Tech Companies Tell Congress: American Workers Are Stupid, So We Need More Insourcing & Outsourcing.

[The Cleaner]

WASHINGTON, June 24 — Bill Gates and Steven A. Ballmer of Microsoft have led a parade of high-tech executives to Capitol Hill, urging lawmakers to provide more visas for temporary foreign workers and permanent immigrants who can fill critical jobs.

Google has reminded senators that one of its founders, Sergey Brin, came from the Soviet Union as a young boy. To stay competitive in a “knowledge-based economy,” company officials have said, Google needs to hire many more immigrants as software engineers, mathematicians and computer scientists...

High-tech companies want to be able to hire larger numbers of well-educated, foreign-born professionals who, they say, can help them succeed in the global economy. For these scientists and engineers, they seek permanent-residence visas, known as green cards, and H-1B visas. The H-1B program provides temporary work visas for people who have university degrees or the equivalent to fill jobs in specialty occupations including health care and technology. The Senate bill would expand the number of work visas for skilled professionals, but high-tech companies say the proposed increase is not nearly enough.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/25/technology/25tech.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

:mad::mad::mad::mad:

[smiley_glad_hands]

1. Horse shit.

Greedy bastards is what they are.

[The Cleaner]

2. Yes -

and the excuse that they simply can't find any Americans to fill those jobs is equally bogus.

In the 1990s they were training American college grads - TRAINING THEM ON THE JOB - for jobs like programming, web, and database. And paying them big money too. I think once companies saw the "golden egg" of outsourcing and H1B visas, which pay workers far less usually w/no benefits, they sought to come up with lame excuses as to how they can't find any more qualified American workers, etc.

And now apparently Labor and Commerce are both promoting how to hire foreign workers over Americans, practices of placing fake ads in newspapers, etc. are becoming more commonplace.

It really burns me up...

[notadmblnd]

4. the other thing you have to remember is that these people don't know their rights

so whatever company taking them on can exploit their labor to the fullest under threat of being sent home.

[The Cleaner]

7. Yes, that is true...

People think slavery was abolished years ago, but in so many respects, it's still as strong as ever.

I also think of the case of the mariana islands...and good 'ol "I follow Jesus" Tom DeLay pushing for his corrupt version of "free market capitalism" over and above human rights.

The world must address the human rights issue!

[Solo_in_MD]

8. Actually its not

Americans are staying away from subject with decimal points these days. Comp Sci, Physics, Chemistry...the hard stuff. You can not OJT someone to a BS or MS in those areas. Americans with degrees in those areas are doing very well in terms of $$$.

[Le Taz Hot]

11. Really?

And yet, my husband with TWO science degrees took 14 months to get a job in the tech field paying less than he was making in college. Go figure.

[Solo_in_MD]

22. Anyone who is current seems to be getting snapped up from what I see

Does he have a teaching credential? Easy to get and a good fall back in hard times.

[Le Taz Hot]

26. My husband subscribes to

probably 25 different monthly/weekly publications to keep up, so your inference is wholly unfounded.

I hate to say it my friend, buy your time, too, is coming. It's coming for all of us.

[Solo_in_MD]

34. Currency is a perception

and so it can easily be misperceived. Has he considered teaching? I did for a while, and its my fall back.

[Johonny]

45. The best place to go

is a security position. There are many high tech national security jobs that require you to be an American citizen to get the job.

[originalpckelly]

15. Bullshit, even though those fields don't attract the same numbers as they used to...

there is a 2 to 1 ratio of the number of American college grads in those fields to the jobs available. I'd say that's a fairly good selection to pick from.

All they want is to not have to pay people a ton of money to program.

And even if what they say is true, why don't these fucking asshole companies that make a bundle off of America, do something really effective about it?

[Solo_in_MD]

23. Companies I work with are paying bonus money for technical degrees right now

Also programming really does not require a comp sci BS/MS. Coding can be taught fairly easily to without a degree or without a technical degree and just about anyone can program in VB and probably has. The hard stuff does require the academics and coursework.

Knuth Vol 3 is not OJT material.

