Does the Earth care if it gets trashed by a Hummer or a Civic?

[taterguy]

Suppose one person drives a Hummer five miles and another person drives a high mileage car fifty miles on short trips that could have been done on foot or on a bicycle. The amount of fuel wasted is the same or more, the amount of toxins spewed is the same or more.

Why do some people on this site castigate the Hummer owner but rarely say anything about people taking car trips that aren't necessary? Is it because we can't come up with a consensus about which car trips are necessary?

I suspect that I'll regret posting this but I am curious about what people think and hope it doesn't turn into a flame-fest. I'm well aware that all people who post on this site are upstanding citizens who would never dream of using an internal combustion engine when it wasn't absolutely positively necessary. However, some of your neighbors might not be so conscientious.

[ThomWV]

1. Your choice, fast death or slow death

I agree.

Communications will have to replace transportation. Its that simple.

[taterguy]

4. Bicycles are transportation

I'm not suggesting that people become hermits, just that they become a little smarter about how they get from Point A to Point B.

[tridim]

15. Communication uses energy unless you're face-to-face

And if you're face-to-face you probably had to drive to get there.

I'd like to see the ratio of the energy used in driving vs. email. It's probably not even close, but I'd still like to see it.

[ThomWV]

41. Yes it does, but far far less of it.

And driving is anathema to the mass transportation that I advocate.

Go to a local airport and take a look at the business class flying public. Why are most of them flying anywhere rather than phoning? Not very many of them have good reasons. Certainly you do not argue that the cost of flying a person around the country is in any way less than communicating with them by electronic means, are you?

[tridim]

52. Believe me, I'm on my boss' ass all the time about unnecessary travel

He was in NYC early this week for a two hour meeting. It was a complete waste.

[northzax]

2. does the Earth care either way?

probably not, since it does not appear to be a sentient being.

[Squatch]

3. I love those "need-based" arguments:

As in

"Why would anybody need a 50,000 sf home?"

"Why would anybody need an AR-15?"

"Why would anybody need an H1 Hummer?"

If we only purchased/used what we needed, I'd be living in a cave lined with fragrant eucalyptus branches, wearing various animal skins, and beating away predators with a pointed stick. (The eucalyptus branches are an un-needed indulgence...I know)

[mondo joe]

6. It's the leftist Puritan streak that sometimes crops up.

I personally try to cultivate the leftist joy and pleasure streak instead. :-)

[taterguy]

9. I find that riding a bike is much more pleasurable than driving a car

Maybe I'm a freak :)

[driver8]

25. Maybe in North Carolina...not in Los Angeles!!

I would love to ride my bike to work -- I also want to live to see 45!

[kestrel91316]

I ride in LA BUT when I am riding my bike to work (3 miles down Ventura Bl)

I ride on the sidewalk. Yes, it's technically illegal. But LAPD patrol officers have told me pointedly that they NEVER ticket people for riding politely down the sidewalk, as opposed to fleeing the scene of a crime and knocking down little old ladies with the bike. I think they prefer we ride there - saves having to respond to dead cyclist calls and scraping us off the pavement.

Villaraigosa needs to stop chasing skirts and get busy providing us BIKE LANES, IMHO.

[gollygee]

31. Not in Michigan either, at least not in the winter

but of course global warming might change all that.

[JANdad]

68. Well there ya go...answered your own question Einstein...

:think:

[Squatch]

10. Mine's more of a moderation streak sprinkled with a few indulgences.

[mondo joe]

19. Actually, me too. I suppose I think a lot of people are.

Most people have their indulgences - everyone's just looks silly or wasteful to other people though.

[hfojvt]

44. the trouble comes when the greed and self indulgence

disregard health, ecology, and other people. Webster Hubbell, a good Democrat, once member of the Clinton administration, stole from his law clients because he could not live on a mere $150,000 a year. CEOs and corporations have to destroy unions and not pay benefits and work to keep the minimum wage down, because they want to have no limits to their self indulgence. I think it is a root of all kinds of evil.

