Help me find a country where men are second class citizens

[mudesi]

I'm looking at a map of the world right now and I'm having some trouble. Surely somebody can help me out.

I'm trying to find a country on this planet where men are forced to where burkas. Does one exist? I don't need to find two, I'm only looking for one. Certainly, given the size of this planet, the probability is high that at least one single nation forces men to where burkas.

Find me a country where men are not allowed to drive cars. I would like to visit such a place.

How about a country that is run completely by women? No man in the government whatsoever.

Is there not any place on this planet in which the government forces men to stay at home and take care of the children?

What about a country where women are allowed to take multiple husbands, but not the other way around?

I'm looking for the nation that must exist on this planet in all probability in which boys are forced to have surgical procedures that takes away any sexual pleasure from them lest they fall to Satan's evil temptation. Can someone just point on the map and show me that country?

Is there any country on God's Green Earth whose culture makes men feel shame and guilt for any sort of sexual thought or behavior whatsoever? Any country where the number of men raped is greater than the number of women raped? Any country where men are not allowed to join the military? Any country where men are denied medical procedures? Any country where men are beheaded, stoned, or tortured for adultery? Any country where the number of men being verbally, physically, and mentally abused by their wives largely outnumbers the reverse? Any country where men are not allowed to file for divorce, but women are?

Just one country. Give me one. Then dare to respond to this thread with "Yeah, but..."

[Sarah Ibarruri]

1. There are none that I know of.

Maybe there is some indigenous group somewhere where that's the case?

[havocmom]

2. shall I start the thread lock clock?

How long until this is locked for being a man bashing flame bait thread?

[goodgd_yall]

31. Did you realize the OP is written by a man?

Besides, what's to flame? He's pointed out how the world is.

[havocmom]

108. Yes to first question

To second: it is sorta a slam on another thread that got locked and I have some serious questions about the reason stated for the lock, as it seemed to make that thread's OP's point.

There seems to be some powers that don't like threads pointing out how the world is. That was MY point.

[Maddy McCall]

3. Polyandry. Tibet.

[mistertrickster]

12. True . . . there are several places that practice polyandry. SouthSea Islands

too. For some strange reason, they have too few women there.

But polyandry doesn't imply second-class status.

I can't think of any place that institutionalizes gender-discrimination against MEN.

[papau]

26. not currently - but during the lady pharoh's time that was the case. n/t

n/t

[supernova]

4. There are certain societies that are matriarchal

http://www.saunalahti.fi/penelope/Feminism/KhasiGaro.html

[donsu]

5. true

nt

[Skittles]

6. it's a man's world

the results speak for themselves

[FogerRox]

8. the results speak for themselves

LOL.

Wait... thats not really funny.. nevermind

[theredpen]

7. Why would men be forced to dress like women?

Burkas are for women, silly.

The countries which mandate modest dress for women also mandate modest dress for men. Here's one: Saudi Arabia.

I don't know of any country that requires women to wear a burka, however.

Is there any country on God's Green Earth whose culture makes men feel shame and guilt for any sort of sexual thought or behavior whatsoever?

Have you spent much time in Utah?

[undergroundpanther]

38. Men don't cover thier

faces entirely and look at life through a little fabric screen that is just big enough to see in Saudi Arabia. Degree of modesty makes a BIG difference when it is a turban VS a Burkha.

[theredpen]

54. Neither do women

Men don't cover thier(sic) faces entirely and look at life through a little fabric screen that is just big enough to see in Saudi Arabia.

Neither do women. Women do not wear burquas outside of Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Degree of modesty makes a BIG difference when it is a turban VS a Burkha.

Men in Saudi Arabia don't wear turbans. They wear keffiyeh. I realize that a little research might cut into the amount of time you spend perpetuating the "ugly American" stereotype, but Wikipedia is free, you know.

[HereSince1628]

9. Ok, but first you find me a city with a Mall that has more mens clothing stores

than women's clothing stores. Shit, I'll make this easy for you. Find me a city with a Mall that has HALF as many men's clothing stores as women's.

AND I KNOW you're gonna tell me that it's not the same thing. And it isn't. Misogyny is a problem, a huge problem in a lot of places, but misoandry in the Shopping Mall is very American.

[EFerrari]

11. I think shopping malls are a problem, all by themselves.

:rofl:

[HereSince1628]

13. General department stores have about as much floor space for

mens clothing (subtract prepubescent boy's clothing) as they do for kitchenwares.

The good? news is that is statistically significantly more floor space than rubbish containers get.

[EFerrari]

14. Have you ever read Joan Didion's essay on shopping malls?

I think you might enjoy it. :)

[havocmom]

15. Golly, the poor men

:rofl:

[Skittles]

33. they don't have enough CLOTHING STORES AT THE MALL!!!

call AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL!!!! :rofl:

[havocmom]

107. Day-UM, Skittles!

:spray:

Shit, girl, I was just lamenting that I hadn't seen any posts from you in a while. Was worried about ya!

Glad to see you are in fine Skittles form! :rofl:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

22. Find me a city where more men go shopping for themselves

than women go shopping for them.

[Skittles]

32. lol

you read that and are whining about clothes stores?

[NuttyFluffers]

80. give me red tag sales or give me death!

i couldn't help myself!
:evilgrin:

[Hippo_Tron]

82. LOL, unfortunately that's just because men don't like clothes as much

Personally I love to shop for clothes. I'm not sure what I'd do with myself if I had as many choices as women did.

[frogcycle]

86. this would be perhaps the most ridiculous thing I have seen posted in months

contrasting commercial decisions as to whow to market to with repressing basic human rights and brutality?

good grief!

[DemBones DemBones]

95. Men need fewer clothing stores because men's clothes are made in standard sizes.

Men know they can find shirts in their neck size and sleeve length and they'll fit; trousers and jeans in their waist size and inseam length will fit. All they have to decide on is colors. They're also not faced with rack after rack of sequin-trimmed low-cut suits when they're looking for a suit to wear to work.

