are higher if 1 takes place. Even so, I'd group 1-3 together, 4 and 5 together, and 6-10 together. Assuming the odds increase 5% as the sequence plays out, that still leaves a 13% chance - and, again, assuming that 1, 4 and 6 have a 75% chance of occurring as of right now, the status quo.

Edit: Content and style.

[Bryn]

18. I completely understand where you're coming from

My mother and my two sisters whom I love very much are Bush lovers and they keep on justifying everything on Iraq War. "So women won't end up wearing veils here in America". "The reason Bush has low approval rate is because he is so strong." "He's a man of God." You'd think they actually think Bush is the Messiah. Sometimes I get so disgusted that I want to get away from my Freeper family. It seems like ever since Bush stole Presidency, he has been tearing families and friends apart.

[Breeze54]

19. The same thing happened during the Vietnam War.

Many families were divided. Parents against college age kids and visa versa, etc.

Although I can't stomach the 'Liar-in-Chief', I think war is the divider, the common denominator.

Hang in there. :hug:

[kwyjibo]

26. The young people were right during that time - it was a waste of thousands of lives

My dad doesn't think there's anything to be learned from youth. I think that's one of his biggest mistakes. My opinion is naive and invalid because I haven't lived as long.

Thanks, by the way. This helps.

[Bryn]

32. Though I was very young, I remember!

My beloved brother whom I was very close to got killed in Viet Nam war in 1969. Mom and two sisters (freepers) said I ought to be ashamed of myself for being against Bush and Iraq war because my brother died for "his country". But I knew my brother better than anyone in the family. He wrote from Viet Nam that he was against the war there and that he didn't believe in killing even though they were enemies. He was an humanitarian. He would have been against Bush and this illegal war. Anyway, my whole family is Southerners and originally we were ALL democrats. My Dad never changed before he passed on. My grandparents didn't change before they passed on and they loved Jimmy Carter. Mom thinks they would have moved over to the other side in support of Bush. My goodness. I honestly don't think so.

[Breeze54]

39. I'm so sorry about the loss of your brother.

:hug:

My oldest brother was drafted in '68 and my second oldest bro in '69 or '70?
I was 12 or 13 and I remember well, my Dad pounding the dinner table with his
fist and making the silverware jump up and clank back down as he and my second
oldest sister argued about Nixon and the war. It used to scare the shit out of me. :cry:
My father mellowed out after they got drafted and got orders to Vietnam and I
think that scared him and changed his tune about Vietnam but it was a long road.
I think a lot of us boomers went through that scenario.

[wuushew]

20. Are they aware that Jimmy Carter is an evangelical Christian

and opposes Bush on every single foreign policy front?

[Bryn]

28. They don't consider Carter a real Christian

Imagine that!

[coalition_unwilling]

47. I renounced several people whom I had considered friends over

the invasion\occupation of Iraq. Good riddance, I now say to myself.

[Xenotime]

21. He's fucking wrong. Iraqis want us out.

[kwyjibo]

23. I think the idea is that it's in their best interest, even if they don't want it.

It's like dealing with children. The Bush Administration is the father, and the Iraqi civilians are the children. They'll understand when they're older, right?

[Help me help Earth]

22. Dont let it get to you.

I have con friends, my dad included. I either don't talk about heated issues, or enjoy arguing about them. It depends on the person. For the sake of family harmony, I avoid arguing with my dad and stick to issues we agree on. I like to argue with my friends, in fact its half the reason I keep them around.

[Sapere aude]

27. Alone neither you nor your dad can change much so forget the politics and remain on the things you

can get along on. Soon you will no longer be able to talk because he will be gone. Spend the precious time you have getting along.

[kwyjibo]

31. Thank you. I think that is the best option for us.

[yardwork]

57. I was thinking the same thing.

My father became very conservative and narrow-minded as he grew older, and our relationship got so bad that we were almost estranged. He died rather unexpectedly after a short illness almost ten years ago. At the end, he was very grateful that the entire family was with him. It's taken me a long time to get over some things, but in the end, I always remember that my father did love me, and said so before he died.

