So, if I found the Snickers ads funny

[Oeditpus Rex]

and thought they made fun of homophobes rather than inciting violence against gays, then I must be a homophobe, and a supporter of child/slave labor to wit.

Is that about right? Am I missing anything?

[XemaSab]

1. That's about right

Here's a link you might enjoy:

www.freerepublic.com

:popcorn:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

110. A lot of people on this thread...

need that link.

[donco6]

2. Just that "No Flamebait" sign back down the road. n/t

[Oeditpus Rex]

Half the threads in GD are flamebait

Spare me.

[donco6]

5. Half plus one . . . now. n/t

[Oeditpus Rex]

9. It's a legitimate question

I've seen one person labeled a homophobe based purely on the fact that he disagreed with some about the point of the ads.

I want to know if that's the consensus.

[JackBeck]

11. You asked two questions. n/t

[Oeditpus Rex]

14. And you answered the rhetorical one (n/t)

[JackBeck]

16. Which is yes, you are missing something.

[Oeditpus Rex]

18. Okay

If it'll make you happy, yes — I watched all four internet ads (I didn't watch the game) and the players' reactions. My own reaction is in another thread, but should be pretty clear from what I've posted here.

[donheld]

3. I'm gay, I see nothing homophobic about the ad

People need to lighten up! or so I thought till I saw the entire campaign, then I changed my mind.

[JackBeck]

7. Do you see anything homophobic about the ad campaign?

Where the NFL players got to register their disgust on line at two guys kissing?

[donheld]

12. I just saw the ad campaign for the first time

Yes it is homophobic!

[JackBeck]

4. You're missing the whole ad campaign.

Did you see the internet part where there were alternate endings to choose from?

And did you see the players' reactions to the ad shown on TV?

There's a very valid reason why today's activism shut-down this ad campaign. I'm rather disappointed that DU couldn't support their GLBT posters as much as their glee during the Jeff Gannon revelation. Or Mark Foley disclosure. Or the Ted Haggard matter.

[Oeditpus Rex]

6. Answer the question, please

I'm not here to debate the ads. That's been done to death.

[JackBeck]

8. I did answer your question.

When you asked "am I missing anything?"

[Oeditpus Rex]

10. Cute (n/t)

[JackBeck]

13. You asked two questions. Why the sarcasm?

I answered what I thought was part of your OP. What's wrong with that?

[Oeditpus Rex]

17. See post #14

I thought the point of the OP was clear. I want to know if I and others are being categorized solely on our reactions to the ads.

[JackBeck]

19. The OP is loaded.

"If I agree with x, y, and z, does that make me a (fill in the blank)."

You're making fun of some wise on-line activism that was unfolding today on DU.

Many of us thought that the OVERALL CAMPAIGN AD BY SNICKERS, not just the commercial, was homophobic. Bluebear took it to another level with his investigative curious self to look at Mars' labor laws, which uncovered some rather somber findings. What's your problem with addressing the things your fellow DUers uncover?

Remember, John at americablog was the one who gave us Jeff Gannon.

[Oeditpus Rex]

20. Okay, never mind

I thought I might get a straight answer, though I also thought I'd get a hundred snarky ones. I didn't expect to get danced around and to rehash the entire debate.

I honestly want to know if I and others are categorized as homophobes because we disagree with others about the ads, but it doesn't look like I'm going to get an answer, and I'm sorry now I started the thread. I should've given it more thought first.

[JackBeck]

22. I would never call someone a homophobe for liking the commercial.

And I don't think that was what the discussion was about today. It was about the OVERALL AD CAMPAIGN that came to light after John posted his findings on americablog.

Listen, once I saw what the Snickers website was all about, I was just as pissed off as many other DUers which had no idea what was going on. But the non-intellectually curious decided to frame the debate here solely on the commercial. I'm starting to think that DUers don't click on links and read the whole story. Especially after today.

[bettyellen]

149. true, the OP is designed to give the commercial enjoyer "victim status"

i hope some of his compadres come along and accuse him of enjoying being a victim.
ain't that what usually follows?

[cboy4]

24. Did they have an alternative ending where the real gays guys who

were kissing had the fuck beat out of them with a baseball bat?

Yea, that ad was some funny shit . . . if you're like in 5th grade.

[orleans]

27. please enlighten a bit

what ad "campaign" ?

and a website where players were posting their reaction to the snickers kiss ad? was this a snickers website? an nfl website? although i can imagine--what were they saying?

[cboy4]

35. This includes the link to the ad at Americablog - - -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x128937

[treestar]

143. IA, it is really unfair to point to the ad campaign in the context

of laughing at the ad, when that's all you saw.

I thought the ad was stupid.

[northzax]

241. seems to me that it makes the players look like idiots

and the activism gave this ad much more attention that it ever deserved. it was a ridiculous, poorly designed ad campaign, and protesting it to the extent that it has been has kept it alive in the conciousness of the country for days longer than it deserved.

unfortunately, we live in a world in which something as natural as two men kissing (although in this case, I think the reaction, as a hetero man is more towards the accidental kissing, I have no problem with anyone kissing, but haven't we all been, at some point, surprised by a kiss we really, really, didn't want?) will create a reaction in some people. the best thing to do, frankly, is to show people having that reaction in absurd ways, make it ridiculous to do so, something to laugh at (the reaction, not the act, of course)

and no, I had not seen the ads on the website, since the ones during the game weren't worth paying attention to. The use of a wrench at least shows that someone really didn't do their homework and crosses the line.

[TahitiNut]

15. Do you smoke, too?

:evilgrin:

[Hippo_Tron]

30. But seriously, how do you feel about John Edwards' house?

Personally I'm okay with it as long as his wife doesn't breast feed in public

:rofl:

[youthere]

51. My feral cat smokes when it kills songbirds.

[Lurking Dem]

69. But is it circumcised?

[youthere]

117. but of course!

[Lex]

21. Someone once said

“It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive.”


I agree.

[uppityperson]

23. On the 1 hand, I thought they were funny, in a sort of bathroom humor way.

The whole thing online, with the football players watching and grimacing "eww" as the guys lips touched, was a bit much. I can see that it was making fun of homophobic behavior, and can see that it was letting views laugh both at and with the guys going "ewww our lips touched". Hard call on this one, but overall, I'd give it a pass.

[Katherine Brengle]

25. I'm with you, however unpopular that stance may be. nt

[Guaranteed]

26. It's not, however the bullying may make it seem.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=132453&mesg_id=132453

[Katherine Brengle]

89. Good point actually --

but we are in politically correct hell which says if even one person found it bothersome, it is legitimately an affront to all civilization...

[Midlodemocrat]

235. So would you be okay with it being anti-feminist?

or racist? Cause it's the same thing.

I'm not offended by the term feminazi, in fact I think it's quite funny, so if you are that's too bad? Isn't that what you are saying?

[Katherine Brengle]

270. If I felt the ad was homophobic, I would have a big problem with it --

but having seen it, I did not get that impression. Therefore your comparison doesn't hold water.

And I also gave the caveat that I have not yet seen the whole ad campaign - that could well change my opinion.

[Midlodemocrat]

295. Point being, unless you're gay, you don't get to decide what is or

isn't homophobic.

Any more than I get to decide what's racist because I'm white.

[Katherine Brengle]

312. Okay, fine.

So, unless something is directly effecting you as an individual, you have no right to an opinion?

I don't think that holds up in the slightest.

[Midlodemocrat]

320. LOL. You can 'have' all the opinions that you want.

But unless you are gay, you don't get to tell a gay person that the ad isn't homophobic. Think whatever you want to, but don't tell them to 'lighten up' 'get over it' 'this is what is wrong with this party' shit.

Not just directed at you. Everyone who has said any of the above in any form or manner regarding this ad campaign.

[Bluebear]

28. As long as you were amused.

Sorry about pointing out the child labor stuff. I really harshed the buzz of a lot of people who liked the ad.

Did it ever occur to you to ask any of us why we found the campaign offensive, or was the point of this thread to call us silly for being so sensitive?

[Oeditpus Rex]

29. No, and I'm sorry if it appeared that way

I'm not familiar with the campaign, just the four ads and the players' reactions.

I interpreted the ads as making fun of homophobia, and what I saw in the players' reactions didn't indicate homophobia on their own parts to me, but a kind of "Wow, they're putting that on TV?" reaction. (Hell, Grossman said they were "up there with some of the best I've ever seen.") I can't imagine anything someone could say that would change my mind.

