CNN: Ancient boy's skeleton sparks evolution debate

[usregimechange]

Samuel Muteti, a research scientist at Kenya National Museum in Nairobi display the replica of the Turkana Boy , Thursday, Feb. 1, 2007. He is 1.6 million years old and one of the world's most famous fossil finds, yet religious leaders in Kenya want him kept under wraps...(AP Photo/Sayyid Azim)

Ancient boy's skeleton sparks evolution debate
POSTED: 4:29 p.m. EST, February 6, 2007

Story Highlights
• Kenya's national museum to display 160,000 fossils
• Turkana Boy, most complete prehistoric human ever found, to be shown
• Kenyan evangelicals upset that the exhibit contradicts Bible

NAIROBI, Kenya (AP) -- Deep in the dusty, unlit corridors of Kenya's national museum, locked away in a plain-looking cabinet, is one of mankind's oldest relics: Turkana Boy, as he is known, the most complete skeleton of a prehistoric human ever found.

But his first public display later this year is at the heart of a growing storm -- one pitting scientists against Kenya's powerful and popular evangelical Christian movement. The debate over evolution vs. creationism -- once largely confined to the United States -- has arrived in a country known as the cradle of mankind.

"I did not evolve from Turkana Boy or anything like it," says Bishop Boniface Adoyo, head of Kenya's 35 evangelical denominations, which he claims have 10 million followers. "These sorts of silly views are killing our faith."

He's calling on his flock to boycott the exhibition and has demanded the museum relegate the fossil collection to a back room -- along with some kind of notice saying evolution is not a fact but merely one of a number of theories.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/02/06/kenya.fossildebate.ap/index.html





Turkana Boy or Nariokotome Boy is the designation given to fossil KNM-WT 15000<1>, a nearly complete skeleton of an 11- or 12-year-old hominid boy who died 1.6 million years ago in the early Pleistocene. The skeleton was discovered in 1984 by Kamoya Kimeu, a member of a team led by Richard Leakey, at Nariokotome near Lake Turkana in Kenya...

The cranial capacity of Turkana Boy was about 880 cc, although if he had lived to adulthood, it would have been about 910 cc, which is considerably smaller than the 1350 cc cranial capacity of modern humans...

The overall KNM-WT 15000 (Turkana Boy) skeleton still had features (such as a low sloping forehead, strong brow ridges, and the absence of a chin) not seen in present day modern humans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkana_boy>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkana_boy

[Warren DeMontague]

1. The OP Is misleading. "Evolution debate" implies there is some debate regarding actual facts.

These are fucking anti-science whackjobs who want to hide the truth because they don't like what it implies. That's not a "debate", that's a fucking inquisition.

[BlooInBloo]

5. The OP shoulda put it in quotation marks.

[jgraz]

6. Exactly -- I was expecting an interesting science post

Maybe a heading like "Religious Fucktards Still Scared of Science" would be more appropriate.

[Kali]

10. ...

:spray: MUCH better headline :rofl:

[mmonk]

20. Yes, much more informative

[trotsky]

28. LMAO

:spray:

[JackRiddler]

30. Your comment is understandable...

The ideal headline is both catchy and neutral. How many people click on your suggestion, as opposed to the one used? If I had a radical left radio show, I wouldn't title it Revolution Now but Midday Report, and thus draw a broader audience.

[jgraz]

33. Thanks for those insights

I see now that my completely serious and not at all humorous post was woefully misguided. Other people just laughed, but you were the only one who saw that my post was really a request for a deep journalistic treatise on the use of the word "fucktard".

[JackRiddler]

36. Board confusing me...

Too much divergence in the DU members' levels of irony appreciation. Hint: if they use the "sarcasm dripping" feature, they probably don't get it. Now my own sense of it seems damaged. I'm taking first-graders' treatises literally, and lecturing ABCs to the grads. Is it the pills, or just the beamed electrons? (I really should get off this altogether and get a life again. So... addictive!)

[jgraz]

50. Oh GOD - don't get a life!

Anything but that! (Trust me, I tried it once and it sucks) :hi:

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

54. ROTFLMAO!!! nt

[illinoisprogressive]

2. And our Rightie nuts think the Kenyans are all muslim terrorists.

This story has to be causing our right wing evangies to explode.

[karlrschneider]

3. Bishop Adoyo is right. He (himself) hasn't evolved.

He's a first cousin to Turkana boy.
:grr:

[KittyWampus]

23. Your post is spot on. Taking things that literally is dragging spirituality into the mud

Those who claim to be religious end up savaging the very spirit they claim they uphold.