[mondo joe]

54. Yes. And my issue is always HOW the money is made - not what people do with it.

If people make their money through ethical and legal means (which SHOULD be the same, though they often are not), then I don't really care what they spend it on.

[hfojvt]

55. Why can't there be ethics on the spending side?

Is it okay then, to spend one's money on dog-fights, child porn, or blood diamonds? Is it okay to spend (or invest) your money in a company that makes depleted uranium weapons? If you are going to allow ethical considerations, I don't see why the spending side should be immune from them.

[mondo joe]

67. I'm sorry - I thought it was implicit that spending would be limited to the same

range of legal purchases/activities.

What I meant was more like: if you earn a billion dollars legally and ethically and want to spend it on gold plated underwear and a big screen TV in every room in your house, be my guest.

[LanternWaste]

27. I simply replace "need" with "want".

I simply replace "need" with "want". Makes better sense to me after that...

[hfojvt]

35. So just because there is a slippery slope

does that mean that nothing is excessive, nothing is egregiously wasteful? For me to own two bicycles then, is just as self indulgent as going to Europe once a month in a private jet?

[OneMoreDemocrat]

5. Excellent point and question.......

I suspect that folks driving a Civic would over the life of the car would exert a far smaller
footprint ecologically speaking than would their brethren behind the wheel of the Hummer.

However, a Civic can and will cause adverse effects to the atmosphere but at the very least it's a step in the right direction and hopefully we'll be able to take a grand leap in said direction once either folks stop with the driving altogether or at the very least cars are made that don't require fossil fuels to run them.

[taterguy]

7. I'm not suggesting that people stop driving, just that they don't drive so much

Forty percent of all car trips are less than two miles. It disturbs me that people are reluctant to use their own power to go such a short distance.

[OneMoreDemocrat]

13. Neither am I......

'cause it'll probably never happen, just that it certainly wouldn't hurt.

I too have trouble with the idea that folks feel the need to drive everywhere when it isn't always necessary. I do however think that it is and will continue to change for the better as more and more of us come to the conclusion that it is this very automotive overuse (among other factors of course), that is causing the Planet (and us) to suffer needlessly.

[kestrel91316]

36. In my free time I try not to "need" to go anywhere that I can't walk or bike

or take mass transit to. Of course it helps that home and work are both two minutes' walk from the bus.

[NaturalHigh]

69. I'd love to debate this with you...

but my wife just got back from Taco Bell. I know...it's terrible for us to indulge in such luxuries, particularly driving the one mile when she could just walk in the miserable Oklahoma heat and humidity. I'll be sure to chastise her after I eat my soft tacos.

I just love the holier-than-thou attitude that pops up in here from time to time. :eyes:

[taterguy]

71. Heaven forbid people share opinions on this site

I am not a holy man and I'm not claiming I'm right or wrong.

I just enjoy discussing issues on this site and learning from them so that, well, progress can be made.

Sorry if that offends you :)

[countingbluecars]

8. What does the person with the Hummer

do for necessary fifty mile trips?

[MadHound]

11. Actually there are some differences between the two

When a Hummer and a Civic burn the same amount of gas, they still put out different amounts of pollution. The Hummer puts out more due to the size of its motor, the sloppiness of it's construction, and lack of pollution controls. It is classed as a truck, and trucks in this country don't have to meet the same pollution standards as cars.

In addition, making a Hummer consumes more resources since it is larger. It also consumes more automotive consumables while using the same amount of gas, things such as coolant, oil, brake fluid, etc., all because it is a larger vehicle. Hummers are also physically harder on the roads, and also off road. The sheer weight of a Hummer on the road breaks down the road surface quicker. A Hummer is also more likely to be used off road than a Civic, thus wrecking natural enviroments. Even if a Civic was taken off road, it would do less damage simply because of its smaller size.

I agree with your premise concerning unnecessary trips, and that those need to be curbed. I've found that living out in a rural area forces you to not waste trips since everything is far away. That same mentality needs to be applied to all people, but developing that sort of thing takes time.

[goodgd_yall]

64. Plus

In a collision between a Hummer and a Prius, guess who gets the fewer injuries. I have heard people buy large vehicles for protection in the case of a crash. A kind of "I got mine" attitude.