BUT — as I always do in situations like this, I considered what others might find offensive, how their interpretation could differ from mine, and I could see that. It didn't change my perspective, but it did let me understand the anger to some degree. To understand it fully, I'd probably have to be gay — and there've been many times I've wished I could be "gay for a day" to get a greater understanding. Since that's not possible, I've often consulted with gay friends at DU. (I don't have any that I'm aware of IRL, which I consider a loss.)

So, imagine how I felt when I saw another "straight" guy called a homophobe because his interpretation was largely the same as mine.

That's all I'm talking about.

[Bluebear]

31. Thanks for the thoughtful response.

Actually I think you would have to see the (now unavailable) clips at the Snickers website that showed various Chicago Bears viewing the ad, and when the two men's lips touch, the football players wretch and gag, say "Ooh, that's nasty, that's just wrong" etc.

There were various clips there which you vote to be the "most satisfying ending" to the ad. The finished result would be broadcast on a NASCAR telecast.

As to being satire, my good friend ThomCat said it best: "No commercial is going to use satire that people aren't going to get and that wouldn't appeal to most people if they got it."

I don't know who is and who is not a homophobe here, but gay people do get tired being told to "lighten up", "get over it", etc. I'm sure you understand. :)

[Oeditpus Rex]

32. I did see those clips

Or, maybe I didn't. I saw clips of players' reactions, but I don't remember "That's nasty" or "That's just wrong." Maybe they edited them before I got there. :shrug:

I voted on one, too — the one where they ripped off their chest hair. Thought the screams were funny, like the "Home Alone" kid with the after-shave. :7

As for "Lighten up" et al, I wouldn't say that as long as I was aware that I couldn't possibly understand the entire issue. But remember, too, that "straight" people tire of being told "You don't understand" when we can't understand. That's frustrating as hell to me. Don't scold us, enlighten us.

Of course, if we refuse to be enlightened... well, that's another story.

:toast:

[Puglover]

38. Look at it this way.

You're a smart guy and you see it the way you see it. Do you honestly believe a knuckledragging homophobe will see it as poking fun of homophobes? Or hypermasculinity? C'mon. You don't need to be enlightened. They do.

[BlackVelvet04]

158. The commercial in and of itself was just silly but coupled with the

stuff found on the internet puts a whole new light on it. Was it inappropriate? Yes. Was it unacceptable? Yes. BUT I really wish people would quit being "offended". Using the word offended gives the impression that one is emotionally hurt, angered or upset and I think that's giving way too much power to others. We are each responsible for our own feelings and others only have the power we give them.

As long as we give the power to others to hurt us, anger us or upset us we will be emotional basket cases. And quite frankly I see a lot of those on the internet message boards. We can take inappropriate and unacceptable behavior by others and let that propel us to action but it's not good to sit in our own emotional shit.

[JackRiddler]

76. I hated the ad

I hate almost all ads.

I stopped having Snickers 20 years ago and don't need to boycott Mars since there isn't a single product of theirs I buy.

I am glad you came up with the findings that Mars exploits child labor. This does not "harsh my buzz," it makes me glad that significant issues may yet be the focus of our collective activism. If your over-reaction to the Snickers ad ends up raising awareness about that, then it's probably worth the effort.

As a male whose sexual desire attaches to women (commonly known as "straight"), I didn't identify with the people in the ad.

If you didn't insert unwarranted assumptions and mangled logic into your posts, and effectively call people homophobic supporters of gay-bashing for disagreeing with your interpretation of one particular commercial, you might not inspire this much resistance. This is a debate board and some people are just going to be offended by logical fallacies.

What's worse: this ad, or the fact that Mars advertises and markets to children products that make them fat and ultimately sick? Why wasn't that a reason to be offended?

[radfringe]

33. how funny would this version be?

two white guys grab for the same snickers bar and fumble it. In an effort to catch the snickers bar they are tap-dancing.

when they finally catch the candy bar - one of them say "I think we just tap danced"

the second one says "Quick do something white"

[LostinVA]

37. Yup

[myrna minx]

82. Exactly. n/t

[redqueen]

121. Excellent analogy. n/t

[radfringe]

139. how about this version

two peoplesplit a snickers bar, and argue over who got the larger "half". in the course of arguing and "measuring" each half - the canday bar falls into a mud puddle

both people exclaim "OY VAY"

then look at each other in horror and shout "Quick do something Christian" and they beat somebody up

[cboy4]

34. I'm not sure how this makes you feel, but don't you see things

starting to add up?

Mars family, owner of anti-gay Snickers franchise, are top billionaire Republican activists

Some of you mentioned that the Mars family, which owns Snickers and M&Ms and lots of other candy brands, isn't just the family that produced the series of violent homophobic ads yesterday, they're also one of the Republicans' top billionaire activist families.

Looking up the Mars family on FecInfo, we found over $10,000 in donations from a Jacqueline Badger Mars, of The Plains, Virginia, to Republican causes, including John McCain's exploratory committee for president. Jacqueline Badger Mars is also the name of one of the Mars daughters - she's worth $10 billion or so - and the Mars corportation just happens to be based in Northern Virginian which is where The Plains, Virginia is located as well. Thus, I think it's safe to conclude that this is the same woman.
http://americablog.blogspot.com/2007/02/mars-family-owner-of-anti-gay-snickers.html

Probably the second best reason why you should not approve of the ad campaign.

[WinkyDink]

36. I might consider your sense of humor puerile.

[deacon]

39. The ad was hilarious- end of subject- a joke, thats all n/t

[Bluebear]

41. Oh excellent, THAT SETTLES IT THEN!

"end of subject" my ass.

[deacon]

45. To read anything other than a joke on homophobes is ridiculous

How anal retentive have we become not to laugh at something so funny? Oh, lets ban monty python from our airwaves next...

Oh, an Obamo smokes cigarettes too- that must be the utmost in terrible goings on...oooooooooooooooooooo

Bush wants to sacrifice troops in Iraq to look good somehow and dump 2 trillion more in spending? no big deal I guess.

[Bluebear]

46. The largest gay human rights group disagrees with you

But as long as YOU say it's OK.

And PS don't you dare say that it's "no big deal" what Bush is doing like we haven't been paying attention. Jeez.

====


WASHINGTON– The Human Rights Campaign, the nation's largest gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender civil rights organization, is calling on the makers of Snickers, and its parent company Mars Inc., to pull the ad campaign launched yesterday during the Superbowl. The ad features two presumably straight men who accidentally engage in a kiss and then try to distance themselves from any perception of being gay by “doing something manly.”

Three alternate endings to the commercial spot are posted on the Snickers website, one of which includes the two men violently attacking one another – which sends a dangerous message to the public condoning violence against gay Americans.

HRC President Joe Solmonese issued the following statement:

“The makers of Snickers and its parent company at Mars should know better. If they have any questions about why the ad isn’t funny, we can help put them in touch with any number of GLBT Americans who have suffered hate crimes.”

Two other video clips posted on the Snickers website feature players from the Bears and the Colts watching the ads and responding to the two men kissing.

Solmonese continued:

“This type of jeering from professional sports figures at the sight of two men kissing fuels the kind of anti-gay bullying that haunts countless gay and lesbian school children on playgrounds all across the country. Eighty-four percent of GLBT students report being verbally harassed at school, and this type of ad only reinforces that.”

“Is Snickers suggesting that people who eat their candy bars are cavemen? It’s an odd market to court, particularly after the Isaiah Washington flap a couple weeks ago, which clearly showed that there’s a strong distaste out there for people who portray themselves as anti-gay or holding on to old prejudices and stereotypes.”

“Mars and Snickers need to pull the ‘Wrench’ ad and the footage of the NFL players out of their campaign immediately.”

The Human Rights Campaign is America’s largest civil rights organization working to achieve gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender equality. By inspiring and engaging all Americans, HRC strives to end discrimination against GLBT citizens and realize a nation that achieves fundamental fairness and equality for all.

http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Home&CONTENTID=35307&TEMPLATE=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm

[deacon]

47. Okay, let's redo the ad then- two guys lapping up a snickers bar

like old cartoons use to lead spagetti slurping into a kiss and have a macho reaction- now hear this, by pulling their chest hair out-seriously, this is too stupid to waste time with. Again, if we have become so incredibly anal retentive over a stupid ad with an aim at a laugh, ohhhhhhhhhhh. just blame karl rove....

[Bluebear]

48. Yeah "we have become anal retentive". Jerk.

[Dorian Gray]

170. i'm somebody that didn't think that the commercial was a big deal,

but it certainly wasn't funny, either.

My opinion? For what it's worth? The commercial was stupid.

[LostinVA]

174. Did you see the ad campaign, including the players' reactions?

Or, just the ad.

