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Xithras (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:08 PM Original message |
Serious question about impeachment. |
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ThomWV (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:12 PM Response to Original message |
1. Warrantless wiretaps - illegal as sunday afternoon sin |
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Xithras (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:14 PM Response to Reply #1 |
3. Performed by the FBI. Not Bush. |
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ThomWV (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:17 PM Response to Reply #3 |
6. Performed by the NSA actually, but no matter - ever hear of the "Unitary Executive"? |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:22 PM Response to Reply #6 |
16. "Signing statement"--the Supremes will rule it has overriding force of law. |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:27 PM Response to Reply #16 |
23. They wouldn't go there |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:50 PM Response to Reply #23 |
46. They most certainly WOULD. And Kennedy has become a "more reliable conservative." |
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Sir Jeffrey (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:30 PM Response to Reply #3 |
27. So just because Nixon didn't actually break into... |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:55 PM Response to Reply #27 |
48. You're forgetting they had tapes. And John Dean. And the potential for |
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Sir Jeffrey (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:32 PM Response to Reply #48 |
67. But there were articles prepared against Nixon... |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:39 PM Response to Reply #67 |
70. But not burglary. And I agree, you can impeach a ham sandwich for BEING a ham sandwich. |
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Sir Jeffrey (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:56 PM Response to Reply #70 |
74. I understand your point... |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 07:34 PM Response to Reply #74 |
77. Ewwww. Them's "Tony Snow" words! |
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Sir Jeffrey (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 08:05 PM Response to Reply #77 |
80. I strongly disagree... |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 08:25 PM Response to Reply #80 |
82. You assume investigation WILL uncover more evidence. What if it doesn't? |
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Sir Jeffrey (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 08:57 PM Response to Reply #82 |
83. "Clinton's approval shot to the seventies"... |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 11:09 PM Response to Reply #83 |
85. Well, I don't want to get bogged down here, but his party didn't LOSE that election |
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Sir Jeffrey (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-13-07 11:24 AM Response to Reply #85 |
91. I totally understand your points... |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-13-07 02:14 PM Response to Reply #91 |
92. I agree there WILL be more surprises, even though BushCo has worked hard to hide their sins |
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Xithras (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:55 PM Original message |
FBI was typo. Remember, Nixon wasn't going to be impeached over the breakin |
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Sir Jeffrey (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:36 PM Response to Original message |
69. You may be right about Nixon.. |
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yurbud (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-13-07 02:51 PM Response to Reply #27 |
94. yep, and Hitler didn't kill anyone with his own hands, so if he had lived, we couldn't try him. |
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yurbud (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-13-07 02:50 PM Response to Reply #3 |
93. he publicly confessed |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:21 PM Response to Reply #1 |
12. Not only did Bush, himself, not do that, he covered his ass with a SIGNING STATEMENT |
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Wiley50 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:13 PM Response to Original message |
2. Self-admitted violation of FISA laws FELONY, among others n/t |
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Xithras (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:19 PM Response to Reply #2 |
10. I want the "others". |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:23 PM Response to Reply #2 |
17. Again, signing statement plus Supreme Court ruling = No Crime nt |
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MonkeyFunk (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:14 PM Response to Original message |
4. The majority of Americans |
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MonkeyFunk (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:57 PM Response to Reply #4 |
75. Why does nobody ever respond to this? |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 07:45 PM Response to Reply #75 |
79. Well,like Al Gore's title |
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ben_meyers (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 09:41 PM Response to Reply #75 |
84. Not to mention that the poll everyone uses |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:17 PM Response to Original message |
5. The process STARTS with impeachment |
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MonkeyFunk (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:18 PM Response to Reply #5 |
8. no |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:21 PM Response to Reply #8 |
14. There is nothing substantive which is not already known |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:26 PM Response to Reply #14 |
22. Signing statement. Supreme Court rules that it has full force of law. |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:28 PM Response to Reply #22 |
25. The Supremes would rule against signing statements |
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MrCoffee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:31 PM Response to Reply #25 |
28. Kennedy has sold his soul...he can't be counted on anymore |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:44 PM Response to Reply #25 |
39. You're sure about that, eh? |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:25 PM Response to Reply #8 |
20. Aw, stop making sense!! You're being LOGICAL!!! |
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Xithras (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:21 PM Response to Reply #5 |
13. Very incorrect |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:22 PM Response to Reply #13 |
15. He broke federal FISA laws |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:28 PM Response to Reply #15 |
24. He prepared a signing statement saying he didn't have to pay attention to that 'stuff' for |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:29 PM Response to Reply #24 |
26. Calm down |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:00 PM Response to Reply #26 |
53. I'm quite calm. I can count though. 5-4 is 5-4. |
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Xithras (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:33 PM Response to Reply #15 |
30. Legally, that's not fully established yet. |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:41 PM Response to Reply #30 |
35. Repeatedly lying to justify an illegal invasion of a sovereign country |
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Xithras (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:44 PM Response to Reply #35 |
40. Lying isn't illegal unless it's under oath. |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:47 PM Response to Reply #40 |
43. What part of a crime not being necessary for impeachment |
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Xithras (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:00 PM Response to Reply #43 |
52. If not a criminal statute, then a "high crime" is required. |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:04 PM Response to Reply #52 |
54. Well said. I do wish people would spend more time pressing the inhabitants of those 22 GOP Senate |