These Fundies are as much Materialists as the Scientists who refuse to acknowledge the existance of Mind Stuff.

[Richard Steele]

39. The "God" they worship is so weak that some old bones are a threat to his power?

How SAD is that?

[Warren DeMontague]

48. Can't get through a single thread about religious whackjobs terrified of the facts

without taking a potshot at "materialism" and "scientists who refuse to acknowledge the existance (sic) of Mind Stuff"?

Lest anyone forget, some on this board have vociferously defended the teaching of so-called "Intelligent Design" in public schools. I Hate to break it to you, but in terms of agenda, beliefs, and willful disregard of clear evidence, the waterhead "scientists" (cough) of the Discovery Institute are far closer to Bishop Adoyo than they are to any "athiestic materialist science worshipper".

Bottom line? If you can't handle the FACTS, stay the fuck away from science. That goes the same for the people who want to smash million year old bones as it goes for the folks who want to get Darwin out of public schools because they think he causes kids to screw before they get married.

[Odin2005]

67. Cryingshame is a nut, ignore her.

[Hoping4Change]

44. lolol NT

[babylonsister]

4. Diversion! Distraction!! Enough with the debates!!! nt

[Warren DeMontague]

16. Heh?

There is no "debate". There's a wholesale war on science and fact being waged all over the globe by glassy-eyed fundamentalist shitwits.

That's not a distraction, that's pretty damn important.

[BlooInBloo]

7. So?

Religion has been unfailingly anti-knowledge at least since the 1500s, presumably even longer.

It wouldn't be religion if it wasn't anti-knowledge.

[racaulk]

8. For the last time, there is no such thing as evolution!

God put that skeleton in the ground to tempt you with thinking that evolution is real and to test your faith. Don't you see that?

I'm series.

[The_Casual_Observer]

9. What if god invented evolution too?

& let it happen?

[BlooInBloo]

11. LOLOL!!! Good one!

[and-justice-for-all]

19. Well then, who invented Gawd?

I am going to go with MAN invented Gawd.

[Warren DeMontague]

49. Everything HAS to have a creator, silly pants!

Except, you know, the Creator. He's exempt. And infallible. And unknowable.


And he wants you to stop touching yourself.

[jgraz]

51. It's turtles all the way down

But yes, they all want you to stop touching yourself.

[Warren DeMontague]

62. "turtles all the way down"

Yeah, and I think I found a picture of one of them turtles:

[and-justice-for-all]

74. It my body..I can do wha I want, I can do wha I want!! nt

[cool user name]

63. Man created God in his own image ...

Too bad the real higher power is readily dismissed by the fundamentalists of all stripes.

[bklyncowgirl]

22. That, I believe, is the way the Catholics see the issue as well as mainstream Protestants.

God sent the natural forces in motion and then let them take their course. Volcanoes, the gulf stream, glaciers and evolution. The big guy primed the machine and basic ly keeps his hands off.

It's sort of like the doctrine of free will. There are universal rules for human behavior, it is up to humans to follow or not. When humans do not follow these universal rules--Do unto others as you would have them do unto you--is the most famous version--you get war, oppression and nasty human beings.

God was not responsible for the Holocaust, Hitler and the people who bought his lies and hatred are responsible for the Holocaust.

[cool user name]

64. I agree. n/t

[and-justice-for-all]

76. Even though I would subtract "god" out of the equation...

...I can come to a common-ground with the your comment, it is closer to being realistic rather then being superstitious and dogmatic.

In the "The Self Gene", Dawkins applies that same primes to genes/DNA. The Genes set survival machines into montion and hope for the best, all the genes/DNA want to do is survive not all cost and its worked. For millions of years genes/DNA has evolved and shaped life on this planet through natural selection. I can not submit to saying that a supreme-entity created the universe, its has yet to be shown that such a thing existed, but for some such silliness gets becomes real to them because its easy. It is hard to wrap your brain around the concept of how we and the universe came to be...

I for one have come to the notion that, the universe has always been. We or this galaxy are relativly new on a galactic scale of things, the big bang as I have thought about it was the ignition of the Sun and from there started the systematic formation of the Milky Way. As we see Galaxies being formed, that same process shaped this Galaxy.