[Dorian Gray]

193. Just the ad...

I'm not arguing to diminish the feelings of people who were offended. I'm arguing against the idea that the commercial was at all funny. It wasn't. It was stupid. And, in my selfish way, I don't care about anything else dealing with the commericial, as it was too stupid to pique my interest in going online to check out how the players reacted to it or anything else. And I don't like Snickers, anyhow. :)

I guess I can see where the GLBT community would feel that it was evoking ingrained homophobia, and that they would be insulted or offended by that sentiment. And, I am admittedly not GLBorT, so the commercial didn't personally offend me (except for my sensibilities, as it was so stupid). I won't diminish other people's feelings regarding the commercials. I'm stunned, however, that some of the people arguing against the offensiveness of the ad believed that it was "funny." I didn't find it amusing at all. Nor did I personally find it insulting. But, it certainly wasn't funny.

[LostinVA]

224. No, I was just curious

The planned ad campaign/other ads were WAY worse than the Superbowl one... which was bad enough.

[Dorian Gray]

319. Then it's good that this campaign

is being scrapped. :) This is a great portrayal of the power of the public.

[terrya]

44. Oh well, if YOU say so.

Gosh, thanks for telling us how to think. My, you're the "decider" now, aren't you?

[deacon]

49. And thank yourself for going nuts over a friggin snickers bar

commercial. And, shhhhhhhhhh, Obama smokes cigarettes too...shhhhhhhhhhhh

[terrya]

50. That's not the point.

The point is, as a gay person such as myself, that broadcasting a message that "the absolute worst thing in the world is being thought of as gay" is wrong.

But I imagine I'm talking to a brick wall at this point.

[Katherine Brengle]

114. No offense, but those who feel offended are doing the same thing -- telling the rest of us

how we are supposed to perceive the thing.

Don't be a hypocrite.

[LostinVA]

145. No, we are saying you should respect us being offended

I know you're a huge advocate of women's rights (yay!). I KNOW from reading your posts that you would be offended if the ad was making fun of women via institutionalized sexist stereotypes. And, i know you wouldn't like it if men were telling you to "lighten up" and quit "acting loony."

[Katherine Brengle]

148. No, I understand, just don't agree --

and it doesn't seem like that's been "allowed" by a lot of DUers in the past couple of days...

I also have to say I have no seen the entire ad campaign, haven't had time yet, so my view might well change if I did see it.

[Midlodemocrat]

154. That isn't what the GLBT community is saying

at all.

They're saying that this ad was offensive. And, that people should respect the fact that it was found offensive by members of this website.

If the ad was perceived as being racist, rather than homophobic, would you feel the say way?

Equal rights for all. Everyone. No questions asked.

[ThomCat]

180. Would you say the same thing it the commercial

mocked women instead of gay men?

Look elsewhere for hypocricy. A mirror might help.

[aceman2373]

78. I agree, except those two guys were ugly

and nobody wants to see ugly people kissing.
HaHa

[terrya]

40. We gay people get tired of homophobia.

We wished that SOME people (not all) would be more enlightened about homosexuality and gay and lesbian people in general. After all, you might have a family member who is gay or lesbian. Or a friend. Or a co-worker. We simply ask for respect. Again, being gay is not the worst thing in the world. But when we gay people see ads like the Snicker ads, where homosexual panic is displayed, then there are people, such as myself, who have a big problem with that. And to make matters even worse, when you mention how offensive these ads are, sometimes you are told, condescendingly, that you are in a big tizzy and that you need to "lighten up".

[dysfunctional press]

83. and we athiests get tired of religious zealotry...

but we've learned to live with it.

lighten up.

[Midlodemocrat]

107. It's not the same.

Gays can't marry. Can't be in the ICU with their SO if the SO's family forbids it.

As an atheist, you might be offended at certain things, in much the way people are offended by racist crap, but the corre of who you are isn't being denied any rights at all.

[dysfunctional press]

116. and the snickers ad denies rights, how exactly...?

nt.

[Midlodemocrat]

134. It contributes to the attitude that making fun of gays is okay.

I didn't see the ad. I only realized it was an issue after america blog posted about it. BUT, and this is a huge BUT, my GLBT friends think it is homophobic. I have to defer to them.

Any ad, comment, film, tv show that shows gays in a manner which is meant to demean them is wrong.

Maybe at some point when the GLBT community has the same rights as the rest of us, these conversations will be unnecessary.

If a black friend of mine tells me he feels something is racist, I have to acknowledge that, because I'm not black.

See what I mean?

It's not the candy bar, but you knew that. It's the pervasive attitude that it's okay to poke fun at gay folks.

[LostinVA]

147. Great post, Midlo -- thanks

[npincus]

42. I thought it was a riot

and in my opinion, mocked the homophobic reaction...a satiric poke at the fragile male sexual identity, if you will. Then again, I loved 'Borat', another fine satire of our dopey American culture.

[Bluebear]

43. It was extremely offensive.

And through the Human Rights Campaign, the ad and the future airing of it was taken down. Hope you taped it.

[HuffleClaw]

52. i concur

the players reactions especially. damn funny. the ads were sooo over the top, i don't know why anyone would take them seriously. the people being made fun of were the 'fragile males' you mention, not gay people.

[Bluebear]

53. I give up.

[LostinVA]

54. Hey, those Amos 'n Andy shows were a hoot too, Bluebear

I mean, they were so over the top, who the hell could take the blatant racism seriously? Just those silly sensitive blacks.

[npincus]

58. The ad was aimed straight at the testosterone-fest that

is the Superbowl. It was mocking homophobia, clearly. Curious: the bitchers-and-moaners about this ad are silent on the GoDaddy.com's rather 'sexist' take on women and their contribution to the workplace ('marketing department'). Where are the PC Police and finger-waggers on this one? Mocking attractive women is an acceptable prejudice?

Well, this tells you one man's satire is another's slap in the face. Take all the ads down, then. Screw the First Amendment.

I give up.

[William Bloode]

55. I thought it was funnny as well.

But then again i am a homophobe, so what do i know?

[Beelzebud]

56. Hell it's not like we have illegal wars, or a wimpy majority to worry about.

Let's talk about a fucking Super Bowl ad for days on end.

[Darkhawk32]

97. It's pathetic, isn't it? n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

57. Dude, you really let me down with this thread.

*sigh*

[Darkhawk32]

59. Liberals really need to learn how to pick their battles.

All this gnashing of the teeth over something so trivial, so meaningless, makes the other messages they portray seem meaningless and trivial, plus quite frankly, it makes liberals look loony.

Sorry.

[LostinVA]

61. This is NOT "trivial, so meaningless... makes liberals look loony"

It's called institutionalized discrimination, and leads DIRECTLY to having my civil rights denied.

[Darkhawk32]

63. I'm sorry you feel that way. But if every commercial that could've possibly offend somebody,

there'd be no commercials on TV, because every commercial practically could "offend" somebody.

You're not helping matters.

[LostinVA]

73. YOU'RE not helping matters

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem, eh?

HOW DARE YOU TELL ME WHAT SHOULD OFFEND ME, ND WHAT MY REACTION SHOULD BE.

And, I very much doubt you're sorry about it.

[Darkhawk32]

81. Stop wallowing in self-pity. It's really pathetic. n/t

[sniffa]

309. oh you did not just say that

*makes more notes in the super secret gay poLice dossier*

have fun waLLowing in your own fiLth.

[LostinVA]

316. I love being a pathetic lesbian, with a tres hot, smart, and funny GF

And a good sense of self... and a nice life....

[Roland99]

72. Say WHAT?! Your "civil rights" have been denied by *this ad*?!?!

:wtf:

So, you're telling me this ad is going to prevent you from:

1) Getting a job
2) Buying a home
3) Having a fair trial
4) Owning a gun
5) Getting an education
etc.


Name for us the civil rights you have been denied by this *TV COMMERCIAL*

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

86. These ads are institutionalized homophobia, which leads to dehumanizing groups of people.

THAT is what results in rights being denied.

Oh, and gays don't have the right to get married, can be discriminated against in housing in many states, and this particular poster WAS FIRED FOR BEING GAY.

So, I think you don't know too much about rights being denied.

[Roland99]

90. So, that ad got the poster fired, eh? Interesting. Oh wait....it didn't!

And "institutionalized homophobia"

Jeez...political correctness run amok here.

The ad was MOCKING those two guys.


Doesn't anyone get it?!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

I never said that ad got her fired. You are twisting my words and poorly at that.

The ad was offensive. Even if you don't understand why it was offensive, a reasonable person would knock it off. Instead, you choose to mock further. Nice.

And yes, institutionalized homophobia is real. Just like institutionalized racism is real. However, I'm not surprised that a straight, white male would be oblivious to it.