It's a different world for women. Every woman has clothes in several sizes that all fit. Obviously women's sizes are inconsistent. One thing you can usually count on is that you will wear a smaller size in a more expensive store. In other words, they label their clothes differently so rich women can think they wear a smaller size than they really do!

Most women's jeans and slacks are made for women about 6'2", I think. I'm 5'4", which last time I heard was the average height of the American woman, yet I've always, always had to cut off four to eight inches of fabric at the bottom of jeans or slacks before hemming them.

Oh, sure, department stores will do alterations sometimes but they charge to alter women's clothes, even expensive slacks and skirts that are part of a suit. Men buy a suit and it's altered to fit them (unless they have suits custom made, which is a different world altogether.) Most women's stores don't do alterations, and finding a good dressmaker is next to impossible unless, I assume, you live in a big city.

Besides the fit problem, there is the style problem. Women's designers design for thin women under 25, which is great as long as you are both thin and under 25. They also seem to think all we do is go to cocktail parties or the beach. Finding ordinary clothes to wear to work, meetings, church is difficult.

Be glad you can find clothes in the men's stores and realize that women may go through every store in the mall without finding anything that they like at all and that fits them well.

[Arugula Latte]

125. I think the not-as-,many men's stores is a symptom of women's lesser role in the U.S.

We are expected to be the sex that is obsessed with appearance. We can't have some basic clothes in standardized sizes like men. Ohhhh Nooooo. Instead, we are supposed to obsess over hemlines, wide-vs-narrow leg pants/capris/clamdiggers/cropped pants, etc., accessories, jewelery, hair, make-up, etc. etc. etc. We are expected to spend a much, much higher percentage of our incomes on stuff to make us look "pretty" (the definition of which is bound to change next week, so we need to head back to the mall to keep up with it all ...)

[Hepburn]

10. Get thee to the greatest page!

K&R....and I know of NO country where men are 2nd class citizens.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PassingFair]

17. That's why weapons are so cool, don't you think?

They "equalize" men to men and women to men.

[goodgd_yall]

29. The missing link:

Testosterone. Even where there is "equal playing field" with weaponry, men still have power over because of a greater readiness to use weapons (guns). Just a theory.

[frogcycle]

43. nahhhh ...see #19 n/t

[salinen]

18. Wow

there's some wisdom there.

[Phrogman]

30. My Dad told me the reason so many women get their asses kicked....

is because they cant see when its time to shut their mouth.

Dad used to tell me these pearls of wisdom on his weekend visits.

[undergroundpanther]

40. Glad I wasen't his kid,

His mouth would have been shut permanently once I got old enough to break his jaw.

[frogcycle]

41. I hope you're one apple that rolled away from the tree n/t

[Phrogman]

49. Oh yea, I got to see the results of doing it the wrong way...

I've been happily married for many years.

[undergroundpanther]

58. Good going

Glad you didn't become an asshole like your father.

[Phrogman]

62. No need for names, the mans been dead for years.

He was a disturbed and disabled Guadalcanal vet.

It's just the way he saw the world.

[undergroundpanther]

76. I don't like the way he saw the world

And how you see the world says alot about the kind of character you have or had.

I don't think death exempts a person from accountability for their character

My father was a putrid piece of murderous rapist shit and I am glad hes dead and I hope he is being tormented forever.
I hate him even though he's been dead since 1982.
He is responsible for alot of the trauma I am trying to recover from. Just because he's dead does not mean I forget and pretend he wasn't the wretched pus bag he was.
But than again that's me.I hate all bullies even ones that were my parent..

[Katherine Brengle]

118. Ugh...

I'm sorry you had to listen to that kind of shit - I hope it never seeped into your thinking.

[Skittles]

34. I bet I could kick your ass

Skittles
(native of Champaign County)

[Toasterlad]

45. Fight!

:popcorn:

[undergroundpanther]

44. Then why when I bring up the idea

of inventing an anti rape device that could be worn inside a vagina or a butt,and it would either clamp the penis with needles and mark it with ink or cut the penis of the offender and mark his dick with ink so when he goes to the ER he has been identified as a rapist, get really spooked by that idea?

What the idea of being hurt for raping someone that scary> maybe a device like that would be a good Idea I think in Darfur it would be a godsend.

[lostinacause]

100. I don't understand the focus on revenge "justice" that most Americans seem to

have. It doesn't work. It just makes the victims of crimes satisfied. Having someone else feel pain does not lessen the pain that you feel. Effort would be better spent actually looking to address the root cause of the problem.

[Joe Chi Minh]

124. There would be a deterrent effect, you can be sure. There's no reason why a dual

approach would not be appropriate.

Charles Manson had a desperate life as a youngster. I don't think the way he has been treated under our penal system is reprehensible; any more than I think that draconian measures should be taken to minimise to the utmost the satanic abuses he had been subjected to in such institutions as he was held in, in his youth.

Nor would I lose sleep if his abusers were consigned the depths of Hell. Though I might if I thought they were not. 'Vengeance is mine', says the Lord, 'I will repay.'

Having said that, I'm sure it is helpful to us, defectible human beings, spiritually and psychologically, if we try not to dwell on the evil of even the most evil parents. That is not to say that any of us should fail to acknowledge wickedness and cruelty. As C S Lewis pointed out - I believe in his autobiography, Surprised by Joy - an incapacity for moral outrage is anything but Christian. Not that I'm making accusations here. I believe everyone here would be posting in the best faith.

[rosesaylavee]

126. Good idea...

both socially and economically. You invent it and I market it, ok?

[Jade Fox]

89. "Men without a doubt are the dominant sex".

That's the desperate battle cry of men who feel insecure.

[LostinVA]

129. Yup

[Katherine Brengle]

119. What a dumbshit comment.

[LostinVA]

128. Sickening -- 25 posts in two years and you come out with this misogynist shit?

Go back to your home board.

