"The good people of democraticunderground.com" get a shout-out in Joe Bageant's new book...

[Skinner]

..."Deer Hunting with Jesus."

We get free books sent to our office with some regularity, presumably in the hopes that we will review them. I don't usually read them, because most days I am so sick of politics from running DU that the last thing I want to do with my free time is read more about politics. Sometimes I'll read the first few pages just to see if any of these free books piques my interest, and normally they don't.

So, in that spirit I picked up my free copy of "Deer Hunting with Jesus," and to my surprise I could not put it down. Bageant is a extraordinarily talented writer, he's got a point of view and a background that is underrepresented here on DU, and he wrote the shit out of that book.

I almost didn't bother reading the acknowledgments at the end of the book -- normally I don't. But for whatever reason I kept reading, perhaps because the guy is such a great writer that I just couldn't stop.

So, anyway, I thought you all would appreciate knowing that you all got a shout-out. He also gives special thanks to "Wiley White, the 'Brokeback Carpet Layer'" -- anyone know which DUer that is?

Pick up a copy of his book. I recommend it.

Here's Joe's website: http://www.joebageant.com

[annabanana]

1. Just added it to the list. . . . . n/t

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

2. Cool. I just read a review in the non-fiction forum

& put it on my 'to read' list.

:thumbsup:

[QC]

3. Joe Bageant is a wonderful writer, but he inspires great hostility

whenever anyone posts his work here. That's unfortunate, because we on what now passes for a "Left" in this country need to be talking about class a lot more, not less.

[dweller]

13. really?

i've posted several Joe Bageant articles here in Editorials, and never had a cross word with anyone due to it.

the only 'hostility' i encounter is my own, that more folks don't realize the wisdom Joe imparts, and are missing out on vital info, imo.

dp

[QC]

18. I've seen some nasty discussions of him,

replete with the usual slurs about "rednecks" and "white trash" and "red states." Some people take offense at his complaints that the "Left" in America now consists almost entirely of the comfortably bourgeois, and they really don't like his suggestions about reaching out to folks who work at Jiffy Lube and watch the races.

Admittedly, I seldom come here anymore, so things might have changed recently. I'm a fan of Bageant, like you, and agree that if we don't start talking class again, this country's finished.

[dweller]

27. oh, i suppose that's the usual piss and moan

from reading
One Last Kick at Liberal Dogs


i'm not suprised, and agree with your last points.
dp

[mmonk]

33. Unfortunately, this country quit talking class a while ago

when Norquist fantasy economics of giving the commonwealth's money to the corporations and everybody will be rich like winning the lottery as long as we don't spend on the poor bullcrap started gaining acceptance.

[EFerrari]

36. Since the 50s? n/t

[mmonk]

39. Maybe variations.

But the version I'm speaking has all but eliminated union representation and now has poor people thinking their lives will be enriched by this process.

[QC]

40. I think we did decide in that era to trade democracy for consumerism.

Enjoy your refrigerators and Levittowns and Chevrolets and leave the governing to Those Who Know Better. We became consumers then, as opposed to citizens. That's a major gripe of mine, referring to Americans as consumers, but it does reveal the ruling class's attitude toward us, doesn't it?

[EFerrari]

47. I hit public school in 1961 and remember being told over and over

that we lived in a classless society -- long before I knew what that meant or what it obscured.

[QC]

53. That's a vitally important myth.

It's one of the most powerful tools in the ruling class's toolbox.

[John Q. Citizen]

57. "And you think you're so clever and classless and free, but your all fucking peasants

as far as I can see.

There's room at the top they are telling you still
but first you must learn how to smile as you kill
If you want to be like the folks on the hill.

John Lennon nailed it.

[northofdenali]

71. Amen, QC - my mom and dad were both yellow-dog Dems

and never bought in to the "consumer class" idea. Mom got her first new car when she was 78.

I got my first new one at 48 (so, ok, I was a youngster).

Consumerism v. Democratic ideals.

Thanks Ronnie RayGun. Thanks, GM. Thanks, Big Oil and Big Pharma. Thanks, TV (all TV). Thanks, Ad companies. Thanks to most of you folks, we no longer have a nation of citizens.

We have a nation of consumers.

