Eating Too Much Meat & Global Warming: A Few More Inconvenient Truths

[nosmokes]

While the author advocates going completely vegetarian and chastises those like me that choose to partake of the occasional organically raised meat from a local family producer maybe i am just being defensive, but i do enough about practical organic farming to know that you hafta have manure going into the compost piles for the soil and i've never seen a family farm yet that can afford to keep animals as pets solely for their 'output', as it were. but i don't question for a moment the fact that cutting down amazonian rain forest and replacing it with row crops of GMO soy and corn to feed beef that's going into mcdonald's burgers is a prescription for disaster that goes far beyond replacing the oxygen producing acreage with more methane producing 'machines.'
original-HuffPost
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A Few More 'Inconvenient Truths'
By Kathy Freston
The Huffington Post, 2.02.07

The report released today by the world's leading climate scientists made no bones about it: global warming is happening in a big way and it is very likely man-made. So, if we are indeed the bulk of the problem, we ought to step up and start doing things differently. Now.

My last post ("Vegetarian Is the New Prius") got a lot of traction, and I think it's because there is a realization that being "part of the solution" can be a whole lot simpler -and cheaper - than going out and buying a new car. We can make a huge difference in the environment by eating a plant based diet instead of an animal based one. Factory farming pollutes our air and water, reduces the rainforests, and goes a long way to create global warming. And although the vast majority of responses to the piece were positive, there were some environmentalists for whom the idea of giving up those chicken nuggets was impossible to swallow.

My favorite movie of last year was Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth (Al Gore for the Nobel Peace Prize!), but I have to admit that when I speak with environmentalists about the obvious waste and pollution involved in the totally unnecessary activity of meat consumption, I feel a lot like Mr. Gore trying to convince the U.S. Congress to take the issue of global warming seriously during his first term in the Congress. I thought I might discuss a few of the key concerns that were posted to the blog and that my meat-eating friends offer in defense of their continued meat consumption. So here we go:

Some were worried about thriving, physically, on a vegetarian diet.

Now this just does not make sense. Half of all Americans die of heart disease or cancer and two-thirds of us are overweight. The American Dietetic Association says that vegetarians have "lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease; ... lower blood cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer." Vegetarians, on average, are about one-third as likely to be overweight as meat-eaters.
~snip~
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.
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complete article w/links to other sources here

[nam78_two]

1. K&R.nt

[Reterr]

2. !

:kick:

[Lorien]

3. Probably a less acceptable truth than any other when it comes to

global warming. Many Americans WOULD rather die than give up beef! (I gave it up 13 years ago. Can't say that I miss it)!

[physioex]

4. I agree....

More people ought to cut down drastically.

[Cha]

5. Some can be quite healthy on

a vegan diet..since the mid eighties. Dennis Kucinich happens to be vegan.

I don't think everyone is built for it but it works out quite well for moi and totally organic thrown in for good measure.

Thanks for posting this, nosmokes.

I do think people eat too much meat, though. I notice when they talk about what they're having for dinner..it's not about the vetalbles or the grains, it's what animal they've zeroed in on for that particular repast.

[eppur_se_muova]

6. Related thread in Environment/Energy

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=81298&mesg_id=81298

[crispini]

7. K&R

[mainer]

8. Failed vegetarian here

We tried. We failed. But we own no carnivorous pets (well, with the exception of Hannibal, our goldfish, who ate up all the other fish in the tank) so overall, as an American household, we consume a lot less meat than the vegetarians I know who own two or three huge dogs.

And yes, I know about vegetarian diets for dogs and cats. But none of my veggie friends would dream of putting their pets on that.

[scarletwoman]

10. I do believe that humans occupy an ecological niche same as any animal.

I was vegetarian for many years -- didn't give up yogurt or eggs -- and later became piscetarian (mostly fish I had caught myself). But I also ate moose meat when I lived in Alaska -- from a road killed moose which was given to me by virtue of having signed up on the "road kill" list set up for low income people in my area.

Here in Minnesota I am happy to get some venison once in awhile from friends who go deer hunting. I generally avoid beef, but if I'm a guest at someone else's table I will eat what is served. (I got all my vegetarian self-righteousness out of my system by the end of the 70s...)

It's not the eating of animals that is bad in itself -- animals eating other animals is a prominent feature of the natural world. It's how we go about supplying ourselves with animals to eat, and the fact that we could easily do with eating far less animals if we had any sense of living in harmony with the natural world.

sw

[Reterr]

17. I don't see what it has to do with self-righteousness

Maybe for some it does, for others it doesn't. No need for sweeping generalizations about meat-eaters or vegetarians :shrug:.
I gave up "mainstream" meat initially when I found out about factory-farming etc. etc.. Eventually I gave up organic, free-range etc. etc. because I had to admit, I would never be able to kill an animal myself and it seemed hypocritical to let someone else do all that for me and then eat something I could never bring myself to kill. I don't blame people for eating meat they kill themselves or going free-range etc.
I also see why many low-income people have no option sometimes but to eat at places like McDs, thanks to the corporations who are seeing to it that certain kinds of food remain low in price and certain others ridiculously expensive. I am a low-income person myself and I take the effort to avoid meat but I can see how its difficult for others.

But, people do these things for different reasons. Overall I would advocate eating at least less meat than we do now for the benefit of the planet as well as the other creatures sharing it with us, but not so we can all feel morally superior or something that shallow. Not every vegetarian is unpleasant and self-righteous and only doing it to feel superior to other people, sneer etc. Geesh....

[scarletwoman]

20. Geesh, yourself. If you read what I said carefully, you will note that I spoke only of my OWN

"vegetarian self-righteousness". If you want to take that as a "generalization", that's your thing.

I'm basically on your side, don't get all het up.

[Reterr]

24. Ok

:) -bit over-sensitive about it since there are some who think its only about self-righteousness. My bad.

[scarletwoman]

26. No problem. I get over-sensitive, too.

Peace,
sw

[Zhade]

111. "It's how we go about supplying ourselves with animals to eat"

Indeed! We must figure out a better way, while acknowledging that there will likely never, ever be a completely vegetarian Earth.

What do you think of the "vat-grown meat" idea? I mean, assuming safety and all that.

[flvegan]

22. I run a rescue, and all our dogs are vegetarian.

Your veggie friends seem to misunderstand that "omnivore" goes for the doggies too.

That statement is cats aside. My jury is still out on that one.

[Zhade]

112. Speaking of which - how is your dog?

I recall from our last, er, animated discussion that your dog was unwell. Are things better?

[flvegan]

149. Quite animated, as I recall, yes.

He's doing very well, thank you. His third chemo treatment is coming up shortly. Thank you for asking!

[kestrel91316]

85. A vegetarian cat is soon a dead cat. Cats are obligate carnivores.

And yes, this is a MEDICAL FACT, for those who are planning on calling me a liar or stupid, or a shill for pet food companies, lol.

[Red Right and BLUE]

9. I can stop patronizing businesses that are cruel to animals

and who are so GINORMOUS that they have to cut down rain forests to sell burgers...

But I'll be honest and unapologetic - I ain't gonna stop eating meat.

I applaud anyone who can and does stop, but to be honest, I've not met many people who didn't become overweight once they stopped.

And I don't belong to either school - "We're made to eat meat!" or "Our bodies were meant to be vegetarian!" because I just don't know. I just know how it is for me.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

11. My Wife And I Are Gettin Ready To Go To Outback. I'm Gonna Take A Bite Of My Big Juicy Steak, And

make sure I savor the flavor, while telling my wife about this thread and how that big juicy steak I'm eating is why greenland is melting.

