How to deal with racist remarks.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

I'm at a bus stop, just chilling with my headphones on. Standing next to me is a scruffy older man, with a beard that is slightly grayed and tangled. His clothes are worn, and hung limply on his skinny frame. From my cursory glance, I wouldn't have been surprised if he announced himself as a homeless vet looking to make ends meet. And perhaps he was.

This guy has been waiting here for a while, and we start to talk about how unreliable the public transit system is. All of a sudden, he starts making racial remarks about the bus drivers. Me being the non-confrontational me, I just sit there and make a nonchalant sound. This isn't my battle. I'm a teenager, I figure that he'll run out of steam soon enough. He starts talking more (I usually listen more than I ever talk), and there it is again. The remarks. The words themselves don't bother me, but I don't really know how to receive this guy. I know I don't agree with him.

In any event, I continue just chilling there, muttering a 'yea' or 'I know it' as he rips into cops (who I generally do harbor a dislike for. Not them as individuals, but the entire premise of their profession). And there it is again. I would usually just find a way to remove myself from the situation, but I've been waiting on this bus for almost a half-hour. I now have my headphones on one ear, and start looking through my schoolwork, being generally disinterested. Noticing my relatively overt disapproval, he then raises his arms, as if in defeat, and utters the oh so cliche statement, "I'm not racist. I don't have anything against these black people, but these drugs and crimes ARE all these niggers fault."

I shrug my shoulder and shake my head some, not letting out a sound. From my commentary, it is probably clear that I am not the heroic protagonist of this story that I'm sure most of you would wish me to be. He walks part way across the street, but as I let out a sigh, he turns back around and comes back. Apparently he could see his hopefully-coming bus no better from the street than from the bus stop. At this point I have managed to get my headphones on, and a book out, but I can still hear my surroundings. He continues speaking every now and then with small talk that I lean my head back to, and smile politely.

And there it is. His bus (and I said a silent prayer to whatever gods there may be that it wasn't my bus). He walks over, but he is still talking to me. It is obvious to him that despite my not-so subtle gesture of putting my headphones on, I can still hear him, and still acknowledge whatever it is he says. As he goes to his bus, he bids me farewell and good luck. I do the same, barely bothering to raise my head. If only his bus driver, a heavyset African-American woman with too much lipstick on had heard what he said only moments ago. I turn my music up to a good volume and lie back, to ponder the phenomenon that is racism.


I dislike confrontation. I will engage in it sparingly, simply because it takes too much energy, interest, and self-involvement in a situation. My usual response to anything I disagree with is to acknowledge it, understand it, then ignore it. But the crux of the situation appears at the second step. How can one possibly understand racism, which by definition is irrational.

And so I come here. I want to know what the (usually) fine people of DU would do in such a situation. Let the pens fly.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

1. You recognized much in this situation. If it happens again, you may change your response.

He wanted either acknowledgment or a fight, whether verbal or otherwise.

You provided a gray area. Hence his aggravation.

Nuance comes painfully to many among us.

And, that is superb writing.

:toast: MKJ

[fudge stripe cookays]

2. Give him an earful....

about how I don't want to listen to his racist bullshit, then turn my back on him and ignore him.

And I seriously have a problem with anyone who wouldn't.

Too much energy, interest and self-involvement? I'm shaking my head in disbelief.

I was raised in a racist household, and have shut my own mother down on issues like this. She re-examined her attitudes, and has done a 180. If you let these people blather on without saying anything, you let them know it's OK. It's not.

[Toasterlad]

6. Love Your Name, FSC, But Disagree.

It is not my responsibility to enlighten strangers on the street, particularly old people. Them talking to you isn't going to change your mind one bit about racism, is it? What makes you think you talking to them is going to make a bit of difference in what THEY think? You COULD try and educate the world one racist bum at a time, but I submit that you will quickly despair of success.

I think the OP did exactly what he should have done in the situation. Telling the guy "I don't agree with you, and I'd rather not discuss it" was a possible ploy, but dangerous: that could just put him even more on the defensive, feeling compelled to explain himself.

People like that old guy are why I NEVER engage strangers in conversation if I can avoid it.

[fudge stripe cookays]

30. You don't even necessarily have to change their mind.

You just have to let them know that spewing their bile is not socially acceptable.

Sorry, I engage strangers all the time. I NEVER back down from a challenge. Unless I'm having a crappy day with my MS and feel physically vulnerable, I am never afraid to engage.

[Toasterlad]

36. I Don't Think That's Wrong

I admire your energy. Me, I could never get through a day arguing with all the nonsense I hear from strangers. If that works for you, I think it's great. But I also think it's okay to just ignore the SOBs until they go away.

[fudge stripe cookays]

38. But see, that's the problem.

The more you ignore them, the more they continue to rant. And then they breed more little ranters whom no one will ever challenge. You don't have to argue. That's not what it's about. All it takes is a simple, "Sorry, I find that language objectionable," then walk away.

Sorry. I find your & the OP's attitudes of laissez-faire about racist-speak to be really disturbing.

[EFerrari]

76. "Silence is consent." n/t

[fudge stripe cookays]

78. EXACTLY.

:hug:

[EFerrari]

84. You know, your user name makes me crave cookies

every time I read it.

:rofl:

[fudge stripe cookays]

90. And you're not the first to say that.

It's my chocolatey goodness people find so appealing! :D

[EFerrari]

96. Is there a support group somewhere?

LOL!

[fudge stripe cookays]

106. You might wanna talk to this guy.

It's all his fault. That's where mah name came from.

http://www.oddtodd.com/index2.html

:D

[Clark2008]

93. It makes me think of "Blue's Clues."

Particularly, the episode where Steve shares his fudge-striped cookie with Blue while pretending to be The King in a play and using Elvis' voice.

