When health initiatives get Nazi

[undergroundpanther]

Seems America is a country who will risk actual health for the appearance of health,and this is partly where fat bashing comes from.
Fat bashing has an ugly history and ugly effects.

The Nazis were the first to do public health campaigns and to demonize smoking overwieght and to encourage organic foods.
Nazis were OBESSESSED over"health" appearance and bodies.
The confluence of anti-humanist dogma with a fetishization of natural ‘purity’ provided not merely a rationale but an incentive for the Third Reich’s most heinous crimes.
Tobacco was opposed by racial hygienists fearing the corruption of the German "germ plasm" (i.e., genetic material), by industrial hygienists fearing a reduction of people's capacity to work, by nurses and midwives fearing harm to the "maternal organism." Tobacco was said to be a "corrupting force in a rotting civilization that has become lazy." (and lazy leads right to you guessed it.."fat.")
Today's ''purists'' need not be fascists to sanction questionable measures on behalf of apparently unquestionable goals. Even in a democracy, ''war,'' whether actual or metaphorical, justifies the identification of ''enemies'' and the corrosion of normal scruples.
http://www.nytimes.com/books/99/05/23/reviews/990523.23...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/new...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Why did nearly half of all German physicians join the Nazi party?
I don't think it was the tirades of Julius Streicher in Der Stürmer that attracted their interest, but rather the promises of Nazi leaders to solve Germany's problems medically, surgically. The Nazi state was supposed to be a hygienic state; Nazism was supposed to be "applied biology" Nazi medical ethics was underpinned by sexist paternalism, Nordic supremacy, cleanliness, punctuality, orderliness,12 unquestioned obedience to authority, and public and environmental health. It tended to emphasize preventive medicine, cost efficiency, the natural lifestyle, and the superiority of the productive worker.
Nazi medical crimes simply don't make sense without this conception of healthy and diseased races, lives worthy and unworthy of living.
http://www.adl.org/Braun/dim_14_1_nazi_med.asp

("Ethics" Like..fat people don't "deserve" medicaid,until they lose weight,
You hear it in replies linked to here, scroll down.
http://www.thehealthcareblog.com/the_health_care_blog/2...
And nazi arguments here that fat people raise costs for everyone
http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/12/04/PM2...
%"ethics like fat poor people on welfare are lazy they don't deserve to have__) (It is SCARY to see how much Americans even so called liberals still reflect this Nazi idealogy. Notice when democrat politicans speak it's always the working class mentioned ,but the poor they get ignored..Remember the NOLA superdome? People blindly attack impurity and weakness with an almost zealot,"irresponsible purity") And here the eugenics begin.. Fat people are impure, diseased unfit, deviant and UNPRODUCTIVE and must not be allowed to raise children!The kid might grow up FAT! http://www.thekansascitychannel.com/news/13763346/detai...
Fat is now a contagion,a disease now ,Avoid contact with all fat people.. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/25/health/25cnd-fat.html
Fear the fat and Hate the whipped cream..Nazi purity bullshit lives in America!
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/gate/archive/2...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nazi Ernst Haeckel, for instance, coined the term “ecology,” and was also one of the prominent early figures in forming Nazi ideology.The experience of the “Green Wing” of the Nazi party illustrates that the basic human love for land can be just as easily manipulated and perverted as the love for family; just as the state can form itself into a giant, dysfunctional and abusive family, so, too, can the natural human love for the ecology that supports us be perverted to serve the interests of the state—then, it is called “nationalism” or “patriotism.” Ask a “patriot” what they love about their country, and the most honest answers you’ll recieve will revolve around love of their homeland, or love of principles that a state supposedly champions.http://anthropik.com/2007/06/nine-nations-bioregionalis... /
Adolf Hitler was the star performer in anti-smoking propaganda. As one magazine stated, “Brother national socialist, do you know that your Führer is against smoking and thinks that every German is responsible to the whole people for all his deeds and missions, and does not have the right to damage his body with drugs?(here began the War on Drugs)
Smoking was only one of the health related behaviours that received attention in Nazi Germany. Fruit and vegetable consumption was encouraged, as was the use of wholemeal bread and the avoidance of fat.Erwin Liek, predicted that cancer would come to be seen as a product of diet.2 The consumption of whipped cream seems to have been a particular target of disapproval. The official newspaper of the SS, Das Schwarzes Korps, reported on German tourists in Austrian coffee houses and said that anyone would “think Greater Germany was only created so that this raving Philistine rabble can wolf whipped cream.” A prominent promilitarist slogan read, “Fighting power or whipped cream?” http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?art...

