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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 08:18 AM
Original message
Irving's Ghost (Plame Thread #15)
"Can I just make one other comment about this stuff? I get a lot of information in the course of a day. I probably get -- you know, after all this came up I sort of for a few days tried to take a census of how many pages of stuff I get in a day, and I tend to get between 100 and 200 pages of material a day that I’m supposed to read and understand and I – you know, I start at 6 in the morning and I go to 8 or 8:30 at night, and most of that is meetings. So a lot of information comes through me, and I can’t possibly recall all the stuff I think is important, let alone other stuff that I don’t think is as important. And so when a lot of this – a lot of stuff that comes to me, what I will normally do is I’ll gather my staff together and say, ‘hey, what happened here?’ You know, ‘there was some meeting we had on, let’s say, Iraq. What did people say, or what happened last week when we had that meeting? Did State need to do something, or was the Defense Department supposed to do something?’ And we’ll sort of pool our recollections of it and that almost always bring (sic) me a fuller recollection of what’s happened. I haven’t done that here because as I understand it, you don’t want me to do that here. I’m happy to do it at some point, but I haven’t …. I apologize if there’s some stuff I remember and some I don’t, but it’s – I’m just trying to tell you what I do in fact remember." – Scooter Libby; March 5, 2004

The jury in the Libby trial will be hearing Scooter tell the grand jury this little nugget at the end of his testimony. One need not be trained in investigating crime to recognize this pathetic little rambling as a liar attempting to cover his tracks. Proof of this is self-evident: the grand jury indicted Libby for lying. It is safe to assume that the jury today will likewise view Libby with disgust.

It’s important to recognize that "likability" – which Webster’s describes simply as having qualities that bring about a favorable regard – is a significant factor in any jury trial. This was obvious when both the prosecution and defense asked potential jurors about their feelings regarding VP Dick Cheney. It is a factor with each witness that takes the stand: does the jury trust them? Like them? Believe them? Or do they have an internal reaction that warns them to suspect the witness is a snake?

Equally important is the way the jurors view each attorney involved in the trial. It includes the "charm factor." In this case, most people find Patrick Fitzgerald to be an honest man. Judge Walton has commented on this quality when Theodore Wells hinted otherwise during a discussion at the bench. His presentation in the courtroom is powerful.

Teddy Wells is also a polished trial attorney. He is an intelligent, capable man. But he has a client that he knows is guilty as hell. At some level, the jurors are aware of that. And this is a factor in the decision that Team Libby will have to make about whether to call Scooter to the witness stand.

William Jeffress is someone that people who have followed important legal cases respect. He is very good at what he does. In this trial, however, he is not attempting to play the lawyer people like. There is a decided risk in playing the pit bull and attacking witnesses in a case that involves your client having participated in a cowardly attack.

A big part of the strength of the prosecution’s case is the timing. Patrick Fitzgerald has put witnesses on in a way that supports his case for convicting Scooter on every count. Each piece fits together with the larger whole. The defense thus tries to disrupt the flow. While this hasn’t reached the level of an Irving Kanarek, the jury may sense that Team Libby does not want them to hear certain facts. Irving’s ghost may yet haunt Team Libby.

And, finally, the "likability" factor will come into play when the defense begins to put on its case. Assuming that there is no plea deal before the defense starts, they will have to decide if they can risk putting Scooter on the stand. The same thing with VP Cheney: as pointed out on MSNBC, many believe that if Cheney did testify honestly, he would damage Libby’s defense. If he isn’t called to testify, jurors may wonder why they were asked about him during jury selection.

Team Libby also had pointed their finger at Karl Rove during their opening statement. No witness, with only the possible exception of Cheney, is going to strike the jury as more repulsive than Rove. That’s why Team Libby would call him. Rove offers nothing to the case that would factually help Libby – he would be called simply to attempt to gain an emotional response. But, if neither Libby nor Cheney take the stand, the defense would likely be restricted in what areas it might question Karl about.
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. K & R nm
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
2. Previous Plame
Research Forum & Threads 1,2,3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_oet&address=358x192

H20’s Impeach Dick Cheney Threads:

www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_oet&address=358x4640

Will I. Lewis Libby Testify? (Plame Thread #14)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x136396


Rosesaylavee has done a fantastic job of posting the Plame & Cheney threads in the Research Forum.