[hootinholler]

27. WTF are you talking about? Knuth Vol 3?

:rofl: Knuth was OJT to me, but I'm a special case as I remember Dykstra's GoTo paper. Most whom I interview wouldn't know Knuth even existed, and with the popularism of the Gang of Four, most of Knuth is incorporated into the patterns for all practical purposes.

Companies are paying bonuses for clearances, not degrees. That leaves people like me with no degree but 20 years development experience and the desire not to obtain a clearance sucking hind tit to H1B salaries. I'm still 30% below my peak salary. Raises are running 4-6% against an obfuscated inflation measurement that my best guess puts at 7%. You recruiting?

-Hoot

[Solo_in_MD]

33. I can not imagine Knuth being OJT since its mostly theoretical algorithm analysis

Any Comp Sci student should know the name.

I had not considered the clearance issue, but MS is not looking for people with Gov clearances.

I'm a solo consultant working through a beltway bandit, lots of the bandits are looking hard all of DoD contractors are is looking hard for experienced help, but you said you were not interested in getting one. Silicon valley is picking up as well from what I have been told. I will be back there eventually myself.

[hootinholler]

37. I can't imagine Knuth comming up in an interview process to begin with...

But yes, it was OJT for me, back in the day. I was working on CD ROM seek optimization stuff back when they were S l o w devices (not that they're fast today).

About clearances, frankly I'm afraid to apply for a clearance, I might learn something that my morality would find actionable, especially in today's political environment. I've come close to that happening even without a clearance.

MS site reps hold clearances, but, that isn't the norm for MS, and MS isn't the only culprit in the H1B abuse game. There's a U-Tube titled "How not to hire an American" which was put up by the programmer's guild which highlights a seminar for HR people to help them legally circumvent the American first requirement of the H1B program.

-Hoot

[Solo_in_MD]

54. I have been known to ask CS and CE majors about Knuth...

More conversationally than as a go/nogo thing. Get some very interesting responses.

[The Cleaner]

41. You're living in DC and looking thru rose-colored glasses!

That's the reason for your blind optimism. DC has always thrived in the government contractor arena, but especially now with Bush in office and his pet war in Iraq. That's why you're seeing what you are seeing...but virtually every other part of the country is not seeing the same thing.

I worked for several DC area contractors and government contracting work is ubiquitos in that city. That's one reason it has always been somewhat recession proof.

[Solo_in_MD]

53. Only for last few years and trying like heck to get out of here

and back to CA.

[The Cleaner]

55. Oh? You don't like the 2-hour Beltway commutes?

DC roads are hard to deal with because only ONE bridge goes over the Potomac from MD to VA - the American Legion! I guess it preserves the park systems but still, grrr.

At least you have Trader Joes...

And Alexandria and the waterfront...and Great Falls...

And Bush just a few miles from you!
:sarcasm:

[Solo_in_MD]

56. I live just inside MD and commute on a MC weather permitting, Metro otherwise.

Family did a year here while wife was on sabbatical. I found a very well paying job so stayed on to fill the kids college funds. No vacation pay, no insurance, no seniority, no nothing but the pay check. Wife's benefits cover us. I get home to CA about once a month.

[RC Quake]

38. Where are these American college grads when you need them?

We just finished an 18 month search for a programmer. Pay isn't great @ $90,000, but over the 18 months we received 228 applications, of which we interviewed 13. A year and a half to fill a position in a University is ludicrous. University-wide, we have over 100 open positions, and there just aren't qualified people to fill them.

I think it's a very sad state of affairs when the unemployment rate is so high, yet there are so many jobs that remain unfilled year after year. I just don't get it.

[The Cleaner]

42. I don't buy that at ALL.

MANY PEOPLE would KILL to make 90K/yr!! I bet your University HR received a HELL of a lot more resumes than that, unless it's a far away university or one not near a city.

One other problem is that many jobs now require not just the main skill set but the moon as well. For example they want traditional graphic designers to know Flash programming, XML, HTML, and java.

[RC Quake]

47. Okay.

I was the head of the search committee...buy what you like. I painstakingly went through EVERY resume that came through Human Resources. Programmers don't like to work in Universities. The pay is very limited as far as what they expect. The benefits are better than anything private industry can offer, but it's the paycheck they can't overlook. We finally filled the position with our 3rd offer. The first 2 wanted more money.