[Roland99]

98. Oh, yeah, because straight white males have NO CLUE as to what goes on in the world

:eyes:


Go on with your feigned indignation.

I'll go on seeing this ad for what it was: humorous.



BTW, I suppose you never go to any comedy clubs. OMG! I bet your head would explode!

[Darkhawk32]

104. LMAO! n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

105. Straight, white male don't get to frame what other groups get to find offensive.

I don't attempt to frame what black people are allowed to find offensive, because I'm not black. If a black person is offended by something, I take their word for it.

Why do YOU get to frame what I find offensive?

Oh, and I do go to comedy clubs, and no, my head doesn't explode.

[Roland99]

108. So, if a comedian mocks a gay person (a rather common bit in comedy) you dont' get upset?

But you're pissed as hell at this commercial?



Does the word hypocrite ring any bells?

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

124. Well, I couldn't exactly respond with reason, since there wasn't any to respond to.

Nice touch, though calling me a right-winger. I do love my gas-guzzling SUV.

Of course, my GF is a democratic socialist, so she'd never date a real right-winger.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Roland99]

129. How about you answer the question: >>>>>>>>

When a comedian at a comedy club mocks gay people, do you laugh or do you get up, throw something at the comedian and yell some choice words as you storm out?


Either or.


Which is it?

[Darkhawk32]

181. He won't answer. n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

201. Sorry, I don't have a penis. Actually, I'm not sorry.

[Name removed]

202. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

206. "Both?" Nice slam there, boyo.

You don't have a right to tell me what to answer or to insinuate what my response would be.

BTW, I am very much female. Quite a few people on this thread have met me in real life and can assure you that I am pretty much a girly girl.

[Darkhawk32]

Nice, duh-version. Answer the question.

[Roland99]

230. Still waiting on that answer to the question. Afraid to answer it, eh?

[LostinVA]

210. Two things:

1.) Read some "Miss Manners." There;'s a good boy.

2.) I can assure you that Haruka is 100% woman, and hotter, smarter, and witter than any woman YOU'LL ever have the pleasure of dating. And, don't think your nasty little TG slam went unnoticed.

Get a frigging life and grow the fuck up.

edited for typo

[ThomCat]

216. He's SO jealous.

His hand isn't nearly as hot at Haruka. :P

[LostinVA]

217. And, his hand can't snog like her, either

And neither can the Fleshlight.

[Darkhawk32]

219. I don't care what she is. That's the point. TG slam? OMFG! You guys are funny.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

222. Spin it how you want. That was a TG slam.

And yes, we are funny.

[LostinVA]

229. Yup, nothing more or less than a TG slam -- now Brandon Teena, et al

are being slammed.

And yeah, we ARE tres funny.

[ThomCat]

227. That's exactly what it is.

When a straight guy feels threatend, attack the person's apparent gender. x(

[Darkhawk32]

236. I did say "I don't care...", the gender makes no difference to me.

Does it make a difference to you that much? Wow, feeling uncomfortable about something? That's your own fault.

[ThomCat]

240. If it didn't make any difference then you wouldn't have

made such a ridiculous post trying to make an issue of it.

[Name removed]

242. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ThomCat]

245. "You people"

:rofl:

Strike 3. Yer Out!

[Darkhawk32]

249. You people... like more than one? You guys are truly hyper-sensitive.

[ThomCat]

251. And you're an insensitive, boorish bigot.

I only get angry when I see people mocking entire classes of people. You like to mock and belitting entire classes of people. I think I'm in the better position.

[Darkhawk32]

254. Oh please. And you see boogeymen everywhere.

[ThomCat]

257. Not at all.

Out of all of DU I only see a relatively small number of people actively standing up for white men's right to mock gay people. You're one of them.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ThomCat]

275. Okay, you asked for it.

You described our concern as "All this gnashing of the teeth over something so trivial"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=135435&mesg_id=136744

You described our concern as "wallowing in self pity"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=135435&mesg_id=136914

When you can't hold your own in an actual discussion you resort to questioning someone's apparent gender. An obvious slur that straight boys often use and then insist means nothing.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=135435&mesg_id=137854

You've said that this is not one of those times when people have a right to be offended. As if we need your permission.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=135435&mesg_id=136855

You think that people NEED to laugh at other people (and themselves, you add as a disclaimer)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=135435&mesg_id=136892

You insulted our concerns as a "lunatic rant," so if challenging this bigotry is a lunatic rant then obviously you support the bigotry.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=135435&mesg_id=136872

Here, you condescent to tell us how to fight for our civil rights. Yet again a straight white boy tells the minority people what they need to do. And in your expert opinion bigoted humor isn't important.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=135435&mesg_id=137082


How's that? And that's just on this thread.

[Darkhawk32]

279. You can link all you want to, but the quotes don't state what you want people to think it states.

Sorry.

[ThomCat]

287. LOL

:rofl:

You keep telling yourself that. But the responses (from other people too, not just me)indicate otherwise.

[Name removed]

289. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ThomCat]

294. Last refuge for the someone with nothing intelligent to say.

Accuse other people of lying and contribute absolutely nothing of substance.

:rofl:

[Darkhawk32]

296. Just like taking quotes and pooling them together to portray a false argument.

Not impressed, sparky.

[ThomCat]

301. Like pooling your quotes together to portray

exactly what you said, in context.

:rofl:

[ThomCat]

215. Now you go getting truly offensive and hostile.

Why the gender comment? We never see anyone question the gender of straight people. It's a classic homophobic slur.

And for the record, I'll state that I don't laugh at homophobic jokes in comedy clubs. I used to spend quite a bit of time in commedy clubs, and I don't laugh at bigotry.

Just because some people laugh at bigotry doesn't make it right.

[LeftyMom]

327. No, you're choosing to be offensive. (and a lesson in remedial pronouns)

You just did it again. He/she/both is only an acceptable option when covering your bases with a hypothetical person or persons (for example "He/she/both will complete the lab for the class and then the group will answer the questions on page 53.")

As Haruka is not hypothetical and is female, the word you're looking for is she. For males, you want he. With transpeople, you use their preference.

Bottom line, you're choosing to be offensive. Actually, that's the most flattering option, the least flattering option is that you're extremely ignorant of gender and sexuality issues and unwilling to learn, so saying that you're choosing to cause offense is giving the benefit of the doubt.

[foreigncorrespondent]

248. Let me answer this question!

Quite frankly I don't lower myself to go see some dip shit comedian who makes a living out of makng a mockery out of gay people. In fact I won't lower myself to go see a comedian who makes a mockery out of any minority group. I don't find things like that funny at all.

[Roland99]

268. Oh, so you know in advance EVERY bit a comedian is going to perform on-stage?

Nice you meet you, Miss Chloe.

[Darkhawk32]

276. They prescreen the script, don't you know?

[ThomCat]

292. Nice straw man.

But I know for a fact that back when I used to hang out in comedy clubs we knew the general types of routines that each comedian was known for.

And when a comedian would get booked who wasn known to be gay and had a gay-positive routine a lot of GLBT people would show up to watch. So clearly people know what they're likely to see.

But you keep up that ridiculous nitpicking in an effort to prop yourself up. Maybe that'll work for you.

[Roland99]

221. Still waiting on that answer to the question. Afraid to answer it, eh?

Gee, I wonder why?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

228. I don't laugh at homophobia.

That's your answer.

[Roland99]

256. No, it's not an answer. Answer my question >>>>>>>>

When you are at a comedy club and the comedian makes fun of a gay person (perhaps talking with a lisp, prancing about on stage, etc.), do you laugh?

If not, do you voice your disapproval by yelling out choice words?

If not that, do you voice your disapproval by leaving and boycotting that comedy club in the future?

Or, as I suspect, do you sit there and not do a damned thing?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

269. I don't go to see homophobic comedians.

[Roland99]

286. And, yet again, you FAILED to answer the question. BRAVO!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

288. I answered it. You just didn't like the answer.

[Darkhawk32]

291. answer the question.

[ThomCat]

304. A second straight boy

DEMANDING that a lesbian give the answer YOU want to hear. :eyes:

She's answer the question quite coherently. Perhaps your grasp of the language isn't so good?

[Roland99]

313. Let's try this AGAIN >>>>>>>

When you are at a comedy club and the comedian makes fun of a gay person (perhaps talking with a lisp, prancing about on stage, etc.), do you laugh?

If not, do you voice your disapproval by yelling out choice words?

If not that, do you voice your disapproval by leaving and boycotting that comedy club in the future?

Or, as I suspect, do you sit there and not do a damned thing?

[ThomCat]

318. I've already answered.

I don't laugh at bigoted jokes. And on the occassions where I've had a chance to say something (when called on by the comedian as part of the act) I have said something.