:7

http://www.tv.com/blues-clues/what-story-does-blue-want-to-play/episode/137321/summary.html

(Can you tell I have kids?)

[fudge stripe cookays]

104. I was gonna say...

I would NEVER know that particular item of popular culture. But thanks for sharing! :D

fsc <-- happily childfree

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

7. Call it what you wish. I may have no spine, who knows?

I try to avoid conflict at all costs, especially when the other person has 30 years on me and I have no idea who he is or where he comes from (is that fear? Perhaps it is. However, this sense of 'self-preservation', as it were, is what lets me have the wide range of friends that I do). This may have even been wrong or immoral. However it all comes back to the point that I have never had this experience before, and didn't know how to react to it. Which ultimately brings us back to the true topic of this thread, which appears to be in the process of spiraling into flames and fights. This topic being what you would have done in such a situation. Your opinion is clear.

[Warren Stupidity]

3. "smile politely"? Why?

Either call him out on his bullshit or ignore him. Crank the fucking headphones up so loud he gets the message.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

10. Habit I guess. That's just how I was raised.

I've always been taught to at the very least maintain an air of politeness, even if it's cold or undeserved. Having never before experienced such a situation, confusion and disbelief were the main emotions going through me. I was unaware of how to respond appropriately.

[misanthrope]

18. That 's partially why the South has had the problems it has...

...The lingering ghosts of the old ways, old beliefs and old institutions that have stymied life and progress in this region. It is considered rude to ruffle feathers by telling someone you object to their open racism and boorish behavior. One would think true faith in the dictates of politeness and decorum would necessitate quelling affrontery from bigots, but apparently not.

[Warren Stupidity]

62. And again I am not even suggesting that much.

Don't provide any affrimation. Don't nod and smile, ignore the idiot. Crank your headphones up. Zone him out.

[Clark2008]

95. The South doesn't have NEAR the problems you think it does

and for quite the opposite reason.

The South has very VERBALLY and OPENLY fought race "wars" while the North just sweeps it under the rug. The South has fought a real war over it and had Civil Rights movements over it. We're not quiet about it at all - which is why I think, by and large, racism is NOT as rampant here. Southerners aren't as quiet about either the racism nor the repelling of racism as Northerners are. I'm Southern and my Northern husband agrees with me.

Sorry, I think your opinion is very backward from reality here.

[misanthrope]

114. I guess my 43 years living in the South don't count then...

...or the things I've seen while working working catering gigs for the country club and yacht club sets, working in the segregated bars that still exist here or in the homes of our city leaders and wealthy corporate CEOs. I should negate what I've seen and heard in our segregated churches or in the various civic and cultural groups to whom I've spoken and forget the countless interactions with folks both black and white whose racial hyper-cognizance and open bigotry is infuriating.

Maybe you'd like me to take you to the little Southern towns where the schools are still racially segregated, where the new playgrounds and tennis and basketballs courts are known locally as "the white playgrounds" while the dilapidated facilities are for everyone else?

Oh, and by the way, there's a reason participants in the Civil Rights Movement came to be reviled as "outside agitators" throughout the South.

[Colobo]

11. I'm like TheFriendlyAnarchist- A non confrontational person.

I sadly react the same way in those instances, because I hate and fear confrontations.

[Warren Stupidity]

61. But the jerk is already in your face.

The confrontation is on and you had no part in starting it. I am not saying you should push the issue, I am asking 'why nod your head and smile politely' giving the jerk's hate speech credibility? Ignore him.

[Warpy]

4. It is tough when you're young and it's an older bigot

and the rest of us have been there, believe me. You just hope nobody you know walks by and hears that tirade and thinks you're agreeing with the old bigot. The problem comes in figuring out where manners can safely end and when respect for your elders is no longer necessary.

I'm an old bag, so I'd have cut him off at the knees. A simple, wimpy, "I don't agree with any of that," followed by a failure to elaborate, might have stopped the conversation. It could just as easily have enraged the old bigot. It's a judgment call and it's entirely up to you about whether or not it's safe. You could have found yourself ducking around the corner and waiting for the next late bus. Been there, too.

In any case, feigning agreement with a bigot is never polite. Nodding and saying uh-huh is simply not permissible. You can take a couple of steps back and focus on something across the street if you don't think it's safe to speak up, but do NOT agree with any racist shit. He launched into that crap looking for your approval and your duty as an enlightened human being is to withhold that agreement. He'd have run out of gas pretty quickly without it.

This situation will arise again, count on it.

[philosophie_en_rose]

5. You need to practice a "WTF" look.

A quick sneer to let the fucker know you didn't hatch out of the same toad egg. Then, roll your eyes and ignore him.

[freeplessinseattle]

52. exactly what I do with strangers, too, and the look

on their faces in return is priceless.

[idgiehkt]

8. I'd probably feign religiosity and say something like

'Jesus tells us to love one another'. Either they'll be ashamed or think 'oh shit, one of those fundie freaks is about to start testifying' and do their best to ignore you. But that's me.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

12. Heh, best answer so far.

Sounds like something I could do. I'll keep it in mind ;)

[piedmont]

19. I've done that with a couple of family members. It totally works.

and catches them completely by surprise since I don't ever offer any other evidence of religiousity.

[emlev]

47. "God is ashamed of you!"

is my version of that. It can have quite a stunning effect, almost literally.
Another version, from a song, "I'm gonna tell God how you treated me."

