Has anyone had experience with universal health care?

[babylonsister]

I was told a story from an American woman about her (British born but now an American citizen) husband in England. They had insurance but it didn't matter in England. He had a heart attack there and got really lousy care, just enough to get him home (US) to get real care.
I just wonder about this 'universal' stuff. Will it be as great as everyone thinks it will?

[RB TexLa]

1. When my wife was thinking about taking a job with her company in Europe

part of the deal was they would pay to fly her and I to New York if anything major came up health wise, including a medical flight (whatever that is) if any surgery was to be done.

[question everything]

2. I've heard that the systems in France and in Germany

are a lot better than the Canadian or the British.

[burythehatchet]

3. Here's my story about single payer healthcare

Early on in my career I lived in Paris and had met my would-be wife. I was having headaches and my gf made an appointment to see an optometrist. I went to see him and he gace me a prescription for glasses. Three days later my new glasses were ready. It cost me nothing, zip, because I was married to a French citizen.

[aquart]

10. My friend has dual Greek/American citizenship.

She was here, needed a procedure, hopped on a plane and went to Europe for it.

[recoveringrepublican]

21. I'm married to a Greek American, all his relatives, who can

do the same thing. He has one uncle and aunt who have home in Montreal, Florida, and Greece. They live about 4 months at each. If they need major medical procedures they NEVER have stuff done here. It's not because they can't afford it, they are extremely well off and also have insurance to cover them here. My in-laws do have medical stuff done here, but they only go to Greece every 2 years or so. My Father-in-law has had 2 major heart attacks. His heart is only working at 30% right now, yet they have no worries about spending 4 months in Greece this summer.

[NanceGreggs]

4. We have free health care here in Canada ...

... and you won't hear me complaining. The system has it flaws, but they are minor.

A friend from NYC came up here years ago. He was working here on a temp visa, awaiting his final immigration status to be finalized. He had a medical emergency and required very expensive surgery, and a lengthy hospital stay.

He could have been on the hook for the bill. But they don't do that here. The hospital simply filed the appropriate paperwork, and the government immediately made his Canadian medical coverage retroactive to the date he entered the hospital. Everything was covered, even though he wasn't actually entitled to the coverage for another four months (when his immigration was finalized).

They just don't believe in anyone being denied necessary health care, or having to pay through the nose to get it.

Pretty whacky stuff, huh?

[babylonsister]

5. How about non-essential healthcare? That's another bone of contention

I've heard about GB (and my experience is an 80-yr old woman who needed a hip replaced, again). You get on a list and may never get off it unless you have some $$; then you go to the top of the list.
Just wondering if that's the deal; the ones that can afford it go to the top of the list, but all are served?

[papau]

8. In the US only Oregon has the same rules - but all states will have them soon -

Besides - the poor do not get a hip replaced if they are age 80 and likely to have the use of the new hip for only a couple of years before death - by Rule in Oregon, and by practice elsewhere in the US.

That is the situation in the US now, especially in Oregon.

So why the complaint about the Brits NHS?

[NanceGreggs]

11. Honestly, I've never heard of such a thing happening ...

I am (thank God) healthy, and have little need for medical care. But I do have friends with elderly parents, and I've not heard any complaints from them on this issue.

Oddly enough, the only problem I've seen (as an American who didn't grow up with free health care) is the fact that Canadians seem to go to the doctor much more frequently than Americans do. I don't mean for preventative testing or check-ups necessarily (which is a good thing), but for every minor thing, "Just to be sure."

This is especially true with children. When my kids had the sniffles or a fever, I let it run its course. But my friends with kids the same age had them at the doctor's office the next morning if they sneezed too often, or ran a temperature, "just to have it checked it out, and make sure it wasn't something serious".

In addition to having a regular doctor of your choice, there are walk-in clinics all over the city (Toronto), which you can use at any time. I recently had a bad flare-up of a skin condition, and went to a clinic in the neighbourhood, which I'd never been to before. I presented my health card at the desk, saw a doctor who'd never seen me before, and got the prescription I needed on the spot -- no need to make an appointment, and possibly have to wait days to be treated. It's like going to a local convenience store when your regular grocery store is closed, or too far away to get to when you're in a rush!

