Vick Indictment: Whatever Happened To Innocent Until Proven Guilty?

[Bullet1987]

All I see on TV and on the internet are people labeling Vick as guilty before the trial has even started. Have the Duke Lacrosse Case, Kobe Bryant case, and Ray Lewis case taught us nothing? I turned to Nancy Grace on CNN because I know she talks about legal cases, and I all see is this public slaughter over indictments!! It's more like it's guilty until proven innocent with some people...there is a such thing as due process. Now, if Vick is found guilty and convicted...then he should be punished for it. But I'm just wondering if all these groups like the Media and PETA will apologize for destroying his name and reputation IF he isn't found guilty (the answer is probably no)? Very rarely do you see these groups apologize afterward, they'll just say he got off because of celebrity status. I'm very serious, the mob mentality is disturbing...

[jpgray]

1. As usual, best to wait until after the -trial- to pass judgment

But no one follows this maxim. It's in the news, people want to talk.

[trumad]

2. You lost me at "turned to Nancy Grace".

[Big Pappa]

3. Because the evidence is so damning.

And are you willing to give King George the same pass. Do believe he is also guilty of crimes?

[Bullet1987]

8. Bush is guilty because we KNOW what he's said in regards to the war

and Hurricane Katrina.

[Big Pappa]

13. You see its a double edge sword.

I "know" Vick is guilty because I saw those poor animals dead being taken from "his" property.

[Bullet1987]

19. How many celebrities have bought homes for people they know...

c'mon, no one has seen the evidence that he KNEW what was going on in that house.

[karlrschneider]

24. If you buy a house for a friend, you give them a DEED for it.

Then it belongs to them. Not very many people, celebrities or no, buy a 5 mil house and pay no attention to what's going on in it.

[Bullet1987]

28. Do you know any celebrities? And how they handle their affairs?

[karlrschneider]

33. Not actually celebrities, but I fly the airplanes owned by multimillionaires.

And so I travel, as it were, in their circles and know a bit about how they operate. Some of their names would be familiar to you I imagine, some would not.

[Big Pappa]

34. Sure pal

he just kept sending checks. Besides if it is in Vicks name, he damn sure better know what is going on in his house.

[Guaranteed]

What evidence?

There's a big difference between allegations and evidence.

[karlrschneider]

27. Allegations don't come out of thin air, they are -based- on evidence.

:eyes:

[Bullet1987]

29. Innocent until PROVEN guilty...have you ever heard of due process

Geez, you would think all people needed was an accusation to string somebody up without any rule of law.

[karlrschneider]

31. Check my posts. I have said repeatedly I absolutely embrace the concept of

'innocent until proven guilty'.

But when I see a big cloud of smoke, I'm guessing there's a fire somewhere nearby.

[Guaranteed]

40. That's simply not true.

One can make allegations without having any evidence whatsoever.

You're engaging in the classical juror's fallacy- hey, if they're sitting in the defendant's chair, then they must have done something.

[MGKrebs]

43. But this is an indictment. That means that

there has been an investigation, a grand jury has reviewed the evidence, and decided that there is enough there to proceed with a case. Not a guilty verdict, but not "no evidence" either.

[hlthe2b]

20. I don't know... when I saw in the court papers that he'd electrocuted

losing dogs he had forced to fight (for his pleasure) by throwing water on them and then zapping them, I just found it difficult to give him benefit of the doubt.

If the evidence is found to be bogus, my mea culpas will begin in earnest. Until then, I am simply too stunned and appalled to be more "understanding".

Like many here, animal and child cruelty are just too much for me to be rational about.

[Bullet1987]

26. Trust me, I'm not defending torture of ANY kind...

but an indictment is simply an allegation that NEEDS to be proven by the prosecution. That's the point of having a trial. The reactionary rhetoric I see amoung a lot of people when NO ONE has seen the prosecutions direct evidence put on trial is what's stunning!!

[hlthe2b]

32. NO one is saying he should not be considered innocent until

proven guilty... I'm not advocating we get up a lynch mob. I'm saying I am not able to give him the same benefit of the doubt. The court of public opinion does not have the same burden for innocent until proven.... And, as I've already stated, I'm fully prepared to eat crow, offer mega mea culpas, etc. if wrong. But, I am a walking no tolerance zone for animal/child cruelty. It is not within me to avoid reaching any opinion whatsoever based on the court papers. In fact, I know deep in side that if anything could make me violent, it is witnessing that...

If you can continue to be so totally without impressions, opinions, bias, well, I guess you can feel good about that.... But, don't confuse people having difficulty with their private opinions in terms of "innocent until proven" with having the opinion that we should "bypass trial" and go straight to maximum punishment. I doubt many, if any, really believe that.