I have commented on bigoted comedians in comment cards at the comedy clubs. And I've refused to ever see those particular comedians again.

How many times do you need answers?

[ThomCat]

297. Who the hell are you to make demands.

It's not enough that you MUST get answers. But you MUST get the answers you want?

Get a damned life.

[ThomCat]

231. Because it's a stupid straw man.

Is that the best you can do?

[Roland99]

264. No, it's not. It's calling out someone's hypocritical stance

If the same level of indignation is not displayed when gays are DIRECTLY mocked, then this current round of outrage is the epitome of hypocrisy.

[Name removed]

265. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

271. have you ever even READ the DU rules?

You've broken them left and right, including in this post: you can't call out a DU, you can't call a DUer a liar, and you can't call names.

Plus, he's Jewish. Call him a Nazi Jew Fag Liar -- that'll cover all the bases.

Go play somewhere else. You do NOT belong here if you can post such shit.

[Darkhawk32]

274. When did I call him a Nazi? Oh please, dozens in this thread have broken DU rules.

Not just me. You too.

[Midlodemocrat]

299. Not me. Not once.

[ThomCat]

277. No, I just call a bigot a bigot.

[Darkhawk32]

280. You're one too then. If not agreeing with someone constitutes bigotry.

You bigot!

[ThomCat]

298. Retreat into absurdity.

:rofl:

You're just conceding that you're in over your head and have nothing more to say.

[ThomCat]

282. Thank you oh wise straight man for telling us lowly gays

what's what. We lowly gay people aren't wise enough to know homophobia when we hear it. :eyes:

1. We've posted that we don't find homophobic humor funny regardless of who or where.

2. We can choose to avoid comedy clubs and comedians who use homophobic humor, and we do. But a superbowl ad goes out to the entire nation and has a hell of a lot more impact.

[Roland99]

290. Cry me a river. Build a bridge. Get over it.

Until ANY of you self-declared homosexuals posting on this thread will HONESTLY answer my direct question posted above, you're nothing but hypocritical hot air.

[ThomCat]

305. We have, and you just don't like the answer.

But you don't have any right to the specific answer you want, any more than you have any right to redefine what is or is not bigotry.

It's pure ego (and Straight Male sense of privilage) that makes you think you have some right to insist that we give you the specific answer you want.
:eyes:

[Roland99]

314. "We"????

:rofl:

[ThomCat]

322. Yes, "we."

I've answered you twice, and Haruka has answered you, and several other people have made comments that effectively answer you. Last time I checked, multiple people would be "we."

[LostinVA]

321. Star Trek:TNG isn't on until 4:00, Thom

[ThomCat]

323. Ah, so he has lots of free time on his hands.

gotcha! :)

[Roland99]

128. So, you're saying you don't play with yourself. Is that it?

:eyes:

[Maven]

119. Frankly, if you found this bland, lowest-common-denominator type

of humor, directed at 18-24 y/o's "funny," I really doubt your sense of humor is that highly developed.

[Roland99]

132. Oh look, even more thinly veiled insults! YIPPEEE!!

[ThomCat]

232. As opposed to your sophisiticated posts

that don't in any way support bigotry? :eyes:

[Roland99]

262. Quote my posts where I support bigotry. Go ahead. I'm merely pointing out that

the ad aired on TV was not about bigotry, other than to mock bigots themselves! I saw it as making fun of the "redneck" mentality so if anyone should be offended it should be them!

[ThomCat]

311. Okay

Creating a straw man argument to imply that unless that specific ad has the specific effect of getting someone fired then it isn't bigotry. And belitting any concern about homophobia as political correctness run amok.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=135435&mesg_id=136944

Denying that mocking behavior supports bullying and discrimination. Demeaning any complaint against homophobia as just "hurt feelings."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=135435&mesg_id=136957

Denigrating someone who knows far more about fighting for civil rights than you do, as if you know better than we do how to fight for civil rights. Accussing us of making ourselves victims (which conveniently absolves the straight people who think it's funny to mock gayness).
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=135435&mesg_id=138000

How's that?

[bettyellen]

247. have you actually had a chance yet to see the whole campaign? the wrench joke?

or are we still at the point where we post about things where we're msissing half the picture?
i've missed you since you heard about the wrench part? did you track it down? did you think it was hilarious?

[Beelzebud]

64. If you're never offended you aren't living in a free society.

[Darkhawk32]

67. I agree people have a "right" to be offended, but this is not such a time. IMHO. n/t

[Beelzebud]

71. I should have been clear. I agree with you.

My point was that if you are never offended, things have been restricted and sanitized to the point that you are no longer in a free society.

[Darkhawk32]

77. People need to laugh at others and also at themselves. Y'know? n/t

[Maven]

109. Good, why don't you start laughing at yourself.

Something REALLY personal about yourself. Here. For all of us to see.

[ThomCat]

237. Exactly. It's always the straight white guys

who assume they have a right to mock everyone else. And next they'll insist that they aren't homophobic bigots. :eyes:

[Katherine Brengle]

140. I concur. nt

[JackRiddler]

60. At the very least...

You are insensitive and contributing to the oppression of those who are morally superior by virtue of feeling offended by their own interpretation of what the ad showed.

And you're probably missing how the candy bar looked just like a cock being sucked, complete with veins.

[LostinVA]

62. You don't get to frame what is offensive to people

[Beelzebud]

66. Should we ban anything deemed offensive by some?

[ThomCat]

68. Should ban people from expressing our views

about what is clearly and obviously homophobic? Or are only homophobic straight boys allowed to post their views?
:eyes:

[Beelzebud]

80. It's a serious question. Should we ban material deemed offensive?

I'm not telling you not to post about this. I'm trying to ask a question.

Don't jump the gun and assume i'm some homophobic boy.

Where do you draw the line? If I'm offended by something no one else is, should society bend to my will?

Many people disagree with you that this was "obviously" homophobic. I've seen a few homosexuals here at DU say they found it funny.

[ThomCat]

93. I'm serious too.

Nobody but you is talking about banning anything. We're just asking people to recognize that mocking gayness (or perceived gayness) is homophobic.

Yes, I'm sure you can find a few people who will say almost anything. That's such a wonderful reason to discount all the many GLBT people who have posted that the commercial was clearly homophobic. And I'm sure you could find someone who's black to insist that blackface isn't racist too.
:eyes:

Yes, the exceptions are much more valid than the general concensus among GLBT people, especially because that exeption supports your view. And we all know that your view is all that's important.
:eyes:

[Beelzebud]

100. Be outraged all you want. Personally the superbowl and all of its commercials are offensive

to me. But oh well.

I must no longer be a good liberal because I found a few GLBT people here at DU that are obvious faking their sexuality just to score points for the right-wing.

Oh and by the way. I doubt I could find anyone who is black that would say blackface isn't racist. However there IS a few people in these outrage threads, claiming to be gay, who are not offended at all.

[JackRiddler]

123. Nor do you

And lack of logic is very offensive to me.

[ThomCat]

255. Your lack of logic is astounding for someone who

claims that lack of logic is offensive to you.

She's part of the GLBT community. (Psst, she's a Lesbian.) And she's part of our civil rights struggle. She's exactly the type of person who gets to frame the debate. If we can't state what we find offensive then who can? Straight white guys like you?

Yeah, we are going to let straight white guys decide what's homophobic and what's not. Right. :eyes:

That would be like letting the klan define what's racist.

[LostinVA]

260. Hmmm... I think I'll let Fred Phelps or Falwell frame the debate

NOT.

[LeftyMom]

74. Dr Freud to the white courtesy phone please.

Dr Freud, please pick up the white courtesy phone.

[Darkhawk32]

79. I thought that was Prime Minister Botha. LOL n/t

[JackRiddler]

Speaking. How can I help you?

[JackRiddler]

88. (oops dupe) nt

[ThomCat]

84. Funny, it's the people who insist it's just funny

who get all self righteous and defensive insisting that the commercial doesn't mean anything.

It's funny so that many straight boys insist on telling all of GLBT people that mocking gayness isn't homophobia. Just like lots of white people have historically loved to tell black people that mocking blackness isn't racism.

But you're absolutely right, we should let clueless straight people define what is or isn't offensive to gay people.
:eyes:

[Roland99]

65. I hear ya. It's like the right calling someone a bigot who's intolerant of intolerance.

This is such a huge manufactured "issue"

[Darkhawk32]

70. I'm half-Irish and half-Italian. If I went into a lunatic rant every time I see ....

a leprechaun or mafia reference on TV, I'd have slit my wrists by now.