Then we'll both probably laugh, and proceed to discuss real and rational reasons as to why global warming is occurring and why An Inconvenient Truth was compelling.

[donheld]

12. Save me some you silly meat eater you

:D

[nosmokes]

13. by all means, ignore science you don't like. shrubco does and look

where that's gotten us. so, definitely, if the facts put you out or make you uncomfortable, then fucking boot 'em.

[Reterr]

15. ....

:eyes:

[flvegan]

19. So you disagree, and believe

that the meat industry has nothing to do with global warming, yes?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

29. Nah.

I'm sure there's some contribution there, but then there are a gazillion contributing factors. I just personally think there are quite a few others to worry about first.

The author of the article and other articles I've seen referencing it are under the guise that they care about global warming, but that's all it is: A guise. It is really just a different angle for some to use to push their zealotry of veganism on others. At least that's my take on it anyway. Cause from where I sit, if there was sincerity about the global warming issue being the main factor, they'd be spending their time advocating for some of the far more prevalent causes of it as opposed to the one that merely suits their agenda.

[flvegan]

31. So, it's zealotry for the lot of them.

You HAVE looked into this, yes?

[nosmokes]

33. 18% of greenhouse gasses coming from cattle - i'd call that significant

i've seen other studies that have put the number as high 23%. if you factor in the depletion of the amazon as well i'd say you're talking about a major contributing source. so why does it matter if the choir is singing for methodist jesus or epicopal jesus as long as they're using the same hymnal?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

47. In All Seriousness, It Is A Contributing Factor. But Veganism Has Nothing To Do With The Answer.

There are many proposed solutions to significantly reducing the methane concentration released by large herds. Not one of them is to simply 'not eat meat'.

So after researching the topic, I guess I'm very pleased to find that there are already efforts underway and many solutions available to reduce this problem, all of which have NOTHING to do with reducing consumption of meat. So rejoice steak lovers!!! Eat your steaks guilt free! It is not our eating of meat that is the problem! :bounce:

[alarimer]

54. We can and should stop cutting down rainforests to feed them

The rainforests, more than almost any other habitat on the planet, is essentially the "lungs" of the planet. Those trees absorb a lot of CO2 and give off oxygen in the process of photosynthesis. We are losing this habitat at a rate of thousands of acres PER DAY, most of it going for crop land (in which a lot of the corn and grain is used to feed cows to provide beef for large hamburger chains). But the soil is so poor that in order to keep raising crops they have to keep clearing land. It is not possible to replant because once the original cover is gone, it can no longer sustain the same level of biodiversity and productivity. So the question is not really just about the amount of methane cows can produce.

Planting more trees elsewhere may help but it seems that the rainforests in South American are particularly beneficial as the "lungs" of the planet. Now we also need to stop producing CO2 from other sources: equip ALL power plants with scrubbers, regardless of the cost would go a long way. Stop burning so much fossil fuels is also a good idea. But what do we do with the CO2 already in the atmosphere that will continue to add to global warming even if we stop adding to it immediately? Stop cutting down trees for one thing. Als the oceans are a sink for CO2, so we need to stop polluting them as well.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

56. Agreed.

Personally, I think the rainforests are the most wondrous and magnificent places on earth. It tears me apart sometimes to think how easily we can facilitate their destruction.

[kestrel91316]

86. The problem with eating meat is that it promotes our

current wasteful (and yes, cruel) system of factory farming which is a HUGE energy hog. So there's the link to global warming for you.

That said, I cannot give meat up entirely myself. I happen to love an occasional beef stew, or home-ground steak burger, or roast chicken, or my annual pound of bacon. But I am much more aware of all my food choices lately, and especially try to eat food produced as closely to my community as possible. No more winter peaches from Chile for me.

[mainer]

73. What % of gases come from planes transporting veggies?

Just a thought. Think of all the supermarkets in cold climates. Where do they get their veggies from? How far did that lettuce fly? They sure didn't grow locally.

[nosmokes]

90. you might be surprised at the variety, quality and amount of greens that

can be grown in a high quality greenhouse or even a cold frame. i knew a dude in michigan that built cold frames out of scrounged materials from remodels and building sites and folks enjoyed fresh mesclun and tomatoes all through the winter. even when there was a few feet of snow on the ground.

and what do you think winter squash and similar vegetables are all about? dry varieties of potatoes and onions that are meantfor storage? yeah, winter isn't as much fun as summer when it comes to eating local, but it sure makes those strawberries and peaches that much sweeter when they do hit perfection. and there's something truly satisfying about opening up a jar of salsa that you made from the ripest of fresh ingredients last summer and and sitting down with some quesadillas and salsa to watch the dooper bowl in the dead of winter.

[mainer]

93. I guess I'll have to run out and build a cold frame

And grow all my winter vegetables and can and freeze.

I'll do it as soon as I finish everything else I have to do to make a living.

There are some of us who DO have to work.

[nosmokes]

101. or find a CSA that uses a high quality greenhouse. they exist.

and it's just like anything else, it's a matter of choices and priorities.build the coldframe this summer. but you can start scrounging the parts for it now. you need some 2X12s and double glazed storm windows thatyou can find at houses that are being remodeled or at window places where they got stiffed on special orders for cheap. you need hinges and weather stripping and the shiny board insulation stuff.( i'm having a brain fart right now and the name escapes me)you can find plans to use as an example in mother earth news and i wish i could tell you which issue but all of mine got lost or are still buried in a storage container from a move a few years back.

and nobody can do everything, but we can all do a little more than we think we can. and with any luck it might make a bit of difference.

i've never regretted taking action, be it going local and organic or marching in protests or writing letters or campaigning in the woods or speaking at meetings working on elections, but i've often wished i coulda done more. FWIW.

[roody]

108. Just eat what is in season. That is easy.

[Turn CO Blue]

95. Let me ask you: How do you

respond to the fact that there used to be over 60 million bison/buffulo in the area now called the United States of America before the 1600's up until the early 1800's?

The size of those buffalo and bison herds represents a significant output of methane, especially since bison/buffalo outeat and outweigh beef cattle by a great deal.

One source I looked up showed that the US slaughters about 48.2 million head of cattle per year.

Assuming that the cows have to mature for a year or two before they go to the slaughter house, it still doesn't seem to me like we have that many more beef cows around here than we used to have of bison - which was the population of bovines that Mother Nature originally intended to have living on this land mass, right?

[mainer]

103. I never knew that. Interesting.

With all the farmland and woods I happen to own (300 plus acres), I've thought of raising free-range pigs, who can subsist perfectly well on acorns. They would be environmentally neutral, I suspect.

Would using them for meat make me a big bad anti-environmentalist?

[Seabiscuit]

43. Took the words right out of my omnivorous mouth.

[MyNameGoesHere]

76. I challenge you to eat for 1 week

and not affect the environment at all. Nothing no impact whatever. Can you do it? If you can i will buy you a glass house.

[mondo joe]

23. Outback is yuck.

I ate there once, and thought they went heavy on quantity but commensurately low on quality.

That is all.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

28. Seriously? Sorry To Hear That. I Guess Locations Differ.

We love the one by us. The food is always top notch and satisfying and we both love their bread (though that part is free LOL)

[SOS]

83. Outback is hardcore Republican

By supporting Outback, the customer is directly funding the Republican Party.
They give 93% of their contributions to Republicans.
They give to such luminaries as Kyl, McConnell, Talent and Santorum:

http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/pacgot.asp?strID=C00253153&Cycle=2006

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

99. Don't Care. I Go There For My Fucking Dinner, Not Cause They Do Or Don't Align With My Politics.

This concept is obviously lost on some.

