I am sick of all the Christian bashing

[The Straight Story]

NO - not from here at DU...

From others who say they are Christians - and bash Christians like me Because:

- I want to help the poor in this country

- I want health care to be something we all have and don't have to worry about

- I want an end to wars where we are killing people who did nothing to us, we aren't defending, we are attacking

- I believe in sex education. The most natural thing in the world for people to do and you want to hide it. Why do people experiment? Because they don't know the answers and seek to find them - you have the answers but won't tell those seeking them. Think about it mmmm K?

- I believe that hating your kids because they are gay is wrong. God loves his children, why don't you?

- I believe that love is the solution, not hate and shaming others.

- I believe that Jesus kicked the asses of the conservatives, called Pharisees and Sadducee's back then. He was right back then and is today as well.

- I don't blame people for their plight, instead I want to heal them and their situation.

- Yes, I believe it is good to teach a person to fish and not just give them the fish, but to teach them you have to make sure they have the tools to fish - like a boat, a rod, bait, and so on - you don't want to give them what they need. You want them to earn it. Yeah, like YOU earned salvation?

- I believe that Jesus gave his life for us, and that we should at least give to others no matter how they got where they are. Think of his example - we were in sin/debt and he died for us, what are you willing to do for others who are suffering and face a possible life sentence due to their illness, poverty, etc?

- I believe Jesus told his followers to change the hearts and minds of others, not laws to make people do what he wanted. He was pro-choice in life, you make the decision to follow his rules or not, you don't force people by having a religious state.

So stop fucking bashing me. Stop telling me I am not a real Christian. Stop telling me that your way is the only way.

My way is between my God and me. It is not for some, and that is their business and not yours. Your morality is a choice you made to follow, be a good sport and let others make their own choice as well.

You oppress, repress, and want to bash Christians like me who don't fit your ideal.

How Roman like of you. The beast has been said to be the church in the latter days. And I can tell you that that is spot on.

[Perky]

1. Take a fresh look at the book of Galatians.

particularly as provided in "the Message" there is a lot of wingnutism throughout.

[theredpen]

10. There is?

Galatians 5:14-15

(14)For the whole law is summed up in a single commandment, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (15)If, however, you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

Do you disagree with the idea that "love your neighbor as yourself" is a good foundation for society? Do you think vicious infighting is constructive? There's plenty more stuff like this.

What wingnutism are you talking about specifically?

[liberaldemocrat7]

26. Right wing ( Self descrined Christians ) often use the disclaimer: we don't want government to help.

I often hear right wing self proclaimed christians CLAIM that Jesus never meant for the government to take care of the poor and then they get into this whatever belongs to Caeser goes to Caeser etc.

I also refer to right wing christians as capitalist christians as they will justify just about any abuse of people using capitalism with the blessings of their twisted view of Jesus.

Then the right wingers extend this to say that they don't want to get forced to pay taxes for ......

These right wing self proclaimed Christians need a scolding.

If some Republican talks about how taxpayers should not have to pay more taxes then tell him or her:

We determine what government does. 49 million people who work, earn money and pay taxes and voted Democratic in 2004 want the government to help the poor and raise tax rates if necessary.

[Perky]

28. Yikes you misundertand my post...my fault

I think Paul is taking on those who want to drag people kicking and screaming back to the OT. I think that is the whole issue confronting the Church at Galatia and the Church today. The parallel is pretty stark

[youngdem]

2. "I am sick of all the Christian bashing"....Then forgive em. n/t

:shrug:

[The Straight Story]

3. One can forgive while bitching about the act :)

To forgive is divine, to forget and keep quiet just ain't my way :)

[LittleClarkie]

4. What the OP is talking about is sort of a weird "I'm more Christian than you are"

situation because some Fundamentalists reckon God's a Republican.

Some of us are made to feel second-hand because we are both Christian and liberal and not necessarily Fundamentalist.

Oh, yes, we forgive. But it still can make one's teeth itch.