Fear of Fat was rampant among Good Germans.And so it is here in America, now.Listen to the fat phobics arguments for making fat people thin,or be second class citizens .Shit Like..Fat people cost everyone more in insurance costs when people let themselves go fat,by their lifestyle choices".As if me being a bit overweight imperils every other American's access to Healthcare.(protect the homeland by being pure and hating fat and making fat people a symbol of americans collective disgust, creeping fear and hate of the REAL problems in this country Abuse, toxic personalites,callousness political and cultural corruption and social hierarchy.._
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Poor people and obesity,Fancy THIS it effects hispanics andf blacks more than whites...Sounds like someone is priming the public for eugenics to me.Too Nazi.Racism

http://www.healthday.com/Article.asp?AID=600517

Sexism by body weight risk
http://www.physorg.com/news97950076.html
http://www.americanpoems.com/poets/Marge-Piercy/17198
Classism,another proof poor people are lazy, FAT.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/01/0401050712...
Parents teach thier children well to hate fat..
http://her.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/15/2/145


The CDC LIED and hyped up statistics about death by obesity
http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2005/04/food_nazi...
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/extract/293/3/293
Sadly that admission was barely heard when it came out, and it is long forgotten news now..and still the sadistic fat bashing goes on,In the persuit of national utilitarianism and "purity".
The patriarchical machine leftover from nazi idealogy runs again
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0238,fleming,38410,1.h...

The fetid and duplicitous atmosphere of Nazi Germany encouraged the more dubious elements of reconstructive surgery. It had its role in manufacturing Hitler’s perfect military machine; in 1936 a new law authorized the state to reconstruct a soldier’s body “against his will if necessary, as to extract from it its maximum fitness.” http://www.pfc.org.uk/node/21
(Steroids and sports stars in the news..is it any wonder?)

And some of the fears over fat and desire for lean might symbolically keeping THIS(linked below) out of our social collective awareness.We have taken too much and we may need to become fit to defend the wealthy ones hoarded stuff to"protect our "way of life" of unlimited taking..and the shame of it makes you want to purge..

Psych-op for nonstop hyper extraction
Unlimited and therefore terminal extraction cannot occur without controlling the minds of the population. Almost every sports-hero and film-star promotes consumption and therefore extraction, impressing upon the adulating mind that success means having and using rather than being and doing. ..Growth and extraction were absolutely unquestioned.
http://www.culturechange.org/cms/index.php?option=com_c...
http://newhumanist.org.uk/1415
Creating a consumer...Click around awhile on this site good stuff.
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Consumption/Ri...

[ninkasi]

1. About fat bashing

I am not fat. I am on the slender side. One of the people I love the most in this world is my cousin, almost a year younger than me. We were together a lot growing up, and I saw her father destroy her self-esteem, and treat her like shit. He was a large man, 6'4", and while not fat, large. I saw him dish out meals, which he expected his children to eat. Every last scrap, whether they wanted it or not.

My beautiful cousin had committed the unforgivable sin of being the first child, but a female, not the male he had hoped for. Just to give you a perspective of how things were in those days, I am 64, and she is 63. We were both born in Houston, Tx., which was very conservative.

