We as individuals are complicit in the Iraqi War as long as we don't stand up and keep demanding

[madokie]

the removal from office of these two war criminals, bush* and cheney* looks to me like.

I hit the post button too fast so I would like to add: but aren't we to some degree somewhat responsible for what goes on with our leaders, what they do

[bdamomma]

1. yes, we are responsible, our so called leaders in DC

are not leaders they are our Servants, they are there in those positions to serve the American people, we need to make them afraid of us, not the other way around.

[madokie]

2. thats what I think too

I know I sound like a broken record but the Iraqi did nothing to deserve any of this, not one iota of a thing

[Atman]

3. No, we should sit quietly, because they might get mad at us if we complain.

I'll just sit and wait. I wouldn't want the 25% of the public who still likes Bush to get miffed or anything. No, no, no, be good little campers and sit on your hands until 2009 and let George walk home with his head held high and all sorts of Constitution-busting precedents codified.

I hope I don't need this...




:sarcasm:

.

[madokie]

5. you don't

its the precedence that they're setting that we need to stop, if for nothing else for that reason alone. I don't give two shits if there is only a week left, lets impeach the bastards

[Atman]

7. Hear hear!

:applause:

.

[madokie]

8. ;-)

I want to see pictures of this with bush*/cheney* in the photo

[lonestarnot]

15. I don't give a crap if there is only two days left in the term! IMPEACH

[madokie]

19. laws are predicated

I'm not sure if this is proper use, sorry

[lonestarnot]

21. Doesn't change my mind.

[madokie]

23. what I mean is we are setting the precedence for this thing to happen again

giving it legitimacy. we must impeach for that reason alone if not for anything else

splchk

[Atman]

40. You just didn't finish the sentence...

Laws are predicated...on what? That's the point. Laws are based on something, often/usually precedent. If we allow these precedents to be set, doing nothing codifies them into law.

So, you weren't really using it wrong, you just didn't finish.


Predicate
verb. Ex; "Our campaign is predicated on the assumption that people want affordable health care."
BASE be dependent, found, establish, rest, ground, premise.


They'll be a pop quiz next week.

.

[madokie]

42. well I had a gut feeling there was something wrong with all that but I just didn't know

for sure, :rofl:

[The2ndWheel]

4. We've been involved, either directly or indirectly

in some type of military action somewhere on this ball of rock at least once every decade as far back as you could remember.

How is that going to change if we stand up and impeach those two specifically? If we all would stop paying our taxes, then you might get something done. If we all would stop going to work, then you might get something done. That would take sacrifice and risk though. You might miss a meal. You might not be able to go to a doctor. Your kid might not be able to go to class. If we just impeach these two jackasses, there will be another jackass tomorrow. We will just end up going somewhere else militarily in the next decade.

[madokie]

6. yes there will be no matter whether we impeach these traitors or not

but just think the power they will have when they do because of what we allowed to stand today. to me your argument doesn't hold water, sorry but thats just me.

[The2ndWheel]

13. No need to be sorry

Just because I said it doesn't mean it's right :)

To me, we've been giving away our individual power for a long time. We've become so dependent on the institutions we've created, or that were created for us, that whether we stand up or sit down, those institutions gain more power either way. So the UN with the help of a US President(and our military is really the only reason anyone listens to the UN anyway) can impose sanctions on Iraq for the better part of a decade(knowing that sanctions usually never reach their intended target). That doesn't work, so a new US President breaks from the UN, and goes into Iraq militarily. We get the guy we tried to get with the sanctions, but now we have a mess. So now we need the UN again(backed up, not ignored, by the global military power). Then we need the UN for our next enemy of the moment, Iran. We may impose sanctions again, but that will only hurt the everyday Iranian. Then we'll go in there militarily, and the cycle will continue.

So each step of the way, we lose our ability as individuals to do much of anything(unless you're power hungry enough to lead a state). We're so dependent on the system that all we can do is hope that something might happen. If we dont go to work, we can't pay the bills or buy food, and we can't stop economic expansion(which is why war happens, for the most part). If we don't pay our taxes, our kids can't go to school because neither the school or the road to get to the school is there, and we also can't stop the military machine from churning.