[Colobo]

9. It has happened to me, a 23 yr old black Puerto Rican

In many occassions. Sometimes it is with white American individuals of different ages and genders who start being nice to me (you know- "You don't dress/talk/act like most blacks, you know!"), and when they find out I'm Puerto Rican, they feel "safe" to let out their hatred against African-Americans, using me as the proof that they are not racists (You are a black guy too and I like you!).

Sometimes it's with white American (recently happened to me with an Irish friend of mine) individuals who talk to me about their dislike of Jews.

Sometimes it's with my fellow Hispanics, talking shit about African Americans, blacks in general (including black Latinos like me) , white Americans and other Hispanic groups.

For some reason, people think I'm cool with them telling me all that stuff when I'm not just because I remain silent.

[marmar]

13. That's why it's never good to remain silent....

because the other party takes it as tacit acceptance.

[Colobo]

14. True.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

22. Fair enough n/t

[rockymountaindem]

39. What do they say about Jews?

People have hardly ever said anything anti-Semitic to my face so I kind of wonder if the average anti-Semite still buys into the old canards about us or if they've come up with something new.

If you don't feel comfortable talking about it I understand, though. I'm just curious.

[Colobo]

80. Either that Jews are exaggerating when it comes to the Holocaust

or what my Irish "friend" said a couple of days ago, that they kind of deserved what they got under Hitler because of them "being so greedy while Germans starved", and that they are doing the same thing here in the US.

[rockymountaindem]

82. About par for the course

I guess I could tell them to read a book but maybe that would be asking too much. Oh well.

[goodgd_yall]

99. How about this one:

It can either be a new-ager or a christian, but it says Jews have suffered so much through history because of their Karma/unacceptance of Jesus. That kind of thinking really angers me.

[rockymountaindem]

107. What about the pre-Jesus suffering?

And Christians have been so good to each other over the past 2000 years it really makes that an appealing argument :sarcasm:

[Lex]

15. As I got older, I got more bold about telling someone I totally disagreed

with what they were saying.

As a teen-ager, I don't think I would've been so quick to do so.

A few months ago, I told someone who made a racist remark around me "That's just plain sick."

I age, I get more bold.

What's that poem about wearing purple?

[misanthrope]

16. Acquiescence is also a form of approbation...

...The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
-Edmund Burke

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

17. I thought of that very quote as I wrote this. Unfortunatly,

doing something is harder in practice than in theory.

[misanthrope]

21. Just say...

..."Excuse me, but I really find this offensive and I would appreciate it if you would drop the subject, please."

If he queries you as to why, don't discuss it further. Just be polite and short. From that point on it becomes his problem as to whether he wants to continue building an eventual harassment charge or not.

[Toasterlad]

25. That's a Little Extreme

Just because you do not confront a 70-year old racist at a bus stop does not mean you are condoning racism. The old man had a right to say whatever he wanted. He wasn't hurting anybody. And you WEREN'T going to change his mind. Who benefits from confronting him? The old man? His position remains unchanged, except he might be more inclined to argue now. You? The rush you got from exercising your moral superiority should last about all of ten seconds, when you realize you're engaged in a pointless argument with a 70-year old stranger.

Work on the attitudes of the people who know you and respect you. It is pointless, exhausting, and potentially dangerous to try and "convert" strangers to your beliefs, however noble.

[misanthrope]

31. What would you do if the man was using similar language...

...in front of a mother with small children, maybe even peppered with more profane and violent speech and she was obviously bothered by it but too scared to say anything? Should you just shut up and let him keep spouting that, as well?

No one mentioned getting into a debate with the guy, but merely asking him to cease the offensive remarks.

Freedom of speech the old dirtbag certainly has and it not only carries the right to say what you want but also the burden of facing repercussions.

Of course, it sounds to me like the first mistake was giving this lunatic the impression the storyteller cared about what the guy thought...

[Toasterlad]

35. Good Question.

I consider myself a pretty chivalrous fellow, so in that case, I would probably say, "Look, no one here agrees with you, and we'd appreciate if you'd not discuss it anymore. But, as I said, that could just provoke the old geezer into an even more defensive posture, resulting in more (and probably louder) justifications of his nonsense. Which is better for the child to hear?

In either case, you're right in that the old man's freedom of speech does not trump the bystander's freedom of speech. But it's been my experience that older people with deeply ingrained beliefs aren't inclined to shut up when someone politely asks them to. I just think it's pointless to get into an argument with someone you don't know, who you'll only be sharing space with for about 10 minutes, and whose opinion you have zero chance of changing.

[misanthrope]

40. I see your point of view...

...and understand it perfectly well but as I get closer to 50 myself, I just grow more and more exasperated with the decades of this garbage that I've heard. I don't expect to change anyone's views, especially not by making them defensive, I just want them to hold their thoughts to themselves while around strangers if they're not being asked their opinion. I don't consider that a lot to ask.

[freeplessinseattle]

53. "converting" isn't a realistic goal

but some people deserve a little lesson in manners.

Why is it ok for him to say offensive things to someone but not ok for that person to bring to his attention the inappropiateness?

[Toasterlad]

66. It's Totally OK to Call Him on His Bullshit

I just think that tends to prolong the argument, as he'll feel the need to "explain" himself.

All I'm saying is that I think ignoring the asshole is a valid choice.

[freeplessinseattle]

103. and that not ignoring is an invalid choice

so, the old man wasn't hurting anybody, he has the right to say what he wanted, isn't hurting anybody, etc. yet anyone who expresses their opinion back is making a less valid choice-acting morally superior, dangerously, and pointlessly; this is perfectly clear that is your point:


"The old man had a right to say whatever he wanted. He wasn't hurting anybody. And you WEREN'T going to change his mind. Who benefits from confronting him? The old man? His position remains unchanged, except he might be more inclined to argue now. You? The rush you got from exercising your moral superiority should last about all of ten seconds, when you realize you're engaged in a pointless argument with a 70-year old stranger.....
It is pointless, exhausting, and potentially dangerous to try and "convert" strangers to your beliefs, however noble."