So, today, my cousin is obese. She has been so for many years. In my eyes, to see her is to see the face of somebody who is like a sister to me...I had 4 brothers, so she is truly my sister. I would do anything in the world for her. I saw the pain that was inflicted on her her whole life. I saw the humiliation she endured. I saw her eat to build a wall between herself, and the rest of the world.

Bashing a fat person is repugnant to me. There are sometimes factors which would involve therapists, and anti-depressants, to resolve. Fat is not always somebody who has no self control, or somebody who is greedy, or any of the other stereotypes society holds. Sometimes, it's a form of protecting oneself from cruelty, or rejection.

I'm sorry for the rant, but cruelty to wards people who are overweight bothers me a lot. It's not always an issue of self-control. I can only see people through the eyes of how much I I love them. I love my cousin with all my heart. If I called her right now, and told her that I needed her, she would be here. The one and only reason I would wish her to lose weight is to help her health. As far as the eyes I see her with, she is, and always has been, one of the most beautiful people I've ever had the good fortune to know.

[undergroundpanther]

3. Thanks

It's not always an issue of self-control.
THANK YOU!!


I can only see people through the eyes of how much I I love them.

And this is something WE ALL need to cultivate.



I love my cousin with all my heart. If I called her right now, and told her that I needed her, she would be here. The one and only reason I would wish her to lose weight is to help her health.
And if she has health problems are you willing to accept the idea it might not be due to her being fat?
But to stress or trauma, age,or maybe other things not really dependant on body size??

What bothers me is this people jump on weight lose weight and that'll fix it bandwagon .They don't understand dieting can be truly dangerous to your health, for real. My ex lost weight and it killed his gall bladder he had to get it taken out, the doctor told him it was from dieting. Our fat phobic culture just doesn't seem to register being fat is a complicated thing.And making the fat go away doesn't always fix health issues.Our culture is too fat phobic to think clearly on the causes of weight gain and what weight loss does or how it happens..There is old Nazi ideology still kicking in some peoples prejudices.And the ones who are not prejudiced can pick up those toxic beliefs that originated with the "purity" crap and not realize they did.


As far as the eyes I see her with, she is, and always has been, one of the most beautiful people I've ever had the good fortune to know.

I am so glad you love her,she is helped more by your love than any advice and your worries about her health. Love her for who she is and let her be instead of coloring that love with what you fear she might become if she does not do what you think she needs to do. The love cannot flourish where there is control.All I am saying is step outside of your perspective and love her even more love her enough to let her go her way.She may lose weight but she may not,when you are old,will the good times you had with her shine forth, or the fact she was fat and you were afraid matter more?? It's up to you.

[liberaldemocrat7]

13. Tobacco appears a poor attempt substituting for tranquilizers.

Many people smoke because of anxiety and nervousness. They self medicate like they do with alcohol and marijuana.

People who smoke tobacco kill themselves slowly. If a person wants to smoke, that appears fine with me, but not in my presence. The liars in the tobacco industry will tell you second hand smoke does not kill people over the years. It does, and I'm not going to take any chances. I gave up smoking a pipe in the 1970's after my hands shook from smoking pipe tobacco.

Since alcohol does not give off any significant molecules like tobacco, alcohol should stay legal.

[Zodiak]

19. Actually, ethanol funes are quite irritating

I should know since I work over them for hours on end as an entomologist. It will dry your throat up and make you more prone to disease. I get a cold or the flu every time I spend more than a day or two over the dissecting scope (since you are using anecdotal evidence, might as well pitch in my own).

So at least hard liquor and perfumes could be put in a similar category.

You should find another criterion if you want to go for consistency.

Smoke can never exceed the mass of the object being burned (conservation of mass and energy), so consider how much is the max a smoker can put out in a day versus, say, the average trip to the convenience store in your car.

People need to get a perspective....some risks are greatly amplified compared to their actual risk (like terrorism) while others are ignored that pose tremendous risks (like global warming). The only reason there is a focus on it now is because it is being hyped. But mercury in our fish supply...well, these companies gotta turn a buck, right...and if you don't fish...who cares?

