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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 02:19 PM
Original message
I am not against steroid use in professional sports...
Not necessarily.

Right now, they are illegal, so yes, I don't believe an athlete should use a banned substance in a sport, whether it is human growth hormone, EPO, Anabolic steroids or whatever. If it is banned by a sport, then an athlete shouldn't use it.

Here is a confession, and a little bit about my background. I was once a serious athlete. (both as a wrestler and a bull rider, but wrestling became my primary focus eventually) I was one of those guys who was probably a notch under being world class. (I do plan on coming out of retirement to find out whether I was good enough or not for sure, it's just something I have to do before I get too old) At one time, I considered taking steroids. Partly to help heal up some serious injuries, and also partly because I am small, and the World Body eliminated the two lowest weight classes, which effectively ended my career. This was also before MMA had weight classes or submission wrestling caught on. I had no place to go, so I had to either bulk up or retire. I considered both, and I considered using anabolic steroids as a measure if I was to bulk up.

In the end, I had seperate health issues that hastened my retirement, but before that, I decided against using steroids.

Why?

Well, for a wrestler, I didn't think it was necessary. Through adequate nutrition and supplementation, coupled with hard work and a weight lifting regimen that consisted of heavier weights, lower repetitions and lifting until failure, I believed a shortcut was unnecessary. I was an athlete in a combat sport, not an athlete who was a power lifter or bodybuilder. I felt I could gain muscle effectively using my brain. Most of the battle in building muscle is knowing how to do it. It's a science. It's technique. Sure, the work is hard, but you can work even harder and lift foolishly and never make the gains you could by utilizing the proper science of it all. I felt it wasn't practical for me as a wrestler to take a shortcut, and nor was it ethical in that instance.

And in my comeback, should I fully undertake it, I will not use any illegal substances, not steroids or anything like that.

That being said, here is why I am not against the use of steroids in professional sports. And notice that I said "professional." I don't believe High School and College age athletes should use steroids at all. But pros, that may be a different story.

Steroids aren't necessarily bad for a person at all, under the proper guidance. It's the abuse that does the damage. If you look at elite professional bodybuilders those guys are juiced up to the max, yet the truly elite guys never have the damaging health problems that we have seen from steroid users in other sports. Why is that? Because elite bodybuilders use anabolic steroids under doctor supervision. They do it properly. They get bloodwork done routinely. They are monitored closely and given physicals constantly.

Is that necessarily ethical from a competitive standpoint? In bodybuilding it is, because everybody uses. It's part of the sport. You couldn't even get on stage if you never used. Not really possible.

In baseball though is it ethical? No, it's not. Steroids are a banned substance. Now anyway. Ten years ago they definitely were not. They weren't tested for or anything. So even then using performance enhancers wasn't the most ethical thing either. Prohormones weren't even banned then. (I used those, sometimes I still do, they are over the counter supplements, however if I was to compete again, I wouldn't touch them for ethical purposes, but as a civilian they are fine) So the use of steroids in baseball before they were effectively tested for and banned is a sketchy problem. They aren't truly ethical, but then they weren't exactly defined by baseball as cheating, even though other sports definitely have them banned and tested for.

Now, if baseball, football or any other sports decided to regulate steroids by not making them a banned substance and allowing athletes to use them with a doctor's prescription and under their care, I would not be opposed to that. I wouldn't be happy about it either, but I could see that and understand that action.

Because if used properly and under a physician's care, steroid abuse and the health risks involved could be nullified as much as possible.

Now I know I am opening myself up to a big critique, and I, myself, have serious questions about it too. Because I can't say that it would be altogether right even if banned substances were monitored by the sport in this manner.

But I will say this, and I think every sports fan should consider this as well.

We are all fickle and greedy as fans.

When I watch football, I love to see some monster linebacker knock somebody nearly senseless.

When I watch baseball, I love to see a muscled up hitter hit a tape measured home run out of a stadium.

When I watch anything, I love to see athletes perform almost super human feats. And if athletes weren't constantly raising the bar, time and time again, well maybe at some point I would tune out. Or tune in a little less often.

Many fans would.

And step back and think about when Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa were chasing after Roger Maris's home run record in 1998. That was compelling. It was riveting. It gave baseball, a declining sport, a veritable shot in the arm, after several years of listlessness.

And McGwire wasn't clean. He was almost definitely a steroid user. I am not so sure Sosa was clean either.

Oh you could argue baseball is a hand-eye coordination game, and that would be true. I know I could be juiced up with everything in the book and probably could barely even see a 95 MPH fastball let alone hit one.

But that doesn't make it right. And you take a guy who maybe hits twenty balls a year near or around the warning track, juice him up and he's hitting those twenty balls a little further now and you're beginning to make a major difference in the game.

Those extra home runs are what we embrace. Those extra hard bone crunching hits etc.

We love to see those.

We pay good money to do it too.

We demand super human performances.