[Zhade]

116. OMC also drives an SUV and shops at Wal-Mart.

He's supporting the conservative establishment far more than his handle suggests.

That said, no one's perfect.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

138. So Are All Of Us. And I Barely Ever Shop At Walmart.

I'm just simply not going boycott anyone either.

And let's hope the SUV situation is history soon. Gotta look for a new vehicle, just damned if I know what with how much money they cost these days. Still need an SUV like car, but maybe like a chrysler pacifica or chevy hhr or somethin, that get like 30mpg highway. Just gotta see what I can find.

[NotGivingUp]

30. call it what it is...you're going to outback to munch on a cow...

and whether you like it or not it is part of the problem

[Kazak]

34. But it's true though...

Heck, I like the stuff too! :(

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

49. Feel Free To Continue Liking It. You're Eating Of It Isn't The Problem. No Need To Feel Guilt :o)

I was just researching it, and though it is a significant source of methane, the solutions proposed to reduce it have nothing to do with us or how much meat we eat. They all have to do with having bigger herds than necessary for what demand requires, eating habits, and ways to feed the cattle that significantly reduce their methane emissions. So though cattle cause a problem and the way they are raised and fed contribute, the solutions have all to do with methods and not how much meat we consume.

So eat that steak guilt free friend!

[orleans]

39. outback steakhouse: 98% RED!

(hope the steak was politically worth it)

sorry--just being a bitch, i know.
but check out the link on buyblue.org
http://www.buyblue.org/node/1625/view/summary

[retread]

51. While you are enjoying your dose of meat flavored hormones and antibiotics , chew on this:

http://www.opensecrets.org/softmoney/softcomp2.asp?txtName=Outback+Steakhouse&txtUltOrg=n&txtCycle=2004&txtSort=Amnt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

53. Don't Care.

If we all went around tracing where every penny of our spent money goes, and ensuring none of it went to CEO's who donate red, we'd all go insane and end up buying nothing at all.

Furthermore, they can donate to whomever they want. I don't choose a place to eat based on whether some high up CEO, who has NOTHING to do with the specific restaurant and its employees, has aligning political views. I go there cause I like the fucking food. Pretty simple, really.

[retread]

55. "Don't Care" was sufficient. n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

57. Don't Care.

I don't post or choose what to write based on what I think you consider to be sufficient or not. Get over yourself. :rofl:

[retread]

62. Enjoy your steak. n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

65. Already Did. It Was Quite Yummy. Cool Thing Is I Didn't Need Your Permission To Enjoy It, Either.

:hi:

[retread]

67. Right. Because you

"don't care."

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

68. About Your Judgments? Nope. Not One Iota.

:hi:

[retread]

69. Judgements? n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

71. No. Judgments.

[retread]

78. I think I know how this works. You arm yourself with flyswatter, light a candle, and

when us moths flutter to the flame you swat us. If we whimper or call you a bully you accuse us of not being able to stand up to an intellectual argument.

So when you see a thread on meat eating and global warming; you announce a trip to the Outhouse Steakhouse for a juicy steak and being one of those dumb-assed moths I fly right into that flame.

It's time for my carrots and broccoli. I look forward to flying into more flames on future threads.

Peace

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

81. Silly Little Moth.

Oh, and by the way, if ya don't mind me asking: Can you point me out to where you have offered any intellectual argument or anything of substance whatsoever in this thread? Can you please point that out to me? Cause, like, if ya haven't and such, then your entire post is worthless.

See, I've actually continued with other posts and explanations after posting an initially lighthearted and wiseassish harmless post. I haven't seen you actually provide any argument whatsoever other than presenting a seeming tone of self-righteous smugness.

I'd say I viewed you more as a mosquito, but I don't mind lettin you slide with moth.

[Zhade]

114. Come on. I love a thick steak, but we both know the OP made good points.

There ARE problems with how we get our meat, which we should solve.

[roody]

14. You don't have to quit eating meat; reduce your meateating.

Me. I've been vegetarian for 32 years. If you truly chew your food, you will notice that meat just does not break down. Maybe the real fatty stuff does.

[Batgirl]

16. I've felt queasy about consuming factory-farmed meat

since reading this mind boggling article:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/12840743/porks_dirty_secret_the_nations_top_hog_producer_is_also_one_of_americas_worst_polluters
after someone here at DU linked to it a few weeks ago.

I hadn't realized that pigs raised under factory farm conditions have such suppressed immune systems that they "remain in a state of dying until they're slaughtered" -- which is why they must be so heavily treated with antibiotics and insecticides.

I didn't realize that no matter now sick a pig is, as long as they give it enough drugs that it remains ambulatory, it can and is legal to sell it for human consumption.

And of course I never realized the big problem of how to dispose of all the pig shit, which collects in lagoons, and which, because it contains not only the poop, but all of these drugs and chemicals that are used to keep the pigs alive, is fatal to anyone who should accidentally fall in. I never knew that this poisonous glop has been known to leech into rivers and streams and destroy the creatures that live in them.

That's all in addition to reading about the horrible business practices of, in this instance, the Smithfield co.

I didn't actually make a decision not to eat pork after reading this article, but when I tried to put some pork chops in my grocery cart I couldn't do it. My last batch of chili was made with a soy product because I found my queasiness about the pigs extending to factory farmed beef. I don't feel virtuous or that I've changed my behavior on ethical grounds. I simply have an enduring sense of being grossed out.

Of course it's just anecdotal but in the weeks since my never-consciously-decided-upon dietary change I don't seem to need as many cups of coffee to feel awake during the day. I feel less lethargic and I've lost a few pounds. It makes me wonder exactly how all the drugs and chemicals that are used to produce meat on a grand commercial scale are affecting our health without us being aware. It seems the meat we eat is quite unlike the meat our grandparents ate.

[Coventina]

18. Your experience is a lot like mine

I quit eating beef in the early 90s, after reading the first article about mad cow.

I was horrified and disgusted beyond words that cows were being fed to other cows. I quit eating beef that day, and I've never regretted it or missed it.

I couldn't eat beef today any more than I could eat a human child, it has become that disgusting to me.

After a few years, the same "ick" factor kicked in for pork. It wasn't something I planned or anything, it just happened.

Then, it just kept going from there.......

Meat is just not worth it. Not from an ecological, moral or health standpoint.

There just isn't any justification. None.

[NashVegas]

48. Ever Read John Robbins?

Diet for a New America sent me to the vegetarians' table for about 6 years, when it first came out.

Since then, organic farms and organically-raised (I'm talking about the real deal, not the band-waggoneers who jumped in for the higher profits) livestock has become more readily available.

I don't eat meat often, perhaps 1-3 times per week. I can't imagine life without dairy products, frankly.

The important thing is to be sensible; research where your meat/animal products are coming from.

[Batgirl]

97. thanks, sounds worth checking out

I agree that being sensible is important. Avoiding factory farmed beef and pork just feels like the right thing for me personally after reading the Rolling Stone article. I think this turned out to be a worthwhile thread which conveys the idea that it's worthwhile to make even moderate changes.

[flvegan]

21. I'd love to read what "meat-eating friends offer in defense" actually.

Veg*ism is so rediculously easy these days, I fail to actually see a defense 95% of the time.

But then, it tastes good. I hear H2s ride nice. No dif.

[roody]

25. Let's go out for falafel. Yummmmmm.

[flvegan]

27. I'm sorry.

I think I might have missed your...jist.

