Musings and rants ..there is only 1 political party in the United States.

[Postman]

The Capitalist Party.

Republicans = the rightwing of the party

Democrats = the leftwing of the party

There is no party that represents the working class.
There is no party that represents peace.
There is no party that represents economic justice.
There is no party that represents good government/checks and balances/holding office holders accountable.

It is a myth inculcated to us from childhood, like the rest of American mythological history. The myth is that ANYONE can become the POTUS. The truth is you are owned by corporate America. If you stray from that line, you will not be the POTUS.

FDR was considered a traitor to his class. He was an anomaly. He could never get elected to be the POTUS today.

The election process in America via privatization of the vote has been corrupted. Elections are a fraud.

I'm pretty much along for the ride now that the Democrats have abrogated their responsibility to hold the most corrupt regime ever to hold power in the US gov't accountable.

According to insider talk, Nancy Pelosi and Steny Hoyer are not speaking. It seems Steny wants to go down the impeachment road but Nancy doesn't. Apparently she's looking at some sort of political gain by keeping the crooks in office. What's worse? Short-sighted and maybe short-lived political gain in exchange for not correcting a crime against humanity...

They all make me sick.

[Faygo Kid]

1. Remember to vote Nader in 2000

No difference. Right.

I may be sick of the Dems right now, but I sure don't have that short a memory.

[Greyhound]

3. If nader didn't get a single vote, it wouldn't have made one bit of difference.

Just as it is a foregone conclusion that the '08 election will go exactly as corporate America wants it to.

[Warren Stupidity]

5. I do not see the OP promoting Nader.

Perhaps he is but is just not saying so. Meanwhile you have invented a strawman argument. Nice work.

[Raskolnik]

8. No, but Nader relies on sophistry like the OP to keep him in the public eye

If you believe the OP, then you believe Nader's "not a dime's worth of difference" bullshit.

[Warren Stupidity]

19. It aint sophistry.

You can bury your head in the sand and pretend that our party is not compromised and corrupted at the top, but the reality is that it is compromised and corrupted at the top. The question is what to do about that reality. Denying it exists is one strategy, which like the 'nader option' is not one I think will get us very far.

[Raskolnik]

42. No one is asking you to ignore or deny the problems.

We should be striving to fix the very real problems with Democratic leadership.

What is rather silly, however, is to pretend that there aren't real differences between Democratic and Republican policies. Maybe those differences aren't big enough for some people, but to pretend those differences don't exist, and don't have dramatic consequences over the long run, is simply willful ignorance in my opinion.


_edit clarity_

[EFerrari]

32. So, how many millions are the Dem frontrunners raising?

[Raskolnik]

41. Quite a few.

Does that mean there isn't any difference between the policies of Democrats and Republicans?

[EFerrari]

43. No. Imho, it means money trumps statesmanship. n/t

[Raskolnik]

44. Pithy, but it doesn't actually get at the issue.

Do you think that there are meaningful differences between Democrats and Republicans, or do you agree with the OP?

[EFerrari]

45. I think there are very significant differences between Democrats

and Thugs but the money tends to level those.

[Raskolnik]

46. Then I don't think we have much of a dispute.

Have a good day.

[EFerrari]

49. Cool! Today in GD, two DUers agreed on something.

:)

[Greyhound]

2. Pretty much...

and when a corpo-capitalist like Hoyer wants to indict these fuckers, you have to wonder just what Pelosi's motivation really is.

[Totally Committed]

6. My gawd, I thought the same thing, but didn't say it because I thought

it would sound too paranoid. Thanks for saying that! :applause:

TC

[Greyhound]

12. Never been one to shirk my paranoia, especially after it has all been

proven to be exactly right time after time for over 30 years.

You're welcome.:thumbsup:
:hi:

[Warren Stupidity]

13. Indeed. I am getting weary of just being right.

I'd rather we were actually able to do something to change the way things are going.