[frogcycle]

19. The real irony

is that it does not make any sense.

Biologically, the females of any species are the most critical to propagating the species. Whether its trees, or fish, or birds, or horses, or people, the females do the procreating. The males are just something females produce in sufficient quantities to transport their DNA to another female, so that it can be combined to produce offspring with a combination of characteristics. Bees have it right. They are all female, except when it is necessary to produce a new queen. The queen then lays eggs that become drone - aberrant creatures with the ability to take some of the queens dna and inject it into another queen. Then they die.

Some people think that a stallion with a whole herd of females is some kind of big shot. Not so. The females are only willing to accept sperm from a male that has gone through a rigorous screening process. They choose him by process of elimination, then all pass him around when they need to produce another foal. Poor sucker must be exhausted. And to top it off, they make him fight off predators!

Elephant herds are all female. Young bulls leave the herd when they reach adolescence - the females don't want them around. They go off and mope, tell dirty jokes, eventually go audition for studhood - its a tough battle, and eventually a few of them are considered acceptable and mate with a female. She says "thanks for the sperm; now scram!"

You think mountain goats LIKE bashing their heads together like that? The females are laughing their asses off at the fools. Finally they pick a winner, and like the horses, put him to work scouting and chasing odd mountain lions and such.

Speaking of lions - a pride of lions is a group of lionesses, their cubs, and one selected male. They do the hunting; he saves his energy for the only thing he's any good for.

So what the hell happened with humans?

Somewhere, way back in time, when the guys were out risking their necks hunting saber-toothed cats to kill and drag back to the cave where the women were actually running the tribe - deciding who got what parts of the cave, raising children, pretty much same setup as the elephants (well, mammoths back then) they developed language beyond the level of pointing and grunting. They got to the point where when they took a break from running after (or from) dinner, they could actually share ideas. One of them uttered the words that men have been repeating ever since: "well, this sucks!"

From that moment forward, the men started scheming to take over. They decided that they would form "civilization," and, all logic to the contrary, put themselves in charge. They said, "hell, we do the hard work chasing (or running from) dinner; we should get to make up the rules." And this is where the women's previous strategy of selecting mates who were big and strong and could run after (or from) dinner backfired. Once the SOB's started communicating and scheming, they came up with idiotic plots to attack neighboring clans, to require the women to mate even if they didn't happen to be in the mood to get pregnant, all sorts of unnatural stuff (that's another thing that backfired - they had learned to make mating really, really fun, and the guys were hooked). But being men, they thought that whatever they came up with had to be good, and because they were bigger and stronger, they bullied the women into letting them have their way. They refused to provide dinner, they pulled their hair, they beat the kids, whatever it took to get their way. And because they had developed language, they could egg each other on with remarks like "go get her, Og" and "right on, Gork."
Many years have passed, and, sadly, little has changed. The insurgent males, whose only real value to the human society is swinging (well, for some; for others, not so much) between their legs continue to dominate in this topsy-turvy world. If the women ever do regain their natural dominance, a lot of problems will be solved. Back there managing the tribal affairs at the cave mouth, they worked out such things as sharing, caring for the sick and needy, negotiating agreements with neighboring tribes. If they were in charge now, they'd fix a lot of stuff quickly. But those pesky males are running around beating their chests, screaming at each other, trying to show who can run after (or from) dinner fastest (and whose is swinging the most).

Come on, ladies, take charge! The inmates are running the asylum!

frogcycle
(ready for the stud farm)

[Occulus]

46. I think I'll just copy that to a text file

It's totally worthy of the miniscule hard drive space it'll require.

You don't mind? Oh, goody!

:D

[frogcycle]

47. sure, go for it

:)

[misanthrope]

50. Spoken like someone...

...who has never worked in an office dominated by females.

[frogcycle]

84. spoken like someone

who needs to go out foraging - there are places where the guys still grunt and point and run after (or from) dinner!

[lostinacause]

101. My understanding is that there is research that shows that mixed offices

generally perform better then offices dominated by one gender. I believe the same follows from having a diverse office in general.

[femrap]

130. I agree....I like an assortment

of hormones.

[undergroundpanther]

60. Frogcycle

This house is matriarchal. Totally. My roommate is a dear male and gay friend.He pays his rent does minimal lawn stuff because grass pollen and such makes my lungs freak out. As in need a shot to stop it,freak out. I do the bills and crap, and everything runs smooth here. We cook our own stuff sometimes we share food.He cleans his own stuff doesn't keep food in the bedroom(ants drive me nuts I hatem) Other than that,I have no issues with him being here.
I am teaching him how to cook on a grill. He's getting the hang of it. He seems to be receptive to learning things in a matriarchal way. Any guy that wants to live here has to do their part in maintaining this place and taking care of themselves and obey the minimal rules I have here(sanitary stuff). I ain't nobody's momma. They have to realize I am their equal. if they act as if I am not,Asshole,meet my fist, now meet my floor, now meet the porch, bye!

[frogcycle]

83. Well, good

Sounds like you got yourself an excellent drone!

But I am trying to get your point. Are you disagreeing with me, or agreeing?

Lest it be misconstrued, the levity in my post did not mean I don't mean what I said.

[supernova]

93. Wish I could recommend this post ^^

Frogcycle, if I had a stud farm, I'd definitely want you. :D

[lostinacause]

98. Unless your words are not an accurate description of your true beliefs I don't see

how your beliefs are any different then the people you have so much contempt for. Are you not advocating the same thing, that there are natural roles to certain positions, saying that the positions that are the most "important" should be the ones of your gender. I fail to understand how a rational person can justify a stance that advocates the very thing that you are condemning.