[kineneb]

36. I have one

Hubby is a dialysis patient, with violent allergies to beans and coconut. Not only is he not supposed to eat legumes, he cannot. In fact, I am having a difficult time getting him to consume enough protein. He is supposed to eat 90 grams of protein per day and he is unable to eat that much food. And his digestive system is sensitive to the protein powders, liquids and bars.

I just try to feed him lots of eggs.

Dialysis patients are supposed to eat lots of high-quality, low-phosphorus protein, which means meat.

[flvegan]

150. Yes, you do.

That's why I don't tout the 100% that some do. There's someone here that was telling me about his (?) HIV treatment and that he needed meat, etc. I always keep that in the back of my mind.

Good luck with the dialysis. I hear that bison meat is especially high in quality protein (lots of the bodybuilders swear by it). I think it's expensive, though. I'm not terribly sure.

[NashVegas]

50. I Wouldn't Call It a Defense, Exactly

But we are descended from hunter-gatherers.

Everything we do, everything we purchase - everything - has an impact somewhere.

Chances are, unless you are sitting in a house of your own making, eating foods of your own growing, storing, and cooking (oh, and eating off of plates you threw on your own pottery wheel, etc.), walking to work, wearing clothes of your own textile-making and sewing, watching TV or using a computer of your own building, it's a safe bet that someone, somewhere, got shafted on the production line somewhere.

[BlooInBloo]

61. Caring what prescriptive vegetarians say is ALMOST as asinine as caring what christians say.

[BoneDaddy]

74. Amen

although there is some real good info out there about realistic issues with meat consumption, health, affect on environment etc, parts of the vegetarian crowd are as rabid in their fundamentalist beliefs as born agains. They are also guilty of shoving it down "meat eaters" throats like you see on this thread, which in turn, does not work.

[yewberry]

88. Care to point out where?

Where are these fundamentalist beliefs in this thread?

When we are called self-righteous? When the entire topic is dismissed out of hand and called the work of zealots? When people announce that they're going to ignore the environmental questions and eat a big steak and laugh about it? Where the reductio ad absurdum comes in and claims that making less environmental impact isn't any better than making more environmental impact? When we are called elitist or rabid fundamentalists?

There *are* elements in the veg*n crowd that can shove their beliefs down others' throats; I think that's crappy. There are also elements in the meater crowd that do exactly the same thing, which you can see on this thread. That is also crappy.

[mainer]

92. anyone who claims moral superiority because of

something as trivial as what they put in their mouths -- well, they ARE fundies.

Vegetarians should eat what they want. And leave the rest of us to eat what we want.

Or shall we take dietary sainthood to extremes? Why stop at beating up on carnivores? Let's criticize everyone who eats a salad in the wintertime. And move on to everyone who eats anything imported. We don't REALLY need to eat Italian cheeses, do we? In fact, let's criticize everyone who eats anything that's "furrin". The Irish should go back to eating nothing but potatoes and cabbages. Hawaiians should stick to breadfruit and coconuts. And those awful New Yorkers, with their exotic tastes -- how DARE they want to eat anything the least bit different?

[yewberry]

94. Point to the claims of moral superiority.

This thread is about the *environmental impact* of industrial meat production.

Where is anyone claiming sainthood? And where is the so-called beating up on meaters? Did you miss where, in this very thread, we are the people being called names and not you?

As I said, there are some in the veg*n crowd who do push their beliefs on others. The same can be said of the omni crowd. As for the "fundie" claim, thanks ever so much. It's so refreshing to be called names for no apparent reason.

[mainer]

102. If you don't beat up on us, then you're not a fundie

I'm not talking about people who are TOLERANT enough to allow others to eat meat.

I'm talking about those who tell me that I'm a "polluter" or "anti-earth" for wanting to eat what MY ANCESTORS (and yours) have eaten for millenia.

And anyone who disagrees with that should explain to me how human beings managed to move out of Africa and into Ice-Age Europe without eating meat.

[yewberry]

105. And if you don't beat up on us, neither are you.

Nobody gets to "allow" anyone to eat meat or not to eat meat. It's a choice, and we all hope it's an informed choice for everyone.


So why did you reply to my post with sarcasm and charges of moral superiority and "sainthood?"

You seem to have again overlooked exactly who is getting beat up here. There are belligerent, knee-jerk assholes on both sides, and behaving like a "fundie" isn't exclusive to either side of the discussion.

(And how anyone managed to move out of Africa into Ice-Age Europe has absolutely no bearing on either the OP or anything I've posted.)

[mainer]

106. I'm sorry, I guess I was being "knee-jerk"

maybe because I'm set upon by vegetarians all too often on on DU and in real life, who tell me they're SO much healthier and morally responsible. I'm tired of having to defend myself for being a carnivore. As Art Buchwald himself said (at least I think it was Art Buchwald): "who woulda guessed that a buncha people who eat rabbit food could be so ferocious?"

And I'm also tired of vegetarians who keep claiming that human beings are MEANT to be vegetarians. They haven't yet explained to me how humans migrated out of Africa without carnivorous behavior.

[yewberry]

113. Okay.

I get that.

I know it's true that that happens. Please understand that it's also true for us. I can just be minding my own little life, and people come along and pin me with self-righteous, elitist, fundie, nanny-stater, hypocrite, weakling tags. I'm tired of having to defend myself, too.

And, Christ, the jokes! I could live the rest of my life without hearing those same, tired jokes! Gah!

[Zhade]

118. While I believe you are not one of those holier-than-thou types, they exist on this thread.

"Meat is just not worth it. Not from an ecological, moral or health standpoint.

There just isn't any justification. None."

That's pretty much what the other poster was describing.

Of course, posting just to say you're going to fund Republicans by chowing down at Outback is also being a dick.

[yewberry]

130. I did see that

and that's why I always try to talk about the issue and decision as it relates to {b]my own moral framework.

While the inference could surely be drawn that she is claiming a moral high ground, it's hardly the same thing as "glassy-eyed fundamentalists drunk on their own self-righteous axiomatic certitudes" as far as insults go.

(And yeah, the dickiness meter did go off for one or two of the posts on this thread.)

[Zhade]

133. I've had my own share of dick-esque behavior on these threads.

Let me just say I appreciate the lack of "glassy-eyed fundamentalists drunk on their own self-righteous axiomatic certitudes" (man, that's a mouthful) from you and most of your fellow veggers.

Hell, chances are I'll be one of you someday, since I love salad like crazy (but I'll be honest, I will never go vegan).

[yewberry]

137. Well, I appreciate the decreased dickitude

since we had our last conversation about this.

It's funny--I seriously think it's a very small percentage of veg*ns that tends toward evangelism, and it's usually people new to it, so they just can't wait to share their new knowledge with the rest of the world. So those five asshole veg*ns make the quiet thousands that people never notice look like jerks by association...and the rest of us have to go around apologizing for our choices. Shitty deal.

Hey, make the choices that are right for you. If you ever want a recipe, it's yours. I promise I won't offer unless you ask.

[BoneDaddy]

135. I guess I have to take

anything from "tofunut" with a grain of salt. Small joke, I am sure you can come up with something equally blah with my name.

Re-read my post, I give a good measure of respect for the vegetarian argument. I just think it will have to get a helluva lot hotter on this planet to motivate the human species. I just get tired of the moral superiority of vegetarians, not unlike fundamental christians.

I got a huge kick out of the guy who said he was going out to get a steak. It was funny. You take yourselves to seriously... You don't have to save the world.

[yewberry]

136. I'm just not seeing

a lot of "shoving down your throat" on this thread, and I get tired of the incessant characterizations of veg*ns that way when it's not necessarily even happening.