Facts are facts. Take some time to look up the job offers on university web-sites and monitor how long they remain unfilled. You would be amazed.

[The Cleaner]

57. Hmmmm, okay...point taken.

Guess I never thought about it that way. I am one that would enjoy university work just as much as other work, but hey, guess some are picky out there. I am also one that doesn't like contracting work, but okay you're right, many techies DO go for contracting work because it can pay far more.

Man, I feel like I've been living in a damn cave. Why would ANYONE turn down 90K - that's a hell of a lot of money to me. UNLESS - I live in a high cost of living city, DC, LA, Boston, NY, etc., where I absolutely need to earn the triple digits just to afford a roof over my head.

Well, I guess if I was an SAP expert and the average rate was $140K and I interviewed for a job at a much lower rate of $90K I'd take the former. But for myself, it's not just the pay, it's the location, the job security, the people, and the environment.

[The Cleaner]

20. I can see that in those hard science areas,

but we're talking about tech jobs here. And those you CAN train for, they certainly trained Americans in the 1990s (some companies did anyway).

If they really wanted to, these companies could damn well train any American to do these jobs. I am in tech and I have always found the jobs to be fairly straight forward once you learn how to perform a task. You just have to learn the language and the functionality.

[Firespirit]

28. Where?

I have a degree in Computer Science, graduated with honors, and I couldn't get offers from ANY place remotely related to my field of study. I ended up getting a job in politics because of blogging, of all things.

[Solo_in_MD]

35. Several recent Comp Sci grads I know had many more offers than they expected

Case in point was a recent UMBC Comp Sci honors grad who was offered signing bonuses up to $10K. She went Government IIRC to get some key experience before she heads to the private sector.

This seems to be a case of your miliegage may vary...no recent technical grads I know had a hard time finding a decent entry level job and many are getting courted heavily. Experienced ones, esp with leadership experience can pretty well pick there positions. And again, my visibility is mostly in the Gov sector.

[independentpiney]

13. Sometimes I've wondered if tech industry wages weren't overly inflated

when the industry was really taking off in the mid 80's, and if that hasn't contributed to the push to outsourcing and H1-B's. My wife was working for a startup and like you say, people were getting big bucks fresh out of college. I was a college graduate project manager in the environmental/construction industry making around 70k/year, and project managers in her company with a comparable level of education and less pm responsibility were making easily 2x that. I'm sure it leveled off some after the boom ended but i wonder if industry standard wages in the tech field are still high relative to comparable skill levels in other fields?

[Missy Vixen]

21. Divide the hours worked per week into salary

and you'll find that tech workers are not laughing their way to the bank. Most are exempt, so they don't get overtime, even with a 70-hour work week.

My husband's worked in the software industry for 20 years now. Yeah, we do okay, but he works long, LONG hours.

I might also mention that software companies from other countries are more than happy to scoop up American employees; their training and experience seems to be acceptable to those employers. Bill Gates does not want them because a) Microsoft STILL does not pay market rate, and b) Americans stupidly insist on wanting to see their families once in awhile. It's tough to maintain any kind of family life or relationships while employed by the Evil Empire.

Julie

p.s. We live ten miles from Redmond's campus.

[greenissexy]

25. Best post of the thread

You hit the nail on the head. I live about four miles SW from Microsoft so I know exactly what you're talking about.

I've found that after being a project or program manager for five start-ups and two larger companies that you are exactly right. I haven't had a vacation in almost 15 years, and I've only had one day off so far this year and the year is almost half over! Seven days a week for over a decade really sucks. I'm here at work around 14 hours per day average Mon-Fri, and about 10 hours a day on weekends plus I work from home early mornings and late nights. I realized in Feb that the last time I had seen my house in daylight was Thanksgiving Day. What I make per hour sucks. It really sucks. Almost all of the guys that have worked for me in the past worked more hours than that and make less. With overtime, I made much more money working in a grocery store as a cashier. Ballmer is being honest when he says he can't find qualified citizens for his sweatshop jobs. I'm being selfish here, but I'd rather see him hire an Indian who is happy to make that much money than an American who will be miserable.

College students are smart to stay out of technical fields. Being expected to work seven days a week with zero vacation sucks when you can get a much easier business degree to work only 40 hours, five days a week or be a teacher and work less than half the days of the year. As an example, the CPA's my wife works for take six weeks of vacation per year. I know know any programmers that have had six days off in a single year.