[Greyhound]

29. At this point I'll settle for being wrong.

Making plans for the other though.

If we do manage to get a Democratic President in 2008, the devolution should slow down and the SCOTUS might be salvageable for a few years, we should be OK. If we get another Republik, we'll be hard pressed to survive.

[Totally Committed]

4. I know that you will probably take some heat for this post.

But, fwiw, I think I have to agree with you. I started coming around to this way of thinking since Katrina. It brought about (no pun intended) a real sea-change in my thinking about race and poverty and corporate entities controlling our country -- and our government.

It's sad, but true. ANd, they all make me sick, too.

TC

[Raskolnik]

7. Yeah, no difference at all.

Do you honestly believe that the last seven years would have been no different had Gore been president?

Would the Supreme Court have the same makeup? Would we have invaded Iraq?

[Soulshine]

10. I think he was saying....

Nader didn't have enough votes to win it decisively for Gore in Florida and the Court would have stole it anyways. Even Gore said that. But realize we would have had Lieberman as VP. I don't know how that would have influenced anything if it would have at all, but they would have had a traitor on the inside.

Honestly lets get rid of the electoral college. The country is too big and diverse for it. IMHO the electoral college is also why a multi-party system will never work in America. If we go rid of the EC 300,000,000 votes would be up for grabs. THEN IT'S ANYONES GAME!

[Warren Stupidity]

11. So about that.

Gore is not president because of a bloodless coup. I do recall how all of the Democratic congressional delegation walked out of congress in protest after their vote rejecting Bush was ignored. Oh wait, no Senator would even stand with Maxine Waters to put the matter to a vote. Not one. Not even Al Gore. Our party leaders went along for the ride that went from the coup of 2000 through the still not fully explained and massively convenient attacks of 9-11, to the disaster in mesopotamia. We went along for the ride the entire way.

"Would we have invaded Iraq?" a majority of our senate congressional delegation voted with the rest of the war party to invade Iraq. A majority of our senate congressional delegation continues to vote for the war.

There is a progressive wing of the Democratic Party, however it is a minority faction. The majority faction is corrupt and is, as the OP notes, the left wing of the Corporate War Party. That is the reality of the situation. The OP does not state that we should walk out of the Democratic Party. Perhaps that is his solution, but it is not the only strategy to deal with the reality, nor is it my opinion. Given that the two parties are de facto institutionalized, the strategy must be to regain control of the Democratic Party.

[Soulshine]

14. Or we could elect another Lincoln

His Election herald the death of one party and the birth of another. Here is a wild hypothetical. America wakes up, The republican party dies and the Democrats split into two parties. I mean a corrupted Dem acts like an Honest Republican anyways....I think.... I'm not quite sure what an Honest Republican looks like....McCain maybe? But Look how well that's going for him. Plus he's still an idiot. :rofl:

[Warren Stupidity]

17. Lincoln was a very long time ago.

I'm not sure that model still works. I am pretty sure that we are going to have to have a massive crackup on the order of the Great Depression before there will be substantial change. McCain is not at all honest, but he sure is an idiot.

[Soulshine]

23. *shrug

He seems to lie the least, otherwise I think he'd be doing better in the polls. I wouldn't vote for him even if he were DEM in every opinion, cause I don't like the idea of Presidents that insert their will over the will of the people.

But I think we are on the verge of a major economic catastrophe. In 5 years income in China will have risen high enough, and Capitalism will have spread deep enough into its infrastructure, they will not only out produce us with sub par products at cheap prices. But they will be able to overbid us on any resource we currently import. My biggest fear is China buys all the world resources and we end up being the largest importer of Chinese goods in the world. We aren't pumping out good, teacher, scientist. We're a country of Entertainers and Business Managers and it's gonna defiantly lead to our loss as a world "super power". Look how long it took Russia to start to recover.

[Soulshine]

20. hmmm....