I can't imagine going back to the States for a lot of reasons, but this is a biggie. And this system benefits not just individuals, but society as a whole. Imagine how many illnesses that could eventually be long-lasting, or even fatal, are caught and treated early because no one puts off a doctor's appointment on the basis of the expense? Imagine how many workers who become sick are back to work within days, not weeks, because they can access a doctor's care and a necessary prescription to clear up what ails them within hours, and at no cost, instead of getting a lot worse before they get better, thus losing more time away from work?

It just makes sense.

[babylonsister]

33. The Canadian system sounds awesome; thanks for sharing. nt

[kaygore]

17. I had to wait for my eye surgery here in the U.S.

I think that our media is corporate controlled and as such we are fed propaganda about the horrors of "socialized medicine" (see the framing). Cancer is an industry here. If there were a simple, cheap cure, I am not sure that we would hear about it as corporate medicine would loose billions of dollars. I am VERY cynical about the true level of medical care we get here in the US as compared to other countries. There are always trade offs, but by and large, too many have no insurance or like me have huge deductibles ($5000) and still have high premiums and we get very poor care overall. We factory medicine because the insurance companies will only pay so much for medical services and thus most of us get superficial care and we don't even know it most of the time.

Our whole medical system is based on a sickness rather than a health model (there's not much money for corporate medicine if we all were healthy).

We have very skewed understandings of medical coverage under national health care plans.

If there was a national health care plan (and not one that insures that insurance companies come out ahead as they have been screwing us for years), then the government might be a little less apt to poison the air that we breathe and the water that we drink. And the food that we eat.

Health care in American is broken and we are too dumb to realize how bad off we actually are!

[Raster]

41. Our media IS CORPORATE CONTROLLED. The "for profit" healthcare industry

will SAY AND DO ANYTHING to keep their record-breaking profits coming in. We spend more on healthcare per person than any other country. Our level of healthcare ranks about 23rd of the industrialized nations. The last thing the health insurance industry, big pharma and for profit hospital chains want is any type of challenge to their virtual monopoly. When someone starts spouting supposed horror stories about managed heath care in other countries, I just have to roll my eyes and shake my head. It is a SCAM!!! It's designed to scare timid little Americans into continuing to allow "for profit" medicine to fleece us all. Sorry, but all horror stories don't add up, nor hold water. We need to reform American medicine NOW!

[recoveringrepublican]

22. I have one friend who live in Canada

she had to wait an total of 3 weeks to get gastric bypass surgery. I'm not sure who paid for it, though I know, while she does well, she probably couldn't afford to shell out for it herself.

[donco6]

55. I had to wait a little longer than that to get my 1st Chemo appt.

And that was here in Colorado.

[kaygore]

99. You have to wait longer than that in the U.S.!!!!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

52. Here, if you have no money, you NEVER get your joints replaced

BEFORE age 65.

[applegrove]

56. There is no way to make yourself at the top of the list with $$$. You

can pay for a private MRI..but then who will interpret it for you? All neurosurgeons are working under the universal plan. So you have to wait for that too. They do distinguish between emergencies and not. A hip replacement or showing a few signs of parkinson's are not considered emergencies. You can wait for months in those cases.

At hospitals..when the emergency room is filled..a call will go out to all doctors in the hospital to go downstairs to emergency to help out..and those doctors with the training will stop their rounds, go downstairs and pick a patient or two to get through the backlog.

I've had no complaints.

[Katherine Brengle]

75. Good question - like, what about preventive care? That makes the most

difference in the long run. If universal only covered emergency care, it wouldn't really be worth it...

Anyone in this country MUST be treated if they go to a local emergency room - they will be billed if they don't have insurance, but they will be treated regardless of their ability to pay.

That's why we see so many Americans without insurance using the ER for primary care.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

84. The national health care systems that I know about DO cover preventive care

My pathetic individual policy, the one with the $5000 deductible, does not.