Government Documents Relating To The Plame Case:

http://wid.ap.org/documents/libbytrial/index.html


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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
3. ok, i'll bite. who's irving kanarek? nt
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. You, too, huh? I had to go google.
Edited on Wed Feb-07-07 08:48 AM by Cerridwen
He was charles manson's attorney in the Tate-LaBiana trial.

Here's the wiki link to start you off http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Kanarek

edit to add: at another link it says Kanarek did a 7 day summation which the judge in the case called not an "argument but a filibuster" at this link: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/manson/mansonothers.html



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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. thanks, cerridwen. nt
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Vince Bugliosi gave
a wonderful description of him in his book about the Manson case. "Prosecutor Burton Katz, for example, recalled that Kanarek once objected to a prosecution witness's stating his own name because, having first heard it from his mother, it was 'hearsay'." (page 379)
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. I saw that while googling - read it to my S.O.
We both did a spit take. LOL

I also read where Bugliosi did note that while Kanarek was ridiculed in the media, his tactics were somewhat effective and he did 'score points.' Therein lies the danger.

It may be a pain and it may appear obnoxious from the outside and to deal with, but it can be used as an effective strategy. Of course, if team libby were to use this type of strategy to the extreme old irving did, it might make more front page news and then where would they be?

:evilgrin:

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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. That's A Riot
And in a way does make me think of Team Libby's defense. Just as nutty.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
4. Russert Does So Like Mathews
According to Imus and even though Mathews was after Russert's job.
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tinfoilinfor2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Mathews on Imus today; they both sort of pussyfooted around this
topic. Just as they started to talk about it, and Mathews sounded like he was ready for it, Imus changed the subject to beauty pageants, of all things. :eyes:

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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
6. I'll kick that. - n/t
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oldtime dfl_er Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
8. I wonder what the jury is like
Is it mostly female?
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tinfoilinfor2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. In an earlier article it was stated that most didn't watch MTP.
(So they probably have good taste. :))
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oldtime dfl_er Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. That's good
Celebrity carries weight, but if the jury isn't familiar with him, they won't be impressed.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Actually,
those who want Libby's lies to result in his being convicted do want the jury to be impressed with Russert.
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tinfoilinfor2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #15
26. So IMO, that's a good thing, because I was always impressed
with Russert when he was on other NBC projects. It wasn't until I really got into watching MTP that I picked up on his favoritism to the republicans.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Though I am not
impressed with Russert, and do not consider him a gifted or trustworthy journalist, for many Americans, the conflicting testimony about his conversation with Libby is strong evidence that Libby is lying.
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oldtime dfl_er Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #15
91. And they probably were
Many people say they aren't impressed by celebrity when in fact they are, and they subconsciously ascribe virtues to them.
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PRETZEL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
16. Couple of quick questions,
and an apology for asking because I'm sure they've been asked, but in the last paragraph of the OP the issue of Libby not testifying in his own defense is mentioned. My question here (and I know that Libby is not compelled to testify) but didn't Judge Walton rule that Libby would have to testify in order for Team Libby to pursue the defense of Libby being too busy to remember the details of what he knew and when he knew it? If Wells decides not to put Libby on the stand, where does the defense go and what effect does it have on previous testimony and cross examinations?

In regard to Cheney, from everything I've read from FDL (who deserves major props for their coverage) it seems that Cheney testifying is perjury waiting to happen. However, given that Cheney did not testify under oath at the grand jury, can he now change his story and not be liable for statements made prior to him testifying?

Finally, can Fitzgerald use this trial as evidence in further indictments if Libby is found guilty?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Good questions.
The thread I posted yesterday focused almost entirely on the issues involving Libby's testifying versus not testifying.

Regarding Cheney: first, you are right on target when noting that FDL is providing an important service to everyone. The quality of their work is outstanding.

Now, in terms of the "under oath" business .... again, you raise an important point. We see that Libby faces different charges for lying to the FBI investigators while not under oath, than for lying to the grand jury while under oath. But the level of the crimes charged, and the potential consequences, are identical. In the real world, being under oath doesn't make that much difference in these circumstances -- that's only a big deal on fictional tv shows.

Libby lied to investigators, then to a grand jury. He faces serious charges for both: lying while not under oath, then lying under oath.