[Toasterlad]

105. Please Don't Put Words In My Mouth.

I said it was perfectly acceptable to confront the man. I also said that I would choose NOT to, and would rather ignore him. If you choose to see that as a great big victory for racists everywhere, that's your prerogative.

I wasn't trying to say that either choice was "better". If you were offended by my use of "moral superiority" I'm sorry, but what other reason is there for confronting him except to make yourself feel better, however briefly?

[freeplessinseattle]

109. wow, are you one of those anti-Sheehan folks, too?

anytime anyone protests against ignorance and hate it stems from a need to feel a sense of moral superiority??

If this is not what you meant, then please explain why it only applies in cases of racism?

[Toasterlad]

110. Jesus Christ, Man, What Part of DO WHATEVER THE HELL YOU WANT

Don't you understand?

Are you just looking for a fight, or are you really that dim? Either confront the guy or ignore him, I don't give a shit. Just stop trying to pretend that I'm making a case for racism.

[flying rabbit]

20. K&R

There are no black and white answers. I don't know which road I would have taken-depends on my mood. Thanks for sharing.

[SeattleGirl]

23. I'll share what I have done in similar situations.

I have had some clients (usually older) who have made racists remarks or used racist terms. Now, because they are clients, I can't go all confrontational on them, but I also don't have to listen to something that I find highly offensive. Once, I had a guy in his 60's who was using just about every racially derogatory terms there is. I stopped him, and said to him politely, "I find that kind of language very offensive, and I would rather you did not use it in my presence." Someone up thread said that you won't necessarily be able to change someone's mind, and that is so true. But I felt I did have a right not be be subjected to something that was offensive to me, and I spoke up. This man never used those words or phrases in my presence again.

I do understand the non-confrontational thing; I was very much that way when I was young. I've pretty much gotten to the point where I CAN be confrontational if I find it necessary; however, it isn't always about getting into someone's face (though I HAVE been known to do that). As my example shows, sometimes it's just a matter of expressing myself in a calm way, and requesting that the person not speak in that manner when in my presence.

[quinnox]

24. there isn't one right answer

interesting thread by the way. It all comes down to the individual and personality. Some people would have reacted violently and told the guy to get out of their face, others just ignore him. I wouldn't have agreed with what he said and just turned away from him and showed I didn't want to carry on a conversation with him.

There are many situations like this in life. I have a supervisor at work who is a freeper type and he talks to me about politics but he doesn't have a clue I am on the exact opposite side of him. I don't want to have arguments with the guy, he is actually a nice guy, although I disagree with him politically, so I just selectively agree with him and don't offer up any debate. What I mean is I agree with certain ideas or points he make that don't conflict with my own politics, it is hard to explain but the point is I am not being dishonest with him or not being honorable to my own beliefs in the way I do it.

But this guy you encountered I couldn't even use that tactic because you have to draw a line somewhere so I would have simply removed myself from the conversation. I think by agreeing with him you were dishonest (to yourself) and well, a little cowardly. But it is only my opinion.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

32. My opinion is that I never agreed with him over any of his racist BS.

I however, did not call him out or verbally disagree with him as I maybe should have.

[Maru Kitteh]

26. I want first want to laud your well written account.

Secondly, I want to tell you that there was nothing immoral or deficient in your response so long as you did not agree to statements that were egregious or against your moral conscience.

It's good that you are seeking input from others on how to tweak that response or modify it, but the best response you can give will always be one that fits genuinely and comfortably within your own style.

Highest Regards, and the Best of Luck,
- Veganistan

[Jed Dilligan]

27. I would steer the conversation toward the people

he should be blaming for his problems. The government, the CIA (as far as drugs go), Enron, oil companies, the World Bank etc. You had an inroad with his remarks about the cops. A lot of times a guy like this is just traumatized by his own poverty and lashing out at the easiest victims. You might actually be able to turn him around pretty quickly with a little effort.

[Longhorn]

28. Like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTDhgR3p12w

You did fine! He obviously got the point with barely a peep from you. That's some body language you've got going for you! :hi:

[ThomCat]

29. You'll get conflicting answers, and they'll probably all be right.

Back before I became disabled I would have been more confrontational. I'd challenge the racism even if it might piss people off and escallate. I wasn't a fighter, by any stretch of the imagination, but I could run with the best of them.

Then I was given this nifty mobility imparement. I was still willing to be verbally confrontational, but only when I was sure it wouldn't escallate into a physical confrontation.

Now I'm pretty feeble, physically. A 5 year old could do some serious permanent damage to with with very little effort. My evaluation of when a situation is physically save has changed. If there's any chance that anyone might be physically argumentative then I usually keep my mouth shut.

If there are people there to keep things from getting out of hand then I'll still speak up.

Of course. I have the advantage of not caring whether or not I piss people off. That helps. My only concern is physical safety. A lot of people don't want to upset other people. And I respect that, even if I don't follow it.

I would have come right out with my typical "that's racist bullshit, and you look smart enough to know it."

[HCE SuiGeneris]

33. An involving presentation TFA.

I too lean towards a non-confrontational engagement. Best to sit and listen for tell-tale signs that may present an insight into the motivations/rationale of your speaker. If one can gain enough information, it is possible to approach the racism from a back-door and build on commonalities that can breach the chasm of the irrational thought process this person is experiencing. Provided of course, that you think this person is worth continuing the dialog.