Yeah, we're the greatest country on earth all right. :sarcasm:

[kaygore]

100. I have a $5000 deductible, too, and a big premimum to boot

Yes, we are SOOOOOO lucky here in the U.S.

[Porcupine]

97. How about a non-essential heart surgery?

One you really didn't need in the first place? Settlement in heart surgery fraud case
Victims could get $32.5 million from doctors.>

Our "best in the world" medical system is a double edged sword. Many people get no health care at all, others who have "good" insurance may get more "health care" than is actually needed when the good doctor needs a boat payment. Despite the repeated whines about malpractice insurance doctors rarely lose their licenses for merely killing or defrauding patients.

I can't say the medical system in the US is one I trust.

edit: god only knows why this link doesn't look right.

[antigop]

28. Nance, if you don't mind -- how much do Canadians pay?

And how are you billed for monthly premiums?

TIA.

(didn't know you lived in Canada)

[Telly Savalas]

32. Funding comes from general government revenue.

Taxes pay for the system. In some places a small portion of one's taxes are called "premiums", but this is just a matter of semantics mostly used by politicians who want to deny they've raised taxes.

[antigop]

43. Thanks -- but what happens if you are a visitor vacationing in Canada?

What happens then?

Nance gave an example -- are all visitors treated this way -- or does it depend upon your individual case?

[Telly Savalas]

54. My understanding is that if you're on vacation in Canada

you don't get automatic coverage. (I think you may be able to purchase some sort of insurance from the government, but I could easily be imagining things here.)

I remember hearing some report on the radio a few years back complaining about Americans who were vacationing in Canada, incur health care costs, and then leave without paying the bill.

[Cleita]

68. Supposedly if you have insurance or an HMO here in the

states, it's supposed to cover you for emergencies while you are traveling in other countries. Of course you have to go through the approval thing first, just hope you don't bleed to death before the approval to go to the emergency room.

[peacebaby3]

73. This happened to me. I was visiting Victoria Island back in 2002 and

got sick the first day I was on vacation. Running a fever and completely miserable. I tried to get over it the first day, but by the second day, I was still feeling horrible and I didn't want to miss my entire vacation. I went to one of the walk-in clinics and paid full price for the exam and two prescriptions. It was about $32 US dollars (or at that time about $60 in Canada). Here in the US, it would have been at least $150 with the prescriptions. I waited about 5 minutes and when I was done, there was a pharmacy attached to the office so I walked across the hall and had my prescriptions in about 10 minutes. I'd say the whole entire visit including driving to the clinic might have taken an hour or less.

On edit:

I will add that while I was there, they were sort of in a mild crisis because all of the Drs. were about to go on strike. This would mean that they would only perform emergency procedures if I understood correctly. I'm not sure what happened.

[applegrove]

58. You pay with a 7% tax on all non-essential items. Food is not taxed.

Shelter too. But go get a haircut or send your kids to the mall with $100 and the tax they pay will be 7% or thereabouts. Means the people spending more on decor and clothes and jewelry..or fancy cars..pay more. It is a progressive tax.

[Spazito]

59. As a Canadian, living in Alberta, I pay $44.00 a month

and am billed every three months. I also have additional coverage I purchase for dental, vision care, perscriptions that costs me $20.50 a month.

Every three months I receive a bill for a total of $193.50 for all my coverage.

This is for one person, there are family plans as well.

When I lived in British Columbia, I paid $56.00 a month, each province is different but not by a large amount.

I hope this helps.

[dropkickpa]

69. Here in the US

I shell out, for myself and Dropkid, about $210 a month for health, eye, and dental. I have it REALLY good, I work for a huge university with very strong ties to the local health system. MANY americans with coverage do not get anything near as good. It is shameful that people in this country can't go see a doctor when they are sick and/or hurting.

The last place I worked, just for health coverage for me and the kid, it would have been $350/month, and that coverage was really fucking crappy. Luckily I was on medicaid at the time and they decided we still qualified to be covered under them.

* wants to cut medicaid and medicare, including cuts to the CHIP programs. Those fuckers really hate old people, disabled people, poor people, and children. There is a very special place in hell waiting for them.