Your last line is particularly amusing. Have you worked with or for the emerging high powered corporate female? They are at least as bad, if not worse, then the high power corporate male. To the extent that they are worse it is a result of being told they have to be strong if they are to succeed. My guess is that the differences will likely level off as my generation starts to fill executive positions. However, to think females are less susceptible to “male behavior” is in my opinion ignorant. It is power and the sacrifices that have to be made to obtain power that corrupt people and lead to bad choices. We will see the same thing from female politicians as we do from males as they start to get elected in proportional numbers. If you want to have effective and responsible governance the secret is to develop institutions that promote people of the right caliber and to elect such people into office.

[frogcycle]

106. well, where to start...

• OK, first, your assumption that I am female.
  Let me check... Wrong! And a good thing, too. Were I female, I'd be spending all my time naked in front of a mirror.
  
• That I have contempt for a particular gender. Hardly; there are assholes with penises and assholes with vaginas.
  
• That I am "advocating" something:
  Not really, just observing contradictions in human gender-bias vs almost every other species. And trying to have a little fun in the process, maybe defuse the name-calling and hate-mongering attitudes that permeate every frigging question, stimulate a little constructive thought. Oh, well, it works with some people, is hopeless with others.
  
• That I have not worked for corporate high-powered females:
  Wrong. I have quit two jobs because of inability to stomach extreme cases of what you describe.
  And they were what many would consider high-level, high-pay jobs. I have endured three periods when I worked for such, but managed to last until reassigned (once to another female who was actually good).
  What you describe, though is women trying to play by the rules established by the males, which makes for even more bizarre behavior.
  

[Katherine Brengle]

117. Interesting.

I'd like to believe that men are capable of overcoming their programming and acting in a civilized manner, and I'm far from reaching the conclusion that ALL power should just be handed over to women (it is, after all, a struggle for gender equality rather than control), but your examples of how animals function in nature is intriguing.

[frogcycle]

122. well, yeah, I was being extreme for fun

Some sort of peaceful coexistence should be possible! That does, however, require a good-faith effort from both "sides," and, historically, one "side" has been by far the greater offender.

The all-too-prevalent attitude that somehow the males are the 'natural' dominant sex is what bugs me. There is nothing in 'nature' to support that. It is only once humans started imposing their supposed 'intelligence' on the natural world that the various so-called 'traditional roles' were established.

To take my theory (if you can call it that) a little further, perhaps this unnatural positioning contributes to some of the worst behavior in some males. Not being "born leaders," genetically but living in a society where males are expected (by many) to be dominant, the ones who are the least secure in that role are the ones who feel compelled to assert themselves through various obnoxious behaviors and rules. Not unlike the description above of some female executives overcompensating in the male-dominated world. Gets pretty convoluted, I suppose.

So the upshot is that if all those screwed-up males with domineering mothers (an obvious example comes to mind) could just ACCEPT that they are not INTENDED to be "THE DECIDER," but, rather, are intended to wander the fields clearing brush in vain hope of someday being the only male available to some desperate horny female, only to die of old age, taking their defective genes with them, the world would be a far, far better place.

[BoneDaddy]

20. What is the point?

You have pointed out a fact. What you tend to do with that fact and the assumptions made upon that fact are up to you. Some have pointed out that it is flame bait and I think to a degree it is true because I, after reading it, was left with "what is your point"? We still live in a barbaric world. Life is not fair. But if you were throwing that out there to start a gender battle, then I have a problem with it as it is non-constructive and keeps people apart instead of working on a better future.

[noamnety]

25. Look at his profile.

He's not "starting a gender battle."

He's speaking in solidarity with most of the world.

[frogcycle]

28. I, on the other hand was most assuredly starting a gender battle

but nobody cares. The women just say "of course" and move on, and the men don't want to read something that long.
ah well, back to the stud farm

[DemBones DemBones]

97. . . .

"The women just say "of course" and move on, and the men don't want to read something that long."

Damn, it's always like that, isn't it?

[mudesi]

39. It's about acknowledging reality and changing perceptions....

...the notion that women shouldn't vent about sexism every once in a while being one of them. There are far too many men who are dismissive of it.

These men may believe in equal rights, but they are still passively sexist by not acknowledging the fact that women are still treated like animals in many parts of the world. They usually use epithets like "man hater" if a woman dares to express anger at such reality, or they insist on being "fair and balanced" (like Fox News) by pointing out the tiny fraction of injustices men face at the hands of women, as if that is at all relevant.

[undergroundpanther]

77. You can't just get along

With a rapist or an abuser or a psychopath or authoritarian personality. They will not get along. They don't see anything wrong with themselves or what they do,and they won't change.The first step to changing is acknowledging you need a change right well they think they are perfect,Throwing them pity and understanding gets you hurt more.
Some people because they can't feel guilt,shame or love,need to be spoken to in the language of domination because they don't understand hurting others is wrong by talking to them or your 'understanding. They have no inner boundaries because they are shameless.So they will roll right over yours and care less what gets hurt..They are NOT like most people.

[and-justice-for-all]

21. Paradise Island...

Thats where Wonder Women is from.

[bonito]

23. Only in a song

Down Under

Traveling in a fried-out combie
On a hippie trail, head full of zombie
I met a strange lady, she made me nervous
She took me in and gave me breakfast
And she said,

"Do you come from a land down under?
Where women glow and men plunder?
Can't you hear, can't you hear the thunder?
You better run, you better take cover."

Buying bread from a man in Brussels
He was six foot four and full of muscles
I said, "Do you speak-a my language?"
He just smiled and gave me a vegemite sandwich
And he said,

"I come from a land down under
Where beer does flow and men chunder
Can't you hear, can't you hear the thunder?
You better run, you better take cover."

Lying in a den in Bombay
With a slack jaw, and not much to say
I said to the man, "Are you trying to tempt me
Because I come from the land of plenty?"
And he said,

"Oh! Do you come from a land down under? (oh yeah yeah)
Where women glow and men plunder?
Can't you hear, can't you hear the thunder?
You better run, you better take cover."

[Sancho]

24. Sarmatia

Home of the Amazons.


:shrug:

[Bluerthanblue]

27. well, there are

the Cat-women of the Moon, but they aren't really earthlings.