My approach has been to frame the conversation to accent the behavior that supposedly ushers in the disparaging comment, and then point out incidences where that behavior is committed by peoples of varying ages, sex, race, etc. The point of the exercise is to ameliorate the view within which the supposed poor behavior of the subject is framed. Emphasizing the likenesses, sameness of the human reaction, and de-emphasizing the attribution to a specific genre.

Just my 2 cents...

[pepperbear]

34. I would have done a variation of the same thing....

"Yeah, nice. uh huh. Listen, I'm going to stand over HERE now. Nice talking to you."

[Raejeanowl]

37. You're a Smart Kid

But how is it possible to be both "friendly" and an anarchist?

In similar situations, I've said something early on in the verbal garbage dump like, "I really don't want to listen to this/talk about(insert: race, gender, religious, etc.) issues," and looked away in a manner clearly intending to ignore him. It doesn't always stop an idiot from being confrontational when you diss him, but you really don't owe strangers on the street your polite attention.

Good luck.

[Maru Kitteh]

41. how is it possible to be both "friendly" and an anarchist? Therin lies the

evolution of the species.

Unique thought.



One can be freindly, and yet fundamentally opposed to the status quo.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

42. agreed n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

65. If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

Emma Goldman (27 June 1869 – 14 May 1940), Lithuanian-born writer, feminist, anarchist, and atheist.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Emma_Goldman

[troubleinwinter]

43. I don't buy it.

You are too articulate to be so clueless.

"...it takes too much energy, interest". You bothered to spend energy to write plenty here.

WTF does how much lipstick was worn by the bus driver, or her physical build have to do with anything?

Here: Should you ever find yourself in such a situation, a simple response is, "Nonsense."

[HCE SuiGeneris]

45. Weird.

My first instinct was the same, yet I spent 15 minutes writing a reply. I best take a look at my motivations...

Very astute observations troubleinwinter.

[Mojorabbit]

46. I am always

thinking of things I could have said twenty minutes after an encounter that upset me. I am not so quick on my feet during it sometimes.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

54. It is, of course, up to you to decide whatever you would like to believe.

However, this does not change the fact that I had never experienced this situation ever before. I have mulled over what the correct response should have been for weeks. Why you may ask, when, as you point out, the answer is so glaringly obvious? Because I think there is more than one answer. Why did I include the detail about the bus-driver? To include detail. To me, she was a crucial part of the story, embodying the very hypocrisy behind the mans statement. It is irony at its finest. She was the very thing that he pronounced to hate and be against, yet there he stood, talking to her smiling and paying his fare.

Did you think that, perhaps to me, any energy spent on confrontation is too much? I am not opposed, morally or in practice, to writing. This does not hold true for conflict and confrontation. Perhaps I should have confronted him. That is the very question that brought me here. Your opinion is noted.

[troubleinwinter]

68. Your comments brought to mind the many young white & black students, old women, men

and children who did not shrink from confrontation while participating in and supporting the civil rights movement in the '60s.

And also the Children's Crusade:

The Children's Crusade is the name of a march in Birmingham, Alabama, in 1963 which was part of the American Civil Rights movement. Organized by Rev. James Bevel, the march was in protest of the arrest and jailing of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and was primarily composed of hundreds of students from the city on May 2 and again on May 3.

During the first day of marching, students and children as young as six years of age marched from Kelly Ingram Park to downtown Birmingham. As soon as one group was arrested, another left the park. By the day's end, the jails were packed, with 972 protesters having been arrested.

On the second day, commissioner Bull Connor, then in a legal battle to retain his city office, ordered fire hoses and dogs to be used against the protestors. The images shocked the nation as media coverage of children under violent attack by police raised public awareness of the situation in Birmingham.

On May 10, after U.S. Department of Justice intervention, Birmingham city officials surrendered and agreed to a timetable to desegregate downtown stores, establish a biracial city commission, and release jailed protesters on bond. In exchange, the protestors agreed to end their store boycotts and demonstrations.

You say that you "dislike confrontation". I doubt these demonstrators who were arrested, beaten with police batons and targeted with fire hoses and dogs found it likeable.

You hold confrontation not to be moral?

I wonder if you feel you have any answers to your question from this thread of response posts or if you still think confrontation of racism "takes too much energy, interest".

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

87. I hold violence not to be moral. I understand your passion, especially in your last point

"I wonder if you feel you have any answers to your question from this thread of response posts or if you still think confrontation of racism "takes too much energy, interest"."

From your perspective, I am most likely the very thing that you detest out the people in our party, and our world. I decided that I would make the selfish decision to not do anything, instead of venturing out to maybe cease injustices. I felt that it may have been a battle that I couldn't win, and figured that my life and his would be easier if I just politely ignored his prejudice. So, your point of staking this as 'immoral'. It probably was to many people here. Would I change my response next time? Perhaps. We won't know until such a situation arises again as it invariably will.

(I realize that I've substituted violence for confrontation. This was an incorrect assumption on my part. The idea behind that was that it could lead to violence, although it was unlikely in this particular situation and therefor a moot point. My apologies.)

[Karenina]

73. No confrontation necessary.

You probably noticed in the first seconds that the guy was a taco short of a combo plate. I had one of those today, first in YEARS. Bought a paper on the corner and a passerby, whose eye I caught while checking the stoplight, grumbled loudly, "NIGGER BITCH." It had as much impact as "Things go better with Coke!" No need to mix it up with strangers, we all have enough crazy friends and family to handle! ;-)

Remaining silent when a family member, friend or acquaintance is testing your tolerance is an entirely different matter with entirely different dynamics.

[troubleinwinter]

85. OP does not indicate that he thinks the stranger was mentally ill.

OP seems to have engaged the stranger in lengthy conversation relating to the "unreliability of the public transit system", and "he starts making racial remarks. The words themselves don't bother me".