And athletes pay for it. 300 pound men are not supposed to be able to be that strong or that fast, and neither is a 220 pound running back, so when they hit, it's an ugly scene. And they do it over and over and over. They get concussions. Blow out knees. Wreck shoulders. Destroy their backs.

Later on in their lives these guys can barely get around. They can barely find a comfortable position to sleep in. Most can barely play with their children or have sex with their wives, because their bodies are broken down.

I know this because in many ways I have those same injuries. I wrecked my shoulders. Blew out my knee. Hurt disks in my back and neck. Dislocated my elbow.

And all this was without getting beaten on the way, say an NFL running back is beat on.

So in the end, if all steroids were taken out of sports, given what we have come to expect of athletics, and the price athletes are willing to pay with their bodies, would anybody actually sit back and watch sports that were totally clean and drug free?

I am not so sure anybody would. Even if we say we would. Because why sit around and watch something that was not as exciting as it was before?

Like I said, we are fickle and we are greedy.

And if steroids were regulated and administered and monitored by doctors, well, maybe us demanding fans and the risk taking athletes could all get our cake and eat it too.

Maybe.

I'm not saying it's absolutely right, but I'd rather see steroids used properly if they are going to be used at all.

And I'm not so sure any of us would be willing to support clean competition if we ever did have it.

We might have passed that point already.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's a health risk to the user and that's the bottom line for me.
That should be their informed choice, imho. On the other hand, I'm a Giants fan.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. yeah it is, if abused
not necessarily under a doctor's care. Personally, I would rather have everything clean. Would I watch sports as much though? Not sure. However, knowing guys used banned substances has made me tune out anyway. I could accept it if they were monitored in some way. I wouldn't be happy about it, but it would be better than the status quo. Where we are right now is in an extremely hypocritical place.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. What is been done not isn't working. It's Russian Roulette with
being caught. I agree. And it's such a shame.

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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
29. Two words: Lyle Alzado. n/m
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. who abused steroids and growth hormone
Edited on Sun Jul-22-07 04:09 PM by Wetzelbill
If he had them monitored properly his risk of cancer would have doubtlessly been reduced. We all have that risk, so you can't say it wouldn't have ever happened, but definitely his abuse increased the risk exponentially. He's the perfect example why the current system can't stay in place. Take bodybuilders for example, they cycle drugs their whole careers, but the elite guys do it the proper way. Bodybuilders don't have the same problems that Lyle Alzado or other abusers have had. Plus, human growth hormone is an altogether different animal, possibly more destructive than anabolic steroids. Alzado was using HGH harvested from human corpses, and he was using a ton of it. A person's body is not meant to be abused like that. So you either have to do one thing or the other. Clean up a sport, or find another way to reduce the damage to an athlete's health.

But no, I never mentioned HGH, I'm not sure it can be tested for even now, but I don't believe it should be used, too many risks and unknowns. Plus, unnecessary in a system where steroids could be monitored, because HGH is mainly used because it is undetectable. So you raise a valid issue in bringing up Alzado, but it probably proves my point more than anything, because of the specific substance he used and the damage it did to his body. The NFL allowed that to happen. If they either cleaned up the sport entirely or monitored the health of it's players, this sort of thing would be minimized.
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Well put. I am, however, loathe to see anyone take a chance like that, you included. n/m
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. I decided long ago not to
Edited on Sun Jul-22-07 04:07 PM by Wetzelbill
even back when I was young and stupid. Morally, I couldn't live with myself in doing so. Unfortunately, people will take that chance and what's bad about it is, by and large, it's allowed to happen. I wish these sports would get cleaned up, but I, as I said, I would begrudgingly accept the monitoring of steroids if it meant curtailing abuses and reducing health risks.
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. I guess I'm "old school".
My perception is that steroids let an athlete spend less time working out while achieving as much if not more strength and bulk than someone seriously taking the natural route and letting their work ethic speak for them, rather than an introducing a foreign substance into their body.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. it actually allows them to work out more
it speeds recovery time. So whereas a normal athlete might lift like 3-4 times a week and require as much rest as possible, a steroid user can lift say 6 times a week and recover. It only works properly if you work harder. The human body is not made undergo that type of stress on it's own, because by not recovering your strength goes down, however if you shorten your recovery time, you are then able to recover faster and work out more often and harder while continuing to increase your results. That is one reason why steroids are so effective in healing, it's the speedy recovery time. Plus, some steroids lubricate your joints more and speed healing that way too. If somebody just takes steroids and sits around, working out infrequently, they pretty much just wasted their time.

That's one reason they are so unfair, because if some guy with an unbelievable work ethic and outstanding natural ability takes them, well they literally become superhuman. It's not right or natural. In the end, that is why they are also so destructive to a person's body. The human body is not meant to get on a hip sled and try to power up over a ton of weight. Your joints can't lift that stuff and are not meant to do so. Muscles might be strong enough to do it, but ligaments and tendons will snap like carrots.

I think nutrition and supplements, plus utilizing proper muscle building science along with hard work are about all an athlete needs. At least in most sports. Like power lifters and bodybuilders, that is just way on a different level. And in those sports the top guys are strictly monitored for health reasons. It's effective too.