[wuushew]

12. Do you contend that significant mileage differences exist by auto type?

I assume since Hummer owners have kids and also buy groceries, they engage in the same type of errands all other motorists do.

It would not be a hard hypothesis to prove or disprove. Just take a representative community and measure the average distance to the nearest 5-10 common errand locations and perform a statistical analysis of the two data sets.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

21. Tell Me: Should Someone Guilty Of Killing Two People In Cold Blood Have The Right To

lift their nose in a holier than though manner towards someone who was guilty of killing four? Should the former be of the right to smugly and condescendingly turn to the latter and snidely say "Filthy murderer"?

[wuushew]

23. In what way was that a response to my post?

:shrug:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

26. You Seemed To Be Inferring That When Commutes Are Equal, The Hummer Driver Is Worse.

The OP was stating that almost none of us are guilt free as it relates to polluting the environment via our transportation. Your post seemed to be inferring that there are ways and reasons as to why the Hummer owners are worse. I posted the analogy as a way to highlight what I find wrong with many here who deride others for their environmental choices, when they aren't innocent themselves. If I mistook your post then my apologies, but it seemed to be what you were trying to infer.

[taterguy]

22. My only contention is that it's just as bad to waste fuel in a Civic as it is in a Hummer

Granted, you can do it a lot faster in a Hummer but waste is waste.

[gollygee]

39. No, there are degrees of waste

you can waste a little or waste a lot. You're right that you can do tons of excessive driving in a Civic and waste as much as a great deal less excessive driving in a Hummer, but that's not an apples-to-apples comparison at that point. Most people do some necessary and some unnecessary driving. Someone who is driving a Civic is therefore less wasteful.

[TahitiNut]

14. The Earth is not threatened - it'll do quite nicely, maybe even better without humanity.

It's not a matter of threatening the Earth itself but a matter of making it less habitable for human beings. In a way, that'd be Justice - since human beings have made the Earth less habitable for nearly every other existing life form (plant and animal) ... except rats and cockroaches.

[HonorTheConstitution]

16. Sorry for ranting - But you do not need a science degree to know that the mileage of a hummer

is much worse than a hybrid or a bluetec diesel limousine or hatchback.

Granted that, if the hummer is only used to drive 5 miles to Sunday church than a Hummer is better for the invironment than the other car being driven everyday for the 50mile commute.

And energy conservation by taking the bycicle for short trips is good, but not always practical.

[Swede]

17. How many soldiers to the mile does a hummer get?

nt

[LWolf]

18. I think the earth cares

about the attitude of the persons living on her. Those attitudes can be seen in the choices people make, both about what to drive and how often/how far to drive.

If someone knows that they will be driving many miles, not for selfish reasons but for serious reasons, then I hope they get a civic. A hybrid civic, or a smart car, or something that will do those miles as cleanly as possible.

I live rurally. I know all the reasons for wanting a bigger, more powerful vehicle. To be honest, I don't see that the hummer is the best choice for any of those practical needs. I honestly don't see the hummer as anything but a status symbol, which is not a worthy enough reason to drive even 5 miles a day.

I hope that people who live close enough to be able to walk or bike, do when possible. I hope that people who have efficient public transportation available use it. I hope that people who are driving themselves do so as cleanly and efficiently as possible. All of this is part of the attitude that will leave a smaller footprint on the earth.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

20. I Agree With You Fully. I Posted A Similar Concept Months Ago As Well.

Some just feel the need to lift their noses up at others, in order to falsely convince themselves that they are some how better human beings. In my opinion, it shows a void of self confidence and worth on their part that they need to artificially fill by fooling themselves of some these ideals. Not all mind you, but many I'm sure.

Fact is, the overwhelming majority here are on no real ground to critize anyone for their environmental choices. It's all just false preaching and oftentimes hypocritical rhetoric.

[Madspirit]

24. ...and you know this about your fellows how?...n/t

[wuushew]

33. What is your mode of transport OMC?

Inquiring minds want to know. Why is not "cool" to care about the environment? Not giving a damn about other people's largess does nothing to stop the damage done by our collective life styles.