[Beelzebud]

29. I used that argument on an ID'er. He was speechless. He had never considered it before.

This guy is very smart, he's very open minded, and when I presented him with the idea that evolution doesn't contradict god, if god was the thing that set it into motion.

I'm a total atheist. I don't believe in invisible beings that watch us like Alberto Gonzalez on crack. But I really wanted this guy to see that science only threatens faith, if the faithful let it.

[Arugula Latte]

73. "I don't believe in invisible beings that watch us like Alberto Gonzalez on crack."

:rofl:

I want that for my sig line!

[and-justice-for-all]

75. Nor do I....nt

[spoony]

41. In Genesis

when God causes life to appear, the text says he made the earth to produce life. That could be taken that as evolution. It is the earth which is cooking up life, albeit at the behest of God.

"And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature"

"And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind"

I'm not a linguist or translator, or even much for plowing Genesis for literal truth, but these verses are interesting.

[Miss Chybil]

43. Who'd a thunk it? nt

[Octafish]

12. Dumbest Homo erectus was smarter than the little turd from Crawford will ever be.

Heh heh heh. No foolin'.

Ook ook koo chook.

[Pacifist Patriot]

38. LOL!

[cool user name]

66. Bush is known in scientific circles as "Crawford Man"

or Homo Stupidicus.

While some scientists marvel at how Crawford Man is related in anyway to modern humans (Homo Sapiens), others have subscribed to the theory that Crawford Man was a result of massive inbreeding within the Homo Bushiticus family, an earlier hominid species suspected of rape, theft and murder of their surrounding habitat. Though Bushiticus was thought to be extinct well prior to the emergence of Crawford man, the many genetic similiarities, along with a general disregard for the environment, have many scientists supporting the relation.

[lvx35]

13. So who put that skeleton in the ground?

This is what these people are really saying:

"I peddle bullshit, I know its bullshit, and this truth is really hurting my bullshit business."

If these people really cared about religious TRUTH, they'd be wondering about this God that put all these fossils in the ground and why this infallible interpretation of the Bible doesn't mention this.

[Evoman]

14. "I peddle bullshit, I know its bullshit, and this truth is really hurting my bullshit business."

Egg-zactly. Great post.

[arcos]

15. He obviously put all those fossils to MAKE us think evolution is fact...

But he's just fooling around with us. ;)

[China_cat]

17. And the 'religious' leaders who spout this crap never

bother to realize that what they are saying is 'god lies'.

[lvx35]

70. yes! "God" lies, or "God" is not running the show.

I for one am interested only in the God that IS running the show, and I would never presume to question the truthfulness of such an all powerful being...If God wanted me to interpret these fossils as a joke, She/He would have buried a rubber chicken 2-million years deep in the fossil record. The message I get from these fossils is that humanity is deeply tied at the roots to ALL life on earth, and we need to start thinking that way.

[China_cat]

71. The other thing to confound the creationists

is DNA. If people were a 'special creation' as they want everyone to believe, then human DNA shouldn't even contain the same amino acids as all other life...it should be TOTALLY different.

[mtnester]

35. I had a fundie answer that question

It is the Devil's work...distracting us from the truth.

I also asked about dinosaurs....I was told if God wanted us to know all about that, he would have told us or would tell us....since it does not pertain to us, we do not need to know anyway.

I stopped talking because I thought my brain was going to boil out through my ears if I talked to her one more second...I never spoke to her again because I was fearful I would look at her like a rabid dog and consider putting her down because she was stark raving mad...I myself did not really want to go to prison...you understand.

[lvx35]

69. Oh, its Satan...

and God can't stop him from placing this evidence all across the universe...Now WHO exactly is the master of the universe again? Who is the "Almighty"?

Not God, if you area fundamentalist. Absolutely bizarre.

[Maven]

45. Satan, obviously.

As a "test." :eyes:

[and-justice-for-all]

18. Yes Father; The truth is in the fossils...

..Not your silly dogma. They better show those fossils and not cave into the delusional masses.

EVOLUTION IS MY NAME.

[originalpckelly]

21. Hey Bishop, that's not the only thing killing the faith, the big man has bad customer service...

First of all, whenever I call for room service, he never sends me any food. I specifically asked for fried manna, and I haven't seen any yet.

Secondly, his customer service line only picks up half the time, and then I have to get down on my knees to beg for service. This is no way to run a universe.

Not only that, but I've never even seen the guy, not even once. You'd think the owner would pop in on the business every once and a while, but nope, not him. The best he could do was send his long-haired hippie stoner son, and that guy, well we won't even go there.