Cheney lied to investigators while not under oath. If he testifies, he'll lie under oath. We may find that the pattern results in something similar to what Libby now faces. Most of the evidence being presented, of course, is information Mr. Fitzgerald has had. Should anything "new" be added, it would almost certainly be Cheney's updated lies. I certainly hope that these would be the grounds for criminal charges.
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Thorandmjolnir Donating Member (390 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. Cheney can still be in trouble
While he was not under oath, he did make some statements. If he now, at trial, makes statements that contradict what he said in the Grand Jury testimony, the prosecution can use the previous statements for impeachment purposes. In other words, the prosecution can show that either he lied then, or he is lying now, and thus are not to be trusted. They cannot use the Grand Jury statements to prove the substantive truth of those statements.

Very powerful tool: Its called Prior Inconsistent Statements.
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PRETZEL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #23
43. thanks to both of you,
which, unfortunately, now makes me just a tad bit more confused. If Fitz knew (which I can only assume he does) that Cheney made statements to either the FBI or Grand Jury that are inconsistent with testimony from other, why didn't he name Cheney as either an unindicted co-conspirator (which I really have no idea how that is possible) or not indict him along with Libby?

Everything I've read so far tells me that Cheney directly orchestrated this. Everyone that has testified has said that not only did Libby know but also Cheney. Why if Fitz seemed to have caught the big fish, did he seem to let him go?
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #43
66. Cheney has not been let go. Not yet.
Remember, Fitz never closed the Grand Jury Investigation. He received an 18 month extension when Libby was indicted.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #66
72. He has the authority
to take this where he feels it needs to go.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. BTW, regarding Kanarek
I knew he was connected with the Manson trial, but wasn't sure which lawyer; thought he may have been the one who was murdered during the trial. I had to laugh looking up his profile on wikipedia, he is listed as being born circa 1930. Apparently, he doesn't trust the date his mom told him he was born.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #23
85. Wouldn't a lie from Cheney, not in sworn testimony,
constitute obstruction of justice?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #85
92. Yes. n/t
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Virginian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #23
88. If his name had been Martha, he would do time for that. n/t
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
17. k&r
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
18. It seems that team Libby is just trying to do the best they can with this case
because there is not a real winning strategy. It almost seems Fitz is running the case, and I think Walton might get resentful of that, even though he admires Fitzgerald.

From Firedoglake end of day yesterday:
(The defense makes its pitch for excluding the new batch of articles, and Walton seems receptive, saying they are "of little probative value and potentially prejudicial." Fitz says they show Libby's focus and the Wilson issue and that the govt. feels the "Wilson issue" and "Wilson's wife issue" are inextricably entertained — a little snark as he says, "just because someone charged with perjury says the two were separate, that doesn't mean we should be constrained" (or words to that effect). Walton says he'll think it over.)



I think Libby is likable, but not enough to carry this case by any measure.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Good points.
Looks like Judge Walton has reconsidered, and is going in our favor on this. The defense is upset.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. Not Thinking That's So
Wells has tried a lot of sneaky things which has really irritated Walton, so much so that he said in court that Fitzgerald is the most scrupulous prosecutor that has ever appeared before him.
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Yes, but that is a fine line to tread when you know more than the judge
and Fitzgerald is not treading lightly. As for Wells, he is aggressive, but the judge may feel for him a little, because he has Zero to go on anyway.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
20. How likely is it that Libby will take a plea deal,
or will he spend the next few years with appeals, while his fingers are crossed, wistfully seeking a pardon. I can't wait for the defense to make their case. It seems like all they have is a mish mash of stapled together excuses. This is so amazing to watch history happen before your eyes. Thanks for the wonderful character study, H2O Man. K&R.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. That's the real issue.
Let's just focus on three of the top members of Team Libby: Teddy Wells, William Jeffress, and John Cline. I think it's fair to say that each has certain strengths that combine to make a strong team. And one is known for looking ahead, and considering all options for future appeals.

Now, a good team is stronger when each member looks at the situation from a different view point. And it would seem possible -- at the very least -- that one of these fellows has at least considered the chance that Scooter will be convicted on every charge, should the trial follow its course to the end. And Judge Walton is not known for handing down other than stiff sentences.

Add to that the considerations of issues to appeal. Of course, they can appeal any decision that Judge Walton makes during the entire process. But do they think they have strong issues? Do they advise Scooter about the odds of winning if he rolls the dice?