[Wiley50]

72. AMEN, Denali

BTW- I'm driving the 1987 Dodge Aries K station wagon my mom left me when she died last year at 81

She bought it new from my big brother who was selling Dodges in 87

Ditto for the first new car thing

I'm 53 and have never owned one

[QC]

41. Yep, and abandoning class is what has enabled social issue politics

to put many working-class voters firmly in the pocket of the GOP. It's why we are in this mess.

I do think something is about to happen, though. Americans have lost faith in every branch of government, right down to their city commissions and local courts. If I were one of the ruling class, I would be concerned right now, but so far they don't seem to notice that anyone is unhappy. I guess they are too insulated by their wealth to be aware of sentiment among the Great Unwashed. So much the worse for them.

[Warren DeMontague]

45. How does that work, exactly, when the MAJORITY of Americans are, for instance, PRO CHOICE? nt

[QC]

50. Who gets their people to the polls?

That seems to be the deciding factor.

[Warren DeMontague]

59. "Seems to be" according to the mainstream media, which perpetuates the lie of the all-powerful

"values voter". Don't try to tell me pro-choice people aren't motivated. I flew 3,000 miles to be at the March for Womens' lives in DC in April of 2004- A march which, with OVER 1.2 Million People in attendance, was indisputably the largest peaceable gathering on the Nation's mall in our history.

Did the media tell you that? Did the media treat it with the coverage it deserved? (Here's another question: Remember the huge anti-war protests before the Iraq invasion? I do. Again, the media did everything they could to soft-pedal, belittle, undercount, and generally ignore those demonstrations) Well, I know CNN spent that day chasing drunk dudes around racetracks in pursuit of the elusive (and invariably Bush-supporting) "NASCAR voter". Even WITH the fact that our nation's political system grants far too much power per vote to residents of small, rural, podunk states, the idea that the "values voter" is this monolithic, all powerful block that must be reckoned with is a media-fed lie.

Want more of the socially libertarian majority in this country who believe in reproductive rights, personal freedom, church-state separation and gay rights to come to the polls? GIVE THEM SOMETHING TO ENTHUSIASTICALLY VOTE FOR- even as our party takes brave stands on things like a liveable min. wage and a SPHC system.

[Warren DeMontague]

44. Most people here support a liveable minimum wage. Most people here support a SPHC system.

Most people here want to roll back the tax cuts for the wealthiest. Most people here want to see the ultra-rich and corporations pay their fair share.

So what, pray tell, sort of "reaching out" is it that you think DU finds so unpalatable? Because the only time I see folks here get irritated with talk of "reaching out to folks who work at Jiffy Lube and watch the races" is when it involves any of the following:

abandoning our commitment to reproductive freedom and a woman's right to choose, AKA "tossing the pro-choicers under the bus"

abandoning our commitment to equal rights, including marriage rights, for gays and lesbians, AKA "tossing the gays under the bus"

abandoning our commitment to the separation of church and state and rolling over for an increasing encroachment theocracy and cheesy faith-based pandering in our collective, secular government, AKA "tossing the atheists, evolutionary biologists, and the entire First Amendment under the bus"

THAT is the kind of "reaching out" to the Jiffy Lube gang that meets with a loud chorus of disdain around these parts, and I'm proud to say I hope it stays that way. We can reach out to middle America by offering real world solutions to the problems of folks who are hurting- again, a SPHC system. A liveable Minimum wage. Badly needed public investments in infrastructure. Shit, increase funding for the Space Program; doesn't a whole ton of that money go to Texas and Alabama?

What we most certainly should NOT do is cluck with disdain about the "coastal elites" who comprise a large part of the Democratic Party, and plot with DLC waterheads to figure out which core issues we can jettison in fruitless pursuit of the mythical "values voter".

[QC]

51. Yes, we at DU support economic justice, but when is the last time our party

spoke loudly and consistently on that issue? When Bobby Kennedy was alive?

When it comes to putting food on the table sorts of issues, the two parties both support so-called "free trade," cheap labor policies, corporate supremacy, etc. Yeah, there are differences, but they are differences of degree. That is why the main differences between the parties, as far as most people can see, have to do with social issues, which forces us to play on the GOP's side of the court.

If we can bring class back into the discussion, we force the GOP to defend what they are really all about: funneling the nation's wealth into a few people's hands. Kinda hard to get 50%+1 on that platform.