"Oh wait, no Senator would even stand with Maxine Waters to put the matter to a vote. Not one. Not even Al Gore."

I heard him say in an interview that their was no recourse after that ruling other than revolution, and so he chose to respect the republic.

I'm sure that doesn't make you feel better about it in hindsight, but I kinda respect that decision. It's really hard to admit you lost for the "good of the republic", even when you know in your heart you won.

[Warren Stupidity]

22. In retrospect it was an awful decision that set the tone of appeasement

to tyranny that we are still stuck in. Revolution: nonviolent civil disobedience on a massive scale, was the correct response to what happened then, and is the only way this shit is ever going to end. Now they are far more fully entrenched and in control than they were 7 years ago.

[Soulshine]

24. I can't really argue with that

:patriot:

[Double T]

9. Kucinich would change the course of the corporate destruction..........

and sellout of America. The current leadership of the Democratically controlled Congress has failed 'US' miserably.

[Soulshine]

16. you're probably right about that

.....I'm just not sure America can keep up with him. We're a BIG ship, gonna take us a minute to turn around. Kucinich 2016!

[Double T]

28. 2016? If 'WE' wait until 2016 to change course SOMEONE..........

will be diving to salvage whats left of the sunken BIG ship wreckage. See YOU in Davey Jones Locker!!

[some guy]

34. He would certainly try.

How far do you think he'd get in getting his ideas through a corporate-controlled Congress?

My personal theory is the only way Mr Kucinich can win is if enough people wake up to how corrupt both parties are, and after the election, continue to hound their representatives continuously to force these sorts of changes through.

What it might look like is several million people living outside the houses of Congress for a couple years, forcing their Reps and Senators to go back in and rethink how they just voted on a particular piece of legislation - over and over until they get it right.

[Double T]

36. Drastic times require drastic measures. The longer 'WE' wait............

to force the change of course of this nation, the worse it will be for the masses going forward. The corporations and their lobbyist need to be diminished and neutralized before they convert 'US' into a third world economic nation. The inevitable train wreak that corporate america and washington, d.c. have created WILL happen, as the current economic sham can not be sustained by the MSM and the WH propaganda corp. Several million people standing guard over the legislation of our future might be a good start in correcting the corrupt problem residing within the beltway. Vigilance is the only remedy for their blatant arrogance.

[razors edge]

15. Just sitting here watching

the rearranging of the deck chairs myself, I have already loaded up on essentials, beens, bullets etc.

This too will pass, in just a short decade or three.

[Warren Stupidity]

18. Human beens? Or beenie babies? nt.

[razors edge]

25. Unfortunately,

these



(making fun of the illiterate is not nice):P

[Soulshine]

21. BEANS AND FRANKS!

:silly:

[petunia.here]

26. K&R

[GliderGuider]

27. I hear what you're saying

I watched a speech by Arundhati Roy on YouTube where she described the political parties in the States and how they're run by the corporatists.
She said Americans don't have a real choice. To illustrate, she said you can buy Tide or you can buy Ivory Snow, but you're still giving your money to Proctor & Gamble.

[Marrah_G]

30. They are all the same, why bother to vote!

:sarcasm:

Right?

[KillCapitalism]

31. K&R, I agree with your rant.

Both parties have mostly been bought by corporate interests.

I'd really love to see a Socialist party rise to power in America. I think if the economy gets much worse it could happen.

[WilliamPitt]

33. Not so short-sighted

if it gives us a veto-proof Senate majority, a Dem president, and the ability to repair the Supreme Court.

[Matsubara]

35. "FDR was considered a traitor to his class."

By many of the wealthy industrialists of the day, yes. That's why they tried to get the military to take him out.

However, he most certainly was not a traitor to his class, he was just a lot smarter than his enemies. He knew that the massive unemployment and poverty caused by the depression was a serious danger to the existing government - socialist parties were getting significant shares of the vote, and labor unrest was commonplace.