[Johonny]

48. That was my experience in silicon valley

The people working the Tech jobs lived far from work, never saw their house or family. There was a large influx of foreign labor that seemed more willing to work the hours and for less pay than their American co-workers.

[independentpiney]

30. Your post reinforces my point

Because managers and technical level employees in other industries also work the same types of hours with no overtime and minimal if any vacations, it's not unique to the hi-tech field. That's really a separate issue that applies to workplaces across the board. Lots of people work long, long hours. I don't know what the stats are, but if pay standards in the hitech field are way more than the average for comparable value work in other fields, i'd think there's bound to be a correction in some way eventually.Outsourcing and H1-Bs may be an easier out for the corps than trying to get american employees to accept that the work they're used to getting paid 175k for is really only worth 100k. And I'd suspect there's alot of people in this country working 70+ hours per week jobs who'd drool for an opportunity to do that job at 100k.

[The2ndWheel]

3. That's the result of global integration

There is no "America", "China", or "India". There certainly aren't "American" jobs.

If people want globalization, they have to take the good with the bad. You want the internet? Fine, but you have to accept many jobs being moved. You want easy travel? Fine, but again, you have to accept jobs easily moved. You want instant communication? Fine, but one more time...you get the picture.

There are 6.5+ billion people on this planet. There is increasingly one economic system. More and more people are being educated the same way the world over. A single language is becoming the language of business. There are fewer and fewer barriers to production.

Unfortunately, we can't just cherry pick the good stuff. There is a downside to everything and anything, and this is the downside of what is becoming a globalized mono-culture.

[fasttense]

6. There is another way to handle globalization without making the middle class bear the brunt

of the down side. Globalization does not have to include authorization to use child labor, prison labor, indentured servitude and starvation wages. Globalization could include labor and safety standards. Trade agreements could simply include enforceable fair wage and safety standards. Tariff and tax penalties could be included for failure to meet those standards.

But as trade agreements are written today, there are no enforceable wage, labor or safety standards. It is a free for all. Instead of creating fair and intelligent trade deals with foreign countries, we open the door for every crook and con out there. There is a better way but our government is run by corporatists and idiots.

[antigop]

17. Don't forget -- environmental standards

>>
there are no enforceable wage, labor or safety standards.
>>

[The2ndWheel]

18. I don't think it could work if that wasn't included

"Globalization does not have to include authorization to use child labor, prison labor, indentured servitude and starvation wages."

Why else would it happen if not to include those aspects?

The middle class is a fairly recent concept anyway. The only reason it came to be was that, for at least a small amount of time, the small labor pool had the upper hand(and some people in high office saw fit to grant we rabble a break). Today corporations have easy access to practically anyone on the planet, automation continues to find its way, and mass production has produced so much that the products are very cheap, and you don't need a Henry Ford anymore(and if he was around today, he wouldn't have to pay his workers more). Plus everyone lives on credit anyway.

If the middle class doesn't take an additional brunt, who will? The lower class has nothing left to give, and the wealthy class is wealthy for a reason.

In my mind, globalization only makes sense if everything is cheap(products, people, life in general).

[pampango]

19. Labor, safety and environmental standards should be a part of all

our trading agreements. Not so sure about wage standards. Poor countries, by definition, have workers who make much less than American workers make.

When I lived in the Third World, the international companies, by and large, paid wages that were twice what domestic firms paid, but it was still just a few dollars a day. They got the pick of the employees. Beyond labor, safety, and environmental standards, mandating anything other than a very flexible wage standard would hurt most of these countries.

A strict wage standard along the lines of having to pay $10 an hour if they wanted to export to the US, would either cause the factories to close (their only competitive advantage is lower wages - even if they pay much more than other employers in the country) or, if they stayed open, they would attract educated professionals that every country needs to function. Nurses, doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc don't make $10 an hour in most Third World countries. (When the UN establishes a permanent presence in a Third World country they know that many local professionals will quit their jobs and go to work for them, because they can make international scale wages.)

[Lost4words]

9. What is the good stuff YOU MENTION?

Onlt the rich and powerful gain from Globalism IMHO.