[theredpen]

8. Before you must forgive them...

...they must ask for forgiveness.

Why don't we all hold our breath together and wait for the right-wing fundies to admit that they're jerks.

[Richard Steele]

45. Forgiveness requires REPENTANCE. eom

[BlooInBloo]

5. As soon as christians stop telling me I'm going to hell, I will.

[theredpen]

7. I'm a Catholic

...and you're not going to Hell. Pope John Paul II said isn't a place you can "go," it's a state of being.

If that doesn't satisfy you, then you can just bloody well go to Iraq.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theredpen]

14. What is that supposed to mean?

[BlooInBloo]

15. What does "go to Iraq" mean?

[theredpen]

17. It's a joke

Hell doesn't exist so you would tell someone to go some place that's equivalent. Get it? The first part of the post was serious, PJPII did, in fact, say that Hell is not a place. Also, unless you think the situation in Iraq is really swell, you're not going there anywhere. There, I said it.

[BlooInBloo]

23. Well have fun with your priest was also "a joke". Funny, huh?

[theredpen]

25. Sure... that's why it was deleted.

[dmallind]

6. Amen ;)

I'm nobody's idea of a Christian, but if more of them stood up and got mad like you are doing I'd be a whole lot less likely to bash them.

Although (and please don't take this as an insult as I really do sincerely agree with what you are saying), such complaints and opinions would be much more powerful if directed toward the right wing Christian groups who are a)bashing you and b)giving all your co-religionists a bad name. Send this in to your local church newsletter and even local daily. Send it to any particularly objectionable right wing Christian broadcasters, evangelists, pastors etc in your area. They need to hear this more than we do (since doubtless most here agree), but I AM glad to hear it nonetheless.

[timtom]

9. Looks like we're on the same page, friend.

And it has always been thus.

[VP505]

12. "I am sick of all the Christian bashing"

Me too, Christians need to stop bashing Gay's, Women's Reproductive Rights, Contraception, Sex Education, People that don't share Christian beliefs, etc.

[brentspeak]

16. You mean a tiny minority of Christians

The vast 99% of Christians don't engage in the kind of behavior you're mentioning.

[Perky]

30. There is a weird thing that goes on in the Christian Camp.

Most people who come from an evangelical tradition do not espouse the heavy handedness of the fundamentalist. Legislation and fear and hatred are not effective means of bringing the Gospel Message.

The problem is we tend to seek peace in the camp rather than war. And when we do resort to war....we feel an obligation to do it wuietly...withing the Church walls rather than public display for the secular camp to see.... Why? Because we think that is what Jesus would want.....So this vacuum tend to exist and the Fundies gain ground.



The problem is that it is pretty clear that We are called to judge one another....not the world...but the Church.... You see that through out the Gospels as Jesus deal with the Pharisees and you see that in the letters when Paul and James deal with Bad Doctrine. The American Church is largely congregational and the televangelical community answer to no one.


I for one am sick and tired of the fundies destroying the Gospel message to score political points and sell books; relying or raw political power rather than the power of God. Holding to a form of Godliness but having given up on hope in its power to transform lives.

The fundies are craven heretics. but the evangelical community has allowed Thieu ilk to fest and grow like a cancer in our midst. Part of that is being polite....part of that is a tendency of the evangelical left to focus more on a social gospel then on Christ..


But in my view the only way we fix this is to shun politeness withing the community and flush the heretics out.

What the secular left has to understand however. is that these issues have to be dealt with withing the camp.... and if we are to to this as Jesus did it......we need to have our war within our walls without it being a public spectacle....WHich is what the secular left wants.

[Spangle]

44. That 1% yells the loudest and makes the other 99% look bad

And THAT is the problem. Those that yell the loudest, get noticed. The loudest tends to attack others. Those that disagree, tend to ignore them as wack jobs. This gives them the impression that people agree with them.