So yes, when we break it down, we as individuals are responsible. At the same time, we as individuals aren't able to do much, because to do so would mean everything else would start to break down, not just the military-industrial-complex. That complex is tied together for a reason; you can't have one without the other.

[madokie]

17. I'm not disagreeing with you at all

but in all this complex state we find ourselves in what about the people of Iraq who are being slaughter with their country in ruins pretty much at the hands of our military, err the long reach of the bush*/cheney* arm

[The2ndWheel]

27. They're in the way, like the majority of us

They were never really a country anyway, the Brits carved it up to fit their interests. The only way for there to be an actual "Iraq", would be after a civil war. There are too many diverse groups there, and not one of them has a monopoly on violence(except the former dictator). That's the only way a stable state will come about(that or dictatorship). A civil war is the only reason America exists the way it does today. It's the only reason any country exists the way it does today; various wars over time, until there is one side left with all the power, and then anyone remaining is integrated(voluntarily or by force) into the new configuration.

A good thing would have been for us not to have gone into Iraq this time, or last time. The better thing would have been for Britain not to shape the region for its own hegemonic interests. Even better would've been for the Persians, Ottomans, Greeks, Romans, and whoever else wanted to control the world not to try and do it.

What about the people of Iraq? Pawns on a chessboard I suppose. What about the people who were here before Columbus? What about the people on the borders of the Roman empire? What about the people thrown into gas chambers by the Nazis? Toys? Cheap expendable products? The cost of business? I guess you could call them life, but that wouldn't change much, look what we do to the natural world(and all the life in it). Cogs in the machine? Replaceable widgets?

[madokie]

29. none of that matters today, the Iraqi are being killed like flies today

yesterday and looks like tomorrow as well and the next day too. wtf All the while we are debating what if's or that they didn't have a country anyway, so sad my friend so say

[cassiepriam]

9. Yes we all have blood on our hands. We are paying for this war.

And it is being done in our name.

[madokie]

11. theres just no two ways about it, are there?

[bdamomma]

12. we are paying for this, in a number of ways, we are seeing

our own country,reputation, the whole infrastructure of this country is being shredded, civil liberties are being eroded, our deficit is through the ceiling, and a lot more, how much more abuse are we going to take?

[madokie]

14. yes we are

the people who are really suffering did nothing to deserve this carnage that bushco* has/are raining down on them. The people of Iraq need our help and badly

[bdamomma]

10. we have to keep the pressure on our Reps and Senators

and everytime this stupid bastard * says he understands the American people, we should all call the WH Comment line, and say I do not appreciate the President doing the thinking for me!!! I mean :wtf: we are not children!!!!
Keep the pressure on these Senators and Reps.

[mdmc]

16. But can't we wait quietly for Hillbama to save the day

or invade Iran?

[madokie]

18. I can't wait quietly any longer

this is bullshit what they are doing to the Iraqi in our name. that alone pisses me off to no end.

[bdamomma]

24. me either, and apparently the Congress is being played

for fools also, we all have a risk in this, we need to keep on our Congress, apparently we do give them the balls to do something/anything, we have to make a difference, and they should not back down from giving lord pissypants a time line for withdrawal, or will we see even more death and destruction in Iraq. This is the count now in Iraq, how many more have to die for lies???? 3,609 how many more until September??? We must stop this. One million people have been killed in Iraq, we are committing Genocide, and my own ancestry a million and a half Armenians were killed in 1915 by the Ottoman Turks and that was called a Genocide, and now it's us doing the killing of people who did not do anything to us, this is beyond contemptible.

[madokie]

28. it needs to stop today right now and it must before it destroys our country

look what the Afghanistan War did to the USSR, Iraq is doing the same to us. but that is besides the point imo, Iraqi are being killed like dying is going out of style while we are over here wanting them to step up to the plate and do something, the onus is/should be on us not them, Americans have to understand the Iraqi did nothing to us to deserve this. in the meantime we need to stop the killing, removing our asses will go a long ways towards that. In solidarity we will win this but it will not be soon enough for so many innocent people, young and old male or female it doesn't matter, so sad

[KharmaTrain]

20. How About 17 Repugnicans?

The House yesterday voted, again, on a bill that will cut funding and bring troops home. Pelosi puahed it through and it passed. What else can she and the House do? Now it's on to a Senate where 5 Repugnicans stand in the way of an up or down vote on this and other ammendments and preventing boooshie from using a veto that could dry up all funding.