If the depression was a symptom of the elites destabilizing the economy by their greed, FDR's aim was to save capitalism from the capitalists, by using some of the elements of socialism, and in doing so gave birth to the longest and broadest period of prosperity in US history, lasting until about 1972-73.

I agree completely with most of your post, and I don't even need to look at the replies to imagine the bile you'll get from the shrieking blue-dogs saying "Naderite!!!"

I guess they think that the democratic party as it is is the best that we can do.

We go through this over and over again here. I wonder if it wouldn't be better if there was a separate "Progressive Underground" board where people who care more about ideals than partisan loyalty could discuss things without being ripped apart for not being loyal enough to St. Kerry, St. Gore, St. Pelosi, St. Reid, or whatever standard-bearer of the day. I don't consider myself a Naderite. I'm a socialist who mostly votes democrat for lack of a better choice.

:toast:

[Solon]

37. You know, these are folks that seem to have traded their brains for party stickers...

They probably dispense those campaigns stickers straight out of their ears. You know, for a group of folks who try to distinguish themselves from the Repukes by not marching lockstep, well, they march lockstep just fine.

This is why I HATE partisan politics, these "Politicos" have been given a big brain by mistake, a brain stem would have sufficed, all you have to do is vote for the person with the "D" after their name, and you are a "good person". For fuck's sake, I can make a BASIC program that does the EXACT SAME THING! And these people think they are smart?

[bread_and_roses]

38. Good one, Solon! (n/t)

[Solon]

39. I got another one, a large contigent on DU and elsewhere love passing the buck...

They can't own up to campaign mistakes, hence the Nader bashing, which, if you think about it is rather silly. He didn't steal any votes, they have to be earned first, otherwise what the fuck is the point of campaigning? Using a logical fallacy to support your position is rather weak.

Not to mention that quite a few of them ALSO say the left is irrelevant, which is another logical fallacy, if the left was and is irrelevant, then any Nader voters were also irrelevant and therefore had no bearing on the outcome of the 2000 election. Hence you cannot blame Nader voters for Bush, quite the contrary, you would have to blame the campaign managers in the Democratic party for FAILING TO WIN OVER SOME VOTERS!

[bread_and_roses]

40. That has always been my position. We're (nominally) a democracy, after all. As for the "negligible

Left, who did the voter registration and GOTV in '04 for Kerry? It was ACT, ACORN, USAction and its' Citizen Action affiliates, not to mention other work done by MoveOn, and other Progressive orgs. The DLC was happy enough to have our work then - and I'd like to see them claim that the existing Dem structure could have turned out those voters without us.

[EFerrari]

51. Oh, there you go, injecting sense into this conversation.

:)

[JanMichael]

47. Ditto for me on your last line.

Lack of a better choice indeed. We have very little to choose from and frankly I'm getting weary from hoping against hope that the Dems will someday shift in any sense to the genuine Left. What's that saying about repeating an act that always yields the same outcome yet you always expect a different outcome to happen? The end analysis is insanity I believe.

[camero]

48. There is

We go through this over and over again here. I wonder if it wouldn't be better if there was a separate "Progressive Underground" board where people who care more about ideals than partisan loyalty could discuss things without being ripped apart for not being loyal enough to St. Kerry, St. Gore, St. Pelosi, St. Reid, or whatever standard-bearer of the day. I don't consider myself a Naderite. I'm a socialist who mostly votes democrat for lack of a better choice.


It's the Socialist Progressives group on DU.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=395

[EFerrari]

50. Shhhhhhhh!

:)

[dysfunctional press]

52. poll after poll after poll shows that americans WANT liberal ideas/programs...

perhaps the time is right for a solidly progressive and populist third party that's beholden to the people, and NOt the corporations.

the Dems and the pugs are proving every day how little they can accomplish on our behalfs.

and (lots more)people ARE starting to notice.