Christians that don't agree with them need to start standing up and saying so. Just like this guy did. I"ve been doing this for a couple of years now. I don't 'preach' to others. I 'preach" to those who all ready claim to be Christians. I see it like this, The only folks that Jesus got mad at and 'ATTACKED" was the leadership of his own religus group. Pointing out their errors. So I see it as following in Jesus's foot steps.

[The Straight Story]

22. I am with you on that my friend

If they don't want to be those things they don't have to be, it is none of their damned business what other people are doing.

God gave people a choice, has done so since Eden. If you don't choose to follow a certain path then it is nobody's fucking business.

Those people calling themselves Christian and bashing the things you mentioned aren't into religion for the faith and closeness to God, they are in to control others.

And those people scare the crap out of me.

*** Side note: Who did God bitch about most in the bible? His supposed followers....Cause they kept getting the message wrong and they still are.

[sarcasmo]

34. Bingo. To post 12.

[marshall]

49. Some countries keep very tight control over their Christians

That's not the case here.

[matt819]

13. I don't mean to incite a flame war, but. . .

I can really appreciate the attitude of those who do engage in some form of bashing. Take a look at your list of attributes and attitudes. Take out the references to Jesus and being a good Christian, and what you have is a list of pretty much decent, considerate human behavior. Why should you, or I, care whether Jesus loves me, whether I will be saved, or whether he died for my sins? If you and I are decent human beings, caring for our fellow humans, righting wrongs, and combating injustice, why muddy the waters by attributing these characteristics to so-called good Christians. Remember, an awful lot of wars, including the current one, have been fought in the name of god, Jesus, religion, etc.

[theredpen]

19. Then bash those people

Why should you, or I, care whether Jesus loves me, whether I will be saved, or whether he died for my sins?

What makes you think I do? Because I'm a Christian? People should save their bile for the evangelicals.

Liberal Christians are the n-words of the left. Do you walk up to black people and ask them why "their people" do crack? Do you walk up to Muslims and ask them why "their people" are always bombing things? If you're a white man, can I hold you responsible for the sins of all white men? That's quite a lot of sins.

As a Christian on DU for a very short time I'm already fed up with being called on the carpet for attitudes I don't have and behaviors I don't participate in.

[EstimatedProphet]

52. Join the club

See, we as liberal Christians are responsible for what conservative Christians do, because they call themselves Christian too. so until we start to control their behavior, we deserve to be bashed just as much as they are. We have to just suck it up and take it, until we stamp out all fundamentalism, even though we don't have any fundamentalist beliefs or actions.

That argument was actually used here to me. Even though I have less control over conservative christians and what they want to do than they do over me. Even though the dipshit that told me that isn't being held personally responsible for the things any group he/she is a part of is guilty of doing. It's not fair? Oh well, too bad - he/she has an excuse to not be fair, and is making an excuse to stay that way, and I should just respect that.

Welcome to DU BTW. It'll be nice to have another voice to scream alongside.

[The Straight Story]

20. No flame war needed my friend

outside the bubble of this discussion, I do indeed agree with you mostly.

I do tend to see humans in a duality - some will do good to others, some will do evil to others - with or without religion.

My discussion was centered on those who have a religious backing to their discussions.

We see similar divisions though even without religion entering the picture - which is where get down to politics, liberal vs conservative on core issues.

The Rush Limbaugh's of the world don't need religion to feel hate, nor to justify it. It is but another tool they can use though, but it is not the main reason.

In all of history people can be divided up into two main categories (not the only ones mind you) - Liberals (those who care for more than about themselves and immediate family) and conservatives (opposite of the liberal and more clan like, protect the family first and screw everyone else).

To me, my faith says that there is a greater being than humankind, and that being is telling us that while being conservative has it's place at times, overall being liberal is the way we were intended to be.

[LittleClarkie]

21. The OP isn't talking about that kind of bashing

It's sort of a Christian on Christian thing where the Conservative ones make the Liberal ones feel like we're second hand somehow.