:shrug:


:hi:

[undergroundpanther]

35. If this gets locked

I will simply repost it.

Good questions!

Tibet may have polyandry but is there any country where women are traeated as EQUALS to men in EVERY way.

No. If there is I wanna move there.

[frogcycle]

37. if it gets locked I will start a thread with my response up above

and see how long THAT lasts :)

[Toasterlad]

36. It's Called Themyscira

Men aren't even ALLOWED there.

[DarkTirade]

52. Yes, but can you find it on a map? :)

[Toasterlad]

56. Great Hera! Now You're Asking Too Much.

[Exultant Democracy]

42. and? Show me a country run by poor people? Or teachers?

and children, the children always get the worst of it. Even here children still die every year because their families choose to believe in some twisted sky god instead of modern medicine.

So what was your point is all I'm asking?

[ThomCat]

55. The universality of sexism.

No offense, but I thought that was obvious.

[Exultant Democracy]

63. If you read my post clearly you know I knew that. But what is the point?

as I pointed out there are plenty of other groups that get the short end of the stick.

The post reminds me of a bunch of peasants fighting over who should get more mud.

When will people understand that THERE ARE REAL BAD GUYS! Yep you heard it hear there are real ones, and they keep us poor and they keep us ignorant and they keep us divided.

Look at it this way women of the world, you have more in common with me then you do with Barbra Bush.

Remember the old saying "Whats good for women, is good for minorities and children." Well guess what it is bigger then that, what is good for people is good for people.

So if I am wrong about the OP then I am sorry, but arguing over mud is pointless.

[ThomCat]

65. Spoken like a guy who doesn't think he's affected by sexism.

You don't get to prioritize the evils of the world and tell everyone that they should only work on the ones that are on top of your list. There are a lot of us. Collectively we can tackle a lot of differnent issues simultaneously.

And besides, if we get rid of the republicans, but take your advice and don't tackle sexism, then men will get the vast majority of the benefits. Don't delude yourself into thinking that the Democratic party stands up for women without a whole hell of a lot of prodding.

[Exultant Democracy]

66. Wow, you thought I was talking about the republicans? I thought I was pretty clear

How long do we have to sand out here fighting over the mud before you get the ideal? THERE ARE REAL BAD GUYS! WE ALL HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM! You complaining about one of the many social problems that they have been using forever to keep us in our place is like whining about the food at a prison camp.

Maybe if you got off your high horse you could see the shell game?

edit to add: Don't you know the difference between a symptom and a disease?

[ThomCat]

67. From your reference to Barbara Bush, it seemed like that was

your reference. I have no idea what you mean by whining about food in a prison camp. What is this one, larger struggle you're referring to?

What is it, exactly, you think we should be doing instead of fighting sexism?

It still sounds like you're belittling the right against sexism because you think something else is more important. Maybe it's more important to you, but I think fighting sexism is the lynch-pin of all civil rights.

[Exultant Democracy]

68. Have you ever seen a forest, or do all those pesky trees always get in the way?

BTW civil rights isn't divisible into subsets, but a lot of people can't see that either.

[ThomCat]

69. Can you make a coherent point

or do you only speak cliches with no substance behind them?

Are you saying that we shouldn't work on any struggle unless we somehow work on all of them? If so, how?

Are you saying that fighting sexism is part of some larger struggle? If so, then what is it? And how do you propose doing something about it?

or do you just like to complain without saying anything even remotely intelligent?

[Exultant Democracy]

70. I'm just saying what it the point of the original post and I have never been answered

is it a victim competition? Because children and homosexuals have had it a whole lot worse then women have. You asked me what this greater struggle was as if you haven't noticed that most everyone is getting their ass kicked.

Whatever... Enjoy the three card monte. I'm sure you'll get the red queen someday.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[U4ikLefty]

78. The state of children is closely linked to the state of women.

...and BTW, homophobia is also a form of sexism...just in case you didn't know.

[Exultant Democracy]

81. Duh...thats what I'm saying. It's like people here post on autopilot.

[bettyellen]

90. i see, women shuld shut up because SOME men and kids also have it hard...

right, we should take a back seat to everyne else. not as orginal or as uncommon here as you wuld thnk.
a variation of this gets posted on every hread about feminisism.
do you think we don't know how the wrld is foor SOME men and kids? do you really think this is an excuse to ignore our concerns?
to derail the conversation?

[undergroundpanther]

111. Shame

turns some men into total assholes. No privileged class likes to look down on who's back he stands on to tell himself he is better. Just like no fortunate person likes to consider they just got lucky they rather say they fought for what they got and paint themselves as more virtuous than everyone less fortunate,. Every assertion of power rooted in fear or fear of weakness is fake and we both know that the dominant group is too scared to admit it is all a mind fuck so he can hide from reality.That he will die,be around icky things, get sick,have no one there to help, lose control and get shamed..

[DemBones DemBones]

99. "children and homosexuals have had it a whole lot worse than women have"???

Why are you trying to start a "victim competition"???

More than half the human race are women and many members of the other half, men, spend a lot of their time "keeping women in their place" in one way or another.

That's a serious problem. There are other serious problems but we are talking about bias against women in this thread.

[bettyellen]

88. i have idea what book or movie you are referencing either.

but the mud stuff seems facile and insulting.

[lostinacause]

103. I agree.

[Raksha]

114. I just want to commend you on a great analogy:

You complaining about one of the many social problems that they have been using forever to keep us in our place is like whining about the food at a prison camp.

That's something we need to keep in mind at all times. There are many strategies of domination, and they ALL have the same purpose of keeping "the masses" in their place.

And YES, male dominance and misogyny are universal. The so-called "battle of the sexes" is THE primary divide-and-conquer strategy. The fact that OTHER divide-and-conquer also exist doesn't change that. I didn't realize there was any debate or disagreement possible on that score until I started reading this thread.