[antigop]

70. Thanks n/t

[papau]

6. Single payer Univ Health need not be like Brit Nat'l health - but NHS does a good job

Of course in terms of population health and well being, The Brits - and all of the EU and Canada and AU - have much better results than the US - so garbage about "flying folks home from Britain so as to receive good care" has got to be someones idea of a joke - because the results being obtained by each system, if compared, show the Brits way ahead of the US. Now for specific problems top of the line US is no doubt the best in the world - for other problems you fly to Germany if you have the money.. But for the average person, it is no contest - the Brits NHS wins. - - like DOES ANYBODY believe that a by-pass or stent could not be obtained in any EU facility with the same likelihood of success as in the US?? - If so they need some educating.


From wiki (a great source despite GOP attempts to plant disruptions to embarrass the site)-

The NHS provides the majority of healthcare in England, from general practitioners to Accident and Emergency Departments, long-term healthcare and dentistry....Private health care has continued parallel to the NHS, paid for largely by private insurance, but it is used only by a small percentage of the population, and generally as a top-up to NHS services...NHS services are largely "free at the point of delivery", paid for by taxes....In 1990, the National Health Service & Community Care Act (in England) defined this "internal market", whereby Health Authorities ceased to run hospitals but "purchased" care from their own or other authorities' hospitals. Certain GPs became "fund holders" (now under the description "practice-based commissioning")and were able to purchase care for their patients. The "providers" became independent trusts, which encouraged competition but also increased local differences....During 2005 and 2006 hospitals began to lay off staff as a consequence of these reforms and the financial stringency accompanying them, further adding to controversy.

(my note -"the financial stringency accompanying them" seems the main problem - IF THERE IS A PROBLEM - but then the Brits pay as a % of GDP at a rate more than 30% less than we do - so there is room in the average persons budget to pay for "top up" insurance)

The NHS has also encountered significant problems with the IT innovations accompanying the Blair reforms. The NHS's National Programme for IT (NPfIT), believed to be the largest IT project in the world, is running significantly behind schedule and above budget, with friction between the Government and the programme contractors....There has also been criticism of a lack of patient information security. The ability to deliver integrated high quality services will require care professionals to use sensitive medical data. This must be controlled and in the NPfIT model it is, sometimes too tightly to allow the best care to be delivered.....

Except for set charges applying to most adults for prescriptions, optician services and dentistry, the NHS is free for all patients "ordinarily resident" in the UK at the point of use irrespective of whether any National Insurance contributions have been paid; those who are not "ordinarily resident" (including British Nationals who have paid NI contributions in the past) are liable to charges for services other than that given in Accident and Emergency departments or "walk-in" centres. The costs are met, via the PCTs, from UK government taxation - thus all UK taxpayers contribute to its funding...

KEY ITEM THAT US WILL PROBABLY NOT FOLLOW:
A feature of the NHS, distinguishing it from other public healthcare systems in Continental Europe, is that not only does it pay directly for health expenses, it also employs a large number of the doctors and nurses that provide them. In particular, nearly all hospital doctors and nurses are employed by the NHS and work in NHS-run hospitals....

[TheBaldyMan]

81. that is why the RW is trying to destroy it, death by privatisation and 'management reform'

it scuppers the notion that everything is done better by private industry and public services are by definition inefficient and wasteful.

Recent experiments in trying to introduce market reforms and private management practices into the UK health-care system have proved disastrous. Senior management and highly paid consultants brought in from private industry have resulted in higher costs and poorer standards of care. Compulsory tendering of services to outside commercial companies have similarly proven to be universally retrograde.

The path we are following takes the UK closer to an American style system, very expensive for tax-payers and very lucrative for the companies, a lot of whom are US based.

All this mis-management is being used as justification for wider privatisation even though it is the privatisation that is at fault.

[jannyk]

7. Yes, Canada and UK

I'm British but have been gome 30 years so can't comment on the curretn state of the NHS there. However, it was fabulous when I left.

All my husband's family lives in Canada. Both my sister-in-law and mother-in-law have been through cancer in the past 5 years. They had the best care and it cost nothing.