As I've said before, there is an element of evangelism within the veg*n community (new veg*ns, usually :eyes:); at the same time, the same thing exists in the meat-eating camp. But then, you agree with them, so it's probably less noticeable to you. There are at least a half-dozen (conservatively) posts in this thread that are essentially baseless accusations or unreasoned digs at veg*nism--now, again, who exactly is acting like fundamentalist christians?

Sure, make what you will over my username; you wouldn't be the first. And please, spare me the dime-store psychoanalysis. Whether you thought the steak remark was funny (or utterly predictable, as I did) I'm not trying to save the world. I make the choices I make and the differences I make in my own way.

Please be courteous enough to not call me a rabid fundie for it.

[BoneDaddy]

147. I don't remember calling you a fundie

nor do I remember throwing all vegans/vegetarians under the bus. I said "some". As for pushing the agenda on a specific diet, I rarely, if ever, see a "you gotta eat meat" post or position as it usually is in response to someone pushing a non-meat diet.

As for "half a dozen" digs on vegans in the post, like I said above, it is usually in response to vegetarians blaming the world's problems on meat eaters in some way shape or fashion, like this post suggests, and the underlying judgement and demand that people change is usually what gets folks' dander up.

As for your name, I wrote that I was joking. Lighten up Francis.

[flvegan]

100. I'd love to respond to this.

That is, if it made any sense at all.

[Porcupine]

32. Guilty- Lately I've been eating MORE meat.

Due to being a single dad trying to keep to girls happy with the daily fare without undue difficulty. I can buy a chicken for $5 throw it in the oven with a sprinkling of salt/paprika along with some potatoes and frozen peas and I'm done. The kids are fed tonight. Tomorrow they get chicken taco's the next day chicken soup and the dog gets the second boil off the bones along with the fat and some brown rice to supplement the dog food.

I can get three days dinners for three people from a $5 chicken and $5 worth of sides, plus dog food. If I was going to try to feed my kids a vegtarian diet I would either have to spend three times the time in the kitchen or four times the money buying organic vegetarian entrees. I have neither the time nor the money. I hate to say it but americans don't have the cooking skills or culinary culture to eat a vegetarian diet for most people.

Most people think vegetarian fare is flavorless dreck and given the popularity of nightmare cookbooks like "The Moosewood Cookbook" and "Laurels Kitchen" they should. Good vegetarian cooking requires a higher quality of ingredients than is found in US supermarkets. The whole food system in the US needs to be revamped.

Simply telling people to not eat meat or to drive a Prius is simply NOT GOING TO WORK!! We need a change of culture that goes from the lowest person living on the streets to well...John Edwards house.

Americans spend too much time at work, driving to work, taking classes to improve their work options or otherwise not working and too poor to make these changes. People need real options not preachy bromides from folks rich enough to hire personal chef's.

For those of you who are practicing vegetarians who choose to shop at Whole Foods market (my family calls it "food for lots") good for you. It must be nice to have that kind of time and flexibility in your budget. The rest of us are trying to get some food into our kids and a little house-cleaning done before we collapse. Lets look for better solutions for ALL of us.

[LeftyMom]

35. Uh, it's perfectly possible to eat a veg diet w/o ever stepping in a whole foods.

I'd been vegan for years before we got one here. I still don't shop there, they're anti-union, their prices suck and they don't have much I can't get elsewhere for less.

But yeah, the Moosewood books pretty much suck. I'm rather fond of recipes that rely on simple foods and don't take much time to prepare, since I'm a cash and time strapped working single mom going to college. Lentils, rice, beans, pasta, potatoes and other simple plant foods are inexpensive and better for you than the prepared junk anyhow. There are plenty of great recipes for free on www.vegweb.com (and most have comments from people who've tried them out) and there are sections for "tried and true" and "kid friendly" foods. I have a few in my journal as well, I think you have to scroll back a page to find them.

As for prep time, a friend of mine (who has a cookbook coming out soon) and I were joking about Rachel Ray's 30 Minute Meals a while back- we both thought 30 minutes was entirely too long for a quick everyday dinner and wondered why omnivores found the concept so impressive, and he's a rabid food purist. Food preparation goes faster when you don't have to cook everything to death to keep it from killing you, and it takes much less time to chop veggies or rinse rice or beans than to trim the fat from a roast, yank the giblets out of a chicken and wash it or - god forbid- grate cheese.

I'm not trying to tell anybody how to live, but I do want to communicate that it's certainly possible to live veg*n on a very modest food budget and without a huge investment of time.

[Porcupine]

41. A vegetarian diet requires skill not common to US consumers.

Personal note: I worked for several years as a professional chef in high end restaurants.

When I go into the local Winco and buy my bulk spices, sugar, salt, hot cereal, flour etc. I am aware that most people around me are buying foods entirely wrapped in plastic. Box mixes, frozen entrees, grated cheese (when did we forget how to grate cheese?) sliced lunch-meat, white bread, soda, soda, soda, chips and beer. It's a tragedy.

Personally, I mix varieties of whole grain rice (brown, red, black) with barley and keep a cooked pot in my fridge at all times. I mix my own buckwheat pancake mix, I bake cakes from scratch. My kids eat soups and stews heavy on beans,(split pea this week) rice, barley, and vegetables. I shop at the local farmers market every week and I'm lucky enough to live where there is a year round farmers market. Just yesterday I was able to buy 15 lbs of local oranges and field raised eggs. I know the guy who bakes my bread on a first name basis. I probably purchase more of my diet from local farmers than 99% of people on DU. I'm lucky that way.

I eat meat. Not to be snotty or anything but making tasty, varied, vegetarian food is more work than I'm willing to go to. That one chicken, 12 eggs, and and about a chops worth of pork I average weekly for my little family makes a big difference in our sense of comfort. Making beens, rice, potatoes and corn taste like different stuff every meal is work. Or it's a really boring diet.

I have, like many of you, actually tried to help some of the more culinary impaired people around me improve their skills. As I see it most people do not care to learn the basics much less the finer points of cooking. Some just can't. Just look at the crap we use for cookware in this country; for shit's sake most people cook with teflon pans.

Until our culture changes vegetarians, vegans, or even light meat eaters like me will be a weird minority. Right now our culture prioritizes Lexus SUVs, ski vacations and mcmansions. My sister who has all of these things and a personal chef eats meat also. She can afford all the changes we talk about. What she has is a Prius, one of her five vehicles that are used in her two 3500 sq ft. houses.

So until you can change the culture of the 5% that use more resources than the 95% of the rest of us quit jumping down the throats of your neighbors.

I said I was guilty already. Sheesh.

[Batgirl]

148. great recipe link, thank you and bookmarked

It helps a lot to have good tasting veg options. I've noticed since adding more vegetables to my meals that I actually feel satisfied with fewer calories and am less susceptible to craving refined carbs. (Which I'm pretty sure wouldn't happen if I replaced steak with Pop-Tarts.) I was raised in a household where the food groups divided roughly into meat/gravy/donuts and have to make an effort not to cook that way. It's good to find out there are alternatives that aren't too pricey or time consuming.

A coworker told me how easy it is to whip up hummus at home. Just takes a few minutes in the blender and tastes better and is a cheap source of protein -- cheaper than store-bought. We made a batch this weekend, spread it on multi grain wraps and filled with cut up vegetables. The wraps tasted creamy and decadent and we felt we had eaten a substantial meal.

[yewberry]

37. I'm trying hard not to respond in kind.

Your assumptions are pretty astonishing and deeply unkind.

This post is about the *ecological* impact of the meat industry and how it affects the world on a large scale. Okay, that doesn't seem to sing to you. That's fine.