[LeftyMom]

87. But you're no longer a second class citizen for being Irish or Italian

If you still had NINA ads all over the employment section, you might feel differently.

[Darkhawk32]

91. I didn't know there was a gay/straight box on a job application or resume? Wow. n/t

[LeftyMom]

96. Yeah, because nobody ever loses out on a job or gets fired for being gay.

Heck, in a lot of places it's legal. You can tell somebody "I'm letting you go 'cause ya got the gay, sinner" and they can't do shit.

[LostinVA]

103. That happened to me, and that was the reason why

Although, it's not what they told corporate, as I found out much later.

And, it was legal under Federal, State, and company rules and regs.

[Darkhawk32]

106. I've been fired for being overweight and having an Italian last name.

Like you, I found out way later. You don't have a corner on discrimination.

[Midlodemocrat]

115. Oh, come on.

Did being overweight or having an Italian last name prevent you from getting married? From sharing your insurance with your wife/husband?

It's not the same.

[Darkhawk32]

120. Well, I do think that's wrong, but a Snickers commercial didn't do that to you.

Please learn to pick your battles. Getting all whacked-out over a TV ad isn't going to win anybody over. It's going to make you look loony.

If the ad offended you, I can't help that. Perhaps the gay community could raise money for a pro-gay commercial for the Super Bowl next year?

Wouldn't that be a more effective answer than stomping around being offended?

[Midlodemocrat]

137. LOL. I'm not gay.

But if my gay friends tell me that it is homophobic, I'm going to defer to them. In much the same way that I would if my black friends tell me something is racist.

Get it?

And, last time I looked, I wasn't loony. And don't tell me which battles to pick. The GLBT community has been thrown under the bus by homophobes long enough. It's time for people in this party to support them, not make fun of them.

[JackRiddler]

131. In this culture?

Being overweight is a serious handicap to finding marriage partners. I understand you're talking about the legal status of marriage for same-sex couples, which isn't the same. But overweight (often an inherited condition) IS discriminated against - and is the target of far many more attacks on television than any other quality a person can have. By far - fat, especially fat and female, is constantly made fun of.

[Midlodemocrat]

138. Tell you what. Pick up the society page of your paper this Sunday.

Check out the wedding photos and then tell me that it is a serious impediment to marriage.

Cause it sure ain't here.

[JackRiddler]

169. Sorry my paper is the Times

And rich people are notoriously thin.

[Midlodemocrat]

223. LOL. Well, my wedding announcement was in the NYT and I sure wasn't rich.

[bicentennial_baby]

172. Wow...Do fat people get beaten and left for dead

simply for being fat? No? I didn't think so.

[Darkhawk32]

177. They don't? Wow, what world are you living in?

[JackRiddler]

187. Apparently the world of the thin!

Fat is the acceptable target in polite society, and fat people never get harrassed and beaten and sometimes killed for being fat, didn't you know?

[bicentennial_baby]

197. I have seriously NEVER heard of that

Give me some proof. Solid.

[bicentennial_baby]

188. Um, not last time I heard...

I can't seem to remember any obese people being murdered a la Matthew Shepard style, simply for the one reason of being obese. Sure, obese people get murdered, but I have yet to hear their obesity being the reason for said murder. Have you? Honestly?

[LostinVA]

226. I think the answer to your last question is: NO

[ThomCat]

315. Oh please, who us any news article of anyone

getting targetted and beaten solely because they were overweight.

Yes, there is very serious discrimination against overweight people, but it's not like you have people living in fear of being fat-bashed. The fear of getting gay-bashed is real, frequent and widespread.

[LeftyMom]

142. That's what I was thinking of.

:(

[LostinVA]

175. It's okay

*HUGS*

You're my favorite vegan freak, you know that.

[LostinVA]

92. Bingo

[Roland99]

94. I'm a computer programmer. I guess I should be offended at shows like Beauty and the Geek.

Calling me a geek? <sniff> <sniff>

You hurt my feelings and you're denying me my civil rights!!

[Maven]

102. Is this a joke?

Honestly, are you kidding?

[Roland99]

111. Why would it be a joke? It's as valid a claim as those feigning indignation over this ad.

[Maven]

112. Absolutely disgusting.

You're now going to trivialize the civil rights movement?

[Roland99]

125. BWA HA HA HA HA HA!! This ad trivializes the civil rights movement??

OMG has this place turned into a CARTOON???

[Maven]

127. I was referring to your statement.

Equating being a "geek" with having your civil rights denied.

Should I speak slower?

[Roland99]

135. My comment re: civil rights being denied was in response to a post elsewhere in this thread

where someone claimed this ad led DIRECTLY to their civil rights being denied which is just complete and utter horseshit.

[Maven]

141. This ad in particular won't have a *direct effect* no

that's not what the poster was saying, and you know it.

But ads like these negatively contribute to social attitudes, reinforcing notions about what groups are "OK" to ridicule and how men are "expected" to act. This one was particularly shitty in that it coupled the ads themselves with sneering/disgusted football players (role models) to show the "proper reaction." And for what? To sell a fuckin candy bar?

Frankly I don't care about all that. I just won't support a company that exploits homophobia to make a buck. And there are plenty of allies here who "get it," who won't either. I posted the original thread KNOWING that plenty of people who didn't "get it" would give hell to the people who did, but that's the price of posting on DU nowadays.

[Darkhawk32]

146. Great way to isolate yourselves.

There are millions of people that 1) want gays to have equal rights with every aspect of society and 2) didn't find the commercial offensive or at the very least a big deal.

And in your response, you called those that agreed with you "allies" and I suppose the millions that feel like I do are the "enemy". Great way to garner favor with those millions.

I guess I'm your "enemy" now. :eyes:

[bettyellen]

152. yes, YOU are the victim here, enjoy your status, take your marbles and go home...

knowing everyone hates poor you. :cry:

what is this poor me thing? talks about acting oversensitive, or not playing well with others...LOL.

[Darkhawk32]

156. Well, in this thread, people that didn't get absolutely 100% outraged with this commercial...

have been called homophobes and people that wish harm and discrimination against gay people.

But please, keep going, you're making excellent progress with your movement with all this. :eyes:

[bettyellen]

160. LOL, gosh aren't you overstating things a bit, in your outrage ???

and to be honest, i have to wonder what the fuck you think you have to be outraged against in the first place?

why defend the wrench beating so completely?

[Maven]

167. Hyperbolic. If you're an ally, act like it.

It has nothing to do with whether you saw the ad the way we did, or if you thought it was a big deal. That's fine.

It has to do with spending all day telling gay people what they do and don't have the right to be offended about when many gay DUers and three gay rights organizations have said they find the ad to be homophobic and irresponsible, as though you, as a straight person, are better equipped to recognize homophobia. Not all homophobia is of the Fred Phelps variety.

If you didn't think the ad was particularly important, you could have chosen not to comment. If you didn't think it was offensive, you might have just said, "I don't see it that way, but if you do, OK." Etc.

In general, just be considerate.

[Darkhawk32]

176. God damnit! When in the fuck did I say you didn't have the "right" to be offended?

Huh, God Damnit! Where? Where did I fucking say you didn't have the fucking right to be fucking offended?

And now I'm a fucking homophobe? Kiss my ass! You know what?

This is a god damn forum. I have the right to express my opinion as much as you do about any god damn subject I fucking choose. Got it.

Be considerate? Bullshit, you don't want consideration, you want a subserviant attitude and for me to throw out the pity carpet over every thing that you think is offensive.

There are REAL instances of discrimination to be offended about. And my whole argument is to focus on THOSE things, not some petty fucking commercial.

[Maven]

185. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=137283&mesg_id=137283

[ThomCat]

191. Yes, you have a right to express your opinion.

And if it's homophobic, or supports homophobia then people have a right to express that too.

Deal with it, or go cry somewhere else.
:cry:

[Darkhawk32]

196. Cry? Whatever dude. n/t

[LostinVA]

213. 'Institutionalized discrimination"

That's it.

*yawn* Your "arguments" have grown tiresome.

[Roland99]

165. Keep on with your feigned indignation and extremely distorted viewpoints.

Let me know how far that gets you, mmkay?

[bettyellen]

194. you think it's feigned now that you actually know the full story- the wrech part

[Roland99]

261. From what I understand, it's two friend/co-workers going off on each other with cartoon violence

And this is being compared to the Matthew Shepard case?


Oh, FFS!!

:eyes:

[bettyellen]

272. a mistaken kiss, followed by assault with a blunt, deadly object. yes, there ARE similarities

whether you feel like acknowledging them is another story.
but there are major common elements.