[maveric]

18. I'm tired of "CINO's"

"Christians in Name Only".
You know. The ones that call themselves "Christians" and do or believe in nothing remotely Christ-like.

Like the people that call themselves "Good Americans", but dont care about or believe in the the Constitution or anything close to what the Founding Fathers had laid the groundwork for.

Jesus exposed and denounced hypocrites like that.

[xchrom]

24. michael moore had it right -- ''christianize'' healthcare.

and indeed -- evangelicals and fundies -- DO NOT speak for all christians -- in spite of what the media would have you think -- and in fact -- there is good reason to hold them as heretics and cultists.

[JNelson6563]

27. I think some missed your point

As an atheist I applaud your post. Those extreme lunatics have seized control of what "Christian" means. Same assholes who turned "liberal" into a dirty word.

Bastards.

Julie

[DutchLiberal]

29. The only reason why the right-wing fundies invoke God and Jesus all the time, is name-dropping.

Nothing more, nothing less. They abuse the name of Christ to make themselves look good, and they don't care if their actions are consistent with the teachings of Jesus. As long as they can make people believe they are...

I'm not a Christian, by the way, but I'm as fed up with these practices as you are. And I agree with you on all points.

[Perky]

31. Actually if you pay attention they do not invoke Jesus

Mostly because the Gospels message is incompatible with their agenda

[hfojvt]

32. I'm not sure who is doing that if anybody

I think the fundies would say liberal Christians are not real Christians IF they/we make Christianity about ethics than it is about salvation and IF they/we deny that the Bible is the inspired word of God.

Why can you accuse them of oppressing, repressing and bashing, while you deny them the opportunity to challenge you?

I think fair is fair, that if I challenge them on the way they walk that they can do the same to me, but I also do not think anybody is gonna say somebody is not a real Christian because they believe in helping the poor and because they want to end war.

[Spangle]

46. Really?

I've been told that I"m going to hell just for voting Democrat. Yes, there really are folks that believe that out there. I've been told this by more then one persons over the years. They have one issue and that is called "Family Values". And they believe that "Family Values" can only be found in the Republican party, God's choosen party. If your not voting with God, then you are voting against him.

So, if your voting a certain way to help the poor and because you want to end the war, such a vote would most likely be a democratic one. Hence, yes you would be going to hell for making such a vote. That is just the way the have been told to think.

[JerseygirlCT]

33. Your beliefs work fine for me, Straight Story

I understand your frustration.

[AwakeAtLast]

35. K & R - Because I wish there were more true Christians like you in the world

Thanks for a wonderful post!

[illinoisprogressive]

36. your type of christian is rising and bringing the right word to the fore

[Hieronymus]

37. Christians are all to blame for the bad rap. Stand up to the rapture right.

[autorank]

38. Self delete

:)

[ChairmanAgnostic]

39. the romans built one hell of a civilization.

sure, they had their excesses, sure they used lions for crowd control, and sure, that incestuous bit at the end, with a couple of families controling the political process of their country had something to do with Rome's collapse (Say, Bush Clinton Bush Clinton - ya think?)

but, Rome also did a hell of a lot of good. They integrated hundreds of cultures and tribes into their system. They built roads, aquaducts, buildings, schools, courts, a set of laws giving people rights and protection, in essence, they gave the world civilization. In response, all the christians did was try to kill it of during that lovely time called the dark ages. Enforced ignorance, willful violence against those whose beliefs differed from their own, torture, bribery, murder, and more torture. Ask the women of Germany which they prefered, deadly Christian abuse of entire towns (for alleged witchcraft) or roman construction and trade. Ask those who had their skin peeled off by the Spanish inquisition whether Roman cloth, gold, political systems and culture was better than having all limbs crushed by a heavy wheel, then having those limbs braided into a larger wheel. Ask the Jews and Muslims of Spain, Italy, Portugal and the middle east which they preferred, Roman peace or crusading christians bent on murder, lust and conquest.