My SIL is now cancer free. My MIL died 2 years ago, her cancer was widespread and she was 82, but the care that woman got was amazing. 3 rounds of chemo/radiation, 2 operations, nutritional care, home help, home massages, marijuana - you name it - she got it.
Toward the end, she entered a hospice and surprised everyone by lasting another 6 weeks. The room was det up so a family member could stay with her at all times - extra bed, bathroom meals etc. She had the very best concerned care. The only charge incurred, during the while time, was $25 a day because she was in a private room!

Socialized Healthcare, or what the US insists on calling it - Universal Healthcare, will only be as good as the politicians allow it to be - which doesn't bode well for the US. If it's not funded/managed properly - it will be next to useless for those that need it most. Our government seems much more comfortable spending all out taxes on taking lives than spending it saving them.



/typo

[islandspirit]

9. Wish we had our canadian system in US

We are Canadians who moved to California when we were 35. We loved our healthcare in Canada and it was the benefit that we were most nervous about in moving to the US 20 years ago. A few years ago, my husband was laid off and our cadillac health insurance is gone as we cannot afford $1200 a month. So we are now the underinsured.
Having had a performated appendix and 3-C-sections in Canada, we never saw a bill. My mother's had cancer and other problems, my father a quadruple by-pass. And my father in Toronto also recently had a hip replacement - you know was on one of those waiting lists. His wait was 3 weeks long and he was 82 when he had the surgery.
We would give anything to have their health care system. And we may in fact have to move back in order to have the peace of mind that we are covered and won't use all of our life savings in paying for some catastrophic event.

[antigop]

29. Welcome to DU, islandspirit!

I am sorry we live in a country that where people are treated this way.

NO ONE SHOULD BE TREATED LIKE THIS! NO ONE!

[kaygore]

12. I had exceptional care in London

I had a wonderful experience in the U.K. this past November. I was visiting London soon after the 2006 mid-term election. I had been diagnosed with a tear in the macula of my left eye before I left for my vacation and was to have the surgery scheduled once I returned to the U.S.

While in London late one evening, I experienced flashing lights in my left eye. When I called my surgeon in the U.S., he told me to go to the emergency room immediately. The nearest hospital to my friend’s flat was the Moorfields Eye Hospital. I arrived there about 10:00 p.m. UK time.

The place was like no emergency room I had ever experienced in the U.S. To cite one example, when my dad was dying of cancer, I waited with my dad at Norfolk Sentara Leigh’s emergency room after he had been sent there by his oncologist to be admitted immediately. Instead we waited six hours as my dad’s kidneys were failing and only got him admitted because I kept calling every doctor he had and screaming at them until they had an emergency room doctor who was not on call that afternoon come in and admit him. I could give you U.S. emergency room horror story after horror story! Not so at calm, peaceful Moorfields.

As soon as I arrived at Moorfields, I asked for the emergency room’s FAX machine so that my eye surgeon could FAX my records. The person with whom I spoke said that they would get that information to my surgeon and let me know when my file was FAXed (which they did).

I was first interviewed by a triage person who said that I would be in the two-hour line (which I later learned was the longest that I would have had to wait as my problem was not life threatening). Then I was sent over a woman who took my personal information but did not ask for my insurance although I had my Virginia Anthem Blue Cross information with me. I had then only been seated for less than five minutes when I was taken back and given tests which I had twice been given in the U.S. and which cost me over $500 each time in the U.S. (my insurance deductible is $5000, so each time in the U.S., I had to pay.)

I was then sent out to wait to see the ophthalmologist. Again, I waited only a few minutes before I was taken back to the ophthalmologist who examined me further before explaining that what I had experienced was a detached vitreous humor which is not serious.

As I was leaving, I asked the receptionist where I should pay. She explained that there was no charge!

I was very impressed with the level of care that I received, how rapidly I was taken in for care, and the extensive testing. I realize that Moorfields is a specialty hospital, focusing on the eyes; however, my friend who is an American but working in the UK as a UK hire and thus on their National Health Plan said that her experience in a regular hospital’s emergency room (not what they call it by the way in the UK) was similar to mine at Moorfields.