[Zodiak]

18. My wife is a large, beautiful woman

whom I love with every fiber of my being. I am "normal" (whatever the hell that means) weight.

The stories she told me about the abuse others put her through because of her plumpness, from her family, her friends, her teachers, her coworkers, and complete strangers disgusted me to no end. There is no justification for this judgemental, callous behavior towards another human being.

It disgusts me far more than the most corpulent shut-in could possibly do.

You know what? *I* am the one who had a heat attack, not my wife. *I* am the one who has trouble climbing 5-6 flights of stairs, not my wife.

And now we are going to CODIFY this prejudice in the private sector. Fuck you, assholes. In the end, your inside is far more ugly than anyone's outside could ever be. If we fail to stop this rush to single poeple out, I hope these body image freaks come for you next.

[ninkasi]

24. You and your wife are both lucky

to have each other, and to value the things that matter most in life. The reason I'm so protective of my cousin, is that she was overweight even when we were growing up, and I could see how hurt she got by snide remarks, and people openly laughing at her.

Her dad killed any chance she ever had to develop normal self-esteem, so our grandmother, and I, became extremely protective of her. My grandmother and I would drive out to pick her up sometimes on Friday evenings, after school, so that she could spend the night. Sometimes, she couldn't do anything but cry during the whole trip, because she could finally let all of her pain out.

Do you want to know the irony of all of the emotional abuse? Her younger brother, the crown prince, is detached, and pretty much ignores their parents, who are now in their 80's. She also has one other younger brother and sister, who were pretty much accepted by their dad, because he had his male heir. Of all four children, my cousin is the ONLY one who helps care for their parents.

She has an ailing husband, too, and she and her husband are in their sixties. So she tries to work, take care of her husband and parents, and the stress is going to kill her. Sometimes she finds time to come visit, my home is her hideaway. She knows without question that as long as I have a home, she is welcome to live in it. I have tried to help her financially, although my income is extremely limited, but she's too proud to take it.

People who feel free to bash overweight people are cruel, insensitive, and uncaring. It's much more than not having will power for some overweight people, in some cases, food is the only comfort they have in an ever-growing, more cold, cruel world. I am so glad you and your wife have each other. Oh, and for what it's worth, my husband absolutely adores her, and says that she has the most beautiful laugh he's ever heard. He frequently says he wishes she'd drop by more often, because he loves the laughter, and the hugs.

[Zodiak]

25. You are a blessing to her, I'm sure

My wife was raised by her grandparents, and they were the ones that went after her constantly about her body image, as well as her aunts and uncles. Her mother never cared, giving her up after extensive cocaine binging. Her father was forcefully kept away by the granparents (who are just nasty people....seriously).

She got back together with her father, and her new family accepts her exactly as she is. But she has terrible bouts of anxiety and depression from all of the abuse...and her relationship to food is unhealthy (she doesn't eat enough). There is a bit more sad crap, but who cares about the details?

The point is, anyone wants to hurl a judgemental statement towards a person based on their body weight can just sit on a stick. You jagoffs don't know one iota of the story, and if you looked carefully...that person may not be fat because of their failings....but because of assholes like YOU!

Thank the heavens that there are lots of us that just don't give a crap about those things. My wife is beautiful, intelligent, and the most loving person I know in my life.

And she is a DUer.

[eridani]

26. Well, being male is definitely a risk factor for earlier heart attacks

So is male pattern baldness. Maybe you should wear a toupee and consider a sex change? :sarcasm: Just kidding of course--it's exactly this type of illogical nonsense that bolsters fat-bashing.

[Beerboy]

2. Holy linkapalooza.

It's a free country so far, but maybe not for much longer. Be fat if you want, why would it be anyone else's business?
Speaking of fat Nazis (Hermann Goering), he thought he could negotiate a separate peace on behalf of the Third Reich to the Allies simply because he was fat and jovial. I'm paraphrasing, but his train of thought was that everyone hated Hitler and Goebbels, but the Allies had spent years poking fun at 'Der Dicke', 'the Fat One', and he thought that as a figure of ridicule, he would receive more favorable terms than Hitler might.
Hitler in his last hours found out and had Goering stripped of his remaining powers and sent an SS hit squad to find and execute him. The Allies found him first, tried him, then sentenced him to Death at the gallows.
That would've been a challenge for Britain's master hangman, but Goering saved him the trouble and snacked on some cyanide.