[karlrschneider]

4. It's the horrifying nature of the crimes that SOMEONE in his immediate circle clearly committed.

It's REAL hard to imagine he wasn't aware of this activity. But you're right, he should be accorded basic right to be considered innocent until proven guilty. The Falcons and NFL haven't handled this well, though. They should have sidelined him with pay until it's resolved...that is standard procedure in almost every other venue and it mitigates the inevitable charges of favoritism or coddling. Any time a cop kills somebody, in the line of duty, it's normal to take them "off the beat" while the investigation continues.

edit: By the way, how do you feel about the O.J. Simpson trial?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

5. Can't Wait To See That Fucker Rot In Prison.

I've seen more than enough in the reports to be convinced he's an evil piece of garbage that should rot in hell.

If by the one in a billion chance my deduction is wrong occurs, you have my word I'll apologize wholeheartedly.

[Bullet1987]

10. Is an indictment trial evidence?

[karlrschneider]

11. Of course it is...it's the -reason- for the trial.

:eyes:

[Bullet1987]

18. No it's not...

the purpose of the trial is to PROVE the allegations in the indictment.

[karlrschneider]

22. Which would not take place absent the indictment.

The -trial- is to convince the jury the charges coming FROM the indictment are true. It isn't really all that complicated.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

12. Oh My God! Did I Just Get Warped From My Chair And Into A Jury Box, And No One Told Me?

Aaaaaarrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhh Where am I!!!!!!!!!!

[Guaranteed]

14. So passing judgment isn't your role anyway. nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

17. Doesn't Need To Be. I Still Can't Wait To See That Disgusting Fucker Rot In Prison. n/t

[Madspirit]

16. Have to agree with OMC on this...n/t

[Cha]

6. I read "Vitters"!

I can't keep up with all the Vs.

[Rex]

7. He says he didn't know anything about it - I will wait and see.

[karlrschneider]

9. Well, he might be stupid, (I don't know) but I'm pretty sure he isn't dumb enough to

admit it before trial...

[Rex]

15. I didn't know who he was until the news broke and believe me

if he is guilty of what he is charged with, then I hope he rots in prison. Ya, I wouldn't think anyone would be that stupid.

[karlrschneider]

21. I like football a lot but I'm not a fanatic about it...so I've seen him playing often.

He's a reasonably good quarterback but not spectacular IMO which isn't relevant anyway. I hesitate to say this, but he always seemed creepy to me for reasons I can't even explain. Just a feeling, you know? Kinda like how I see Cheney, that sort of thing.

[Rex]

25. I hear ya

Sometimes you just can't explain a gut feeling.

[karlrschneider]

30. I started to put it exactly that way but I remembered Chertoff's comments

the other day. Talk about internal conflict....yikes.
:shrug:

[Rex]

35. How ironic, I was thinking the same thing when I posted.

Yet, I've read your posts here for awhile now and I would take your gut feeling over anyone serving in office, at any level.

Chertoff didn't have a gut feeling IMO, someone told him to say it to prepare us for the worst. :(

[karlrschneider]

37. Thanks, I appreciate that. I often piss off some DUers because I don't fit into

any particular niche...I try my damndest to be honest and rational. That gets me in trouble at times. :D
And I think you're right about Chertoff. :-)

[Rex]

39. Well even if I don't always agree with you, I noticed that about you

I like rational and honest - the world would be so different if we could all be polite, honest and rational with each other. :)

[Bitwit1234]

23. The report I saw is he has attended and allowed dog figthing for years.

So people have testify to the authorities that he is involved.

[Big Pappa]

36. Innocent until proven guilty

is strictly for the courts. Not public opinion.

[karlrschneider]

38. Demonstrated quite dramatically by the O. J. Simpson trial.

oh, wait...

[TreasonousBastard]

41. So we'll give him a fair trial and then hang him...

meanwhile, fuck him-- they found 66 live dogs on the property after they busted the place on a drug raid, and there seemed little question fights happened on the property.

But he says he wasn't there much and had no idea they built all those fences and had all those dogs chained to truck axles.

Curiously, http://www.mikevick.com/ doesn't say a word about Bad Newz Kennels.

[trumad]

42. It's the Ken Lay defense...

I run the place but have no idea what happens in it.

[Vinca]

44. What happened? How about dozens of slaughtered dogs?

Did the dog-fighting fairy sneak onto his property in the middle of the night and do bad things? Get a grip. He's the worst kind of moron. He shouldn't be in professional sports, he shouldn't be raking in mountains of money on athletic products, he should be in jail and not walking among us.