[Roland99]

293. I hope to heck you never see a Bugs Bunny cartoon....

[bettyellen]

302. i guess you can't think of a response to my post, so you need to go all childish

this thread is starting to resemble a preschool, yet you somehow expect to have your opinion taken seriously? Do you think that's possible by the flip, uninformed BS you've put out?

[Roland99]

317. You started it! :-P

The tv ad was cartoonish!!! Fer chrissakes!!!

[bettyellen]

324. checkmate

[Midlodemocrat]

246. Actually, I think the computer is the one who should be offended.

[npincus]

99. LOL

..and this Jewish gal wants to know, how come Jewish guys on sitcoms are always paired with hot, blonde shiksas? What's the matter with Jewish women? Are we supposed to be ugly? Unsexy?

Take this, motherf*ckers!


(old pic)- tee hee

[ThomCat]

95. So how is this add making fun of bigots?

It's clearly making fun of perceived gayness.

[johnnie]

75. It seemed like it was a rip-off of that John Candy movie

What was that one? Plane Trains and Automobiles, or something like that. John Candy and Steve Martin.

[Beelzebud]

85. Exactly... But It's more fun to outraged over superbowl commercials.

Comedy is dead in the liberal movement. I can see it coming already.

[Darkhawk32]

101. It's a natural problem with some liberals. They take themselves way too seriously.

And I'm not just referring to this particular subject.

Liberals tend to isolate themselves socially (just not this subject fyi) and makes it much harder to sway political thought.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

113. if you thought it the first time. i can understand. if you read through all the threads

saw what gay people were objecting to, seen the whole campaign and still think its funny. then yes you are being stubborn about not seeing homophobia. and defensive about your position.

[LostinVA]

130. Oedipus Rex -- please look at these responses, many by your Lounge friends

See how we're getting attacked by homophobic slurs?

Get the point now? These ads help booster this type of institutionalized homophobia. They are the reasons we are having to beat off nasty., bullying, idiot attacks... and the reason why we can be fired, denied housing, and not allowed to marry the people we love.

Happy now that you thought the ads were funny and that you started the thread? Glad that you disagreed with us?

*sigh*

This is truly making me very sad.

edited for typos

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

133. Seconded.

[treestar]

151. But what's your answer? There is none but more speech.

As Jefferson said, the only antidote to free speech is more speech.

Maybe another tack needs to be taken here. The "I'm offended" version of events does not fall well on middle America any more because it has been overused. Or they can express sympathy, but that's all they can do.

Most people are not going to go out and do something violent because of this ad. Attacking them for laughing at it is only going to offend them. You're telling someone they were being mean when they didn't intend it. That makes people defensive, it doesn't turn them into avid supporters of gay rights.

Then there are people getting killed in Iraq over another prejudice, which takes precedence at the moment. There's not one thread on DU about the booing of the guy with the Muslim name.

[Darkhawk32]

153. Bingo! n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

136. Reminds me of the show All in the Family

[bettyellen]

144. the wrench part was funny?

that's what I want to hear from these guys, how hilarious the wrench part is. why are all you commercial lovers avoiding discussing that part?
i see not mention of it here...
it didn't remind you of brokeback or the matthew shepard case or boys don't cry?

perhaps if there was a history of people being attacked BECAUSE they were heterosexual, you'd get a clue.

[LostinVA]

150. Yeah, I noticed that, too

[bettyellen]

157. and MATTHEW SHEPARD , that shit was HILARIOUS too!!!

wasn't that also over a kiss? well, shit happens, right?

[Darkhawk32]

159. So you're comparing people's reaction to a Snickers commercial with Matthew Shepard? You're twisted

[bettyellen]

164. the idea of severely beating a gay man over a kiss is common to both.

how'd you miss that?

[Darkhawk32]

168. But they're not gay. n/t

[bettyellen]

171. neither was the boy shepard wanted to kiss, silly., So he took a wrench and....

but you're right, one has no similarity to the other. in denial world.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

179. "in denial world."

:spray:

[ThomCat]

325. Damn you for using facts, history and logic.

That's not fair, bringing a gun to a knife fight. :rofl:

[LostinVA]

178. Now, why the heck are you bringing in sense and facts to the debate?

[JackBeck]

238. The Matthew Shepard Foundation has denounced the ad campaign.

"THE MATTHEW SHEPARD FOUNDATION JOINS GLAAD IN CONDEMNING ANTI-GAY SNICKERS® CAMPAIGN

The Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD) and the Matthew Shepard Foundation strongly condemn elements of an ad campaign launched during the Superbowl by Snickers® that includes a Web site featuring video of NFL athletes reacting with prejudice and disgust to depictions of two men kissing."

There's nothing twisted in referring to him, in this case.

http://www.matthewshepard.org/site/PageServer

[bettyellen]

258. Of course not, it's being aware of what happened to Matthew that makes this shit seriously unfunny..

but the "twisted" person is trying to claim i called him a murderer. Now he's making jokes about shooting people.
It's very sad it comes to this name calling, violent posturing BS.
That shooting comment is a cry for help.

[LostinVA]

162. I know! Violence and drinking poison to prove you're not gay?

HILARIOUS.

[Roland99]

161. Wrench part? What wrench part? I don't remember any "wrench part" on TV

hunh?

[bettyellen]

166. that was an alternate ending, the one seriously condemned by gay activists....

you posting without actually knowing the whole story? well, that explains a bit.

[Darkhawk32]

183. I saw it. I still don't see the big deal. Two guys acting like idiots. n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

189. You know, two guys acted like idiots and then...

Matthew Shepherd was dying on a fence in Wyoming, tied up like a scarecrow.

[bettyellen]

190. if suicide and murder is idiocy to you, fine. but get over telling people they shouldn't care

if matthew was your brother, and they were idiot enough to broadcast that ad. how'd you feel sitting next to your parents watching it?
a bit different i guess? you might actually have a bit of empathy if it was about you and your own.

[Name removed]

192. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bettyellen]

198. who is this mysterious "you guys" and why do you fear and loathe them so much?

so much that you now prove you are unable to have a respectful conversation with them?
i hope you look back at this and learn something about your inability to cope with other points of view.
It's very sad, all the anger you are displaying here. There is really no reason to lash out and call names like a child, just because you are losing an argument.
It is not your right to abuse others verbally. So suck it up and leave the thread if you can't excercise self control.

[bicentennial_baby]

199. I am "you guys" obviously....

check the avatar :D

hi sweetie! :loveya:

[bettyellen]

205. book 'em, Dano!

hi sweetie!
:loveya:

[Darkhawk32]

200. Well gee, I'm being called a homophobe for not being "offended". I guess that's being respectful.

Losing what argument? That you're over-reacting to a stupid commercial?

And saying that if I don't express as much hatred and anger towards a tv commercial as you do, I'm the same as the people who killed Matthew Shepard. That goes beyond respectful conversation. You're expressing major leaps in logic. And quite frankly, you sound loony.

[bettyellen]

204. see how you are reaching for the victim status? putting words in my mouth?

as i said before, perhaps you ought to think on why you can't have an HONEST and REASONED conversation about this.
That would exclude making shit up and calling names, which is pretty much what your posts boil down to, and the reason I can't even respond.
Aside from hyperbole, BS excuses and anger, there's just nothing there.

I am really fucking sorry you can't express your self better kid, you obviously you need to feel yourself the victim in all this somehow.
Grow up, get help, learn to watch your mouth. and learn respect for others. You got a lot of growing to do, Goodbye!

[Darkhawk32]

208. Express myself better? You mean, always agree with you. I'm not a victim, but I think....

you're making yourself one. I'm sorry Bettyellen, you don't have the maturity to discuss matters with any sort of decorum.

I've never express myself the victim in any of this, but the fact that you did do what I said you did, really hurts your cause.

It's too bad that your noble cause is cursed with the likes of you in it. If you want equal justice and rights for gays, stay out of the way. Your involvement only hurts your cause.

[bettyellen]

209. i meant your lies and wound licking are both childish bullshit., so C ya......

[Darkhawk32]

211. Bye, little Miss Pitty Party.

[Roland99]

259. I figured the topic was about the Super Bowl ad. The one shown on TV.

There was NOTHING homophobic about that one at all.

And, in every post to which I've replied or where someone has replied to me there has been NO mention of this "wrench part".

[bettyellen]

283. the OP says ads (plural) ... and the wrench part has been in EVERY link as well as every thread

and never did i hear of anyone describe it as cartoon violence. honestly, what does that even mean? inhearantly funny, not really violent?

answer me this: how is swinging a wrench not violent? how is the reason it was done not homophobic?

maybe yosemite Sam should go shoot some gays so you all can laugh at that? It has been suggested on this thread by others, you know.
Hope you're all proud of that!