I don't know, but it seems as though your premise is a bit skewed. Didn't Dick Cheney cherry pick his intel on Iraq somewhat in the same way, picking only the best he could find, and ignoring the vast majority of the data?

You are entitled to live you life as you choose, even if it involves a religious movement. But don't try to force it on me. Too many of your fellow christians are doing just that, and it is natural that we non-believers react out of self-preservation like we do. For every good idea and ideal that you assign to your faith (with some of your fellow believers hijacking it as though only a christian can act in a "good" way) I will see you a Colorado skule system forced to teach Intel Design, and raise you a newly appointed director of the Texas skule system (a confirmed creationist, by the way). For every good deed and effort to help the poor, the sick, the downtrodden, I will show you a Bushista faith based initiative that takes away money from real sex ed and sends it to non-working, abstinence programs.

[Maraya1969]

40. Can I ask you what church you belong to? Because I grew up Methodist

and our church was nothing like the fundamentalist churches. I also remember Robin Williams calling the Episcopal church "Catholic light"

When I was late in my teens and in college I got involved with the Fundamentalists and let me tell you they are ABUSIVE.

I do not have any of types of people as my friends now because I do not want to subject myself to that type of abuse anymore.

I remember people telling me I was not a "real" Christian when I was in college because I did not remember the exact date and time I got "saved". And it just made me more neurotic and I used to say that "getting saved" prayer several times a day for fear I did not say it right.

Try imagining that they have a neon light on their forehead that says; "I'm crazy, don't listen to me"

:hug:

[qb]

51. I can relate...

After high school I got involved in a Pentecostal group where testimonials in front of the congregation were expected of everyone. Those who confessed to the worst behavior prior to being saved got the most respect. All I had to say was, "I was raised Methodist."

[OneBlueSky]

41. these days, "Christian" can mean anything from extreme right to extreme left . . .

and everything in between . . . "Christian" encompasses Protestants, Catholics, Evangelicals, Dominionists, and a whole host of other religions and sects with a wide variety of beliefs . . . the only thing they all have in common is belief in the New Testament and the divinity of Jesus . . . but their interpretations are so varied that "Christian" can pretty much mean whatever you want it to mean . . . when someone "attacks Christians," you really have to ask them which Christians they're referring to . . .

[Beerboy]

42. Hah! Good title,

sucked me right in!
Carry on.

[More Than A Feeling]

43. You succeeded in surprising me with the contents of your post.

Conservative Christians preach the base submission of humanity to a feudal supernatural hierarchy, and set themselves up as the sole authoritative interpreters of the lord of the manor. You are daring to try to make your own decisions, and that above all else is anathema. You won't bow down when they proclaim that "God said..." this or that. Everyone should be encouraged to do likewise.

Of course, there's a slight problem with the fact that they might be right, and you don't know that they aren't. So its hard for me to see how you can reject their picture of reality without rejecting the underlying use of faith as a method of determining the nature of reality. But other than that, I applaud the fact that you have turned your complaint against our political enemies and the supporters of far greater misdeeds than being outspoken in internet debate.

[porphyrian]

47. It's amazing the irony that's lost on them. - n/t

[HamdenRice]

48. Seems like you are in the majority!

The right wing fundies just scream the loudest.

[Rocknrule]

50. Time to revive this old list:

You might be a fundie/CINO if...