[The2ndWheel]

12. I'm not going to disagree with that

[gravity]

61. Poorer nation get jobs from the deal

When a factory gets shipped to China, its people benefit from it. Even though they are making shitty wages based on our standards, the workers choose their jobs because it is the best opportunity for them and their families. Basically they would be making more money than if there was no factory in the first place.

[Lost4words]

63. you might think thats the case. I dont!

but not necessarily better than no factory being there. Exploitation of employees by employers will hit new lows.

[The Cleaner]

10. Good balanced perspective

it's just very hard getting through all these changes, that's the time we are living in, rapid change.

I wish for a world where employment is equal for all, and human rights are seriously addressed and placed over profit.

I think the key to getting ahead in today's world is staying ahead of the trends, for example, assessing which jobs are likely to do well in the globalized economy. Such as jobs through the Internet, emerging alternative energy sources, etc.

[originalpckelly]

16. These people are exploiting cheap labor to make a bundle in profit.

They're billionaires for a reason.

[fasttense]

5. Yes, Billy boy and his cohorts think American citizens are stupid

and ignorant. Not only do they say that high-tech workers from other countries are smarter than American citizens, they think American legislators and citizens are too ignorant to see through their transparent lies for cheap, cheap foreign labor sources.

“The H-1B visa program is being abused by foreign companies to deprive qualified Americans of good jobs,” Mr. Durbin said. “Some companies are so brazen, they say ‘no Americans need apply’ in their job advertisements.”

High-tech companies said that the wage standards in the Durbin-Grassley proposal would, in effect, require them to pay some H-1B employees more than some equally qualified American workers who are performing the same duties.

The Government Accountability Office, an investigative arm of Congress, said that thousands of H-1B workers have been paid less than the prevailing wage.

One company, Patni Computer Systems, agreed this month to pay more than $2.4 million to 607 workers with visas after Labor Department investigators found that they had not been paid the wages required by federal law. The company’s global headquarters are in Mumbai, India, and its American operations are based in Cambridge, Mass."

These sharks at Patni Computer Systems shortchanged these workers about $4,000 each. They no doubt passed the savings on to the consumer. Here's their e-mail if you would like to ask them. [e-mail]

So who do these idiot corporatists think will buy their crappy products when they wipe out the American middle class? India outlaws retail sales by corporations. Maybe they can convince Indian retail owners to sell their crap, who knows.

[originalpckelly]

14. Alright, so we're stupid, why don't they do something about it?

Don't these companies feel they owe us anything after they rob us blind all the time?

Why not actually give a damn about Americans and go to public schools and donate millions of dollars in computers or send out employees in a tutoring program? They should look at it like an investment.

[SammyWinstonJack]

24. Talk about adding insult to injury!

:grr: Call it what it is, they want cheap labor to increase their obscene profit margin? A$$holes!

[Firespirit]

29. Yes, "stupid" is now all they have left to say

In the tech field, the percentage of international students is easily 40%. In graduate programs it's even higher. Most of these students return to their home countries after completing their degrees. They attend the same universities, same classes, as American students, so that refutes the argument that "Americans don't have a good enough education." So yes, "Americans are just stupid" is all they have left.

[Xithras]

31. To be entirely and 100% fair...

A good friend of mine was recently looking for a skilled Assembly programmer to do some embedded systems development for a contract his company had landed. He recieved over 200 resumes from .Net programmers and Java junkies, but not one had any low level ASM experience aside from introductory college courses. He ended up hiring a Chinese guy over here on a green card. Companies like Google and Microsoft are often looking for people with LOW LEVEL programming experience to write device drivers and improve software/hardware interaction performance, and those kinds of skills can be fairly hard to come by in the US. Too many people nowadays consider Java and/or .Net "enough", and never learn anything else. Truly creative development activity requires the ability to work much closer to the hardware.

As the owner of a small software company, I can attest to the fact that while programmers are easy to find, good programmers are hard to find and are worth their weight in gold. A good programmer is one who can work on their own to solve a software issue WITHOUT bugging half the staff for help, and without turning to the Internet for tutorials and code snippets. There are an amazingly huge number of "programmers" today who only know how to repurpose code, and who slow to a crawl when asked to develop something novel and new.