Oh also, never discount the mental game. Being mentally strong is probably 95 percent of the battle.
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Irreverend IX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
61. A health risk to the user?
Every sport is a health risk to the participant. I don't think steroid use should be permitted, though. Athletes today use them furtively, but if they become mainstream sports will quickly become nothing but a contest to see who can afford the best drugs.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. Anabolic steroids when abused to "bulk up"
cause serious, life long harm. I don't care what weight class some bureaucrat eliminated: DO NOT USE STEROIDS!

/rant off

I want them kept illegal in pro sports for the same reason I don't want to see football players add flame throwers to the sport.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. oh I said I never would
Well yes, almost everybody says they want them illegal, but even though they exist and are rampant, we all tune in and marvel at unnatural feats of athleticism every week. So something has to give either way, because abuse is a problem and athletes are suffering in the current system.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. As someone who sometimes has to take steroids for medical reasons...
I am aware of their side effects, and would *not* recommend their use in sports.

I would definitely sit back and watch sports that were totally clean and drug free. I would rather see healthy bodies than those that are being messed around with. Also, professional sportspeople are a role model to many young people who are preoccupied with strength and fitness.

I don't think that steroid use in sports should be a criminal offense; but I think it should be a professional disqualification.
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OlderButWiser Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. What were you using
anabolic steroids for?
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #11
60. Not anabolic steroids. Prednisone.
Edited on Mon Jul-23-07 04:49 AM by LeftishBrit
For Crohn's disease. It is very useful when medically needed; but I wouldn't use it other than for medical treatment.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
26. I agree. I've had to be on them for medical reasons three times. What a
pain in the butt. And while they helped tame the infection, they sure as shit comprimised my immune system.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #3
64. Use of steroids in violent contact sports is just flat-out dangerous
Equipment and allowable strikes are largely designed around normal human physiology. Supercharging football players, boxers or MMA fighters is only going to result in a lot more, and more serious, injuries.

Adding velocity is a very tricky business because of how energy equations work.
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
4. Interesting and very well written
but I must say seeing Hank Aaron hit a home run was more satisfying on many levels than watching Bonds or Sosa crank one out. It's less to do with steroids than with the crap pitching these days. Expansion made the problem worse. Baseball hasn't been the same for me since Bob Gibson retired. I still love the game, but it's not what I grew up with. Drug-free baseball is a step in the right direction, but it'll take a lot more than that to restore America's pastime to its former glories.

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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
79. Gibbie! The most feared pitcher in baseball history.
According to SI, at least. I loved him! As a batter, you never knew if Gibbie meant to put it over the plate or in your ear! He'd throw at his grandma!

I'd love to see Barry Bonds go up against Gibson.

Bake
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OlderButWiser Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
5. I, too, would not be against
the use of steroids by professional athletes. I couldn't possibly say why I feel that way as eloquently as you did (obviously you have exercised your mind as well as your body).

I don't see it as an unfair advantage any more than I see proper diet, vitamins and a good weight lifting program as an unfair advantage.

BTW- for some reason this discussion reminds me of this clip from SNL from several years ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrCGYtFAQ2U
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. I consider it unfair
if it is banned, and their are people out there playing by the rules while others don't. The big problem for me is the status quo treats athletes like garbage. They are stuck between a weak testing policy and creating revenue for a business. An enhanced athlete is good for business, unless they are caught, because that becomes an image and marketing problem. Allowing steroids through prescription and monitored under a doctor's care, reduces the health problems for the players, because they are the ones who pay the price of competing. My purist's instinct is to be adamantly against them, but I would accept them being monitored and regulated in this way.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
6. Well, wouldn't allowing steroids to be used just turn baseball and football
into nothing more than 'professional' wrestling? We like to see people tackle, hit, throw, and run, that's true. But what would it benefit the sport if their abilities were due to drugs, not talent?

Not to mention that steroids aren't good for a person. And there's always those that if you let steroids into sports, they'll abuse it.

No, if someone is a great athelete, it comes naturally. Drug induced athleticism would take the sport out of sports.
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OlderButWiser Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. You don't just
take a couple of shots of steroids and get big muscles the next day. There is still an incredible amount of work to get the physique of say a pro wrestler.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Oh please, I know that. It's still artificial.
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OlderButWiser Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. There is nothing artificial
about the muscle at all. It's totally functional but takes months and months of hard work to attain.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. Okay you win. Steroids are good for ya and good for sports. It makes
Edited on Sun Jul-22-07 03:27 PM by acmavm
atheletics sooooooooo clean. And shame on those who don't stoop to using artificial 'enhancements'. What fools.

We can justify anything here on DU I've noticed. (And sometimes I do it to. But at least I try to keep it morally or ethically justifiable.)
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
36. yeah but do you watch sports knowing that
they aren't clean? If so, why do you do so, if you are morally against it? It's a definite moral conundrum being stuck in a position where you both are against yet support the status quo. I know I do these things. I want a sport to be clean, but I still watch knowing it is not. Not only that, I marvel at superhuman efforts, which are most likely drug enhanced efforts. I marvel at Lance Armstrong's story, but, in my heart, I would say he probably used EPO at some point.