[Roland99]

300. Until this sub-thread I never saw anything about a wrench.

And I haven't seen any other threads than this one as someone sent me a link to this to see all the fuss.

As for hitting someone with a wrench, if you can't see that someone would put that on TV as a joke, as a lampoon, as mimicing cartoon violence then I truly do pity you.

Some very damn thin skins around here.

Just more proof that Political Correctness is the bane of the left.


There are REAL things to be outraged about there and this is by far not one of them.

[bettyellen]

308. this maybe for YOU nothing to be bothered by fine.... but the outrage i think

comes from people like yourself who claim to be in a position to declare what is, or isn't outrageous. Who appointed you?
It's not surprising to me that you made this declaration before even finding out what the whole issue was. And it was actually very predictable that you chose to stick to your guns and make excuses for something you didn't not even see. I'm sure you can't even own up to how your whole tude in this matter could be construed as a bit bossy as well as willfully lacking in empathy.
Must be great to feel like you can make these decisions, completely uninformed, for everyone! LOL.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

173. Exactly.

Thank you.

Good post.

[bettyellen]

182. i heard wrench, i thought of matthew right away.....

at least they had the sense not to broadcast that piece of shit.
i love the hair splitting some of these avowed heteros get into,"but but but they weren't gay! it's poor heteros getting the wrench"
you gotta watch them. LOL, they'll do anything to play the victim, these white men. they enjoy it! LOL.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

184. It's amazing, isn't it?

A poster above said that he was "aware of the world," so he could tell minorities what was offensive to them. Funny thing is, he didn't seem too aware.

[bettyellen]

214. LOL, was that the poster who hadn't even seen or heard of the whole campaing, yet

defends it with all his might? Lot of that going on here.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

218. Yeah, it was one of them.

Of course, I've also been called a possible hermaprodite or transgendered person futher up in this thread, so all sorts of crazy ass shit is being said around here.

[Darkhawk32]

220. No, you're just too busy playing victim.

[bettyellen]

234. on the one hand i think the childish name calling has got to stop.....

on the other, i feel i should bookmark this for next time i hear how grateful gays and women ought to be for the totally supportive environment we have here. I would say however, from the caliber of discussion, we have a bunch of HS boys here today.
Obviously, no child was left behind in the making of this thread.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

243. Yes, the children truly have been left behind.

Quite sad.

[Roland99]

225. Trying to call me out anonymously, eh? How brave of you. And quote where I said that.

S'il vous plait.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

233. I'm braver than you could ever hope to be.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=135435&mesg_id=136978

[Roland99]

253. AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

[treestar]

155. What you're missing is reading literature of the left

Which is OK, we all get to choose our experiences.

I happen to have read a great deal of literature of the far, far left and there are often theories to the effect that all men are rapists deep down, all whites are racist deep down and that all heterosexuals are homophobes deep down, no matter how often they express sympathy or support the goals of the various oppressed groups and minorities.

I suppose it's a good sign that it's coming up again, in that, since 911, the far right has had such sway that these sorts of opinions have not gotten much press or consideration. We've all had our basic human and constitutional rights attacked and been struggling with issues like Gitmo and the claim any one of us can instantly be labeled an enemy combatant by an executive claiming he is the Decider and has almost royal powers.

[bicentennial_baby]

163. You're missing a whole bunch, and frankly,

I'm really disappointed in you. I say this as your friend.

[leftofthedial]

186. You evil, evil, nasty person!

How could you even utter that, that, that "S-word" here?

I didn't see the commercials. I was loading in for a post-game gig.

But I do find it utterly absurd that we have become so polarized over issues like this.

[LostinVA]

239. Over institutionalized bigotry? And being told we have NO RIGHT to be offended?

[leftofthedial]

244. when did I say you have no right to be offended?

:shrug:

I'm not sure what "institutionalized bigotry" is.

[LostinVA]

250. No one is being polarized over a commercial

But over having people tell us we have no right to be offended. Which is how I also read your post, re: the polarization comment.

[Darkhawk32]

252. Not one person has said they didn't have the right to be offended. NOT ONE!

Some people just weren't offended.

[leftofthedial]

273. if you see something that's not funny don't laugh

if you believe a product or its ads are offensive, don't buy it and complain to the manufacturer.

I have no problem with your "right" to be offended. The world is a complex place in which we all get slighted, attacked, discriminated against and offended at one time or another. Even us straight white males, believe it or not. I don't think anyone here at DU (discounting a few RW and FR trolls) bears malice toward homosexuals or supports discrimination against them. We're all on the same side. I think there may be differences in priorities and variations in individual senses of humor.

I just wish we, the people, especially the progressive people, weren't so easy to polarize. The wealthy class and their minions are amazingly adept at using wedge issues to manipulate and distract us. They also have been adept at ensuring that those wedge issues persist. It's not that I believe the issue of homosexual rights is unimportant or resolved. It's that I see it being used by our enemies for their purposes. The argument here does little to resolve the underlying problems and in fact, may make things worse.

[LostinVA]

278. Whatever -- thanks for your Progressive support

And, if you really believe that, then you sure as hell really don't read DU.

[jberryhill]

195. My Teen Sons' Reactions

I didn't see the ad, as I think watching the Super Bowl OR the ads is a complete waste of time.

My sons 13 and 16 saw it, and described it to me. Their impression was that the ad poked fun at guys who are uncomfortable about homosexuality and to poke fun at the idea that "doing something manly" equates to doing something self-destructive.

So if the idea was to promote homophobia, it sure backfired on at least two test subjects.

I don't understand why disagreeing on the impression made by the commercial is so contentious. I can surely see how someone could see it differently. It's pretty subjective. After all, there are those who believe that Stephen Colbert is a right winger.

Like anything that is largely subjective, what one sees in this whole mess is only going to confirm what one thought on the way in.

[Darkhawk32]

203. Careful now, your sons will be called homophobes and the same as those who killed Matthew Shepard.

[bettyellen]

207. the ad RECALLS the murder. no one said idiots who enjoy it are like murderers but if

you need to make up total lies in order to claim victim status for yourself, go right ahead.

although keep the irony in mind next time you go on to make fun of those who "want to be victims" that you did some serious gymnastics right here in order to claim that status for yourself. oh booo hoo, poor you, so misunderstood.

[Name removed]

212. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

263. You know, when that's all you have to say

Everyone knows you're grasping at nonexistent straws.

[Darkhawk32]

266. Do you really think that the writers of that case were thinking of Matthew Shepard

when they wrote that commercial? Puhlease, they're in a GARAGE. If they were in their dining room and then pulled out a wrench, then that's another discussion which I would tend to be more offended. Frankly, I don't think 99.99999% of the viewers even thought of Matthew Shepard when the guy pulled out a wrench. But people would've wondered about that wrench if the scene was in a different setting.

As far as any Shepard reference, I think that was 100% accidental.

[Roland99]

267. No one I've spoken to in-person who saw the ad on TV even remotely saw it as homophobic

men and women alike.

[LostinVA]

281. Where the hell are the mods?

Personal attacks, craziness, calling Jewish posters Nazis, etc.

This is worse than after the NJ decision came down. To quote someone close to me, "At least the phobes then weren't personally attacking like this, they were just phobee..."

And people on this thread saying how supportive DU is to GBLTers, and to get over it.

[Name removed]

284. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Darkhawk32]

285. When was someone called a Nazi? Wow.

[johnnie]

306. Well, there are only about 5 people doing the majority of discussion

I don't think that the few people who have posted 95% of the posts on here are typical of DU. That goes for both sides of the issue.

[NaturalHigh]

303. According to many here, you hit it right on the head.

Damn it, you are never, ever allowed to just enjoy something without looking for a deeper meaning. Don't you know that you are supposed to be pissed off all the time? Moral indignation is the phrase for the day!

[Hobarticus]

307. What the hell is going on here?!?

All this angst over a commericial?

It's a goddamned commercial. People can disagree over it, but how did this get twisted into opposing gay rights?

Then I read some nonsense that all men are rapists, all straights are homophobic, all whites are racist...WOW.

Is it any wonder no one takes progressive causes seriously?!?

We're tearing ourselves up over a commericial. Goddamit, get it together!

[LostinVA]

310. We do have it together -=- thanks for your support

If you actually read our responses on this thread, and THAT'S what you came away with.... oh fucking brother.

And hey -- minstrels shows were just good family entertainment -- so what???

[mnhtnbb]

326. I thought it was kind of bizarre, myself. Who would identify with it?

It was cartoonish--like animals slurping the same piece of spaghetti from opposite ends. When would anybody ever start chewing on a candy bar in another person's mouth?

[Moderator]

328. locking

at the request of the author.