You seem to believe that your choices are proof that a veg*n diet doesn't/can't work for a "real" person.

"Americans spend too much time at work, driving to work, taking classes to improve their work options or otherwise not working and too poor to make these changes." Well, surprise surprise, we're Americans, too. We have the same pressures and problems as everyone else. We're not all "folks rich enough to hire personal chef's". I'd lay odds that you make a lot more money than I do, and that you spend a lot more on food that I do. Yes, I'm as busy as you are. Yes, my budget is at least as tight as yours. I've just made different choices than you have. That doesn't make me a bad person. That doesn't make you a bad person.

"For those of you who are practicing vegetarians who choose to shop at Whole Foods market (my family calls it "food for lots") good for you. It must be nice to have that kind of time and flexibility in your budget. I can't afford to shop at "Whole Paycheck" (what we call it) either. Hell, I am so broke that I can only shop at the produce stands in the International District. I have neither extra time nor extra money for luxuries. It must be nice to feel free to judge others based on your uninformed perceptions.

"The rest of us are trying to get some food into our kids and a little house-cleaning done before we collapse. Unlike other people who are doing the same? Come on--your choices are your own. Please don't demonize people who make choices that aren't the same ones you make.

[LeftyMom]

38. Diet is the thing most of us can change.

I can't afford to get a more efficient car tomorrow, next week or next year. Can't get a front-loading washer or put dual pane windows in this winter either. Why? Because they might save money in the long run, but in the short run they cost money I don't have.

I can eat low on the food chain and doing so stretched my rather meager food budget. It's a hell of a lot cheaper to grab a pound of lentils and a pound of rice (cost about $2) potatoes and soymilk or stock (about $4) or some tomatoes (canned in winter, fresh in summer) an onion, a bell pepper, pasta and a loaf of bread (<$5-7, depending on where I'm at, some places overcharge for decent bread) and there's enough food there for several meals. Heck if I know what meat's running these days, but I know it's not that cheap.

[orleans]

40. very interesting thread & the link you put up. i have just spent at least

an hour reading the original essay and then clicking links and reading about fish, cows, and a bit about chickens.

in a perfect world i would have the time & talent to cook vegetarian. in a perfect world my family would eat anything i cooked including vegetarian.

but it's all a good reminder of how things are out there (outside our four walls) and can give some of us something to strive for.

we have cut back on a lot of animal intake over the last number of years, but ... basically i do the best i can. with an open mind. and a heart that is in the right place.

thank you for this interesting thread and the links that came from it.

[JCMach1]

42. Growing food is a dirty business as well- if all were vegetarians

it would be extremely difficult to do that on an organically grown basis. So, factory farming would remain the norm.

Big agriculture can also be bad for the environment.


I will keep eating meat, just eat wisely.

[dysfunctional press]

44. i will be ENJOYING red meat and fish for as long as i live.

nt

[MadHound]

45. While I agree that we need to get rid of factory farming,

There is still a need to keep domestic animals raised for meat in the mix on small and/or organic farms. Manure, a vital ingredient in the organic growing cycle. Cow, pig, sheep, horse manure is what makes the veggies grow. You don't have it, then you're either going to either use petro based fertilizers or you won't be farming at all within a few years.

And if you're going to raise livestock, you might as well market it at some point. Keeping around such animals simply for their manure is a huge cost to the farmer, one that most couldn't afford.

It is part of an organic cycle on the farm, one that we need to get back to.

[knitter4democracy]

46. I was vegetarian for health reasons, then I had surgery.

After that, I had the worst cravings for meat, and I believe that I need to eat what I am craving unless I can figure out what's causing the craving. I tried and tried, but nothing worked, so I ate some organic, free-range beef. Cravings satisfied, I started looking for better meats to eat.

Now, we avoid beef almost entirely (we still have some grass-fed, locally raised beef in the freezer) and instead eat locally raised bison (they graze on a reclaimed gravel pit) and better chicken (from an amish farm not too far away--no antibiotics, vegetarian feed, more room in the barns). I have very, very low iron after two surgeries in seven months (the second one of which was major surgery), and I'm on an iron supplement but have to eat more of it in my diet (and yes, I'm doing veggie kinds, too) in order to make up for the bleeding I apparently still have that's robbing my body of iron.

After living both ways, I say that we need to be conscious of what we eat and where it comes from and support local farmers whenever possible but that getting judgemental or weird about it just won't help anyone. I've converted my mom and my MIL to bison (fairly free range, higher in protein, lower in fat, and local farmers trying to survive), and we keep our veggie cheese and favorite veggie meals, too.

[Zhade]

121. Very sensible. Here's to a full recovery!

:)

[knitter4democracy]

146. Thank you. I hope I finally get healthy soon, too.

:hi:

[Jed Dilligan]

52. Soybean fields could wreck the planet just as well

The problem is where and how, not what, is grown.

[Lorien]

58. Most soy is grown for cattle consumption

and it takes far more land to feed a cow than it does to feed a human being.

[Jed Dilligan]

152. How much grass would be enough for a person to live on?

There is no good reason to feed corn or soybeans to grass-eating animals.

[LeftyMom]

59. 90% of US corn and soy production are used in animal feed

:shrug:

[Jed Dilligan]

151. A practice I don't support

I would never buy corn or soy fed beef.

[BlooInBloo]

60. Are there any pro athletes (in a REAL sport) that are vegetarians?

[LeftyMom]

63. Yes. Use the google.

:eyes:

[yewberry]

64. What's a REAL sport?

Tennis? Football? Basketball? Track & field?

Yes.

[BlooInBloo]

70. Football, basketball, soccer, hockey....

The rest are either fringe (not large enough professional population), or else aren't sports (but rather *games*, like ping-pong and baseball).

[MadHound]

79. LOL, way to show your cultural ignorance and bias

Ping Pong(more properly known as table tennis) is a huuuge sport throughout Asia. If you are going to play this sport at a professional level, you've got to have the same sorts of skills needed in other more Euro/American centered sports. Good hand eye coordiantion, great strength and stamina, and the ability to make tactical decisions in a fraction of a second(unlike the decision making window allowed to quarterbacks, which sometimes goes into the double digits of seconds).

I would suggest sometime that if you get the chance, go watch some real table tennis play. It is an entirely different game than from what you play in your basement.

There are also many other sports that are either ignored or belittled in the West simply out of cultural ignorance. Really a shame too.

[yewberry]

82. The answer is still going to be yes.

Are you questioning whether or not athletes can actually thrive without meat? Why ask about only pro sports?

Anyway, Robbie Earle, Dwayne DeRosario, Roa Roa, Bill Walton, Billie Jean King, Martina Navratilova, Lawrence Phillips, Gianluca Vialli, Carl Lewis (I guess that's not a pro sport, though)--there are a fair few. You could google it.

Also, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=231x13102

[Zhade]

122. I love meat, and even I think that's a pretty insulting question.

Sheesh!

[LWolf]

66. This is just one facet of the food issue.

Before people begin to "give up" foods, we ought to make sure that what gets sold as "food" is really food. Sometimes I feel like most of what is in the local grocery store, by the time it's done being refined, processed, and filled with additives, bears little resemblance to food.

If people are going to give up meat, they need healthy sources of alternative proteins. I don't know if people need to become vegetarian or vegan, but I think we need to move away from factory farming. Any meat produced large-scale is likely to be less healthy and unfriendly to the environment.

What if people ate less meat, and different meat? What if people ate only meat produced locally, small-scale?