I'm sure that your father does love you. He just has a poor way of showing it.

Please don't let your father get you down. He's speaking out of fear and confusion. :pals:

[mnhtnbb]

50. I'll second that advice. My parents were both staunch Republicans

and we eventually stopped talking politics. My brother is a Republican
and we've agreed not to discuss politics.

But my aunt and uncle are die-hard Dems and I've developed a very close
relationship with them in the last 15 years as we've come to appreciate
having family with the same political views!

[RedCappedBandit]

29. Even if your father were right..

we'd only be delaying the inevitable by controlling the oil supplies in the middle east. The real answer is to end our dependence on oil, but that isn't going to happen until we absolutely have to. This entire situation is so twisted and people don't even realize it; the fact that people still believe that Bush cares at all about bringing peace to the middle east is absolutely absurd.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. I have one answer to that... Vietnam

he is repeating talking points from.... the end of the Vietnam era, and we all know how on target they were

Your dad may be one of the 20 something percent that need a daddy to protect them, so perhaps stay out of politics.

By the way, at times I feel I am as distant from my folks as well

[SalviaBlue]

33. Isn't it ironic

Isn't it ironic that he says: "Our way of life will shut down and we'll start fighting each other."

I'm thinking that our occupation has caused the Iraqi way of life to be shut down and they are fighting each other.

I too have parents and other relatives that believe this way. It has totally affected our relationships. I have had a really hard time coming to terms with their callousness. Even though they are educated, they are dumb. All of their information comes from Fox or right wing talk radio. They scoff at any other information sources. I have given up on them.

[momophile]

34. I'm sorry to hear this and I'm right there with you

my Dad is the same way.

[beastieboy]

37. Me too. It totally sucks.

Its hard having huge philosophical differences with your folks.

[marions ghost]

35. He's got a mean streak doesn't he?

To call where you live a piece of shit city is low. When people do that, there's an underlying need to hurt, & probably this is what he does when he gets frustrated that you aren't buying his rightwing propaganda. His attitudes are typical of the alpha gorilla in midlife crisis. IMO he's gotta be in some state of inner turmoil (or low self esteem problems) if he's STILL clinging to those fond delusions about the legitimacy of US/Bush World Domination. Most Republicans, or shall we say Bush voters, with any capacity for reflection are starting to get kind of guilty...and quiet.

Ask yourself if you really need to bother arguing with your Dad. If he ever gets his head rearranged, it's not going to be you who does it. He's got to be in control. Since he can't do his fatherly thing of passing on his wisdom to you...since you don't buy it...maybe you could work on some other way you can connect positively. Ask for advice on some other more practical matters. Try to make him laugh. He needs to lighten up. What he's going to find out is that all these trumped-up divisions are really so stupid in the end. They should never destroy families. You're wiser than he is now, so you're the one who needs to have the long-range view. Accept that you have the greater perception, but don't be pompous about it. Sometimes you have to just move on from the parts of your parents you really don't like, and this may be one of those times. It involves a conscious letting go on your part, if you see what I mean.

My 2 cents. This is what my Mom taught me (about rightwingers or inflexible thinkers in the family that I kept running up against) --and it has worked for me. My Mom was a brilliant psychologist, and she healed many souls. Even some of the more rigid thinkers in the family have come around to her way of thinking later on. But they don't always admit it.

[kwyjibo]

36. He keeps it all inside.

It occasionally comes out like last night, but usually he is very laid back and easygoing. He loves animals and children. But he spends too much time alone.

I wouldn't say he's mean, but he is becoming bitter. He's very cynical, which makes me so sad.

I don't need to bother arguing with him, and will never bring the subject up again. Unless, god forbid, he starts talking this way in front of my kids someday (if I ever have them). I don't think he would do that though.

Thanks for the advice. I try to make him laugh whenever I can and will make his happiness and lightheartedness my focus in our relationship, rather than his understanding.