The criminals are those what vote to enable boooosh...Normie Coleman, Lugar, Alexander, Specter....those who have "reservations" about Iraq but still continue to enable this regime.

You want to put blame, that's where it goes. We should be pressuring these Senators with sit-ins, protests and a relentess blitz on blogs and other resources to remind the American people who are prolonging this invasion.

Sorry...some of us have been demanding accountability, but first I want this ugly invasion to end. I don't give a shit about boooosh when it comes to finding a way, any way, to end this invasion. Impeachment? That won't bring a single troop home any faster...if anything, I fear an impeachment/acquital all but opens the door to this regime invading Iran or some other attack as this regime fights to create distractions and fear.

[madokie]

22. all the while the Iraqi are dying by the train loads

is the urgency here, can that not be seen

[KharmaTrain]

25. And???

I'm still waiting on how a drawn-out political impeachment ends the dying?

I want this invasion over YESTERDAY...I can't emphasize that enough. I want this regime held accountable not for its POLITICAL, but its CRIMINAL acts. And I want ALL responsible held accountable, not just a sock puppet.

The issue here is finding something/anything that ovrcomes a Repugnican fillibuster that prevents any legislation from moving forward and forcing a Veto from booshie...force him to compromise NOW or face losing all funding. This could drain his warchest and ability to kill more a lot faster than any other means at our disposal.

[madokie]

30. has not gwb admitted to impeachable crimes already?

arrest he and his co-hort on any number of serious criminal charges, take a pick and the senate stop the war right now, this minute.

so now are you gonna demand I provide links?

[KharmaTrain]

34. We Need A Criminal Referal

Yes, we have plenty of charges...and no need to link them. No need to sell me. I'm not a juror in this case. 17 Repugnicans are. Those are the people standing between us and this regime...look at how dismissive these goons have been to any charge...including those that ended up in a criminal conviction.

Nixon's impeachment was predicated on him being an unidicted co-conspirator...Clinton's inquisition was set in motion by the Starr Report...in both cases there was a legal "underpining" that the Judiciary Committee used to set the impeachment process in motion. While we have charges...we have fragmented evidence at this point. We need a special prosecutor or independent counsel to get to the real truth...to, using a Fitzism, operate without sand being thrown in his eyes. There's so much out there and we have yet to break the stonewall that will open the door to lasting and substantial criminal charges against all the principals in this regime.

Again...now please answer...with all due respect...How does impeachment without a conviction bring the troops home one moment sooner?

[madokie]

37. so we just throw our hands in the air and keep on doing whats not working

I'm not saying impeachment will do anything except stopping this bushco* behavior from being used as a precedence in the future for the same things, thats all. stopping the killing of innocent Iraqi is what we need to do today, first thing.

[KharmaTrain]

38. Deal WIth The Cards Dealt

Again...I feel your frustration. I share 99.9999% of it. And I agree that we must prevent another booooosh cabal or even any right wing regime from coming to power in our lifetimes. What doesn't kill us, makes us stronger...and I'm emboldened now that history will vindicate us. There's no law that says Impeachment can't or won't or shouldn't happen...just when and how it can be used most effectively. A post 1/20/09 impeachment could be conducted without the sideshows of Executive privilidge and with Democrats in a far stronger position to get evidence and present a compelling case not just for the politicians but for the world and history.

Then there's also the cases that must be brought to a higher authority...the World Court. War crimes have been committed here and once this cabal is removed, a push must be made to prosecute the real crimes that this regime brought upon the Iraqi people and so many others. It may take years...but it's imperative that this regime is never allowed to slip away into the night.

I posted below about what we can do now...apply the pressure where pressure is due:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1323757&mesg_id=1324688

Let's go after what we can do...force this regime's hand on the invasion and force him and his corrupt party to eat, drink, sleep and wear this war like a millstone. Force compromise or let the funding dry up. Stand firm with and then apply pressure to the Democrats not to buckle like they did last May...force a showdown on this and other pending legislation.

The focus must be on the Senate...since no matter what passes out of the House, it is held hostage by McConnell...this must be exposed and our efforts should be to encourage Democrats to call his bluff.