[undergroundpanther]

5. yeah

It's a free country so far, but maybe not for much longer. Be fat if you want, why would it be anyone else's business?

The health of the German people was considered a state resource, as these slogans made clear:

Your body belongs to the nation!

Your body belongs to the Fuhrer!

You have a duty to be healthy!

Food is not a private matter!

People nowadays are getting caught up in the idea that a fat person drains the economy So your diet is no longer personal.. These people so "concerned are the ones that make YOU being fata national crisis.They'll attempt to control fat people,take away thier rights,
A child is taken from parents because the kid is fat,
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6834940/

While a scary amount of sexually abused and battered kids go home to thier abusers.( hmm..if they got fat they might be more able to be safe?)
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9C04E4D91638F934A25757C0A965948260


There are the food police trying to control everyone because they think certain lifestyles others have impacts them somehow.It has a very selfish kind of nationalism underlying it all,a toxic vanity.Nazi ideology taught this idea that every german had to be pure in their lifestyles because each german was responsible for the entire german race's "quality" And that motivated the healthy lifestyle stuff for good germans and sterilizations and death for the"unfit" that may"pollute" the German stock.
Hence the Slogans..
Your body belongs to the nation!

Your body belongs to the Fuhrer!

You have a duty to be healthy!

Food is not a private matter!

[Beerboy]

9. I understand your point, and you've obviously researched it...

My personal point remains that I don't care if anyone's fat, but it would be disturbing to see the Federal Government start to "nudge" the overweight into a direction on their agenda. That's where the ominous fascistic overtones become more clear. It's all good for now, as long as you don't choose to smoke. Smokers are a horrible example for the children as they spew their noxious illegal poisons. Don't worry, for now food is a private matter, it's the criminal class of smokers who have betrayed the Nation who shall be brought to heel...

[undergroundpanther]

10. Smokers are treated like second class citizens.

But having to smoke out of public areas and outside is not part of that,allergies can't be helped and I'm a non smoker but my roommate smokes. I just ask him to limit how many he smokes inside because it hurts my eyes and throat.I don't think it's right to have him go out in blizzards or raging thunderstorms to smoke if I have no irritation symoptoms..

The bigotry about"health' and employers is the worst,for smokers and that is just terrible.
Fat people get it too it's just less visible and in a fat phobic culture people ARE inclined to look the other way.
It's a sad thing when women say they'd rather be mean or get cancer than to be fat.And some people smoke because it keeps them thin.

[Beerboy]

14. To be fair,

smoking is something anyone can stop. Body size/shape isn't something that automatically conforms to society's ideal despite one's efforts. But since I'm already a repugnant outcast fat-fuck from society, the public smoking is that much sweeter. I know it's not good for me, but fuck it, this is still a free country in-name-only for just a little while longer, so I'll indulge myself. I pay my own way.

[glowing]

4. We shouldn't bash anyone... Love thy neighbor and do unto others..

But having access to healthy, organic, nutritious foods would help people live healthier lives. Our foods are geneticly modified and chemically enhanced. I wouldn't describe myself as a Nazi, believe me a batch of cookies or an occasional cake is actually baked at our home, but I choose to use organic foods... Health is mind, body, and spirit... they all have to be maintained in order to be well. And I don't think health is measured by the size of your pants, but maintaining your wellness by incorporating the 3 will tend to leave your britches on the smaller side.

[Beerboy]

6. Health is mind, body, and spirit-

That seems almost as the wisdom of ancient Chinese and I'll listen to that, but I won't buy anything from contemporary China if I can help it. Modern China can put a funky feng-shue on your ass if you eat of it.