[Warren DeMontague]

60. Our party needs to take bold stands, I agree. But if you're waiting for a Candidate to start

spouting Marx & Che, you're going to be waiting a long time.

If you think "social issues" are the GOP's side of the court (they're not. That's a Corporate Media myth, as I outline in this post. But if you want to believe that particular lie, there's probably not a lot I can do to dissuade you.) then they will run the entire damn NBA if our party goes off the deep end in terms of demanding a state-run economy, an end to capitalism and free enterprise, or some other weird rehash of Dialectical Materialism.

I'm not sure what else you mean by "bringing class back into the discussion"- seems Edwards has started to do that; While he has made a good start, personally I think combining that with clear, concrete policies that would help poorer people and the shrinking middle class is a smarter, more effective way to go: A SPHC system, a liveable minimum wage, certainly a much stronger apparatus of corporate oversight and accountability. Yeah, I think it's worth pointing out that most CEOs make more in a minute than most paper hat jobs make in a year. We ought to be reminding folks of that.

But if you're saying that standing up for a woman's right to choose is alienating Middle America... while standing on a wooden soapbox fire-breathing about "eating the rich" won't... well, I think you're wrong. The Jesus-crazed "Values Voters"- who are NOT as numerous as they would have you believe- are no more likely to come out in favor of left-leaning economic policies than they are to embrace gay marriage.

[QC]

61. Where did you get all these straw men?

You seem to have an inexhaustible supply of them, and Halloween is still four months off. You'll be able to decorate a hell of a barn dance by then.

I have not advocated any of the many things you accuse me of here: nationalizing industries, outlawing abortion, quoting Marx, etc.

I am talking about the same things you are talking about here: decent wages, health care, college without a lifetime of debt bondage, etc. You know, things that make an actual difference in people's lives. Fighting back--finally--in the class war that the GOP has been waging in this country ever since Grant was in the White House. It won't win over the religious fanatics, but I believe, like you, that they are not as numerous as they would have us believe. There are far more people who work hard and would like to have a shot at a decent life and don't care much who other people fall in love with.

We need to give them someone to vote for.

[Warren DeMontague]

67. We DO agree. Wasn't trying to bombard you with straw men.

I'm still a little wrung out from seeing people clamor for Paris Hilton to be -literally- guillotined last week, sorry.

[bleever]

4. The bad people at DU are gonna be pissed

they were excluded.

:)

Always happy to hear where DU is making a difference. Kudos as always to you, Skinner, and the admins and mods.

[EFerrari]

10. They're always pissed anyway.

lol

[bleever]

23. And

for all the wrong reasons. :)

[EFerrari]

24. Don't be looking at me, bleever.

:rofl:

[Kurovski]

49. I'm pissed that bleever isn't gay.

[EFerrari]

52. It's never too late, imho.

[Kurovski]

54. Hmm.

Hmm.

[bleever]

55. Aren't they making a bomb for that yet?

I mean, we can put a man on the moon...

[Kurovski]

66. You know, the Pentagon tried.

Maybe they can fake it in a studio? :hi:

[Jim Sagle]

31. Soon they'll let us know how pissed they really are.

But right now they're awaiting talking points from Al From and Bob Shrum.

[TahitiNut]

5. "so sick of politics from running DU"????? Heresy!

:rofl:

Glad to hear you cling to a modicum of sanity. :silly:

[Skittles]

6. let's us know Skinner not be insane

yes INDEED !!! :thumbsup:

[BlooInBloo]

7. Thanks for all your folks' work btw, in case I haven't mentioned it lately.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

8. Wow, That's Awesome. I'll Check It Out. Out Of Curiosity Though, Ya Gotta Tell Me: Have You At

least read 'The Assault On Reason'? I'm half way through with it right now and I'm beginning to think it should almost be (rhetorically) required reading for DU'ers. :)

[fishnfla]

9. I had this one in my targets

saw the ad in Harpers. Get it, targets?

*ahem* send the free books to our memebers in the books section, I'd bet someone would review them and post it.

any nonfiction book worth a shout I'd be happy to..


Edit : reading not spelling

[EFerrari]

11. That's very cool, Skinner. Thank you.

Who are these mystery DUers? :)

[Fridays Child]

12. It's Wiley50.

[IChing]

14. Really? This book is his baby?

I hope that is what you are saying.