I realize that there are problems with any health plan, but I have seen the horrors in the U.S. having been the primary care giver for first my mom when she was dying of cancer (and had an excellent health plan) and my dad when he was dying of cancer and had a very good supplemental plan for Medicare. I think that there are enough national health care plans in the world that we in the U.S. could analyze the pros and cons and each and come up with a plan that would serve patients and doctors well—both of whom are NOT well served now. We need to stop the medical industry from dictating our health plans in the U.S. so that they make obscene profits and get a plan that serves the people.

[silverlil]

13. Welcome to the club!

Everything has changed in the UK.
I was going back to the UK every 12 weeks and staying one month to look out for my mother for a period of about 5 years after I retired.. but all the rules changed in 1998. Tell me about it? If you travel across the channel or are smuggled into the UK you get everything free. Housing, medical and the whole 9 yards. ME, forget about it, being born the UK and paying a national health insurance stamp while I was working from 15 until 22 when I married an american and came to america, but alas, nothing doing after 1998 I had to PAY to see a doctor in my hometown even with my national insurance number ..an english person has to live in the UK for 12 months prior to receiving the health benefits....nevermind the migrants, they get taken care of ... dont get me going on this subject. I cant go to the UK without taking out insurance. Any limeys onboard, pay attention. If you leave England for longer than 12 months, you no longer have insurance, and you have to prove more than your address and you have to establish yourself in the UK for a period of 12 months to qualify for health benefits .. but if you are illegal.. no problem.
I have medicare, blue cross (from my job) and tricare for life but nothing works in the UK ... cash is it now if I have to go back home. Medicare does not pay outside of the USA for ANYONE who wants to go on holiday or whatever, and tricare now follows Medicare - and forget about my 100% blue cross from my job they follow the line from medicare... ... . So much for my benefits from the University of California.

[silverlil]

14. correction

It is 6 months, not 12 to qualify if one goes back to the UK to live. Dont take my word for it, call the National Health Service, I did back when I needed to. It is 6 months, sorry, I made a mistake.
I dont think the tourists will get the same type of treatment they were afforded in the past.

[kaygore]

15. I was served by Moorsfields Eye Hospital the night before our Thanksgiving

which is the end of November 2006. Moorsfields is a NHS hospital. Everything was free. They even told me that they were not equipped to accept money or credit cards, etc.

[babylonsister]

35. Sounds similar to my friend's experience. He got no satisfaction

from the British healthcare system and almost died as a result. When speaking of their plight, they're not very complimentary and worry if the US goes down this road, the same could happen.

[kaygore]

101. I can tell you real horror stories about the U.S. system--the difference

between the UK horror story or your friends and the horror stories I can tell is that my horror stories about the health "care" system in the U.S. cost the patient tens of thousands of dollars while that of your UK friends cost them nothing out of pocket.

[Hekate]

16. The US has Third World medical care: you get the best if you can afford it, down to nothing if not

We collectively pay the most money in the world for our medical system, but most of that money doesn't go for our care -- it goes for our insurance, which any of us can lose at a moment's notice. It is shameful.

I would be overjoyed to see Canadian-style universal health coverage here in the US. It would cost us less than what we have now, and take care of everyone far better. The rich would still get the moon if they want to pay privately, the middle class would stop fearing bankruptcy, and the poor would stop fearing that they might die of preventable/treatable diseases.

Hekate

[kaygore]

18. YES!!!!!!!

We have the best government that corporate interests can buy!

[RagingInMiami]

19. When I lived in Dublin, Ireland

I was there illegally yet when I got sick, I got treated with no questions asked. In fact, I even went to the hospitals to get some tests done and I didn't pay a dime.

Sure I had to wait a month to get the tests done, but that is the same way it is in this country except you pay a shitload of money.

[China_cat]

20. My in-laws lived in the Netherlands

and both had serious medical conditions. (Bladder cancer for my FIL and genetic emphysema...she was a lifelong non-smoker in a non-smoking household...for my MIL) Not only were both treated well, including home visits by the doctor, but the health care included a three times a week helper for the things they could no longer do for themselves. At no cost for them.