Cheers...

:toast:

[bdamomma]

26. that should our first concern to end this stupid invasion

I will not call it a "war on terror" all friggin sound bites, this must stop, let's be a pain in ass for these Senators and Reps, we got to end this. Even call those Repig Senators offices, shit, now is the time to get on their asses, or way past the time.

[madokie]

32. yes stop the bleeding first, then we can talk but stop the bleeding

these are people who we are responsible for killing as it stands now and will until we put a stop to it and then I don't know if the stench of blood will ever completely wash off. they are human beings too

The thoughts that must be going through the small children in Iraq's mind is chilling

[KharmaTrain]

35. 5 Repugnicans Mean Up Or Down Votes

This brings to the Senate Floor the bill passed out of the House yesterday. I brings to the floor the Webb Ammendment. It forces Repugnicans to vote up or down on where they stand on this invasion and then forces them to stand by those votes. It exposes the frauds who say one thing when the cameras are on and another thing when the whip is cracked and the votes are taken.

If boooshie is forced to Veto, then the bill comes back and it can then be held up from any action until boooshie compromises. This is when we put the pressure on Democrats to hold firm and if booshie doesn't compormise the money for his war for profit runs out. This is could force things to a head sooner rather than later.

Cheers...

[Rydz777]

31. It boils down to this: The Constitution says that only Congress has

the power to declare war. The last war that Congress declared was World War II. Everything since then has been based on a "resolution" or less. If we began impeaching every President who starts a war without a formal Congressional Declaration - as required by the Constitution - then we would have a lot fewer disasters such as the present one.

[madokie]

33. I agree

[porphyrian]

36. That's what we get for sending politicians to do the job. - n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

39. No We Aren't. Doesn't Matter How Much You Want Us To Be.

Many have tried issuing this premise before, and each time it gets no less absurd.

[mdmc]

41. this is W's war, right?

:)
This is NOT America's war! Once W is chIMPEACHED, the war will be over. Or once 1-20-09 comes around.

IMHO, this war can be blamed on all that would would risk other people's children to protect their own.

Of course, all Du'ers are exempt. We are not tainted by ownership of our foreign policy. We are pure, innocent.

[madokie]

43. in comparison to w* I'm pretty innocent, hell pure would be more like the proper word

its the Iraqi's fault that we're killing the hell out of 'em, huh

[greyl]

45. Would you admit that we are responsible to a degree, or are you certain

that we are absolutely not in away, by any measure, responsible?

I'd love to hear an argument showing why we have zero responsibility.

[madokie]

46. yes that would be interesting, I'd like to read it

but then again I've had things explained to me to where I come away not knowing a damn thing, not even what I thought I knew to begin with and then when its only an opinion anyway, so one can't ever tell how it'll turn out until the ole fat girl sings i 'spose.

[bigtree]

44. oh yes

we are very much responsible; not culpable perhaps, but definitely responsible

[madokie]

47. I've looked at it every way from sunday and I can't see how we can deny

our responsibility in this. Its a nightmare to the victims both the American Soldiers and especially the Iraqi civilians. until we invaded thats all any of them were just civilians, they weren't up in arms at us as a whole, I'm sure most of them couldn't have given two shits for any of us Americans before the invasion. Oh but they damn sure do now

splchk

[bigtree]

49. it's why I advocate against the occupation every day

I'm responsible for the direction of my government, even when I'm incapable of directly and immediately impacting that direction.

[RFKJr4PRES]

48. We are responsible for our 'leaders'

Unfortunately while many of us were paying attention, our society as a whole cannot be bothered to care about what the government does behind their backs, they are too 'busy' so it has been an uphill battle just trying to get fellow citizens to care. There is a reason they don't teach civics or very much US history in US schools these days. Of the people that do care, many feel powerless. After killing our real leaders in the 60's and Kent State, many are afraid and/or feel hopeless.

I do know that George Bush is not the only one that will look bad in the history books, the American people look like idiots allowing this corrupt evil man to stay in office. We have become "Good Americans" and it will take much time and forgiveness to heal our image in the world.

[madokie]

50. I agree it'll take a lot of time to heal our image if we are even able to

do that.
welcome to DU btw