Agreeing with the stranger "saying 'yea' or 'I know it' as he rips into cops... who I generally do harbor a dislike for...the entire premise of their profession".

OP "lies back, to ponder the phenomenon that is racism". His response "is to acknowledge it, understand it, then ignore it".

OP asks "How can one possibly understand racism"? Maybe one can begin to understand it because people acquiesce and ignore it, not being bothered by the words.

It is still beyond me what the size of the "heavyset" driver with "too much lipstick on" has to do with it.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

88. I'm sorry that you see it as such. For the entire conversation, I probably spoke less than twenty

words.

I have no real response for the next 2 points of your post, as there is no real question behind them (at least as far as I can understand).

Words don't bother me. They /generally/ harbor little meaning to me (I'll address an exception in a moment), which is why I don't speak much. You can call me every name and use every derogatory remark that you can think of, and that in and of itself won't bother me in the slightest. However, the intent and the emotion behind these words are what did bother me, and they are what I think about.

So before you can call me out on my relatively long sentences and seemingly superfluous language, emotion and intent is a difficult thing to infer from correspondance over the internet. As such, I use as much language as possible to attempt to convey the true meaning of my point, something that I don't believe can be completely done with words alone.

Why it continues and is allowed and why it IS are different points, although I understand what you are saying.

"It is still beyond me what the size of the "heavyset" driver with "too much lipstick on" has to do with it." Did you even bother to read my point above. While this may be an experience, every experience is a story. This person was an important part of the story as such, considering he made remarks regarding eating and race. Would you be just as offended if I had written, "A petite, young, African-American woman with her hair done prettily. . ." Because not only would that have been a fabrication, it also loses a portion of the significance and irony.

[struggle4progress]

44. When I was your age, I was VERY confrontational and would have had no trouble

telling the fellow I thought his racist remarks were disgusting.

Having become very slightly wiser and a wee bit more sophisticated with age, I have discovered that in many cases what works best for me is to try to respond in a way that is unexpected and doesn't fit nicely into the well-worn cultural ruts that such conversations usually follow.

This approach offers a wealth of options:

"I'm sorry. I really don't understand what you are saying." This offers the possibility of a long and completely inconclusive conversation in which I never put the other person down -- and yet, despite asking a (potentially large) number of vague and incongruous questions, I never seem to catch the drift

"You know, my family is originally from Africa" OK, it's true none of them lived there in the past several thousand years, and that for quite a long time they were all in Northern Europe, but with some careful footwork I prevent the conversation from divulging any details of my family's recent history

"I completely agree with you: our drug policy makes no sense at all. Why are we putting all these people into jail instead of rehab? It just doesn't make sense" The tactic here is to use the opportunity to push a progressive agenda, all the while acting as if my adversary were the original source of all of the philosophy coming out of my mouth

"Well, we all have our favorite concerns. Personally, I'm worried by the recent increase in UFO sighings." &c&c

[NuttyFluffers]

48. usually: raised eyes, face shocked, and reply "In my exp. people are just people, y'know?"

that usually shames them to not go further with such comments. if you can sell it enough sometimes they'll even smile, shake their head, and reminisce that they've met good people from XYZ group, and that they're just being unfair lumping everyone together.

people tend to remember the bad experiences than the good, and they tend to hone in on faults in a group they are looking for. so if they are looking for -- say, bad young women drivers -- they'll only see that, even though they've just been cut off several more times by other groups of people. but if you remind people of our general humanity and common struggles in life you often break that spell for a few moments.

[emlev]

49. Depends on what you're trying to accomplish

To get him to stop talking because you don't want to hear it?
To educate him?
To change his mind?
To do something that you'll feel good about?
To be an ally to people of color?
To practice for other situations where you may have a bigger investment in acting a particular way?
Or...?

Each of these might lead to different actions.

My guess is that in this situation (and in others you'll face) you likely wanted a combination of at least two of those things.

There's not one precise right thing to do.

I share the opinion I see expressed by many on this thread that it's important in some way to show your rejection of what he said. Whether you do that directly, indirectly, with humor, with body language, with kindness or rage or however, will of course depend on who you are and what the situation is.

[EFerrari]

50. I've boiled it down for myself to a question.

"I wonder why you'd say something like that?"

[emlev]

58. I like that.

[troubleinwinter]

70. I don't use any that have a question mark at the end.

It invites the spewing of more bullshit justification.

I say "Nonsense.". It means the same as "bullshit", but is a better phrase to use with an unknown stranger.

[EFerrari]

72. It's true that it's an invitation for people to respond.

And that requires having the time/patience/desire to deal with that. lol :hi:

[freeplessinseattle]

51. what if it's a racist family member or friend?

a stranger, sure, heck, I don't like talking to strangers about anything, but I just cannot take my mom's suggestion and stay silent while her boyfriend goes off about niggers, wetbacks, Jews, and women. It feels complicit, and maybe no one has told him how uncomfortable those remarks make people feel (tho I think he derives part of his joy from that, misery loves company).

[fudge stripe cookays]

57. Here's what I did.

I grew up around that. When I saw "Mississippi Burning", my entire life changed. I had not been allowed to watch Roots when I was young, was sent to Catholic school so I wouldn't be bused, and sure as hell didn't know much about the civil rights movement.

My mom grew up in Belleville, Illinois (next to East St. Louis), so everything was the N word for her. And after that night, I was horrified by it. I told her if she ever used that word again, I'd walk out of the room. She did, and I did.