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jmowreader (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 11:57 PM Response to Reply #54 |
87. I thought about it, and I think we HAVE the 22 GOP senators |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-13-07 03:50 AM Response to Reply #87 |
89. For certain, sixteen of them plan to run for reelection. John Warner, though, I think has had it. |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:07 PM Response to Reply #52 |
57. Not that clear |
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MrCoffee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:45 PM Response to Reply #35 |
41. and which of those statements were made under oath? |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:51 PM Response to Reply #41 |
47. OK, how about lying to Congress (Title 18, Chapter 47, Section 1001) |
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MrCoffee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:57 PM Response to Reply #47 |
51. Those are all from the SotU, right? |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:06 PM Response to Reply #51 |
55. They aren't "testimony under oath" either. He can lie to Congress all he wants, and the rest of us |
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jtrockville (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:17 PM Response to Original message |
7. Here's Elizabeth Holtzman's list (from 2006) |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:12 PM Response to Reply #7 |
59. All of those are easily refuted by BushCo, though |
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jtrockville (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:55 PM Response to Reply #59 |
73. Of course criminals have excuses. |
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immoderate (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:18 PM Response to Original message |
9. There doesn't have to be a crime. |
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H2O Man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:23 PM Response to Reply #9 |
19. You are correct. |
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Xithras (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:26 PM Response to Reply #9 |
21. Generally there are definitions for the terms. |
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Poiuyt (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:31 PM Response to Reply #9 |
29. Yes - Abuse of power is considered a "high crime" |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:34 PM Response to Reply #9 |
31. You can impeach a ham sandwich. But if you don't convict, it goes down in history as a political |
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MrCoffee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:36 PM Response to Reply #31 |
32. ahem |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:19 PM Response to Reply #32 |
62. Well, what's that theme we hear so often? |
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Xithras (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:42 PM Response to Reply #31 |
36. Indeed, that's what *I'm* looking at right now. |
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MrCoffee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:44 PM Response to Reply #36 |
38. to *convict*, 67 Senators need to vote. |
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MannyGoldstein (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:19 PM Response to Original message |
11. It's *Not* Well Defined - And He's Commited Glaring Crimes Anyway |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:38 PM Response to Reply #11 |
33. Warrantless wiretapping accompanied by a Presidential Signing Statement? |
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MrCoffee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:41 PM Response to Reply #11 |
34. whoa, how'd the 4th Amendment get implicated? |
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MannyGoldstein (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:36 PM Response to Reply #34 |
68. US Citizen's Phones Were Tapped |
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:23 PM Response to Original message |
18. It does not have to be a crime in the sense of legal |
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BlooInBloo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:43 PM Response to Original message |
37. Well, if you ignore all of the reasons for impeachment, then there's no reason to impeach. |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:45 PM Response to Reply #37 |
42. There is only ONE reason for impeachment--to remove someone from office. |
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BlooInBloo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:48 PM Response to Reply #42 |
44. Drat! The terminological quibble-master has discovered me! |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:21 PM Response to Reply #44 |
63. Well, I realize you're being clever, but that is the purpose. |
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G_Leo_Criley (553 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:49 PM Response to Reply #42 |
45. there is no removal |
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conscious evolution (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:55 PM Response to Original message |
49. International law IS US law. |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 05:57 PM Response to Reply #49 |
50. And another good reason |
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conscious evolution (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:07 PM Response to Reply #50 |
56. There are no good reasons nor good excuses |
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Xithras (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:08 PM Response to Reply #49 |
58. Yes and no. |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:17 PM Response to Reply #58 |
60. Did you read Article 6? |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:26 PM Response to Reply #60 |
64. An interesting aspect of that Article. |
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conscious evolution (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:30 PM Response to Reply #58 |
66. We do have the authority to try here |
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Toots (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:17 PM Response to Original message |
61. Obstructing Justice |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:27 PM Response to Reply #61 |
65. Hmmmm. And Clinton wasn't convicted on that Article, either. |
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conscious evolution (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:48 PM Response to Reply #65 |
71. That is because the Senate knew they were bullshit charges. |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:53 PM Response to Reply #71 |
72. Not really. That's because not enough Senators wanted Clinton to be forced out of office. |
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Toots (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-13-07 07:17 AM Response to Reply #65 |
90. Clinton was Impeached though |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-13-07 05:14 PM Response to Reply #90 |
95. Like I said, you can impeach a ham sandwich. |
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HiFructosePronSyrup (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 06:58 PM Response to Original message |
76. Bush just committed a felony yesterday. |
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MADem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 07:36 PM Response to Reply #76 |
78. Well, you have to prove the "corruptly" part. |
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lonestarnot (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 08:07 PM Response to Original message |
81. Did you by chance hear the State of the Union address with the 16 words? |
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Duer 157099 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-12-07 11:19 PM Response to Original message |
86. Obstruction of Justice |
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Jack Rabbit (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-13-07 12:04 AM Response to Original message |
88. Do not confuse "high crimes and misdemeanors" with "felonies and misdemanors" |
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