I thought Libby would probably make a plea by the end of December, 2006. But nothing really surprises me in this case anymore!
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
27. .
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Olney Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
28. Thank you, Waterman. That quote from Scooter Libby from his 2004
testimony really inspires confidence in this administration, doesn't it? It's one of the more frightening things I've read about how this cabal does business. For example, "What did people say, or what happened last week when we had that meeting? Did State need to do something, or was the Defense Department supposed to do something?" This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that this cabal is a train wreck.

btw, are you a lawyer, or do you play one on the internets? :hi: I really appreciate your scholarly posts on this topic.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #28
55. I can see why he thinks Libby might get away with that 'long paragraph' of an explanation
Edited on Wed Feb-07-07 03:07 PM by higher class
They are so cunning in pitching all their balls (or bowling pins) up in the air for the purpose of screwing someone, stealing from another, making mere citizens believe, feeding the media with their pablum for the day, trying to blackmail, persuade, or getting a player to see the light.

Part of an agenda is always out there to convince or betray while many other parts are secret and involve crossing continents and cultures, plus languages. Plus, they have to always wonder if their dirty deal with someone will conflict with the other operatives dirty deal with someone else.

To put it in the words of George - it's hard work - that's all Libby is saying. NO NO, I'm not defending George. Just trying to imagine what pulling one of their deals is like. They can never be sure of how one of theiir patsies or partners is going to take something, perform, and never betray them. PLUS, contingency planning - what they can do should someone not perform - necessary in the planning stage and while something plays out.

It's obvious to me that Cheney pushed plenty of responsibility for this on George - telling Libby that he was going to get the permission of George -a certain 'sharing' that doesn't quite jive with my opinion of what George can handle as far as understanding what 'they' (Cheney and buddy staff and operatives) do. But, my under-estimation of what George can handle may be my thing.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
29. Oh, dear.
From FDL: Mr. Fitzgerald is asking Scooter about who spoke to the Wall Street Journal about the NIE before it was declassified ....

F: Do you know if you spoke to the Wall Street Journal before July 18?

L: No, I didn't.

F: Do you know who did?

L: Secretary Wolfowitz did.

(FDL always points out that these are not exact quotes from a court transcript. However, as all other reports show, they do a heck of a good job, and these are no doubt very, very, very close to exact quotes.)
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. What are your thoughts on this?
Will Wolfowitz get dragged into this? :hi:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. I am reminded of
the press conference in October of 2005, when Mr. Fitzgerald made the reference to Libby's actions being like a ball player tossing sand into the umpire's eyes. As the trial moves forward, much of the testimony shows that Mr. Fitzgerald was aware of issues such as Cheney's involvement, and the roles of fellows like Fleischer, Hadley, Hannah, and the like.

In a 2-6 article on btcnews.com ("Scooter Libby and the Amazing Insta-Declassification Doctrine"), Eric Brewer points out that on the Libby tape yesterday, Mr. Fitzgerald asked "Libby no fewer than 17 questions on the topic."

In his 2-7 article ("Libby tells of leak plans"), LA Times reporter Greg Miller notes, "As Libby sat silently in the courtroom, jurors heard his disembodied voice describe how he was instructed to leak intelligence secrets to select reporters, even as other White House officials expressed concern over the leaks and debated whether the administration should formally declassify intelligence reports on Iraq to combat criticism of the case for war.

"At one point, Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald can be heard on those tapes expressing disbelief that Libby would take part in those meetings without disclosing that the president had effectiively already declassified key portions of a national intelligence estimate on Iraq's alleged banned weapons programs.

" 'It is not unusual for the vice president to tell me something which I am not allowed to share with others,' Libby told him."