[undergroundpanther]

48. Devices to defend a woman

From rapists,What do men think of this?

I like this one..
A controversial device, which its inventor claims clamps itself to a rapist's penis forcing him to seek medical treatment and be revealed to the police, will be launched by a South African woman on Wednesday.

The "Rapex" device is inserted into the vagina by a woman who feels she is at risk of rape, and if she is attacked, small burr-like teeth will attach themselves to the tip of the rapist's erect penis, explained inventor Sonette Ehlers.


As he withdraws and becomes flaccid, it is only possible to remove the device by surgery, Ehlers said ahead of a launch and demonstration at Kleinmond near Cape Town.


'It will make the men think twice'
The surgeons would in turn alert the police on the same principle that bullet wounds need to be reported by doctors, and the rapist would be apprehended.

"It will make the men think twice," she told Sapa of the invention that grew from "filing away" passing comments over the years.

A client she was consulting when she was a blood cross-matcher for a transfusion service, remarked one day "if only I had teeth down there", she related.


http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=15&art_id=qw1125413643318B261
These should be sent right to Darfur and given to every woman.


Another option..
An anti-rape device having a hollow housing adapted to be worn within a human vagina. The housing has a front opening and contains a hypodermic syringe having a volume of rape-deterring fluid and a needle facing and aligned with the front opening. Actuator means in the housing are provided which include housing means such as a spring to force the needle through the front opening and inject the fluid, cocking means to cock the device into a position which totally shields the needle within the housing, and prevents action of the spring, and trigger means which automatically releases the cocking means, upon forceful penis penetration of a vagina containing the device, to permit the spring to protrude the needle and inject the fluid into the penis. Preferably, the fluid is a quick-acting, safe narcotic such as scopolamine, or the like to render the rapist unconscious.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4237876.html
It certainly would deter rape.Like I said if it costs the rapist personally too much to rape(in pain or prosecution or whatever) maybe he won't try it.

With women armed like this Men would have to learn how to to WAIT until the woman consented to sex with him.If women had anti rape devices things would change very fast I think,,.All of a sudden women would cease to be things to take,but people you ask and you have prove you are trustworthy enough to have sex with.What a concept!

"But if there was no consent, in common law, the victim may use the same amount of force as the attacker, based on a reasonableness test."

A vagina dentata will not be penetrated without consent first.

[rockymountaindem]

53. I hate to be crude, and without commenting on whether or not I think this is a good idea

but couldn't a potential rapist, supposedly being in control of the situation as it were... how can I put this delicately... figure out if the woman is using one of these things *without* using his penis first? My point is that the more would-be rapists become aware such devices are in use, the more they will attempt to ascertain whether an anti-rape device is in use and thus thwart its effectiveness.

[undergroundpanther]

57. A rapist isn't going to do foreplay .

He wants to do it fast ,and not be caught.
If he gets it stuck on a finger,well he ain't gonna get that thing off of his finger without a trip to the ER. Either way Busted.

I think it's a great idea. Hits them where it hurts.
Think of it as a kind of Aversive therapy.

[rockymountaindem]

59. I guess I'll just have to say what was on my mind, then

Couldn't he use a blunt instrument or something that would attract the teeth of the anti-rape device?

[undergroundpanther]

61. It has microscopic hooks

Most blunt things won't adhere to that kind of hook.Wood is too smooth metal too,I think itwould be rather difficult to run around ,find a blunt object of just the right size, shape and texture of skin to make the device stick to it while trying to get away with the brutal rape of a resistant victim all at the same time.
Skin seems to be the texture it's designed to stick to.
And even if the attacker finds an object to pull it out with if he flees and forgets to grab the object the woman has the evidence and again he's busted.And while he's bent over picking it up the woman can cold cock him.

I mean look at this sick sad sexist myth about the great mother and how a man became a hero..through rape.

The vagina dentata appears in the myths of several cultures, most notably in several North American Indian tribes. Erich Neumann relays one such myth in which “A meat-eating fish inhabits the vagina of the Terrible Mother; the hero is the man who overcomes the Terrible Mother, breaks the teeth out of her vagina, and so makes her into a woman.” <1>

And what does that tell you about rapists seeking to break a woman's defenses and force it and the power trip rape is about. It shows the motive that motivates it all. To dominate. But if the woman has teeth down there most men are scared to go there,so the few that become"heroes SUFFER for thier crime even though his cohorts call that heroism.

Women need thier teeth and claws like lionesses.
Than things will be more equal.

[rockymountaindem]

64. I guess that answers my question

I guess we'll have to see if it is as effective as it's proponents claim.

[undergroundpanther]

73. an art exibit..impenetratable devices

Thisguy is a metal sculptor. He is really skilled and creative. He interveiwed some rape survivors and he created artistic AND fuctionable impenetratable devices ,they can be worn and they work... The devices are based on what he felt when he listened to the feelings of surrvivors rage and need for justice and his creative vision.It's a cool exibit
I like the saber tooth tiger one best .Go figure.
http://www.geocities.com/magicmetal2001/JudishInstallation.html

[helderheid]

87. I think it's a great idea. n/t

[Madspirit]

51. k&r...n/t

[TheWraith]

71. There are many countries where men are second class citizens.

Or to be more specific, where almost all men are second class citizens. When people talk about human rights in places like Saudi Arabia, they talk about things like the women's clothing requirements. But it's often forgotten that men in Saudi Arabia aren't allowed to drink alcohol, shave, speak freely, dress the way they want, demonstrate, join a union, criticize the government, or publicly practice any religion but Islam. Personally, I'd call that second class citizenship. I fail to see the relevance of whether it's men or women that hold the handful of power positions in such a repressive structure. Not to say that there isn't oppression of women, but pointing out a little context. Someone reading your message might be left with the impression that women are always oppressed, and men are always oppressors. You'll find that the worst countries for women are usually the worst for men, too.

Also, notes on a couple of your (rhetorical) questions:

"What about a country where women are allowed to take multiple husbands, but not the other way around?"