That's why my hiring process includes a "Write a program that does X in two hours" portion, and the test is performed on a computer without Internet access. The resulting code is "graded" by myself and a couple of the potential hire's co-workers. The vast majority of applicants we get wash out at that point.

By the way, my nephew recently informed me that he wants to be a computer programmer (he's 15). I pulled out my ancient "Introduction to Computer Programming and Assembler" book, and told him to have fun with it :)

[Progressive_In_NC]

32. My company is paying six figures for anyone with MOSS 2007, Biztalk 2006 or MS Commerce Server

And six years of experience. We can't find em. We're having to poach Technical Specialists away from Microsoft and pay them really well.

I talk to so many folks who know .NET 1.1 and I'd love to give them a job, but we're looking for WF (Workflow Foundation) and .NET 3.0.

Thankfully, we still are hiring Americans right now, and I hope that doesn't change.

Interesting.

[Xithras]

39. Yep. Lots of programmers just make me scream.

The money, and JOBS, in programming have always gone to those who specialize. The late 90's were an abnormality that will never happen again. To find a job, you have to find some specific application or program that is used in business and specialize in it. People don't want to listen.

I get approached by people looking for programming jobs several times a month. Some of these guys are desperate for work, and they're almost always generic C++, .Net, or Java programmers. I don't want to be insulting, but those are a dime a dozen nowadays. I do employ two Java programmers, and both are skilled to the point where they can recite the Java docs off the top of their head. They are incredible, and I pay them accordingly. Regular Java programmers, the ones who have to look up functions to find out how they work, never make it past the interview process.

To be successful at programming, you either have to specialize in something (preferably something that's actually in-demand), or you have to be so good at what you do that you ooze "skilled programming god" vibes.

You want a programming job? Learn Assembler. I just spoke to a guy in Sunnyvale last week who's offering $125k for an ASM programmer to work on OS driver development for a well known hardware company. The position has been re-opened three times because they can't find anyone with the skills to do it. I know another guy who is looking for two COBOL developers with HP experience. Hell, I am looking for a .Net programmer with experience developing inventory control applications, and experience working with XP Embedded for POS terminals (required). I'm also looking for a C++ programmer with experience writing video display applications within XP Embedded, preferably with lots of experience in realtime video transcoding protocols. I have a $700,000 project sitting on hold right now because my staff aren't fluent in the technologies, and I can't find anyone who is.

As a matter of policy, I don't hire non-citizens unless they're permanent residents (we're small, and the paperwork needed to hire an H1-B is enormous). I can understand why many people do. It's not all about greed.

[The Cleaner]

44. Any highly specialized area in tech will pay six figures...

including SAP.

But the problem comes in with the six years experience thing. I bet if they reduced it to 2 years you'd get many more applicants. 2 years is enough I think.

See, the problem so often isn't that they can't find qualified workers, it's that they put their job requirements too stringently.

[Xithras]

51. Too stringent?

If someone says they're looking for five or six years experience, it generally means that it isn't an entry level job. You're expected to pull your own weight from day one and know what you're doing 100% of the time. It's very rare to find someone who can do that after only two years in the field. Heck, I require a minimum of five and STILL have to deal with people who require handholding to get their jobs done (they don't stay employed long here).

Hiring employees, only to terminate them when they can't do the job, wastes a lot of money. By setting the bar high to start with, you reduce the chance of that happening.

Here's a tip: The experience requirement can usually be bent if you impress them with OTHER things on your resume. Specialize, and then develop an open-source app that is genuinely useful to that specialization. Doing that helps to display your understanding of the specialization, and may get people to overlook a lack of experience. In my other post above, I mentioned that I'm looking for someone with experience writing video transcoding software. If someone applied to me with two years of experience in the field AND some impressive software development experience on the side, I'd probably hire them over some mainstream C++ programmer with six years experience who has nothing especially engaging on his resume.

[Progressive_In_NC]

65. True, I meant six years of overall experience

meaning they could have programmed pretty much anything before. I'm not picky and I'm good at training folks so I just need someone who can operate on their own. Besides SharePoint 2007 has only been out for about six months, so I'm only looking for someone with possibly one project under their belt anyhow.