At first she forgot. "Don't walk away from me!" she'd yell. I told her, "I told you I'd walk out of the room. Do NOT use that word around me." After awhile, it became sort of a Pavlovian thing. She'd get to that word in a sentence and painfully say "black person" instead, though it killed her to do it.

After awhile, she just got used to it. She no longer uses it. She had voted Republican her whole life, but she began to wake up to a lot with a little tutoring from yours truly. She is now a true blue Democrat. It takes work, but it can be done.

[freeplessinseattle]

102. thank you for your great input

and sharing, it seems that the tactics that involve physical removal from the person work best, I've been visiting my mom less and strategically avoiding her bf, and I think she is getting how uncomfortable I am, and maybe might question her own comfort level.

[emlev]

59. Here's what I did

My father considers himself progressive, and probably is in the voting booth whenever possible, but really doesn't get issues of oppression.

He started in one one of his rants about "Chinese drivers" and I said, "Dad, this is the kind of thing that makes me not want to be around you and not want my kids around you." He stopped short. What he thought about it then or since, I can't say.

[freeplessinseattle]

101. thank you, great idea, can't wait to use it

especially since this dude calls my black cat a N***** cat, which I've tried to point out expresses hostility towards my cat and all black cats-and ask him to explian why it is funny to do that, as he claims it is. trying to get him to think a little more, and see that his "humor" isn't funny at all, but is more for my mom's benefit, and I think she is getting it more since I left early last Christmas.

[baby_mouse]

55. Pretend you're a revolutionary anarchist.

Nod and say, yeah, yeah, but we need to blow up the government! Rant at them for a bit and then THEY go all polite and walk away... :D

Actually, that tactic probably isn't going to work anymore.

[Raejeanowl]

113. On Second Thought

I like your answer better, baby_mouse. Just say, "We need to blow them up" to EVERYTHING the bigot at the bus stop says.

[muffin1]

56. I shut down a freeper businessman

who was defending George Allen's racist behavior before the mid-term election (thank God that fool didn't win). I tend to be more straight forward with those who should know better - including sadly, my own father.
When dealing with racist rednecks, try telling them your mother, father, wife, husband, whatever is black. Then watch them go slack-jawed and slink away.:)

[dalaigh lllama]

60. Ask Miss Manners

From Miss Manners: Guide for the Turn-of-the-Millennium

In answer to the same query you posed, except the bigot was an elderly parent:

GENTLE READER:
Obviously, you are not going to succeed in retraining, much less educating, your father. Attempting it will only annoy you both. However, you can register your disapproval, in order to make yourself feel better, without being disrespectful. Bigoted jokes depend on the assumption that certain traits are linked to certain groups, and failure to acknowledge that connection ("Really? That's not my experience") robs them of their alleged fun.

This is a handy answer to use with folks you just don't want to be confrontational with, but at the same time, you can make a small change in their life view. Sorta like the butterfly effect.

[Le Taz Hot]

63. You're young and still inexperienced

in these situations, so, first of all, forgive yourself. As you get older you'll get better at knowing how to handle it. Here's how I would have handled it. Simple and to the point:

"I'd appreciate it if you kept your racist comments to yourself." Then put on BOTH headphones and ignore him. He was looking for an audience and you (unwittingly) provided him with one.

[Vilis Veritas]

64. By your own admission you are young...

and not experienced with this type of encounter. You seek advice on what to do next, while taking into consideration of who you are.

There is only one thing to do, IMO. Smile nicely (you said you can do that) and walk away. There is no need to confront or raise from ignorance those who are idiots, becuase it does no good. An idiot is an idiot. Ignorance can be cured. There is no cure for an idiot.

By doing this, you have taken the high road and smiled upon an idiot (he can not help it, he is an IDIOT).

Peace

[Roads]

67. I would have done what you did

like the other poster said, he can't help the circumstances that led him to become and idiot. I would feel sorry for him.

[Retired AF Dem]

69. People have the right to say anything they want

There is no reason to confront them. Just chalk it up that they are dumbasses and leave it at that.

[troubleinwinter]

71. "All that is needed for the forces of evil to succeed is for enough good men to remain silent."

[Retired AF Dem]

75. This is true

But why would you confront a complete stranger on the street? You don't know their history. You could end up with a bullet in the head and for what? Over some asshole that will never amount to anything but making noise?

[fudge stripe cookays]

79. Well...

why would a complete stranger on the street start ranting to me about racist bullshit? It's the same thing. He doesn't know my history. I could have had a brother murdered by the KKK, and be packing a weapon.

You never know who is going to do what. I'd rather live by a set of principles rather than keep my mouth shut "for safety's sake."

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

89. My principles

are behind self-preservation :P

[troubleinwinter]

81. Just sit in silent complacency and acqiuencscence to racist comments?

I do not accept it. You can if you want, of course, and evidently would. If a stranger makes such assertions to you, how fucking hard is it to say "Nonsense."? You are afraid to say one single word to someone spewing hate speech to you because they might kill you? You think the best option is to smile at it? Well, I guess I won't count much on you to stand up for what is right on any matter, because you don't have a background check on the history of those who might oppose you. You can go back to reading your magazine and smiling submissively now.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

91. I'm afraid that was just mean. We've already determined that we disagree.

In fact, I'll take your advice, and stand up for myself. Your opinions have been noted. I disagree with how you've responded. You can leave now :)
How was that? (Was this juvenile? Yes, but it did convey my point in its entirety, something difficult for me to do.)

[troubleinwinter]

94. I thought that was pretty good.

Maybe even somewhat confronational. "I disagree" might have been something to say to the stranger.

[Katherine Brengle]

100. True, so true.

[Vektor]

74. What I do - and it works without really being "confrontational"

is calmly say "Ya know, I'm not prejudiced against any group of people myself. I decide who I like and don't like on a case by case basis. I've found that there are good people of all shades, and not so good as well - it's about the individual person for me."