Now that is a significant part of the reason the sand was thrown in Mr. Fitzgerald's eyes. Do you remember at the beginning of the trial, I stressed that DUers should keep the various parts of the administration -- the WHIG, the OVP, and the OSP -- in mind? As distinct, though overlapping entities? And where I quoted Mr. Fitzgerald, from a footnote in a pretrial document, saying that there was a specific charge that Libby might be guilty of? It wasn't leaking Plame's identity per say; it was espionage?
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PRETZEL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. Going back to something I raised at the time
and I don't remember what thread or at what point in time of the trial that happened (I believe it was David Addington's testimony), but the issue of whether or not the IIPA was violated was raised. I seem to recall that it was a somewhat odd question at the time. In reading what has transpired with Libby's testimony, it seems that (and maybe I'm wrong) but there were some people who felt that the disclosure of Valerie Plame's identity did indeed violate that (or more astutely, the Espionage Act) and the declassification of the NIE (apparently after the fact) was the administrations response to cover up those acts.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Right.
I'm convinced that Libby and Cheney were very aware of what exposing Valerie Plame involved.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. Do you think that Fitz will be able to prove intent?
Edited on Wed Feb-07-07 12:48 PM by myrna minx
I think that is very important. Since Libby's "misremembering" excuse has been rendered moot (unless he himself testifies), and your astute observation that Libby is "remembering" phantom conversations with Russert, will this be enough for Fitz to prove intent? I think the intent angle is what is imperative to go after Cheney. Or am I confused. There are so many facets to this that sometimes my head just spins.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Proving "intent"
is a difficulty in the case of proving someone intentionally exposed a CIA agent. It can also be a significant factor in espionage cases, as the neocon/AIPAC espionage case shows.
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #45
53. Which is why he conveniently remembers that he doesn't recall.
He forgot everything having to do with Cheney, he forgot everything about Wilson's wife, but he remembered the conversation with Ari about the Dolphins, the name of the Hardball producer, and, of course, no matter what else happened, he remembers he didn't tell Novak.

:eyes:


Poor Timmy with the broken bones. Does this happen to everyone involved with this trial?
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Olney Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. Wolfowitz spoke to WSJ and leaked classified information?
Is Libby nailing Wolfie?
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La_Fourmi_Rouge Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. Yes!
That little tidbit sure caught my eye as well. It seems that our comb-licking con had a hand in this nefarious scheme along with THE REST OF THE WHITE HOUSE!
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. Secretary Wolfowitz did?
Am I missing something here? The entire neocon gang was in on this coverup.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
32. Let Me Echo That From The Jury Room
I had the opportunity to serve in a Federal court...and, in fact, the same court room Fitzgerald was heading. Briefly, the case involved straw gun buyers...the state was attempting to run a sting on several gun shops who were suspected of selling weapons to felons.

When I was called to be a prospective juror in this case, I thought there was no way I was gonna be on this panel as my anti-gun opinions would surely negate my selection. I was surprised when the defense...the side representing the accused gun dealer, asked that I be kept on the panel. I remember leaving the courthouse that night figuring this attorney just sunk his client. Then I began the jury process.

Sitting in that courtroom was a surreal experience. There was the "power" I felt in being chosen to pass judgement in such a high profile case, and with it came the responsibility to look at the law and apply it to the specifics of the case. It was the civics lesson of a lifetime. Then there was the interplay with fellow jurors. You'd go from being 14 strangers (we had 2 alternates) to bonding as the trial went along. While you didn't discuss the case, you associated by the area you lived in or your favorite TV show or some other point of interest. Then there was the theatrics of the trial.

"Likeability" is a very powerful factor when one listens to a witness or views an attorney. In this case, the defense attorney was very "folksy" and always addressed the jury with solid eye contact, where the prosecutors came off as cold...out to prove something and their case was very methodical, yet poorly executed. In the end, it was the defense attorney's ability to reach the jury that made a big difference to many of us on the jury and he won the case.

Libby's credibility has been shreaded in surgical fashion by Fitzgerald and by Libby's own GJ testimony. While I can't see Jefress, from the FDL Play-By-Play I can just feel this guy must be making some of the jurors skin crawl. Unless you physically sit in the courtroom you can't feel the interplay that goes on that does affect the way jurors view a trial. Dare I say Jefress was able to make people like Judy Miller and Ari Fleischer look sympathetic. What's that say about what's coming?

Now I don't see any way that either Scooter or crashcart takes the stand. In essence, Scooter just did take the stand and putting him up there again would give Fitz the chance to deliver the Perry Mason "coup-de-grace". And what could crashcart do to help now? Admitt he ordered scooter to leak? Yeah, right.

As always H20 Man, a great analysis of where we are...a must read every morning.

Cheers...

:toast:
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #32
39. What side is Jeffress on?
The defense or the prosecution?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. Team Libby ....
You will recall he did the cross-examination on Grenier.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. lol!
You assume too much on my attention span with this trial, H2O Man. :-) All I know is that Fitzgerald is the prosecutor and Ted Wells is the attorney for the defense. I have no idea who cross-examined who; I do know what witnesses are being called etc but other details I'm not aware of. I just try my best to catch up on everything through you. Thank you.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Well you may
remember him for his efforts to keep the Nixon tapes secret.
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Bethany Rockafella Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
46. Kick...
:kick:
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
47. Oh my, this may be VERY interesting....
From firedoglake live blogging, note this is not an official transcript but is very close, imo:

SNIP

F: Ever talk to a person named David Shedd? (paging David Corn!)