My nephew there has one of the dystrophic conditions. Diagnosed before he was 2, he has never walked. National health there has paid for all his care, every one of his wheel chairs, the van needed to convey the child and his chair, a lift system in the house to help with bathing, a chair lift up the stairs, and electronicly controlled entry doors so he never had to wait for someone to let him in or out. It also supplied 4 hours a day of home health care. He's now a lawyer. (Which upset his parents more than his sister coming out as gay)

[donco6]

49. Thanks for the info.

I've been looking at living in the Netherlands, and wondered how their health care worked. I still wonder what they would do with my preexisting condition (past history of lymphoma).

[China_cat]

53. You'd be cared for. Period.

Yes, a lot would be done on an outpatient basis but you would be given the treatment you need. The health care system there does everything they can to keep people in their homes where costs are lower and outcomes are better...WITHOUT sacrificing quality of care.

[magellan]

23. I lived in the UK for several years

After I married my husband, I was given an NHS number and assigned to a GP at the local surgery (doctor's office). They were mostly very good, though it's usual to wait a week or two for a non-emergency appointment. GPs are the most overworked of the UK medical field, next to nurses.

The one bad experience was when my husband suffered arrhythmia. He drove himself to the hospital, they checked him out and sent him home with a prescription, and he had to make a follow up appt with his GP to be referred to a cardiologist...which all seemed a terrible waste of time. Then the GP was not very enlightening about my husband's condition: we asked several questions which he advised us to put to the specialist, whom we would not see for a few months!! My husband and I lived in worry for that time, wondering if he was going to have the 'big one'. But the hospital was great again, once his appt with the cardio came up. And all we ever paid for was a small co-pay for his prescription.

The reality is that the UK's national healthcare system is notoriously underfunded and an administrative nightmare due to decades of lack of proper oversight and ad hoc re-jigging. About 30% of personal taxes go towards it -- not enough -- and even that somehow never manages to get to where it's needed.

But you could make similar complaints about the system here.

[SharonAnn]

30. That episode sounds like my experience here with "gold-plated" insurance

[kaygore]

102. Every complaint you noted I can give examples of here in the U.S.

[pampango]

24. Our friend had a spinal cord injury in London back in the mid-90s

She had great things to say about the surgeons and specialists. She had a very bad experience with emergency room care and daily care while recuperating. Of course, this was all 10 years ago. Her parents ended up renting a medical jet, as soon as she could be moved, and flew her back to West Virginia to finish her recuperation.

[LeftishBrit]

25. I'm British and have had mostly good experiences with the NHS

I am VERY glad we have it, especially as I have a 'pre-existing condition' (Crohn's disease) since childhood, and would find it impossible to get affordable insurance.

Unfortunately, the NHS isn't what it was pre-Thatcher. The Thatcher government underfunded it horribly. The Blair government provided more funding, but applied much of that to management rather than medicine, constant administrative changes, and stupid 'targets'.

I had a T-shirt in the 80s, which bore the message: "WARNING: HER MAJESTY'S GOVERNMENT CAN SERIOUSLY DAMAGE YOUR HEALTH SERVICE". Sadly, successive governments have. But it's still much better than not having one!

I should also add that just because we have an NHS, doesn't mean that people who choose to can't 'go private', either by paying fully or through a private insurance scheme. It just costs you to do so! Usually, people who 'go private' do so in order to get more choice about which doctor they have, or to have treatment at a time of their choosing, rather than because the medical treatment itself would be better - though sadly, with the government cuts over the years, people sometimes feel they have go private in order to get some tests or treatments that the NHS won't pay for.