A person can't honestly be against performance enhancing drugs, yet applaud drug enhanced performances and/or stay content with the status quo. Morally, those don't add up.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. You're right. If I decide to watch any football this fall, I'll go and demand
that the players piss in a cup so that I can watch the spectacle and enjoy it with a clear conscience.

Aren't these guys being monitored now? Am I supposed to tar everyone with the same brush as those that do use steroids?

It makes NO SENSE to advocate something that is basically harmful.

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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. no they aren't monitored
they are tested. Randomly. And it's a poor system. I have to ask, what do you think I wrote about? I don't advocate harmful steroid abuse in anyway. It makes no sense to allow the system to largely turn a blind eye to abuse. You either clean up a sport stringently, or find a way to monitor the problem. Are steroids basically harmful? If abused, yeah. Monitored and under a doctor's care the risks are minimal. Still not the greatest thing in the world for somebody in certain ways, but minimal. I don't necessarily advocate allowing steroids to be used in sports, but if it changed the status quo and helped save lives, I would accept it. I can't just sit by and be content with the system as it is, one way or the other. Players are not cattle, so find a better way to rectify the system.

But you aren't tarring everyone with the same brush, because it isn't just one or two people, in football especially, who use steroids. You're talking probably around 75 percent of the league who has used them at some point. That's rampant. And by supporting the system, it is already advocating something that is harmful. We all do that to an extent.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. it's passed that, if you think it isn't you're lying to yourself
Steroid use is as prevalent in those sports, if not moreso, than in pro wrestling. And pro wrestlers have a tremendous amount of skill, many are former college or pro athletes themselves. They use drugs to enhance their physiques, not necessarily their performances. In other pro sports, they use steroids to enhance performance. The skill set is already there, the talent is already there, otherwise a football player or baseball player wouldn't have made it that far. Drugs enhance those abilities. So what you're getting at isn't accurate, because their abilities are not due to only drugs or talent, but a combination of both. Not all, of course, but plenty of them. Athleticism isn' drug induced though. It's drug enhanced. If you're concerned about it, at least from that standpoint, taking the "sport out of sports" well that concept has long been dead.

Steroids aren't good for a person, yes, especially if abused. However, they already are rampant, and they already are being abused. I am for effective testing. I'll always be a fan. But if sports were clean, lots of people wouldn't be. If they're going to be eliminated, well, eliminate them. However, I would begrudgingly accept it if governing bodies chose to regulate them in a different way. And the health risks would be greatly minimized in doing so.
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poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
8. As a lifelong sports fan who could never play due to a lifelong hip ailment, I have to
disagree. I would kill just to be healthy enough to play (I've also hung out with many users and seriously considered it myself as well.).
Watching Mcgwire and Sosa kind of sucked because you knew it wasn't real. I will be very disappointed when Aaron's record is broken for that same reason. It just doesn't seem real. I honestly never got bored watching athletes who weren't breaking records or setting new bar height all the time because it is still exciting to watch someone with a lifetime of hard-won skill connect with the ball or take it to the goal, or whatever.

Steroid users are not only harming themselves, they are cheating themselves out of an honest feeling of having earned their triumph. Not to mention cheating those who are playing and not using.

Give me a good game without the unhealthy, oversized, could they have won if their "mix" was adjusted a bit bullshit.

I want to see real.
Steroids are fake.

I want to know who the best is.
Steroids take away that certainty.

Anyone who needs to see a game on steroids is not a real fan.

Of course just my opinion...
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OlderButWiser Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Babe Ruth...
...didn't lift weights or take the advice of a trainer. Is everyone that did lift weights and followed the advice of a trainer cheating too?
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Kingofalldems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. This made his accomplishments even more phenomenal
I understand Ruth used to send the bat boy to pick up a half a dozen or so hot dogs---during the game.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. yeah but players in those days used stimulants
They aren't as effective as steroids for sure, but as long as there has been sports competition people have tried to figure out ways to have an edge. That's paltry compared to what science has created now and all, but that edge has always been sought after.

As for Ruth, I am not sure if he took any type of stimulant, whether for alertness or whatever, but we'd never know because baseball never tested for that or anything then. He certainly had an excessive lifestyle that does make his accomplishments pretty phenomenal.

He's interesting because even though he was hardly ripped up or in great shape by our standards, but he did do farm work and was a definitely strong guy. And man, could he hit. His gift for hitting home runs is incomparable. He'd hit more home runs than most teams would during a year. Plus he was a great pitcher too.
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poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
59. I hugely respect someone like the Babe who has so much natural ability that he can do well
regardless. I respect those who try very hard with what they have been naturally endowed with. I don't respect those who expect to play on the same level when they are using something those others don't or can't, and which elevates their abilities to an inhuman and unhealthy capacity.