I have never had that statement fail me. It usually stops the bigot in their tracks, and without being outright aggressive, it definitely lets them know I don't agree with them, and offers another (more rational) viewpoint. It doesn't inflame the bigot or make them start getting pissed at me, but lets them know I'm not a captive or willing audience, and that what they're saying is not something I embrace. I think the key to this working without causing a fight is that it's a statement about me, not a judgment of them, at least not obviously.

"I feel..." versus "YOU are wrong/bad/ignorant." But it conveys the message gently that I DO feel they're wrong. It's all in the framing.

Good luck to you, and I'm sorry you had to encounter with this jerk. It can sometimes be hard to find your voice when you are young and caught in an uncomfortable situation. Hopefully you will find a way to respond that diffuses the situation next time.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

92. I think that I like your response the most.

Polite, non-confrontational, and the point is clear. I like it :) :thumbsup:

[Cleita]

77. As a senior, I've heard my share of racist, sexist, anti-semitic and

homophobic chatter in my lifetime. I try to be diplomatic but point out the errors of their thinking to them. Sometimes, many are just misinformed and propagandized. They will back off just like that man did proclaiming they aren't such and such because they don't have a good argument to give back. Putting on your headphones at that moment is a good move.

I have also, developed a mental stash of put downers over the years for instance, "If Jews were so smart and trying to take all your money, then why did they fight for the corner of the ME with no oil?" "If blacks were responsible for all the crime then why are all the gangsters in the movies portrayed as white? Doesn't art imitate life?" "If women are responsible for the ills of the world like opening Pandora's Box or Eve eating the apple, then why did men go along with it?" It takes some experience to get these little speeches finalized in your mind and the reactions to them, but in time you will became adept at fielding these bigots, and putting them in their place, but still able to keep a civil tongue about you.

Don't bother to tell them that they are wrong to their face. It just makes them want to fight. Politely, belittling them and making them feel foolish works much better.

[Madspirit]

83. Well

I am confrontational. Absolutely. Still, I tend to deal with the OBVIOUSLY mentally ill, differently than I do others. It's not that you cannot confront the mentally ill. I have a mental illness. I am bipolar and PTSD. I have been homeless, for years at a time. Since you don't know this man and he is raving in public, he is probably pretty nuts. He may be pondering delusions in his head that you do not have privy to. If he is psychotic, you really don't want to mix it up with him. He could hurt you. If he had been a bubba or a well-dressed, obviously sane person, I would have been in his face in a New York minute. With this man, for your own safety, I think you made the right choice. You can't know what craziness he might have going on inside. The mentally ill are much more often the victims of crime than the perpetrators of crime BUT when we do strike, particularly the paranoid schizophrenic, we can leave the place bathed in blood. If you got in his face and he is ill, you wouldn't have changed his mind and you might have gotten hurt.

Lee

[EFerrari]

86. The thing that makes me confrontational -- a mode that

I don't find very useful but resort to too often -- is when people deny bigotry exists or when they blame the victims.

And sometimes, that kind of response comes from the most surprising places, which makes it even harder to counter because you're not expecting it. (I mean, it takes time to put your jaw back, right?)

Imho, this culture is going backward on integration in all forms, on tolerance of difference. And that really concerns me.


/oops

[goodgd_yall]

97. I would have wanted the guy to know I don't agree with him

I wouldn't get in a rational argument, because I don't think that would go anywhere. I'd probably say something like "Look, I don't agree with you. Take your racist remarks somewhere else." Then turn my music up loud to block out his words.

[Katherine Brengle]

98. "The words themselves don't bother me..."

They should. Words can do as much damage as fists - sometimes more.

The way we talk about people translates directly to the way we treat them.

I understand your feelings on confrontation -- it's scary and it can be dangerous.

[ismnotwasm]

108. Say "That's racist"

Or bigoted, whatever. You'll probably get an argument if it's someone set it their ways, or maybe he'd quit talking to you. Might change the direction of the conversation.

Some times the simple responses are the best. I learned that from my husband. You see, his my husband's brother and his wife, used to think nothing making racist comments. I like them in most other ways, but I can't tolerate racist bullshit. In that situation, I'm ashamed to say, A Very Cold Silence was as best as I got, because they were in-laws. I had my husband handle it (It's YOUR brother, blah, blah. Pretty chickenshit of me, I'm usually not like that) And that's how my husband handled it. He'd simply say, "that's ignorant", or "that's racist", without going into a rant. It worked. They no longer make those comments in front of me, or him. They go out of their way to "mention" someone of color they saw or work with (rare, they live waaaaaaay out in the country, in a bastion of whiteness)

Another interesting, and very sad, observation is that they thought once making statements about blacks, "Asians" were fair game. They didn't get it--ALL RACIST COMMENTS suck. Anyway, this was all years ago, I believe they've mellowed somewhat. I would like to think we made a small change in how they think.

[DutchLiberal]

111. Well,

I dislike confrontation.

Me too. I will always try the hardest to avoid it. But when I hear racist remarks, that's one of the few times when I will speak up. Unless it's a very big, strong, intimidating guy of course. :P

[thegreatcause2]

112. a socially unskilled, ignorant loser

with his ignorant attitudes, no wonder he looked homeless. i am almost 50 years old and the world has changed big-time. fools, losers, and people with a low self-concept want to lash out with hate because deep down they hate themselves. the people i circle with are not racist at all. to the incidental strangers i encounter who are racist, i pity them as lost souls. it's the 21st century. we are 99.99% the same. no matter what imbeciles say, act out, or think- facts are stubborn things.