- You feel the world owes you a favor and claim persecution when it doesn't live up to it.
- When reality and the Bible contradict, you accuse reality of being wrong.
- You believe one's political party determines their salvation.
- You believe every human life is sacred, but are willing to destroy it if said life belongs to a liberal, Jew, Muslim, atheist, homosexual, or feminist.
- You believe the universe revolves around the earth and all human affairs.
- You believe that a fertilized egg is more of a human being than the woman who carries it.
- You relish in telling people they are going to hell for arbitrary offenses like voting Democrat
- You propose the idealogy that it doesn't matter how we treat the planet, as God will make a new one if we break this toy.
- You think that if God didn't exist, you'd be a suicidal drug-abusing criminal, because apparently the promise of a reward in the afterlife is the only thing worth being a decent person for.
- You call people fascists for opposing a religious totalitarian government.
- You attribute all the world's woes to arbitrary groups of people.
- You find pretty much anything that people do for fun to be sinful.
- You think the God in Near Death Experiences and movies like Evan Almighty is an imposter because he wasn't a judgemental prick like yourself.
- You think ‘liberal’, ‘atheist’ and ‘satan’ all mean the same thing.
- You think America was founded for Christians only.
- You think Bush personally founded America and has two-way conversations with God.
- You call for a boycott of telephone and electric companies because they inevitably provide services to homosexuals.
- You are incapable of finding humor in anything except human suffering.
- You think you're going to be part of the .0000001% of humanity going to Heaven watching everyone who ever annoyed you, beat you at baseball, or proved you wrong logically burn in eternal torment and suffering. You also believe that pride and wrath are sins.
- You'd rather change the english language to include "nucular" than admit that your president looks like a moron.
- You list sins in the following order of importance: Homosexuality; Abortion; Disbelief in any aspect of the bible; 'Belief' in evolution; Pedophila (unless church-related); Liberalism; Atheism; Communism; Promiscuity (particularly holding hands); Theft; Being foreign; Drinking alcohol (unless it's the blood of Christ). Only then will you reluctantly bother to acknowledge: Murder; Rape; Incest; Nazism; Infanticide; War; Genocide.
- You assume everyone in the bible was white because you cannot conceive that holy men would be of another race
- You're homophobic, but take great pleasure in graphic descriptions of anal sex.
- Your favorite debate tactic is putting your fingers in your ears and going LA LA LA LA LA I CANT HEAR YOU STUPID HEATHEN LA LA LA LA LA LA
- You're not a mysogynist; if you hated women you wouldn't want to own one
- You're not a homophobe; if you were afraid of gays you wouldn't hunt them down and beat the *beep* out of them
- You think Hitler is in heaven because he believed in Jesus but all the Jews he killed are in hell because they didn't
- You think 9/11, Katrina, Virginia Tech, and soldier deaths in Iraq are God's wrath against America for not putting gays in death camps

[Ladyhawk]

53. Most of the things you mention have nothing to do with being a Christian.

:shrug: Making moral issues "Christian" issues irritates me. I'm an atheist and in case you hadn't noticed, we're starting to get a little peeved at being perceived as the sort that barbecue kittens.

Morals are morals are morals. They have nothing to do with religion. Lots of studies are coming out that show our morality is completely natural, derived from evolutionary survival traits. Making it about religion clouds the issue.

(On edit: Visit The Rational Response Squad.)

[Hydra]

54. Get used to it

Because by current definitions, you're a heretic. That used to get you bbq'ed along with the rest of us that won't bend knee before a Jesus on a cross(that's really a horrible image, you know. Why can't you guys use the resurrection as your symbol???). Thanks for pointing that out, Ladyhawke. I tend to forget that they want to haul the stakes out for a rousing night of burn the unbeliever(s).

Can I relate to you? Sure. I was raised Catholic. I really liked the Jesus guy. I disagreed when he said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me," and a few other things he said, but nobody's perfect. I tried to emulate that, bring it forth here. To my great surprise, my journey to god took me further from the people in the church I was going to.

Pride
Envy
Wrath
Lust
Gluttony
Sloth
Greed

I saw it all reflected in the people there.

Lust for the power the church once commanded, the power to force others to follow their laws and strictures, the power to hurt the people who dared to resist their holy directives, the power to destroy the lives of people who were happy and making the world better.

Misery...misery is the way to heaven...

IMO, if you are calling yourself a Christian, you're doing it wrong. But that's neither here nor there. I've read many people's opinions, and they agree that your religion has been hijacked. Until the "let me help you get too hell faster" crowd is removed from the room, you are going to be represented by these people. Do you enjoy that?