I think the requirement to use 'roids to do well and get ahead is unfair, uncool, and rightly illegal. If everyone were to use them, then no one would need to use them, if you take my meaning.

Does that answer your question?
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. but the status quo is unacceptable
Edited on Sun Jul-22-07 03:19 PM by Wetzelbill
Being a fan, and still supporting the status quo while at the same time disagreeing with it, is a weak position. One that I have found myself in pretty much forever. I say clean the sport up, but I still love a big bone crunching hit, at least as much as the next fan. But efforts to clean sports up are half-assed and difficult. Meanwhile, athletes are having their bodies destroyed both by drugs and intense competition. The human body is not meant to deal with that stress. So if governing bodies were to regulate steroids and allow doctors to monitor athletes, I would not like that so much, but I would accept it. I am not for steroids in sports, but in a way I am not against them either. Not if they were allowed under strict circumstances. I still believe they should have testing, because there is a difference between getting drugs monitored, and somebody coming in and doing amounts detrimental to their health. I do think testosterone to epitestosterone levels should still be tested, and a ratio deemed abusive should be considered too.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
9. Being a professional athlete requires damaging the body to make it perform temporarily

There just isn't anyway around it anymore. Professional athletes, even without drugs or steroids, are pushing their bodies in ways that ultimately damage the body.

I say let them use steroids.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
30. I think something has to give
why allow sports to be rampant with them and only utilize half ass measures at the expense of an athlete's health? Yeah it's an individual choice, but it's a dog eat dog business. If you don't perform you don't become a star or an every day player and you don't get a ton of money. Meanwhile, owners make money off of these players. Do you think owners want to reform the system all that much when people are paying tons of money to watch guys perform at nearly inhuman levels? Right now, the system is not morally acceptable.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
14. Its not just hitters who are jacked up on steroids. Pitchers, too. And here's something about Bonds
that many people may not know, I think it speaks volumes about his natural affinity for the game: He has, aside from his astounding HR, RBI, slugging and on base percentages, and hits (all of which, opponents argue, could be a result of steroid use), over 500 career stolen bases. That is something...
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
33. Bonds is a sad case because he is such a rare athlete in the first place
He was a 40-40 guy even before his possible use came into question. Most of those stolen bases came when he was younger and a bit more of a speed player, but still the guy is amazing. His proclivity for the game is unbelievable. He and Ken Griffey Jr are probably the two greatest natural athletes to ever play the game. Unbelievable athleticism.

Plus, his work ethic is astounding. People dwell on the roid shit, but Bonds is an older guy who kept himself in shape into his forties. He'd be up and at the track working out like at 7am. He's a remarkable guy, but he's also a black mark on the game too. McGwire too. He doesn't get the wrath he deserves because Bonds came along and started shattering records, and plus Barry is perceived, often justifiably, as an insufferable jerk.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. McGwire loved talking to reporters, Bonds does not. I think thats the big difference
the press has never really liked him.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. exactly right
Bonds is a total villain. People love to hate that guy. Some is justified but probably some is not. The guy can play though. Unfortunately the drug stuff will forever taint him. As it stands, Bonds will be considered an talented asshole who cheated his way to greatness. Even if he was great before.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. yeah, I can't believe the number of people rooting against his breaking the record
not like it matters. ARod is on pace to shatter anything Bonds achieves anyway. Its a matter of time.
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OlderButWiser Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #47
62. At least
they aren't rooting against him for the same reasons they were rooting against Hank Aaron.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #62
81. amen to that
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
17. I remember a quote from John Kruk years ago
He was in a hotel lobby smoking a cigarette and a woman came up and told him it was disgusting to see an athlete doing that. He replied, "Ma'am, I'm not an athlete, I'm a ballplayer."

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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. oh yeah, I loved Kruk
a hilarious guy. He had a natural ability to hit a ball. An amazing guy really.
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
20. I'm for Ricky Williams being able too be a stoner and still play football.
:shrug:

Steriods should strickly be used to heal injuries and that's all I have to say.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. well yes
they should only be used in that way. But that would only exist in a perfect world under a perfect system. We are far from that right now. Either clean the sport out, or find someway to get out of the terrible system in place. What exists now, is untenable.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
38. Your argument is flawed
Steroids are NEVER safe or without side effects. They are very powerful and should NEVER be used to heal faster or build up muscle.
Have you ever met anyone on steroids for health reasons? I think not or you would not be making this argument. Steroids are always destructive to the liver, cause damage and do a great deal of things that are unpleasant. The people who take them for health reasons have to live with serious sides and are CONSTANTLY monitored for health issues. They do permanment and irreversible damage.Lets not even get into the personality changes that these steroids can cause as well.
Look, cocaine has some medicinal effects (as a painkiller) but you don't hear people saying that we should let atheletes use cocaine to enhance their abilities do they. Steroids are a CONTROLLED AND DANGEROUS substance and should stay the same . Even under close doctor supervision they are dangerous. Anybody who says anything is has no clue what they are talking about.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. I didn't make that argument
But yes, I have met people who have been on them for health reasons. (met people who were on Test too for health reasons) They are not always destructive to the liver, they can be, but not always. They do definitely have health risks, however those are minimal. At least under a doctor's care and utilized properly. If a person was to do a six-week cycle of anabolic steroids, under a doctor's care, strictly monitored for health issues, there is almost a zero percent chance of permanent and irreversible damage. And if an issue started to arise, well, it would be detected right away.