[Fridays Child]

19. No, it was the answer to Skinner's question about Wiley White...

...the DUer mentioned in the acknowledgments of Bageant's book.

[IChing]

20. I got that now....I was eating, typing and reading at the same time

and not doing any of them very well,

I missed up..........:) :crazy:

[Wiley50]

15. I can not tell a lie, Wiley White is DUer Wiley50

Joe's an old friend from back in '76 in Boulder
and I was the houseguest of he and Barb for several months
when he was writing the book

Got a full dose of Winchester,Va
and even the Royal Lunch Bar

Joe has the keys to our party's future
and we all really do need to read this book

[EFerrari]

16. Omg, you're famous!

lol

:toast:

[Wiley50]

26. Naw, i just have a soon to be more famous best friend

Lot's of DUers in that boat too

[EFerrari]

30. Good going, guys.

:)

[symbolman]

48. Guess I'll have to mention you TOO Wiley

when I get mine published :) (THE JESUS BOLT)

Of course I'll mention the DU, I always do if I get press or tv time. Maybe Skinner and admin will read mine, more about the environment than politics, and sex, drugs, rock n roll, helicopter crashes, bear attacks, the usual political book :)

Congrats Wiley50 And DU, both have inspired a LOT of people, and changed the world..

[Wiley50]

56. Aw Gee Mike, but I really don't know you all that well

But maybe if I camped out in your spare bedroom for a few months
like I did Joe's, that could change

OTOH, I've heard Randy Rhodes rave about you and your stuff on her show

so maybe we are all a degree or two of separation....

[symbolman]

75. All the more reason to GET TO KNOW ME! :)

Actually it'd be my pleasure to get to know YOU, I've kept an eye on your posts and they are always top notch, you are a wonderful addition to the DU, and have brought info I'd never have heard of..

A few weeks in Hawaii? Maybe after I get some health issues straightened out, damn insurance here is the pits, but there's probably room at the inn :)

Randi is a great pal to have, we helped put her in that seat all we could when we started Takebackthemedia.com - ran that interview with her and that traitorous piece of shit Ollie North. She kept insisting that he was a Felon, and he got so flustered that he threw the headphones down and FLED THE STUDIO!

We're ALL less seperated than we realize, eh? Glad you inspire so many :)

[Wiley50]

76. Hawaii??? Sure!

Let me know in advance. On $623/mo SSI disability it's gonna take a while to save the plane fare.

I have a 28ft sailboat I live on but we're (boat and I) are on a river in TN doing refit.

Long long trip down the gulf, through Panama and then across, but I'm game someday (I hope)

if i hit the lottery, I'll tailer us to Seattle where my son is
then I'll be almost halfway there

PS- Hope your med stuff is getting worked out OK

[IChing]

17. Thanks it is on my list to buy Monday.

Ah, Boulder and Denver in the 70's
I was there too but in the mountains.

[rasputin1952]

25. We have a few "famous" people here at DU, glad you are

one of them now....


I know of a few "famous" people that run an eye over the Boards from time to time...you'd be surprised at how many there really are. Most don't post, but a few do.


Speaking of famous people, just a little tidbit I heard on C-SPAN about a year or so ago. There was a caller talking about the troops in the VA, before the scandal broke, she discussed the wounded, and how she felt her heart being pulled. The Moderator asked nonchalantly what she did that she could see the troops, she hesitated, and then said, "I'm an entertainer". Intrigued, said Moderator then asked another question, finally asking, "Is this Cher?"...after a couple of seconds of pause, she said "yes".

Now I'm not one to fawn over celebrities, in fact I come pretty close to despising all of them, but she sounded so remarkably humble, nothing like her stage performances, and her sincerity was not in doubt AFAIC. I gained respect for her after that.

Anyway...don't let this go to your head...your're just fine now, but if we have to widen doors to get your head in...well....:D

[EFerrari]

29. I remember that call. I was watching, too.

And pride isn't the right word but DU holds a lot of accomplishment. :woohoo:

I'll help you widen those doors. There's a crow bar around here somewhere.

[rasputin1952]

34. Yes, it sure does...we've actually done quite a bit that has

helped the cause...