[shimmergal]

52. It sounds like he needs more friends.

Could he find any local non-political group that he could join so he'd see other people regularly?

That's the biggest difference, usually, in whether or not a person likes the place where they're living...just whether they have friends there.

[Pyrzqxgl]

58. Put your Dad on as many mailing lists that send material affirming your way of thinking

Send him gift subs to magazines on the left. He'll throw some of them away but eventually he'll start to read some of them too. I did that
with my Dad back in the Viet Nam war era and eventually brought him around. It might cost you a little but for me at least it was worth it
to have a Dad I could talk to about politics that I more or less agreed with.

[marions ghost]

61. I dunno

sounds like you had a positive experience and turned your Dad around with the literature campaign, but some people are very stubborn about giving up their allegiances. It's like they feel they would be disloyal, giving up on their team when the team is down & all that. That stubborn kind of blind loyalty is awfully hard to get through.

These serious Bushbots have INVESTED in this whole philosophy, this whole mindset. They really do believe it's going to save the world. They have also been indoctrinated with decades of anti-Liberalism by now. Do you think the rightwing talk radio and all that was as influential as it is now --during Vietnam? It's like a cult now. It fulfills a deep need for social bonding.

A friend of mine tried what you're talking about. He gave his Bush lovin Dad an Al Franken book for Christmas. When this friend's birthday came around in Feb, he got the *like new* Al Franken book all cheerfully wrapped back again for his birthday. Ha ha...big joke. There was never any opening for discussion. Some people are not very approachable that way. THEY have to come around themselves. And some do eventually I think.

But on the other hand, I have heard of those who have renounced King George & the Neocons after reading stuff. So it may be worth a try. But it's delicate. Nobody likes to feel like their kids want to change how they fundamentally see themselves. These days people are sensitive to being reprogrammed & egos are so fragile. And those who get sound bites from Fox and talk radio might not be receptive to reading. They might be more likely to watch KO even. I wish we did have a really liberal TV network to oppose Fox--then at least people could check the other side out. Right now, we really don't have an effective counter to the MSM rightwing spin as far as the TV watching public is concerned.

[sandnsea]

38. He has correctly identified the problem

Oil has created a dangerous geopolitical mess in the ME.

He has incorrectly identified the solution - being alternative energy development, new technologies to reduce usage, higher CAFE standards; and most importantly, being the beacon that stands for personal freedom that gives individuals hope instead of installing these ME dictators who opress their people and make them hate US.

[The Stranger]

40. SEND IN THE UNITED NATIONS.

[Subdivisions]

41. Austin is not a piece of shit city.

I've lived there and loved it and I also live only a couple hours north of Austin right now and have been known to go there simply BECAUSE it's Austin.

Love 6th Street! Margaritas anyone?

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. That's their latest talking point

"What do you think is going to happen when we leave Iraq?"

Here's how I answer: Why didn't you ask what would happen to Iraq BEFORE we attacked? Were you so convinced there were WMDs there that it didn't matter what kind of damage we caused or how many people we killed? Was Sadaam really that evil? So since you obviously didn't care about the people of Iraq BEFORE we invaded, why in the world should I believe you care now???

[kwyjibo]

44. "I'm ready to get in there and find those WMDs"

is exactly what he said when we talked before the war started. He was wrong, but refuses to admit it.

[JHB]

43. Geez, he's off in "piss-in-my-pants"-fantasy land

I heard this crap back in 1990, about how Saddam would just sweep up one area after another until he's running half the world. No sense of cultural differences, or even actual military capabilities and logistics. Just 100% pre-chewed propaganda.

And the same back in the Cold War: most of the neocons got their start feeding fears of The Invincible Soviets Ready to Take Over the World At Any Moment, By Any Means.

I'm afraid I can't help you much. The only proper responses I can think of all cross the "You do not talk to your parents that way" line.