[undergroundpanther]

8. I found

When I Accepted my size,quit dieting,and just ate when I wanted food, stopped when I was full, and IGNORED every piece of unwanted advice from other people about food diets exercise, yadda yadda and basically told them to leave me the fuck alone and shut the hell up,and I didn't talk about diets weight food or no food exercise ,and didn't hand around people who did and all that SHIT...

I lost a significant amount.I do not weigh,No scales.No worrying about pants. I only knew I lost because my doctor weighs me.I say fuck the home scale tyranny. Shame doesn't help anyone.

Fuck the food Nazis..Get over the damn fat phobic crap before we as a country lose MORE rights.This phobia needs to END.
So I tell health nuts,and body bigots Go eat a cupcake and get out of my face skinny ass.

Because my health has improved by SHUTTING THEM OUT..

Nothing else has worked like acceptance of my size and listening to my body and stopping playing the food control games,and shaming myself.I treat my self with more kindness.

[Beerboy]

11. Haha! Go eat a cupcake, get outta my face!

Love it! But I'm sure you're well aware there is a nexus between weight and health insurance premiums, just as there rightly is for drinkers and smokers. If you're all 3 like me, well they can kiss my fat white ass. Good luck to the Feds if they think they can complete their round-ups after failed "nudging".
Fat-Nazis and Nicotine-Nazis suck, plain and simple.

[glowing]

16. I read a study.... and don't ask me to find it now, that said people

who didn't worry about their weight or being fat, usually weren't... guilt my play a big factor in placing those un-wanted love handles. (but this just factors back into a healthy mind and spirit).

[undergroundpanther]

7. Not always

My sister is vegetarian and all organic and she is fat .
Sometimes a "healthy lifestyle" does not translate into better health. Thin people are more prone to certain health problems that fat people aren't.

http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/gaesser/obesity.htm#THINNER%20IS%20NOT%20NECESSARILY%20HEALTHIER

Diets are not the answer if it was everyone would be thin by now.
http://www.urge.co.nz/Image/Image.asp?SECID=1&TID=8&StID=40

[glowing]

17. Its the overall picture that isimportant.... Eating a balanced diet,

excercising, laughing, meditation... all these things will equal wellness... The idea that a perfect body is a size 0 is just plain wrong. You are right, not everyone is going to be thin and petit. Our genetic make-up has a bit to do with that. The idea that happiness will be achieved with the perfect hollywood body is so false and so tragic...

[eridani]

27. Smaller than you would otherwise be is still fat for plenty of people

The benefits of organic food are by no means mediated by weight loss.

[Norquist Nemesis]

12. I'm pissed about the $6.10 carton increase

Yeah, I smoke...so fuck you (generically) with all of the haters on that "issue". Now for some reality on it.

Increasingly, I can't smoke anywhere but maybe my car and inside my house. Okay, fine. I'll quit going to restaurants. (No money lost there, apparently. Even though our bill is rarely under $120 and hubby is quite the generous tipper...sometimes as much as 30%.) No harm, no foul. I'll just cook my food on the grill or stove and a smile will break out over the money I'm saving. Besides, I'd MUCH rather give my hard earned dollars to a chain store that can offer me lower prices and not have to worry about supporting low-wage earners with such a silly thing as tips, mot to mention supporting small business owners through patronage. No harm, no foul. :eyes:

Oh, and if I decide next week I'm quitting for whatever the reason (health, getting too expensive, why don't they just make it the fuck illegal instead of quartering me off :grr: ) then I no longer have to worry about the high price I'm paying...to support the SCHIP program. What the fuck? My additional $6.10 per carton is designated to be the funds to support SCHIP and at every turn I'm being restricted, scorned and demonized? And if I quit smoking tomorrow, and 10,000 other smokers are with me, that's $31,720,317 in lost "support" for the SCHIP (based on $6.10 x 10,0001 smokers x 52 weeks average per year). Does this whole thing make sense?????