I don't know how to feed cities of millions that can't raise their own food.
:shrug:

I do know that a few chickens, geese, and sheep don't have a big impact on my place. I do have to buy some grass hay and grain to get through the winter; all grown locally. While I haven't gone this far with it yet, that's enough to provide eggs, poultry, meat, and milk products. I haven't played around with milking sheep, but I know it's done in other places.

[mainer]

72. If you live in a cold climate? Where do veggies come from?

during the winter, anyone who lives in northern states must buy veggies that are grown, and flown in from, long distances. Raspberries from South America, tangerines from Spain, lettuce from California, tomatoes from Holland. Wouldn't it be better for the environment to eat chickens grown and slaughtered in your own area? Think of all the jet fuel that's expended in transporting perishable fruits and vegetables to you. Meat, at least, can be frozen and stored locally.

[MadHound]

75. They come from your freezer, or from jars that you put up in the fall

Or from bags of dehydrated fruits and veggies that you dried in the fall. So many people have gotten away from the notion of preserving and storing their own food, instead they feel the need to go down to the corner grocer and buy that shit that was flown in from Mexico, or California, or where ever.

I've just started preserving my own food, and it really is pretty easy. Canning food is quickly becoming a lost art, but something that is easy to pick up and do yourself. We've got enough canned veggies to last us until spring. We've frozen a bunch of blackberries and raspberries that we harvest last fall, and they are great little treats right out of the freezer. I've dried apples and mushrooms and various other fruits and veggies, and they are fantastic.

Even if you don't grow your own food, purchase enough from your local farmers market to last you through the winter and preserve it yourself.

[knitter4democracy]

80. That's how I was raised and is what I still do.

The deep freezer is amazing--although, today, I could turn it off with a high of two degrees.

We buy local as much as possible--our meat is local, we belong to a CSA farm that delivers produce all spring, summer, and much of fall (and then I freeze the leftovers and put them up for the rest of the year), and I get as much from my state as possible. Michigan produces an amazing amount of fruits and veggies during the warmer months, and it's the best I can find. It's worth putting up. The strawberries last summer were the best in years.

[Zhade]

125. Pardon my ignorance - what's a CSA?

NT!

[yewberry]

131. Community supported agriculture.

Essentially, you give them a certain amount of money at the beginning of the season, and they supply you with fresh fruit/vegetables/herbs/flowers weekly.

It generally works out to be a pretty good deal, and you get all kinds of things that you might not normally try. It's really fun. I joined one a while back, and they even sent recipes out with the boxes for the more esoteric items.

[Zhade]

132. Hey, that sounds awesome!

I've got to look into one here in L.A.

Thanks for the reply!

[yewberry]

134. It REALLY is.

Most CSAs invite members to come check out their places, so you can really see where your food is coming from. Fresh, ogranic, beautiful food (often delivered to you!) for less than it would cost to buy traditionally!

I actually got stuff that I didn't recognize (turned out to lemon cucumbers!) and made foods that I'd have never tried otherwise. We loved it.

[knitter4democracy]

145. Ours is a farm network that delivers whatever's fresh.

They pick everything that morning or the night before and then divide it up amongst their customers and deliver it all door-to-door. If you agree to help deliver, you get a break on the cost.

We get our free-range eggs, the best tomatoes ever, and even my strawberries for freezer jam from them. There are several family farms involved now, and some are from a bit further afield but still within the state, and we love it. I miss them over the winter.

[mainer]

91. So no fresh leafy ANYTHING for six months?

Nothing but canned and frozen veggies?

No salads, no crispy broccoli, no grapefruits?

Sorry. That thought is even worse than giving up meat.

[MadHound]

98. Frozen isn't bad friend, but yes essentially no fresh, out of the ground produce

This is how our ancestors lived for generations after all, and they lived within the enviroment. Now here we are getting freshly picked produce flown and trucked up from Central America, wasting energy, polluting the Earth, all for that fresh salad on your dinner plate.

So, you are left with a dilema, live within the enviroment, learn preservation techniques, leave as little impact on the earth as possible, and we just might survive. Or continue to demand freshly picked greens on your dinner plate, continue to be part of the problem instead of the solution, and contendedly munch away as our planet tips right over the cliff of no return.

You can't live a healthy life on meat alone friend, so you will need fruit and veggies. How you choose to procur them is up to you, but please recognize that many things ride on your choice. It isn't a matter of canned vs fresh or other personal preferences. It is the choice between living a selfish life outside of nature, or a life that works with and within the grand natural scheme.

[Zhade]

124. Sounds nice, but not viable for people like me.

I live in a bachelor apartment, without even a proper kitchen. There is literally no room for your solutions - no room for storage.

Any suggestions?

[MadHound]

143. Freeze and dry as much as possible

Both methods take up less space than canning. Also, at least back in the day, most cities had freezer space one coud rent out, from places known as locker plants. I don't know if your town has this, probably not but it is worth a look.

[Zhade]

123. What, there can't be greenhouses and such up north?

NT!

[and-justice-for-all]

77. I have not had RED MEAT for almost a year.

I live with a carnivore and succumb to chicken once in awhile, but thats it. I don't even drink Milk anymore, for one thing I have an allergy to it and secondly dairy farms are not pleasant places for a Cow and her calf who is forced out from nursing properly and then turned into veal.

I stopped eating meat because I was contributing to animal cruelty and my conscience could not deal with it once I found out the truth. After I stopped eating meat and drinking milk, I lost 15lbs. I can not see Vegetarians as being over weight unless its Thyroid or genetic reasons.

MEAT, is bad for you. Humans are not designed for large consumptions of Red Meat or other heavy meat products. You are better off, by at the very least, reducing your Metal intake if not halting it together.

[mainer]

104. The vegetarians I know are over-weight

and they gained weight AFTER they became vegetarians. It has to do with all the carbohydrates they're eating to replace the fats and protein they had to give up.

I'm not talking about simply "plump" I'm talking about OVERWEIGHT.

There's a reason the Atkins Diet works.

[roody]

107. I am an overweight vegetarian

because of ice cream.

[Zhade]

127. LOL! The diet by the guy who died obese with heart problems?

You had me until that crock.

[laundry_queen]

141. He did not die obese with heart problems.

You know, don't believe what the corporate media has to say and all that....I'm pretty sure he died of a fall that knocked him into a coma (eventually leading to aforementioned heart problems but it's not like he could control THAT.)

But seriously, for some people, myself included, a vegetarian diet has too many carbs. I have severe insulin resistance and even too many legumes and beans not balanced by some meat can cause too many swings in my blood sugar. Too many carbs leave me ravenous, even if they are all high fibre, nutrient dense carbs. I have tried to go vegetarian, vegan and even raw. All leave me absolutely ravenous and I have gained weight on all of them. I can eat less and feel more satisfied if I have a serving of meat with every meal, and my blood sugars are far more stable. I load up on veggies too. Don't get me wrong, I eat some carbs, just make sure most are from veggies or whole grains. And contrary to popular belief, there are carbs in the Atkins diet, just not the first 2 weeks of it. Oh, I'm not ON Atkins, but there are some very valuable tips in his books. Anyhow, for certain types of people, diets like Atkins can help where other types of diets fail.

And in keeping with the theme in the thread, we eat meat but try as much as possible to get it from local organic farmers. We normally get 1/2 cow a year, and quite a few chickens. It doesn't solve the whole problem but it keeps our money away from the factory farms.