Simply the finest people I've never met persoanlly....:D

[EFerrari]

42. To the finest people I've never met personally.

:toast:

[rasputin1952]

43. Here's a group picture...

I left out the Grumpies, both of them...:D

[EFerrari]

46. That was me, sitting on his lap.

lol

:hi:

[Wiley50]

37. Oh, and Skinner, It's "Deerhunting WITH Jesus" not for Jesus

and, although I do appreciate the raise in pay grade

it's Carpet Layer not Carpet Lawyer

30 years of it
is why my back is broke

[Skinner]

62. Whoops. I knew that.

Pardon my brain fart. :blush:

[Wiley50]

65. Much Better!

and our brains all fart sometimes

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

21. He is great. I wonder if he posts here

under another name?

[Fridays Child]

22. I don't know but, if he does, he's wise to remain "invisible."

[KoKo]

28. Ain't that the truth......

[GoddessOfGuinness]

32. I love his essays!

Thanks for the link!
I'll check with my local indy bookseller for the book. :-)

[mmonk]

35. Thanks for the recommend.

I'll pick up a copy.

[kurth]

38. An Interview with Joe Bageant:

http://www.energygrid.com/society/ap-bageant.html

[John Q. Citizen]

58. Thanks, that was an enjoyable read!

[druidity33]

63. he sounds like a great guy...

and that interview WAS an enjoyable read! I'll check out his books...

does he have a website?

[Wiley50]

64. joebageant.com

and all of his great essays are linked on the left side of the page

and, no, the book IS NOT a rehashed collection of them
It's all new material

[RJRoss]

68. Good read

I got Bageant's book on Thursday, and finished it Saturday morning. It's funny, enlightening and infuriating. I distill it as "a sociological/political inquiry into working class redneck American fundamentalists; how liberals don't understand them and how conservatives exploit them".

My only gripe is with some sloppy editing in a few places. Small gripe - I'm amazed Joe hasn't been published before.

[Kurovski]

69. Here's an eye-opener...

He bases most of it on e-mails he recieved.

http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2005/04/lets_drink_to_t.html


"...Besides that, it's not easy for educated people with orderly lives to be on the side of overweight, undereducated, deeply indebted, and bitterly frustrated and prejudiced people, folks who have finally given up after being kicked in the ass one too many times. The system is so rigged against them that even those who strive seldom get out, which is in itself a lesson to others. These people, the people of debt counselors, joint custody, repoed vehicles and mobile homes, have been lied to, cheated, and robbed, mocked on television, and now once again spat upon by their supposed betters, this time the angry liberals. Show me the party that represents them. Who could they have voted for that would have improved their situations? Let's face it, under the Democrats they would be getting screwed somewhat less (maybe), but they would not be getting ahead. In real wages they have lost ground under Dems as well as the GOP since 1973."

--Remember when Howard Dean said we should be reaching out to folks "outside" of the party. Joes right, too. There has to be a way to do it, The Dems were once the natural choice, and should be again.

[Wiley50]

73. Well, actually Kurvoski, He get's it 'cause he grew up in it and has lived it

Joe is a Vietnam era GI bill success story with help from karma sending him into interactions with people like
Alan Ginsberg, Tim Leary, Ken Kesey, Stephen Gaskin and that Gonzo Journalist guy, Hunter Thompson, among others.
I know because I've roamed Joe's house reading the framed notes from all of them scattered on walls throughout his house and compared notes with him on those I mutually came into contact with like Tim Leary, Ginsburg and Stephen Gaskin (who married me to my second wife and whose wife, Ina May delivered my second son).

Joe is a goddamned miracle of right place, right time right roots and right perspective, to be able to be the intellectual bridge between the working class poor and most of the folks we meet around these parts.

Yes, his web page is structured around the email he gets and his replies to it and I still haven't read one that didn't make me scratch my head and wonder how that person wound up writing what they wrote.

But, my buddy Joe, who I just lucked into knowing just the same as all those folks and joe, who just lucked into being who he is at the moment,

Is the Beer-swilling, ass-scratchin, infinity-pondering,most genuine edition of serendipity I have ever known

And it is a fucking pleasure to know him.

PS- write him a note and get to know him yourself.

[Renew Deal]

70. It's nice to get some positive acknowledgment.

Because we've been taking crap from some of our "friends."

[Cha]

74. Excellent reviews on Amazon

from: Howard Zinn, Sherman Alexie, Mark Crispin Miller, Jeffery St Clair, Studs Turkel, and David Sirota!

Sounds like my kinda book..thanks, Skinner!