L: Have talked to him about a lot of things, but don't recall specifically about Wilson

F: VP ever talk to him about Wilson, Niger, or uranium

L: Don't know, maybe on the margins of a meeting.

END SNIP

http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/02/07/libby-live-libby-grand-jury-testimony-eight/

Here is a David Corn article, dated August 4, 2005, on David Shedd:

In October 2003, I wrote a piece entitled "I Am No Novak" in which I noted that there was one White House staffer, a fellow who was not known to the public, whom the Plame leak special prosecutor ought to interview. This person was then working on the National Security Council staff on nonproliferation matters. What made him special was that prior to that assignment, he had worked with Valerie Wilson at the CIA. I wrote:

This NSC staffer might--I emphasize, might--play a role in the Wilson leak scandal. I know of no reason to suspect he or she is one of the leakers. (A recent Newsweek story referred to this NSCer, but it did not name the staffer.) But perhaps this individual--whom I was told is a CIA officer assigned to the NSC--mentioned Valerie Wilson's CIA connection to one or more White House colleagues during the period in which Joseph Wilson was causing the White House discomfort....Consequently, investigators probing the Wilson leak ought to ask this NSC officer--if they have not already done so--whether he or she talked about Valerie Wilson with anyone in the White House? If the Justice Department investigators can figure out how individuals in the White House came to know about Wilson's wife (if they did), then the gumshoes might be able to find a trail leading to the leakers.

snip

I did not name the individual because I did not want to engage in Rove-like conduct. (Hence, the headline of my article.) But now it can be told: the name of this NSC staffer is David Shedd. And he no longer is undercover. Larry Johnson, former CIA analyst and current Valerie Wilson champion, shared with me today an interesting fact. On June 23, 2005, Facts on File World News Digest published a short item that disclosed Shedd's CIA affiliation. It reads:

snip

Negroponte May 6 had made appointments to four senior positions within his office. They were CIA veteran and National Security Council staff member David Shedd, named Negroponte's associate director and chief of staff.

more, MUCH more!

http://www.davidcorn.com/archives/2005/08/rove_scandal_th.php


Boy, my antenae have started quivering when reading Mr. Shedd's name being raised by Fitzgerald then reading Mr. Corn's article!


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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Very Interesting
Mr. Fitzgerald is doing a masterful job here, all manner of info is being put on the record. This is brilliant.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #48
58. Now you know why a lot of us admire Patrick Fitzgerald.
He's the man!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Wow.
Great find.

It must be a real drag to be at the defense table today.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Oh my!
This is a very interesting development. It's too bad that we don't know if Shedd was ever deposed.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #47
59. Surprisingly, Corn doesn't mention this in his blog, at least not yet.
February 07, 2007

Libby: Wilson was Qualified, and the Veep Thought So, Too

You remember all those conservative Bush-backers who derided former Ambassador Joseph Wilson and said he had been miserably unqualified to take a trip for the CIA to Niger to check out the allegation that Iraq had sought uranium there? Wilson's critics on the right pooh-poohed the trip and his abilities, claiming he had no expertise and no standing to be handed such a mission. Their aim was to undermine Wilson's stinging charge that the White House had twisted the prewar intelligence on Iraq. Well, let's turn to Scooter Libby on this.

Today, the prosecution in the Libby trial played audiotapes of Libby's March 24, 2004 grand jury appearance. During that session, special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald asked Vice President Dick Cheney's former chief of staff if Libby believed that Wilson had been a reasonable choice for this mission to Niger. Libby said:

I thought he was fully qualified to do the mission...There was a suggestion in the Novak column that his wife had been the one who suggested him to go....I didn't think he was unqualified to do the job....I thought he was qualified to do the mission.

And what about the veep? What did he think? Libby said:

I think the vice president thought he was qualified...For what he did, I would think the vice president thought he was qualified....At times he had suspicions .

So if Libby and Cheney believed Wilson was qualified for the trip, will Wilson's detractors now concede this point? Or do they think that Libby was not telling the truth to a grand jury while under oath?