I do not accept that all living is waste, so what difference does it make argument either. We can live well and with material comforts(See Europe). However, not only does the American lifestyle carry a massive carbon footprint it is not sustainable economically either. This is not my opinion, look at the facts at hand and tell me how our selfish individual actions carry no negative consequences in both the long and short term.



Freedom is great, but I can't rejoice as people voluntarily choose the fastest way to hell.

[Virginia Dare]

34. Hypocrites to the left of me, hyprocrites to the right...n/t

[LanternWaste]

37. I'm pretty happy with reducing my carbon footprint

I'm pretty happy with reducing my carbon footprint, something I think every should do. Not because I lack self-confidence or self-esteem, but because it appears to me that I'm riding the tide of a new awareness.


"It's all just false preaching and oftentimes hypocritical rhetoric." Well chief, that covers 99% of all human conversations...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

49. I'm Happy Reducing My Carbon Footprint As Well.

That's not the issue. It's when one uses that as source for derision of others while lifting their nose in the air, of which I was referencing above.

We all should strive to reduce our carbon footprint. I just don't think the overwhelming majority of people here have any solid ground to stand on in lifting their noses at people who they consider to not be doing as much as they.

[LanternWaste]

62. You interpret people lifting their noses in the air.

You interpret people lifting their noses in the air.

Guess no one has any solid ground to stand on when we talk about starvation, either-- for we all know, as long as someone has a game boy, an i-pod, a computer, hell... even a book-- that's money that could have been used to by someone who's starving some food. So I guess *anyone* who has *any* extraneous, non-unnecessary stuff at home should shut the fuck up about hunger and get off our high horses on that one, too?

Sheesh....

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

65. Again, You're Combining Separate Issues.

Wanting to do better is one thing. Deriding others while one sticks their nose up in the air, when they are guilty enough themselves, is something altogether different.

Why are you having so much trouble understanding this?

For example, re-read my sound analogy above. Now change it to be the first murderer declaring that murder is wrong and efforts should be put forth to reduce it. Would he have the right to say so? Absofuckinglutely he would. But would it be rational or reasonable for him to say the things in the analogy? Absolutely not. Can you see the difference now? I'm hoping you do.

[LanternWaste]

70. Re-read my analogy while we're at it...

Re-read my analogy while we're at it. It seems more apt in the context of this discussion.

May I, with right and conscious, act against starvation whilst simultaneously owning unnecessary consumer goods? Is that different in theory/morality than the OP? If so, what are the precise and relevant differences?

Guess I'm just a dumb-ass because I actually *don't* understand your argument....

[mondo joe]

28. In the other Hummer thread it was funny to see people complain about the driver living w his mom,

as if living in 2 properties wouldn't double the use of resources.

[wuushew]

46. I just found it a strange conflict of purpose

money was spent on an expensive status symbol while overlooking the massive negative effects of living at home with your mother.

From personal experience I can attest to the social difficulties living at home entails.

Do you really think that guy was living at home to maximize resource utilization?

His mother could always cash out the equity and downsize to a smaller condo or apartment complex.

[mondo joe]

51. I have no clue about their family situation.

I wuoldn't think he was doing it for environmental impact - but that's not my point.

My point is that people who ARE outraged over wasted resources seemed to think he shouldn't be doubling up with his family, oblivious to the fact that they are encouraging MORE waste.

[greyl]

29. Don't buy a Prius - stop driving!

Good post.
The reaction against Hummers (which I tend to have too whenever I see one) is because Hummers are exemplars of conspicuous consumption, waste, militarism, and lame alpha male style expressions strength.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

32. exactly and its human nature to make some assumptions. one, being that someone in a hummer

is also driving for the joy of driving

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. i'll be honest with you. when someone in driving around in a hummer

especially given all that we now know about the state of the environment, i make an assumption, that they are willfully wasting energy.

people with small cars can also waste energy, but just by owning and driving a hummer suggest a peson who is callous about the environment.

i'd like to know how many du'ers drive a hummer responsibly. as in drive as little as humanly possible.