I don't know about forbidding polygyny (one male, multiple females), but polyandry (one female, multiple males) is widely practiced in Tibet, and less so in India, Nepal, and Sri Lanka. It's theorized by anthropologists that this came about as a result of social pressures to lower the birth rate, to protect against famine. In most places where polygyny was adopted, it was for the opposite reason, to maximize the birth rate in an environment where males had a much higher premature mortality rate than females due to hunting, wars, manual labor, etcetera.

"I'm looking for the nation that must exist on this planet in all probability in which boys are forced to have surgical procedures that takes away any sexual pleasure from them lest they fall to Satan's evil temptation. Can someone just point on the map and show me that country?"

The US practiced some of that, not too many years ago. You should read some of the horror stories about the use of circumcision to prevent masturbation, even as late as the 60s and 70s. For that matter, even modern "healthy" circumcision is known to remove or damage some of the most sensitive areas on the male genitals.

"Any country where the number of men raped is greater than the number of women raped?"

Right here in America, thanks to our prison system.

"Any country where men are beheaded, stoned, or tortured for adultery?"

Of course. This applies in any country governed by Sharia law. (Though technically, the specified penalty for adultery in the Qur'an is 100 lashes, not death, but you know religious types.)

[shance]

75. You have no answers. Because there arent any.

If there are, by all means, bring them on.

[undergroundpanther]

79. There are countries

Where a womans clitoris is cut out.Routine procedure.

Now before you start about circumcision,circumcision is barbaric but it does not totally disable the ability for a guy to feel sexual sensation.

The removal of the clitoris is a bit more drastic than circumcision .

The equivalent is like completely castrating a male's penis and taking out the prostate and all the pleasure sensing nerves .. so all sexual sensation is dead.

Where in this world are men routinely and regularly subjected to the total destruction of all sexual sensation as if it's normal? And where is the deadening of sexual sensation done because men having sexual sensation leads them into evil because they are evil and cursed by a'god'..

[gollygee]

94. The equvialent of male circumcision

in women is removal of the clitoral hood - and that is awful and as I understand it that is practiced too in some places. But you are right that it certainly isn't as severe as completely taking away the clitoris.

[gollygee]

91. You think more men than women are raped in the US?

I've read that something like a third of women in the US are victims of sexual assault at some point during their lifetimes. What percentage of men even go to prison?

[DemBones DemBones]

102. Yeah, I want to see some statistics to back up that claim because

I think it's bogus.

And don't cite Wikipedia, either. Any "source" that allows anyone to put shit on the site is badly flawed.

[undergroundpanther]

109. statistics..

• 12.1 million American women have been victims of forcible rape. In other words, 13% or one out of eight adult American women has been the victim of forcible rape in her lifetime. (1992)


• Data from an urban, hospital-based rape crisis center revealed that, of male and female adult victims of completed, forcible rape, men were more likely to have been raped by more than one assailant and by a Caucasian, but were less likely to have been physically harmed. (Frazier, 1993).

• Sexual assault is reported by 33-46% of women who are being physically assaulted by their husbands. (Frieze, Browne, Violence in Marriage, in Ohlin, Tonry, eds. Family Violence: Crime and Justice, a Review of Research, 1989).
http://www.nycagainstrape.org/research_factsheet_6.html

* 38% of women who have been raped were 14-17 years old at the time of the attack


* 75% of acquaintance rapes involve alcohol
* 3.3 million Americans aged 14-17 are considered problem drinkers



http://www.psu.edu/ouic/orientation100/T10/sexassult.html
http://www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm

[bettyellen]

92. And you ignore that women are treated as two classes lower the these repressed men

thnk yu know we were loking for at minimum- an even playing fied.
when you find a country that has one. let us know. otherwse you are off point.

[undergroundpanther]

110. You and I both know there aren't any.

[shance]

74. I think especially white privileged males.

n/t

[Aviation Pro]

85. Iceland....

...although technically men and women treat each other as ying and yang, the way nature intended it.

[ElboRuum]

96. I suppose it makes sense in a way...

...that you'd be hard pressed to find one.

All of the major attitudes regarding woman as second class have their basis in religion. Most of the major religions, being nascent in the times of obligate patriarchies (women didn't get the right to vote until this century in this country, lest we forget), where women were either considered the property of her husband or her family depending on age and marital status, have institutionalized this classism.

Now throw into that the fact that statistically speaking, that most people do ascribe to one or another of these religions, and the fact that true ideas of male-female egalitarianism are traditions not more than the greater part of a century old and you'll understand that 100 years isn't enough time to undo thousands of years of inculcation of classism.

Just a question, though. These countries... do you really WANT to find one?

Isn't it bad enough to find a plethora of those where women are treated as second-class?

[undergroundpanther]

104. Actually the reason

Originate from fear of death and disgust symbolized
Smelly slimy things remind people of disgust objects like corpses and slugs on a unconscious level.So women being moist down there ,She gets equated with slime and death all the deeply shameful acts(like wetting ones pants in fear) And women got associated with that,so do gays because they are"womanlike".

Strong men who are domineering,hate being attracted to her smelly "fish" but they are attracted by force of biology,despite what they want to imagine,boys move past girls have cooties stuff..as they mature. Men resent being attracted to something that has an odor,a thing that is soft and moist, ready to take his potency away. So in himself he wants to remove this softness he makes himself 'hardbodied' seeks to be cool, all because SHE reminds him of the fear of losing his power(potency).Seducing him by her sensuous softness,he "contaminates" ..He tries not to love or care,Than if he doesn't get over himself and face this messy reality,no one can control,and death which comes to all.. It gets worse, he tries to destroy her and anything symbolizing her,in any way he can(unconsciously)

This is the way the dominant group thinks it can elevate itself above the animal the messy the slime we all came from(why I think creationists really hate evolution).The dominator's justify themselves with a mind trick of distancing themselves from the messier side of existence,which gets displaced on the now,disgusting out-group.