Posted by David Corn at 10:35 AM


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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
49. Kick
:kick:
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La_Fourmi_Rouge Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
52. Russert has taken the stand.
Here we go, gang! The Smackdown Cometh.
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. Here's the money shot.
Edited on Wed Feb-07-07 03:26 PM by Patsy Stone
http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/02/07/libby-live-tim-russert-one/

F: At any time did you discuss the wife of Joseph Wilson?

T: No, because I didn't know who she was until several days later

F: Did Libby ever tell you?

T: No.

F: What would you have done?

T: Gotten more information from him and then discussed with my producers, would have been a significant story


---

Fitz should just excuse him off the stand right now. That was the final piece. Libby is a liar -- and a really piss poor one at that.

ed: Because Fitz DID say no further questions quite soon after that. FITZ!!



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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Oh Patsy, lol, I never want the words 'money shot' and Russert
in my mind at the same time ever again. :rofl: You're right, Russert just stopped the defense in their tracks.
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Soooo sorry.
:rofl:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
60. Prediction time:
What do you anticipate for the defense's case, which will likely begin Thursday?
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. I really don't get the feeling that there will be any *ah-HA*
moments coming from the defense. Do you think that there will be any surprises? Since Russert contradicted him and his "misremembering" defense is just laughable, what else is there? :shrug: Am I overly smug and confident? What could possible be their "ace up the sleeve"?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #61
79. On Hardball:
several of the guests thought that Libby has to testify. None seemed to think VP Cheney would.
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. I Predict
that the Libby Defense Team will call Karl Rove, and drag him into the fray. And that they will Not call Cheney.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 08:20 PM
Original message
If you were a juror,
would you wonder why, after the defense's opening statement, they weren't calling Dick?
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
81. I have a hard time putting myself in the mind of a juror
because I have taken sides on this, but I would probably try to judge the case on what was presented to me, and not especially on what was not presented.

Cheney cannot really save Libby at this point, especially if it opens him up to being cross-examined.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. Teddy Wells
presented information on Cheney.
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. Well, Cheney can come in and
try to bolster the case that Libby had a huge amount of work to do and forgot certain things. But Fitzgerald has implicated Cheney with his presentation on how Cheney had talks with Libby, to go to reporters.

So if I were a juror, I would assume Cheney is the mastermind. And him not showing up would seem to be self preservation. That does not make Libby any less guilty about lying, just because he has someone higher up telling him what to do. Wells cannot argue Libby's innocence by saying Cheney told him to do such and such.

Wells and Fitzgerald are in parallel universes.

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Mandate My Ass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. Oh that's tough
My only thoughts are what do trapped animals do when cornered?

I suppose Team Libby could ask the judge for a directed verdict :rofl: which would fail, then they could call a few character witnesses (or does that only happen in the penalty phase of a criminal trial?)

I'd imagine they haven't been able to impeach even a few of the witnesses so they need to confuse the issues as much as possible. It would be the height of folly to let Libby testify and leaving him off the stand is akin to hanging a blinking neon sign on his chest that flashes "GUILTY ON ALL COUNTS." :shrug:

Even slickness at this juncture is risky, but that's all they have IMHO.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. I'm Tempted To Ask What Case
And if logic were in play there would either be a meeting tonight at 7 between the prosecution and the defense, or tomorrow the defense would rest. But there are expectations of a defense, the Fund will demand one, and so I believe we will see one, laughable by our standards but one in which Wells will spend his time laying the grounds for appeals.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. I think it will depend on Judge Walton's ruling on the latest
brief from the Libby defense team putting the question of Libby testifying fron and center. I will also be very interested in Fitzgerald's submission in response to the Libby brief. I am assuming Judge Walton will be hardpressed to rule before the defense's case begins but it may not be essential at the beginning.
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #60
67. Lots of dust and smoke
Confusing details, obfuscation, and shiny things.

Or, perhaps this: "Your Honor, having presented no witnesses, and offering no credible line of reasoning, the defense wishes to punt."
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. "Your Honor, we would like to present the jury some complimentary
coffee and biscottis while we present our defense." *crosses fingers* *grins wistfully* :rofl:
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. My dear jury,
while you consider whether Matt Cooper meant to type an "r" or an "n", please enjoy this afternoon's movie, Finding Nemo. :)
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. LOL!
:spray: "Good morning ladies and gentleman of the jury. Check under your juror's chairs to find all of Oprah's favorite things!!"
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La_Fourmi_Rouge Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #60
69. Now I'm on the Spot!
That is a very tough question, Mr. Waterman.