[taterguy]

38. Good luck finding a DUer that admits to owning a Hummer :)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

45. but thats kind of my point, people who are aware of the environment and care about it

dont own hummers.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. You're suggesting people who drive Hummers drive responsibly?

:rofl:

[taterguy]

47. I'm not suggesting that at all

I'm just saying that it's just as bad to waste gas in a Civic as it is in a Hummer

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

48. That's true.

But Hummers waste more gas.

[HughBeaumont]

42. I'd LOVE to not be able to drive a car.

But unfortunately most, if not ALL, city structures (i.e. roads, public transportation, etc) combined with personal situations simply don't allow for it. Climates also play a role; when you live in Ohio, you're only riding less than half the year at most.

When I go to the local beach, I definitely take the bike, since it's only 8 miles away. It's great exercise and the most effective stress relief I can think of.

[Orsino]

43. It's because absolutely no laws limit which trips are "necessary"...

...and gas is relatively cheap. People who don't need huge-ass vehicles are free to drive them as much as they can afford, and cultural pressures still glorify conspicuous consumption.

If you want to change behavior, mandate some limits, or tax/penalize those who consume beyond some arbitrary level. Until then, we're just talking.

[taterguy]

53. I prefer changing behavior with education and peer pressure

It's not illegal to smoke in this country (yet), but people have cut back on it drastically because they realize how bad it is. I'd love to see something similar happen with unnecessary car trips, once we can figure out what constitutes necessary

[Orsino]

57. I was tempted to ask, "How's that working?"

But you're right. That would be preferable. I just don't see it happening as long as we Americans can pretend that our cars are our penises, and that no damned furriners or librulz are gonna tell us what to do with 'em. I don't see public opinion changing until the hobby becomes too expensive. When cars are just toys for rich people, and the rest of us are out of work and starving, then you'll see conservation, and the stigmatizing of automobiles. I think that by then there won't be an America anymore.

[taterguy]

58. 20 years ago I didn't see the war on tobacco coming

I live in the heart of tobacco country. Once upon a time restaurants here went bankrupt for having the nerve to set up on a non-smoking section. Now it's almost impossible to find a restaurant here with a smoking section.

Change is possible.

[Orsino]

66. And cigarettes are similarly phallic, too.

I think that knowledge of the personal health risks of smoking has made the change. But even so, we know that cars kill tens of thousands of people per year, too; I don't see any chinks in the
I hope you're right, though. I hope we can change.

[Clark2008]

50. I don't know - I wouldn't own either one of 'em.

[gollygee]

56. Just because people can't do everything doesn't mean they shouldn't do something

I hate this all-or-nothing thinking. So if someone drives a Civic and occasionally drives when he/she doesn't need to, that person might as well be driving a Hummer?

The world will be better served if all people make some changes and do what they feel they can do then if a few people willing to martyr themselves do absolutely everything but no one else bothers because, hey, they can't be perfect so why bother.

[Lilith Velkor]

60. Thank you!

:thumbsup:

[goodgd_yall]

63. Agreed. n/t

[Forkboy]

59. I just spoke to the Earth...it said "yes".

I didn't get a chance for a follow-up question because it started going on about humans being terrorists and some such gobbledygook.All I caught was "with the Earth or against it." :shrug:

[Luna_C_06]

61. I use to walk everywhere

and I mean everywhere. Even people who lived across town from me called me the "walking girl" or "that chick who walks everywhere" (really). I walked home from school, then walked over to the gym, and before that, in the mornings, walked to the store for milk, bread, cheese, eggs, etc...whatever my mother needed that day. With 10 lbs of leg weights on EACH leg. But 2 years ago my heart decided to go nuts and now my resting pulse rate can be as high as 150 bpm (it's 130 right now). On top of that I'm a type 1 diabetic. I still try to walk a lot, but now it's much harder. I just don't have the energy or muscle mass I use too, you should have seen my thigh muscles, heh, I could leg press almost 400 lbs, but now my legs look like my 10 year-old lil' sister's! (and I'm only 21!). Plus my little car, that got about 36 mpg, just broke and I have to take my mother's SUV to run errands.