Now those problems that you said, yes they occur when somebody is ABUSING steroids. But I'm not talking about that. As it stands black market steroids have serious problems that can exacerbate these problems, but any side effects to pure anabolic steriods are almost exclusively dose dependent.

But no, under close doctor supervision the risks are minimal. Nothing has ever been concluded otherwise, so unless you are a doctor with world-class expertize in the field who has just discovered something in the last few hours or so, what you said is not true. They definitely can be dangerous, but not in the manner you described them.

My argument that I made which you never addressed is that the status quo in athletics is not acceptable. Sports should either be absolutely cleaned up, or they should find another way to prevent the abuse of steroids. So while I am not against steroids being used under a doctor's care under strict supervision, I am not necessarily for it either. It is better than standing by and watching athletes kill themselves and destroy their bodies through abuse. So, I would accept their regulation, even though I wouldn't exactly like it, rather than watch the status quo make weak attempts to clean up sports.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #44
57. How about knowingly eating cholesterol loaded food
again and again. Steroids are large cholesterol molecules and they do strain the liver. They also contribute to build up in the arteries, and can lead to heart disease/damage in even healthy people. These hormones are nothing to play with. They are extremely potent. As I said to someone else I am concerned enough about these kinds of hormones which are chemically similar to things like estrogen and progesterone that are linked to various cancers and blood clots even in not excessively large doses that I wouldn't let my mother do them for her menopause. They are controlled for a reason! They are the same as methamphetamines, and other illegal drugs. But unlike them they actually promote artifical health and your body becomes somewhat dependant on them and if you stop you get ill even in moderate doses. Again I have watched people who weren't on terrifically high doses have some very unpleasant effects with either staying on them or getting off them. I have never met anyone in the biology field who thinks that short courses of steroids are okay for normal healthy people.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #38
49. Oh, sweet 12" talking Jesus
Talk about not having a clue...
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. thank you doctor
Its natural so its safe right? Jeebus, any hormone is dangerous. I wouldn't let my mother take hormones for her menopause for the same reason. I learned about steroids from a college professor whose PhD was in reproductive biology.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. And how long ago was that?
And did this doctor specialize in steroids for athletic performance?

I read about steroids, peruse studies about them, every week. Recent, updated studies. I'm also quite friendly with a good number of folks that do use them, and they talk about them. I constantly learn about steroids. Spare me your dated PhD, opinionated fancy book-learning.

Tossing your mother's menopause/hormone issue into this shows your ignorance on the topic at hand.
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Oeditpus Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
40. If pro sports allowed limited, controlled use of steroids
as you describe, there would still be players who'd refuse to take them, citing health concerns, personal morality issues or whatever. That would put them at an unfair disadvantage to the players who used steroids, and that, in turn, would make sports more about medical technology than athleticism.

"We can make him... better." But should we?

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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. which is basically what we have now
accept if monitored the health risks would be greatly minimized.

Why not go for an all out effort to clean the sports up? Especially when the people who pay the price are the athletes. Those who are abusing their bodies and those who are competing against people with an unfair advantage. The fans get to watch superhuman feats and the owners get to reap profits. Meanwhile players are like cattle. Clean sports up or find another way to reduce the abuse.
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OlderButWiser Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
42. Can we inject the story about the...
... Double-Amputee Runner's Bid for Gold Hampered by Rain, Disqualification
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,289450,00.html
LONDON — The prosthetic legs double-amputee sprinter Oscar Pistorius uses provide less air resistance than normal legs, the IAAF said Monday.

Pistorius, who wears curved, carbon-fiber prosthetic legs, finished second in Rome on Friday and last against elite able-bodied athlete at the British Grand Prix on Sunday. He hopes to compete at the 2008 Beijing Olympics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is his use of his artifical legs an unfair advantage?
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
48. Very well said. I agree with most of what you say.
Steroids and testosterone precursors (real prohormones) are illegal and banned from use for any reason, unless under the advisement of a doctor. Therefore, nobody should be using them in any other application. As such, I think that anabolics should either be legalized for personal use, or the entirety of pro sports should just stop testing for them.

To be honest, and I'm not alone on this, using a moderate cycle of test responsibly is no different than a woman that gets breast implants, a man that gets some kind of hair replacement or the use of botox for cosmetic reasons. In addition, a moderate cycle, when monitored by a doctor doesn't have the boogeyman side effects that folks like to think they have.