Folks with 2 years of overall experience are the folks we hire into the dev lab. The guys with six or more are the ones we send out to the field. I need them to be able to go on-site and troubleshoot a problem without needing me to hold their hand.

[KatyaR]

60. I think half the problem is that there are a lot of technical folks out there,

but they can't get the jobs to get the experience they need to get the jobs. Ya know?

That being said, the CEO of my company likes to boast that "we don't care what kind of skills and experience you have. If you're the 'right kind of person,' we'll teach you what you need to know." Hardcore fundie who can't figure out why half the company has quit in the last year and the other half is looking for a job. He blames the turnover on the oil companies, but it's really that the company is, quite simply, one of the most horribly managed companies I've ever seen.

[The Cleaner]

66. Exactly.

It's hard to break in when you have a degree but no experience. How can you get the experience without the job. It is especially difficult in the tech world.

Per your CEO - typical, can't see the forest for the trees :eyes:

[Solo_in_MD]

36. On the metal bubbas are rare...and they know it

Way way way to many VB bozos out there who think they are good programmers for just the reasons you outlined.

[BlooInBloo]

40. I interview candidates. The "good Americans" are almost invariably idiots...

... We typically end up hiring Chinese or Indian folks. They're paid the same amount as the rest of us (which is a good wage), so there's no salary-deflation.

I work in a mathematical programming area - grad degree in math/physics/CS is essentially required.


EDIT: Poor writing made slightly less poor.

[The Cleaner]

43. How exactly are your American candidates idiots?

Too arrogant? Lacking knowledge? Poor interviewing skills?

[BlooInBloo]

46. Yes, yes, and yes.

[RC Quake]

49. Agree, agree and agree.

[pampango]

50. You make me laugh.

Some here will admonish you that you are talking about American citizens here, who have rights beyond anything dreamed of by immigrants. How dare you say that Americans, need I repeat, Americans are lacking in knowledge and interviewing skills, but with a surplus of arrogance!

You must have missed the memo that Americans are entitled to these jobs in spite of any alleged deficiencies they may apparently have, because, well, they are Americans. ;) Keep up the good work. Your posts are informative and funny.

[BlooInBloo]

52. I'm ALL for hiring competent Americans before looking elsewhere...

... And as soon as I find some, I'll do it.

[JerseygirlCT]

58. American workers demand decent wages, so we have to look

elsewhere to pay crap.

[WinkyDink]

59. The Big Lie, Education Dept. The topic is---and always has been---WAGES.

Then health-care.
Then workplace environment.
Then unionizing.
Foreign workers are much less likely to "agitate".

Yeah, right. Our college grads can't hack it.

[The Cleaner]

67. True -

from a business perspective it makes more sense to tap into the much cheaper pool of labor than it does to pay Americans the higher rates they demand.

I think tech has been sheltered from the decrease in wages the lower classes have felt for some time, and now it's catching up to them.

All our world is about is the $$$, everything.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

62. Bullcorn.

My SO has a BS and MS in physics and math and has been a programmer for 30 years. He used to do lots of VB and database programming. He also does video and audio editing and was an Electrical Engineering major before he switched to physics. He had to go into the damned oil business and he got kicked out of that in 1993. With no job security of course, and oil companies poormouthing all the time.

He can't find a job and has decided to retire.

[The Cleaner]

68. And that's the thing -

in the past, you interview, if they like you and you're a good fit, you're hired. Now there are so many variables working against you, including globalization, salary, benefits, etc.

I know what it feels like to be out of work for a LONG LONG time with hardly any calls coming in and hardly any responses to my resume. I know what it feels like to have people question me, why is the job search taking so long, did you do this, did you do that...

But as in your SO's situation it's not always the person's fault, theres just so much working against job applicants these days.

[treestar]

64. Or they don't choose to go into those fields

Americans are the Paris Hiltons of the world. Rich and not likely to choose the hard way.

People in other countries are hungry, even desperate. Therefore, they are going to outdo us in the competition. We are lazy and entitled in attitude.

The very title of this article shows it.

Let the companies hire those individuals. The companies will grow, providing more cushy, easy jobs for Americans.

If they don't, we'll be sitting here with nothing to do, screaming about how entitled we are while the others run circles around us and don't care.