I'm telling you right now, God better get out of the universe business. Either that, or the investors should fire him and bring in new management.

[treestar]

31. Applause, very clever

:yourock:

[originalpckelly]

40. Aw, thanks...

:hi:

[donco6]

24. If science can kill your faith, perhaps your God is too small. n/t

[Canuckistanian]

25. This skeleton is only a theory - pay no attention to it

And so are the hundreds of other pre-human skeletons.

[TZ]

26. I feel like we are moving back to medieval times

When the Church made law on everything whatever the facts were. Just substitute secular liberal for heretic...

[treestar]

32. There are some fundies whose minds are still in medieval times

If it's in the Bible, God said it, I believe it, that's the end of it.

They also think the mind is just material, or the head is an empty vessel, so that if the libruls get a chance to put their stuff if there, the person with the vessel will automatically behave godlessly. Oh and that torture will make a person tell the truth.

[TZ]

27. Oh and I forgot you can probably substitue ..

AIDS (the so-called gay plague at one point) with the Black Death both of which the Church has pretty much said were caused by God being angry at sinners....

[bleedingheart]

34. Kenyans should ignore him and be proud to be one of the birthplaces

of humanity.

From Africa came all of us...if I was a Kenyan (in in a way aren't we all..)...I think this discovery is marvelous and should be displayed and viewed...

[Pacifist Patriot]

37. Biblical literalists are idiots.

I usually try to avoid name calling when at all possible, but this is just not one of those times. I'll grant ignorance to some of them, but by and large, it's sheer idiocy. And frankly, proof to me that the idiot has probably not read or studied the Bible. I know I'm jaded, but I remain flabbergasted that anyone can make it through seminary with literal hermeneutics in tact.

[Miss Chybil]

42. "killing our faith" ???

I thought faith had nothing to do with facts. You either have it, or you don't.

[NashVegas]

52. I Was Just About to Post Something Like That

I once read an interview with Pete Townshend, in the very late 1980s, where the interviewer kept returning the topic to the subject of licensing important rock songs to commercial advertisers. While many purists abhor it, Pete defends his right to.

One passage in particular stood out. The interviewer mentioned the dancing raisins and how he didn't want that image replacing his own associations with the song.

Pete finally got fed up and said something along the lines of, "If your memories of 'Heard It Through the Grapevine' are so fragile that they could be disrupted by dancing raisins, they weren't that strong in the first place."

I feel that way about religious fundies who try to hold back the facts of our origins. Their faith isn't that strong in the first place.

[Miss Chybil]

59. Perfectly said. nt

[Maven]

46. Somehow this reminds me of a scene from "Liar, Liar"

Lawyer: "I OBJECT your honor!!!"

Judge: "On what grounds?"

Lawyer: "Because it's DEVASTATING to my case!"

[A HERETIC I AM]

58. "Your Honor, I move for a recess" "On what grounds? "I CAN'T LIE!"

"Motion denied."

Funny movie and an appropriate quote.

[EstimatedProphet]

47. Finally the fundies admit the truth:

I did not evolve from Turkana Boy or anything like it,"

Truth hurts, don't it? Like I always said, fundies are just pissed off that we evolved and they didn't.

[Bake]

53. Why are they so afraid of the truth?

So afraid of it that they must lock it away in a museum basement? Who was it who said, "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" -- oh, that's right, it was Jesus.

Ironic, huh.

Bake

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. I wonder...

what are this Bishop's ties to American Evangelical groups?

[verse18]

56. "I did not evolve from Turkana Boy or anything like it,"

I guess it's better to believe Man was fashioned out of dirt and Women were created from the rib of said dirt man.

[HuffleClaw]

57. QUICK!!! avert your eyes from the truth!!! hide it away!!!

what a bunch of loons. wow.

[Little Wing]

60. It's a TRICK!

God put it there to F with our aetheist non-believing heads

[roguevalley]

61. the turkana boy is a miracle. these people are asses. for godsake,

respect your past. this skeleton is a miracle.

[slackmaster]

65. Poor lad must have perished in the Flood

:sarcasm:

[Odin2005]

68. Hey you dumbfuck bishop, WE HAVE THE FOSSILS, WE WIN.

The level of fundamentalism among 3rd World Christians make our fundies look harmless by comparison.

[Arugula Latte]

72. Oh great, one more destructive American export despoiling the world --

Psychochristofascism