As a natural bodybuilder, I've never touched the stuff. As a vegan, I never will (unless told to by a doctor for medical reasons). As a trainer, I've read and studied an awful lot about them, and the hype about how bad they are for people is just that. However, I'll be candid...if someone waved a contract worth millions of dollars in my face, you could put "Deca" across the back of my jersey.

I'm sure that someone will point out, that is if someone hasn't already, that there are a number of pro-bodybuilders that have died and it's been blamed on steroids. Well, considering the amount that they use, it's quite possible that they assisted in their demise, but the likely culprit was their diet and lifestyle. Considering that the giants today are consuming 10,000 plus calories a day and choking down hundreds upon hundreds of grams of protein each day, sporting an off-contest weight of 350 then cycling down (including using diuretics) to a ripped 290 a couple times a year, year after year...yeah, that's worse than steroids.

We can never go back to a totally clean game, regardless of the sport. The disappointment of the fans would kill it. And pro wrestling...steroids shouldn't even be on the radar. Look into painkillers and anti-depressants and scale back the schedules, Vince. Of course, last time I saw Vince in M&F magazine, he looked like he might've been "test"ing himself.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. I used to cut a lot of weight
and I can tell you this, the amount of weight bodybuilders cut over a relatively short period of time is a lot. But what makes it even worse is what they do in their final preparations. I tried diuretics once. Those suck everything out of you. It feels like all your vitamins and minerals are depleted, it is bad stuff. And I didn't take huge abusive amounts of them, just a few here and there. But when you get into final preparation, you know a guy may have already lost 50 pounds in a few months or less, and then they have to tighten up another 20 pounds of water weight, it gets ugly. Like Mohammed Benaziza, that guy just couldn't get his electrolytes back in balance. That stuff all is hard on a person's body, and to do it the wrong way is absolutely dangerous. Like what I know now, man, I wished I knew it 15 years ago. It would have saved me a lot of time and stupidity.

Vince has taken steroids before. Wouldn't doubt it if he still did from time to time.

Painkillers are definitely a problem. Also liver and kidney problems in athletes can be linked to ibuprofen abuse, not necessarily steroids. A lot of times guys fail physicals because they have been popping 20 aspirin a day for a few years or so. The lifestyles are destructive for sure.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. What really makes me shake my head on the whole issue
is that McGuire used andro, a pro-hormone, and nobody cared because it was legal. Now, if someone with a stash of 1-AD starts upper decking balls, will it matter? Sure, because it's illegal. Someone finds some leftover Gaspari's Methyl-1-T and all hell will break loose, because, well now, it's illegal. Is it only cheating if the law is involved?

What about creatine? An absolutely PROVEN performance enhancer, especially today's lovely options. It's legal, and it gives a definite edge. That's okay, because it's legal.

So, it's okay for a legal guy with a bloodstream full of creatine ethyl malate, L-Arginine AKG, stacking synephrine and caffeine (or someone that stocked up on ephedra before the ban), popping Novadex XT like they're Tic Tacs to compete, but not for a guy with a syringe of cypionate. Whatever.
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
50. I used steroids.I agree with what you say.
Obtaining steroids illegaly puts the user at a lot of risk.Most of the steroids that are used come from asia,and are of dubious quality,or are animal steroids.I was a powerlifter and strength sport competitor,and it was the norm at the time..The physiological changes in women are lifelong and very evident.If,however,the levels were monitored,and the drugs came from a reputable pharmaceutical company,it would be better for all involved.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. Is that
you in your avatar? Nice f'ing delts!
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. LOL>.I wish.It's Iris Kyle
I am a shorter,blonder,older version of that.
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JacquesMolay Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
52. Only if there's a separate league for them.
n/t
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
63. How about some sort of Steroid League.
A league for steroid users to take steroids and do whatever sport it is they want to do, and then have a real league for the real athletes.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #63
65. nobody would watch the clean league
over half the players in a sport would have to go to the steroid league. Then eventually some people in the clean league would start deciding it would be an advantage to them to take steroids and compete against others who are clean, so they'll start in again. Next thing you know you'll have two steroid leagues. One that admits to it, and the other that tries to hide it. The mess would just start all over, because the system is effed up.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. I think nobody would watch the steroid league.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. people care about quality of play
When all the major stars leave a league, and most of the decent players of every day player ability, then bascially all you have is a league of Triple A type caliber. Nobody would watch that.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. And nobody likes a cheater.
:shrug:
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. yeah nobody does
but they'll definitely turn a blind eye to one. That's how they became so rampant in the first place. Lance Armstrong is almost definitely a cheater, but people still think of him as one of the greatest sport stories ever. When you watch a football game, you cannot tell me that, in your heart, you don't know that probably half the guys on the field have at least tried steroids before. I know that, and even though I don't like cheaters, I still watch anyway. We all do. If a league came out where steroids were legal and monitored, people would get over it pretty quick and start tuning in. Even if they say they wouldn't. We are all righteous until we feel like we are missing out on something. So as a sports fan, when people start talking about an amazing game or performance, we naturally want to see it. In the end, we'll end up watching whether or not our fickle sensibilities felt ruffled over the initial decision.