[Mr. Ected]

45. Tell Your Father This:

Dad, I know you're also fed up with illegal immigration. You're probably aware of the vast oil reserves in Mexico. In anticipation of pulling out of Iraq, why don't you and your Republican buddies urge your Congressporkers and President Bushler to strike a deal with Bushler's good friends in the Mexican government, a kind of tit for tat offering, whereby we replace our import oil from the Middle East with good old crude from Mexico?

At least it would distract him from his unfounded and ridiculous arguments about staying in Iraq.

[Madspirit]

48. I'm Also In Austin!

Take your dad, add in a BUNCH OF horrid abuse, stir and you have my dad. Thus my leaving home at 15. (I'm 53 now.) Separating from my parents was the BEST thing I EVER did. I visited them about once a year until they died. I conversed superficially with them and when they died, they died never really knowing me. ...and that was THEIR doing, THEIR choice, THEIR loss.

Just sayin'...

I know this distresses you but truthfully, there isn't much you can do about it. My dad actually got more liberal before he died but...a little too little and a little too late.

Lee

[kwyjibo]

54. I'm so sorry

What a horrible thing to have to go through...

My parents were divorced so I didn't see my dad very often, especially after age 7 when he moved away. Thinking about it now though - maybe it's a good thing I didn't grow up in a house with him. I may have grown up with those same values and never have known what it's like to be a hopeful idealist. I'd rather have faith in humanity than be certain that we're all going to kill each other off.

[orleans]

49. DAD! TURN THAT GODDAMN FOX NEWS OFF!

IT'S FUCKING WITH YOUR MIND.

at least that's what i would say to my father.
i'd also ask since when did he get to be such a war whore.

[Canuckistanian]

51. That's what I would say

Sometimes, a radical intervention is needed. It seems obvious where he gets 95% of his news.

[CANDO]

53. I've noticed they are openly admitting now that Iraq is/was about OIL.

But it's taken them how many years and how many other talking point excuses/justifications before they've engaged their brains onto the truth. But in the end, they will never admit to the idea it never should have been.

[ceile]

55. Well, anyone who says Austin is a piece of shit city is obviously

deranged and in serious denial.
Sorry, this person is your dad.

[JuniperLea]

56. Don't give up

My rabid, life-long Republican dad went from trying to tell me that Michael Moore was the devil and there were at least 52 lies in that movie (you know the drill... I'm sure you saw the email) to understanding how so many of us were duped by Bush. Well, not me:) Probably not you either. But that is a huge thing for my dad to say. He's watched Moore's film now... and I've pretty much hacked away at those "52 lies" using mainly government websites, and links to his beloved CNN... he's on our side now. Fully on our side.

Love your father... reason with him... let him know you love him and you are afraid for him, yourself, and all of us. Do it in a kind, gentle way.

Don't give up.

[in_cog_ni_to]

59. He contradicted himself! First he says we have to stay and protect the OIL so Iran and Syria won't

get it and then he says "They are not after oil and money, they are genuinely concerned about creating peace in the world."

HUH?:crazy:

[jobycom]

60. He insulted AUSTIN?! Must be an Aggie!!

And when did we become a "large city?"

Sorry about your dad. Mine is ashamed of me for being an atheist. Aside from that, we get along. My parents used to be Republicans, and we fought all the time over Reagan, then Bush. But by the end of Bush, they started to soften a little. Now my mother's favorite shirt says "John Kerry," and she got a thrill wearing it around the coast (they still live in Mississippi, where I'm from originally) after Katrina.

Parents can't give up their kids. They just can't. No matter how old, they feel they have to correct you. Fight the battles for your independence, but try not to take it as personally as they seem to mean it. Easy to say--I know, I've been there often.

Oh yeah, and he's forgetting about the Sunnis and the Kurds. If we can't control Iraq, Iran can't, either. And anyway, there are other countries involved--Turkey, Saudi Arabia, most of the rest of the world--who don't want the Middle East to unite under Shi'i Iran. Not to mention, all exit plans call for turning peace-keeping efforts over to an international organization until a viable government is established. His understanding of power and politics is sophomoric. Like those who claimed that diplomatic efforts in the former Yugoslavia were wasted.