Funny how most strongly animal-like scented things remind the paranoid archetypal"hard man" of his own impotence powerlessness, sickness and his mortality in a world that's too dirty too much shit puke and sickness,blood, sticky slimy and filled with death.

Having B.O. reminds him he is an animal and subject to death like all the other animals.A women's scent below scares him even more.

Blacks and gays all get that lower status shit because blacks are black like the night .Reminds the dominant white of when the fearful dominant can't see the predators moving in the trees because they were leopards or alligators.. I think this is where the fear behind racism lies.After all I guess it is harder to see a black attacker in the dark moonlight than a glaring white pale attacker.Camouflage helps a predator like a leopard catch prey. All the fears of black violence by whites especially socially dominant ones or insecure ones.

So what does patriarchy really operate on Fear and disgust of death and contamination,. Our culture tries to make women dry out Look at the ads for"feminine hygiene all are designed around dryness and controlling odor. Look at fashion is says make her more powerless less sensual more man like by encouraging her to waste away,and they rape to destroy her, the reminder of reality how it is and not how he wants it to be.

Look at fat phobia What do you think underlies that to the hard wannabe superman that wants the world clean and pristine orderly and under his control? That unconscious fear is of death again,like a bloated corpse taking up HIS space,being too close to his animal humanity,So where are bloated bodies found? in water of course , the water is the ocean a goddess Something that he can't do without (water)yet "angry" water can swallow him and kill him.
Hence the"disgust" at a fat lady in a swimsuit they call her derogatory names if she DARE bare her flesh to the sun and shame her because of her bloated looks All so the young hard body males can feel safe from their own mortality and not identify with her.As in they could drown swimming today and wash ashore looking just like her.Soft and squishy,pale distorted and dead.

As babies in the womb there are no needs, after birth we may think we are omnipotent because when we have needs the parents move to meet them(if they are decent parents) If one day his majesty the baby is hungry and mom is not there fast enough he cries and cries and realizes he ain't omnipotent he is totally helpless.This juxtaposition of omnipotent control and soothing on demand VS realizing there is a world full of needy beings it hard to reconcile,so men try not to grow up and that is one way they retain their omnipotent feelings by having women cook clean and care for them even though men claim they are superior in strength,men just a few short years men ago didn't haul laundry and deal his with shit stained boxers .Men didn't cook the dead cows and touch raw dead meat, they didn't wash dishes so their precious hands never were dunked in warm water and food particles reminiscent of puke or sickness contamination. that was womens work.Women were the slime that men used to selfishly avoid the messy ugly smelly slimy sickness and death symbols of their own animalness and mortality.Patriarchy and all authority is rooted in a deep seated paranoia of death and contamination It has extended onto symbols and that disgust shame and icky factor is put upon a scapegoat rather than internalizes as part of life they distance themselves to be not like that, pure clean,machine like invulnerable and dump the blame on women.And seek to destroy anything like HER..

This all comes down to a crazy fear of our bodies and fear of our own mortality a fear of weakness, vulnerability and disgust ,shame ..infused with symbols and magical thinking thats all designed to limit the exposure of the dominant group to the the things they loathe, fear and deeply shame them.Their own humanity animality,mortality and decay
Religion Capitalizes on this stuff in the unconscious and exploits it.

[frogcycle]

133. but the religions are invented by men

so why do the men use religion as a means to further their prejudices?

see post #19

[treestar]

105. The U.S.

Where Christians are persecuted, and white people are oppressed, heterosexuals are endangered, and those whose native language is English are treated unfairly. :sarcasm:

[broadcaster]

112. This diary is stupid. n/t

[frogcycle]

113. welcome to DU!

:sarcasm:

[Kablooie]

115. What about Amazonia?

And I saw in a movie once that Mars is dominated by women who use men as slaves.

[sampsonblk]

116. ...so what's your point?

[Katherine Brengle]

120. Thank you.

[Cleita]

121. There are ethnic pockets within countries where women rule.

I read about a remote place in China where the women refuse to get married. They also own everything. A girl will take a lover by signaling him to come to her room that night. He can choose not to take the invitation. Children take their mother's surnames so paternity isn't an issue. A popular lover may get many invitations in the village. Oh, the men, who don't own property, live with their mothers, sisters or other blood relative.

I also read about places in remote villages in Mexico where the women run things. Since the Mexican government at that time (sixties) required men to to certain civil service jobs, the women appointed someone who appeared to be mayor or governor to the authorities, but in fact took orders from the real chief a woman. They also pass the day drinking and eating while the men do all the work. I don't know how true this is or if it was true, what the situation is today, but it is interesting. I also recently saw a documentary of a tribe in the Amazon where the women had multiple husbands.

I am writing a pulp fiction novel about Amazons and in my research was surprised to find out that some historical figures in the ancient world accepted these women to be fact including Julius Caesar. He was questioned about his approval of Cleopatra becoming Pharoah because she was a woman. He replied he saw no reason for her not to rule as the Amazons had ruled many lands for centuries effectively and efficiently. Apparently, they ruled fairly large countries at times. Perhaps they were really a matriarchal, war-like society who at times conquered and ruled other tribes in their territories that included patriarchally organized societies. Their high chieftains were most likely women.

[BornagainDUer]

123. Equality for women is the secret key to improving

the world. It is so fundamental to progressiveness. When women get more rights countries improve dramatically.

I just hope there is enough time for this process to work before we go extinct.

[sailor65]

127. A diversion for you.

I don't know about a country, but call your video store and see if they can get you a copy of "Planet Earth," a movie from 1974 starring John Saxon.

You sound like you'll get a kick out of it, but you might dislike the ending! :eyes:

[JacquesMolay]

131. Not since the Isle of Lesbos ...

... I'm thinking. n/t

[hiaasenrocks]

132. No real reason for it.

If the true power were to be used (hell, even recognized) you wouldn't have to ask that question.