If a league allowed controlled monitoring of steroids people would still watch. They definitely wouldn't sit around and watch an inferior product. It's like baseball in the late 90s, when it got it's resurgence. Only a fool didn't think baseball was rampant with steroids, it wasn't even tested for or anything. Prohormones weren't even banned. Are we supposed to believe that all of a sudden guys just discovered how to hit 50-60 home runs a year? There were guys who were barely even 15-20 homerun hitters belting out 40 or so in just one year. We all knew that, yet we all still watched, and in record numbers. Anybody who says different is either in denial or lying to themselves.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. Blind eye?
No, they assume that everybody's being tested, and that the cheaters are being screened out.

Why do you think everybody's pissed off at Bonds?
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #76
80. people get randomly tested
Cheaters don't get screened out. They know when to cycle off or they find ways around it. Then when they do get caught, which is relatively rare, they get fined or suspended, but eventually get to play again. They can do that several times over. It would be naive to think that even an iota of the percentage of cheaters actually get caught. It's like fighting the drug war. Some smugglers get caught bringing stuff across the border, but the vast majority of them evade the law.

Oh, I'm as pissed at Bonds as anyone. But there are a helluva lot more people than Bonds out there doing it. Barry Bonds isn't the exception, he's just the most visible person regarding the issue. It doesn't help him that he is perceived, in some ways justifiably, as a jerk. But people directing there outrage only at him are just faking it, because steroids are all over. It's not just Barry, it's everybody. But the big sports let guys get away with it. In a sport like MMA where everybody is tested before and after a fight and the consequences are much stiffer, athletes have been getting caught at a higher level. Former NFL receiver Johnnie Morton fought one MMA fight and tested positive for steroids. That's because the testing is strict, and he didn't have time to get that shit out of his system or anything else before he was given the fight. Nobody gave him a heads up or anything like that, he had to take a test and he failed. In the NFL, he never failed a test ever. But I can damn well guarantee you that while he was in the NFL he was using steroids. And he got away with it. Steroids are definitely more prevalent in football than in MMA. They just have ways to get around it.

Cheaters aren't getting screened out. It's ridiculous to think that they are. Maybe it's better now than it used to be, but to actually think that we are watching a clean version of athletics out there is a convenient way of ignoring the problem while it stares us all in the face.
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
66. And all the kids that worship their heroes can take them too?
Like that's ever gonna happen.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #66
70. yup
Edited on Mon Jul-23-07 12:29 PM by Wetzelbill
because you actually read what I wrote. But what you said already does happen, so what's your point?
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #70
75. Make them illegal in professional sports.
Make the penalties harsh. Kids in the local gyms ain't going to the doctor for their crap,thye are emulating their heroes and chasing the big bucks. Get it out of sports is easy.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #75
78. good then let them do it
I'd prefer that. But they won't do it. So what then? Something has to give either way.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
67. I agreed with you until a couple of weeks ago.
The Benoit incident still really creeps me out.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. yeah but steroids wasn't the problem there
It may have played some small part as a combination of lots of other things, but he had way more going on than that. Mental illness was the issue there. Plus, he was a steroid abuser, if anything. What I'm talking about is getting rid of the abuse aspect of it, because that's what does damage to guys bodies etc. Steroids don't make people just flip out like Benoit did, if it did you would see way more pro athletes murdering people and so on. People are more likely to flip out when abusing alcohol or painkillers than steroids. In the Benoit case, steroids were a simple convenient boogeyman for the press to latch onto. It was more complex than that.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
73. sounds like a means to an end to me
the end being your wanting to use steroids and wanting to feel good about doing it. I question your definition of competition. in other words I call bs, sorry
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. yeah but I wouldn't use them
And I'm not a pro athlete. Nor will I ever be. And in the two sports that I maybe could be, utilizing steroids wouldn't even be practical. They wouldn't make me any better. So what the hell are you even talking about? What you said makes no sense whatsoever, and makes me wonder if you even read what I wrote. My definition of competition is this. I went out and competed hard every day. I made myself a very good internationally competitive athlete, through passion and hard work. I was clean of everything, and never used any drug whatsoever outside of good nutrition. I would compete injured, and with a physical disability too. I won titles with a blown out knee, and I used to dislocate my shoulder in the middle of matches and pop it back in then go out and win. I would never even take tylenol or aspirin, that's how clean I was. What I am against is allowing steroids to be rampant in sports, while athletes abuse themselves and owners make money off of it.

So is your definition of competition, to have a weak system for testing for steroids, turn a blind eye while half the league uses them, and not really care while athletes abuse and destroy their bodies?

I would have to ask then, why do you support the abuse of athletes in sports? Because here is what I say, either a sport should be totally cleaned up, or I would begrudgingly accept athletes being allowed to have legal prescriptions and a doctor's strict care in monitoring them while on a cycle. That saves lives and bodies, I wouldn't like it, but it's better than the status quo.
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