Don't like smoking? Fine. Make it illegal. But quit the crap on taxing smokers to fund programs like SCHOP while at the same time taking chunks out of the liberty of smokers!!

(*sigh* No doubt, I'm going to get flamed like a Weber full of lighter fluid over the above, and Lord knows I stay out of the 'smoking is evil' threads... but dammit! Enough is enough! The saddest thing is that the demograpics for smokers is that this, once again, preys on a tax-to-the-max class of people who can least afford it to fund those programs. Programs like SCHIP should NOT be funded on that backs of smokers--and THAT is the bottom line.)

[Beerboy]

15. I don't mean to thread-jack Underground Panther's

OP, but you can smoke MUCH cheaper by rolling your own. You can make your own cigs for 70 cents/pack, no shit. Buying cigs at the gas station is simply insane, especially if you're buying gas too.

[eridani]

28. Tobacco subsidies have been eliminated now

For people who smoke, why not consider a "farmers' market" sort of relationship with a small grower? Tobacco that hasn't been chemically fucked with and overprocessed probably causes less harm. When my husband used to smoke, he rolled his own. One very noticable thing was that home-rolled ciggies don't keep burning. When not actively smoked, they go out. That in itself will save quite a bit of money.

[Zodiak]

20. I've got two working hypotheses on the recent fervor to stamp out smokers

and neither of them have to do with health.

1. Generate tax revenue from the poor without having to actually say it. With reduced federal funds going to states, this is a good strategy for generating funds...a bad one if you want to keep poor people's heads above water. Yes, poor people smoke more than rich people do...Scotland has excellent statistics on it. And it is immoral to tax the addicted, in my opinion....they will pay until there is no money.

2. Deflect blame for increased lung cancer rates on second-hand smoke in an environment when industrial pollution has been allowed to drastically increase. It is indisputable that we have far less smokers now than we used to (esp. in the last few years), but the lung cancer rates have inceased. This runs counter to the hypothesis that everyone is dropping like flies to second-hand smoke.

Does it happen? Of course it does. Is the risk for the individual so high that you can practically sount on lung cancer from repeated exposure to second-hand smoke? Not really.

Not having the proper perspective on dosages and differences in risk is one of the problems.

Going from a 0.00002% chance to a 0.00004% chance of dying of lung cancer is an increased risk of 100%, but it doesn't amount to a hill of beans because there is an overwhelming probability that the individual will not experience this risk. Compare that with the 30% chance you have to die of a heart attack, the risk is rather low. According to the activists that wish to stop smoking across the country, 53,800 die every year from second-hand smoke. That's 1/3 of the risk of seeing a doctor (around 144,000 die a year from medical treatment).

I am not advocating foir everyone to light up, but I am saying that this concerted effort to stamp out smokers, deny them access to even outdoor environments, denying them jobs, and taxing the hell out of them is greatly disproportionate to their crime. What's worse is we all kow these people ar addicted and will put up with whatever abuse you send their way. Ready-made punching bags.

[bbgrunt]

21. thank you for this much needed connection between those

who Nazis and national scolds.

Reactions to fat are totally socially determined. There are still some societies that worship large people. I once lived in such a society for 2 years and it was quite illuminating and liberating.

[undergroundpanther]

22. Where was this society..

I wanna MOVE there.

[bbgrunt]

23. well, unfortunately that was back in the 60's and it was

quite a patriarchal society. It was, however, astounding to be publicly ogled and have marriage proposals coming from guys on the street while they ignored my gorgeous skinny girlfriend. Sometimes I have to feel bad for women who look like models--that's a lot of shit to put up with.

[undergroundpanther]

29. Ironically I had to put up with it

20 years ago.It was very upsetting.after an attempted rape I beat the tar out of him.But I rapidly gained weight And I lived in a residential house so I was not in control of my food intake you got what you got.So before and after the incident my food intake never changed yet I went up a pant size a week.A total of 4!!