[laundry_queen]

142. Okay I may have been wrong.

I just checked snopes.
http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp

Now, the part that gets me is this:
"It is known Robert Atkins did indeed weather a heart attack during his lifetime. In April 2002, the diet guru issued a statement saying he was recovering from cardiac arrest related to a heart infection he had suffered from "for a few years." He said it was "in no way related to diet." "

I know this comment probably cracks some people up, but it very well could true. A good friend of mine's husband suffered a heart attack earlier this year. He ate a stellar diet, fish/rice/veggies most of the time, was slim, trim and very active. He was quite young also, in his 30's. No family history of heart disease. After his heart attack he had a myriad of tests, none of which showed any narrowing in any of his ateries, no thickening, no fatty deposits, nothing. His cholesterol was good. Blood pressure low. In the end the only explanation the doctors could come up with was a virus that may have infected his heart. So it is possible. :)

[kestrel91316]

84. You DON'T have to have manure to put into the soil for fertility,

though it is a convenient way to do so. Crop rotation with crop residues being turn under, plus growing nitrogen-fixers as part of the rotation, works quite well. Then there's the use of charcoal as a soil conditioner/long-term fertility booster a la Terra Preta that is in its infancy but shows GREAT promise.

And we don't need livestock manure. The human population of this country produces more than enough manure to keep our soils fertile, but we have this bizarre compulsion to throw it into good drinking water and then dump it all into aquatic ecosystems so it can kill off fish.

[nosmokes]

89. animal manure, i believe, is an essential ingredient for a complete healthy

soil. i think it was one of the smaller colleges somewhere in the northwest US did a 10(?) year study of 2 plots side by side, identical in every respect except that sheep and cow manure was used in the compost piles of one and not the other. the veg produved in the manure plot consistently had higher levels of trace minerals and the the overall health of the plants in the manure plot tended to be healthier and more robust. they found there was a lot more microbial activity in the soil of the manure plot as opposed the green manure plot. that was only one of the findings. i did a quick google and didn't find it but i'll look more later if ya want. humboldt state maybe? or gonzaga?

[kestrel91316]

128. If they use charcoal a la Terra Preta, they don't NEED near as

many minerals (and those can come from mineral sources, lol, BTW) because there is little or no leaching (especially potassium).

Rock phosphate is a mineral dust that provides a long-term P boost. Kelp is a great K source, IIRC.

[druidity33]

87. getting ready for the game...

Got some tofu pups, salsa and chips, bread and hummus, veggies, and of course some beer in the fridge. Might make some TVP tacos later too!

:)

[progressivebydesign]

96. I don't eat red meat, and eat poultry maybe once a week.

Not for environemental reasons, but more for sentimental reasons.

[Dastard Stepchild]

109. I don't eat meat because I love animals...

but these other reasons are nice, too. ;)

[Zhade]

110. There are indeed problems with how we procure meat, no question.

Given that there will always be meat-eaters - sorry, vegetarians, it's in our genes, and you're just going to have to accept that people will make choices you disagree with - we should reduce and eliminate the problems, especially the cruelty and environmentally-damaging practices.

Meat-eaters ate animals for tens of thousands of years without causing these issues. It's mechanization and industry that have exarcerbated them, and science which must solve them.

It can be done, but there must be support for change.

[Warren DeMontague]

115. If someone thinks not eating any meat at all is a requirement for "spiritual growth"

then that's all well and good;

still, if we are to continue evolving - physically, emotionally, and spiritually -we really do have to look at how our dinner choices affect not only the environment, but even more importantly, the well-being (or intense suffering) of other creatures. So yes, on the one hand, the move to eating a plant based diet may look extreme because most people don't do it. But on the other hand, we can still have our BBQ (soy dogs and veggie burgers) and feel good about it.

...But you know what? If that's her admittedly un-scientific belief, opinion and agenda, she shouldn't wrap it in the patina of environmentalism to try to peddle it off on people. Unfortunately, like many other glassy-eyed fundamentalists drunk on their own self-righteous axiomatic certitudes, whether they be that a fertilized egg one second after conception= a "baby" or a chicken at Col. Sanders = a holocaust victim, she feels the moral imperative of her agenda requires her to go through the standard playbook of misrepresentation, obfuscation, and hijacking of other issues.

Would greenhouse gases diminish if all humans immediately stopped eating all meat? Possibly. But certainly not nearly as much as if we all immediately stopped driving or abandoned the tools of the industrial revolution. More importantly, none of those things are going to happen- and the answers to global warming come from realistic approaches to our problems, not bitching at people that they need to live in yurts and abandon indoor plumbing. Preaching at folks that they need to stop eating meat or they can't help the environment is just going to result in a lot of alienated meat-eaters going "fuck it".

As the OP mentions, free range and organic farming is preferable to factory farming; but to the PETA absolutist, free range poultry is "just as bad" as rainforest beef, because the point isn't really to save the environment; the point is to give animals equal rights to humans, and faux environmentalism is just one more way to get there.

Just like, for your nutjob pro-lifer, a reasonable approach to reducing abortions like promoting safe, effective birth control isn't acceptable- because the real agenda isn't so much abortion as it is granting 14th amendment rights to fertilized eggs, and making it against the law to fuck outside the confines of a Christ-centered marriage.

[flvegan]

119. So, this is little more than "preaching" from..."PETA absolutists" eh?

The simple act of changing your diet matters not, because you're not stopping driving or living in a hut?

Fucking spare me.

[Warren DeMontague]

139. Yeppo.

People who give up eating beef for environmental reasons, or who ride bicycles, or who put solar panels on their house? Good for them. Good for all of us who are working to make our personal choices have less of an impact on the planet.

But this is about singling out one personal choice and inflating it to the height of, "if you still eat meat, you're not really an environmentalist". Arguing- not because of science, but because of a quasi-religious belief- that meat eating trumps all else in the environmental issues facing the Earth.

Don't eat meat, for whatever reasons? Again, good for you. I don't know anyone who takes issue with that. It's the proselytizing that gets tiresome.

Or perhaps you think

we have to stop eating meat to continue 'evolving spiritually'

really does constitute a scientific statement that has any the jack diddly doodly-hoo flying Philadelphia fuck to do with the environment.

[Zhade]

129. ...

What the hell is a yurt?

(Good post, btw. I don't care for woo-woo bullshit hiding personal agendas either, though of course I'm sure we both agree that we need to find better ways to procure meat, as vegetarianism will never be supported by the entire planet.)

[Warren DeMontague]

140. Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yurt

I'm sure some are very nice.

And yeah- hell, I haven't eaten red meat for years, although I do eat free range poultry and sustainable fish-- but again, this isn't "certainly a plant-based diet can be good for many people, factory farming is bad and here's why, let's work to improve both the process and the conditions via which meat is brought to the people who do eat it.". This is the same old warmed over crap about how the truly enlightened spiritually advanced among us have moved beyond animal protein, and so of course the rest of us need the "good news" so that we, too, can "spiritually evolve" (i.e. be "saved").

Which sounds strangely familiar to these ears.

Or, as you put it, woo-woo bullshit.

[GoneOffShore]

117. I would suggest reading Michael Pollan

He wrote "The Omnivores Dilemma", which I'm in the middle of reading.

Last week in the Sunday NYT Magazine he wrote on "Nutritionism" which examined how the Western diet, which I believe, he actually meant the American diet has lost its roots. I especially loved the lede on the story. "Eat food. Not too much. Plant mostly." Less meat, but some because we are omnivores and need that protein. And eat things that your great-great-grandmother would recognize as food.

[lonestarnot]

120. I have cut back on the meat intake, but I can't give it up all the way yet.

[Meshuga]

126. Very inconvenient truth indeed!

I love a juicy steak!

[Greyhound]

144. You're absolutely right, John Robbins book convinced me like 20

years ago, but it just tastes so good.