First I need to mind-meld with Wells and Scooter which in itself is vertigo-inducing. I can smell the fear from here on the West Coast, the panic and sense of hopelessness is palpable, and as a member of the defense team I am hoping for a bomb scare or terrist attack just to buy time. I am in ongoing desperate discussions with the prosecution to cut a deal that keeps Scootie's time down to 10 years or so if he turns on the OVP and the OP and spills his guts.

My bold prediction is that this trial will NOT go to a verdict. Simply because the downside is really truly dire for the defendant. He could SPEND THE REST OF HIS LIFE IN PRISON. I think it would be malpractice to do otherwise.

But I have a stubborn idealogue as a client, who has shown no inclination thus far to deal, so I am going to call everyone on the witless list and grill their memories for 6 weeks, just to wear out the jury and the general public, and throw Libby on the stand to cry and stammer and get some sympathy as an American Hero brought low by the twisted machinations of Rove et al.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #60
71. It appears
that Team Libby wants to wait until Monday to start their presentation to the jury. Patrick Fitzgerald is recommending otherwise.

Things are good!
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La_Fourmi_Rouge Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
74. Hardball!
Tweety is boring in on the Russert testimony and the Wilson bona fides. Schuster is giving a good rundown on the "What the hell is going on with Hardball" call that Libby made to Russert...
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
76. Here is the link to the Grand Jury transcript (198 PAGES!)
Edited on Wed Feb-07-07 06:27 PM by Spazito
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Audio Too!
If you go to the link in post #2, and click on the government exhibits link, you'll find mp3 audio of Libby's GJ testimony.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. Some highlights:
The grand jurors speak: pages 62, 103, 104, and 150.

Redacted: pages 18, 20, 21-23, 128, and 129-30.

Wilson's op-ed: pg 81

Cheney's notes: pg 83

AF2 conversation: pg 175

Libby's old phone #s: pg 110

Wilson in Baghdad: pg 114

Rove & Novak: page 167

"Spoke to President; he's comfortable": pg 139

Cheney: (NIE) "anything less than full and complete disclosure is a serious mistake" -- page 142

Great stuff!
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. Better & Better
:popcorn:
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #78
83. Fitz asks Libby:
Edited on Wed Feb-07-07 09:39 PM by Patsy Stone
"...I mean, how often have you prepared a statement for someone else to say that you had not committed a crime?"

March 24th, p. 155

"Isn't that something that, I mean, how often do you report to the Vice President to let him know that you didn't commit a crime?"

Mar ch 24th, p.160


LOL! Fitz!
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
86. March 4th, pgs. 34 & 35
Edited on Wed Feb-07-07 10:57 PM by Patsy Stone
Fitz is in the middle of asking Libby about Cheney's off-handed (you know, he was just saying it like he was curious :eyes:) mention of the fact that "his wife works at the CIA". Libby is answering questions right along until... (emphasis mine)

Fitz: Did you take it -- have any understanding whether or not Vice President Cheney thought that that fact might have played into his selection as the envoy for this trip?

Libby: No, we didn't discuss that. It was just -- he just said what he said.

Fitz: Did you take -- get any indication from the Vice President --

Libby: You talking about in that conversation?"

Fitz: In that conversation.

Libby: Yeah, I don't recall that.

Fitz: Any indication in that conversation that the Vice President thought this might be some sort of nepotism that she worked at the CPD and the envoy went on this trip?


So, if I'm reading that right, Libby just said he didn't recall:

a) something he just said he didn't discuss

and/or

b) something Fitz hadn't even finished asking him yet.

That can't be good.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #86
90. For a guy who
wanted to stay out of the news, and to operate out of the shadows, it must be odd to have these tapes being made public.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
87. Listening to the new Beatles "Love" CD.
Songs remixed by George Martin and son, with tracks from different songs mixed together at times. Makes me have fresh appreciation for the genius of all involved, including Sir George.

Reading, at the same time, all the transcripts of the day, and the very excellent commentary that FDL has tonight about all the interesting tidbits that are bringing the picture of treason into closer focus. I especially liked emptywheel's timeline of Dick's Talking Points.


"Being some days in preparation,
A splendid time is guaranteed for all.
And tonight Mr. Kite is topping the bill."


I knew Mr. Kite. Mr. Kite was a friend of mine. And Mr. Cheney: you're no Mr. Kite.


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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #87
89. It's a great CD
"A splendid time is guaranteed for all"!!!
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