[Vinca]

26. A woman I know was visiting France and became ill on a weekend.

She was treated at a hospital and given medication. As she left, she asked about the bill and was told there was none. A Canadian woman was visiting our neighbor and had a gallbladder attack that caused pancreatitis, a potentially fatal illness. She was taken to a major medical center in the U.S., where doctors consulted with doctors in Ottawa. It was determined she could safely be moved to Canada for treatment because the U.S. care was so much more expensive. Canada SENT A JET to pick her up and take her home to Canada where she received fine care. Oddly enough, just prior to this, I suffered the identical thing. Since I'm uninsured I waited 2 weeks before consulting a doctor, treating myself with bed rest, liquids and a heating pad. By the time I saw the gastroenterologist, the condition was starting to turn around so he did a couple of tests and we went into "wait and see" mode. Fortunately, I recovered pretty much on my own. Oh, I almost forgot to mention the doctor was going to admit me to the hospital and notify a surgeon until his quizzing of my financial condition turned up a dry hole. No insurance, no money for expensive treatment, not poor enough for Medicaid. Go home to your heating pad, honey.

[babylonsister]

36. Canada is sounding better and better! nt

[tsuki]

27. Grew up in the military in the 50's, 60's & 70's. Nope, no problem. n/t

[marions ghost]

31. Australia

My sister married an Australian and lives there. They decided not to live in the US because of the health care issues, and also the crime. It turned out to be a good decision because her child had a lot of health complications (making her into a virtual nurse) and her husband died of a rare cancer. Throughout the ordeals she went through they had excellent health care without financial hardship. The local govt even helped with some of her childcare assistance. Thank God she did not have those worries then and is not having to pay big debts now. I'm not sure she would have made it if she had been over here. But it's sad that because of health care, they could never live over here. I'm sure she will never come back.

Once you live without those health care worries (on top of all the other worries we have today), you would never want to go backwards to the stone age either.

[babylonsister]

34. Thanks for piping up; I didn't realize AUS also had universal healthcare. nt

[antigop]

37. babylonsister, the US is the ONLY industrialized country w/o a national health plan n/t

[babylonsister]

38. Thanks for that fun fact, antigop. I didn't know that either.

The pros seem to be outweighing the cons. I'll now be looking at this issue a bit more informed.

[antigop]

40. Also we have universal healthcare today -- it's called Medicare

It just happens to be for people 65 and older.

So if you want to ask about experiences with "universal" healthcare, ask people how they like Medicare?

(Granted, Medicare needs funding -- but ask people 65 and over if they want to get rid of it and trade it for the private market.)

Medicare was put in place because there was NO PRIVATE SECTOR SOLUTION. Insurance companies don't want to insure older people -- because they get sick.

The answer to our healthcare crisis is HR 676 -- MEDICARE FOR ALL.

We extend Medicare to EVERYONE. It's quite simple, really.

[antigop]

39. PLEASE READ

http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single_payer_resources.php
>>
Currently, the U.S. health care system is outrageously expensive, yet inadequate. Despite spending more than twice as much as the rest of the industrialized nations ($7,129 per capita), the United States performs poorly in comparison on major health indicators such as life expectancy, infant mortality and immunization rates. Moreover, the other advanced nations provide comprehensive coverage to their entire populations, while the U.S. leaves 46 million completely uninsured and millions more inadequately covered.
>>

[babylonsister]

42. It's the in-between guys who are sucking it up, no? The insurance and

big pharma companies are raking it in while the masses suffer. I definitely think changes need to be made, and am hopeful (?) someone might do so.

[antigop]

44. Look at the 2008 Dem Presidential candidates

Kucinich supports Medicare for All -- he's a co-sponsor of HR 676.

Edwards and Obama have said they want universal coverage but I don't know what their plans are.

Hillary has mentioned healthcare, but I don't know what her plan is.


<edit to add> I don't know about Biden and Dodd either.

[babylonsister]

46. I will surely be listening to what they all say; thanks! nt

[annabanana]

72. my guess:

Kucinich is the only one that supports a true universal healthcare plan.

"Universal Coverage" means that the insurance companies will still be in a position to bleed the system dry to support their profits.

[kath]

96. Yes- "universal coverage" is bullshit! We need a SINGLE-PAYER system,

dammit.
Get the fokkin' parasitic insurance companies out of the picture - they provide no service of value, they only suck massive amounts of money out of the system.
Big Pharma needs to be reined in as well.

[kaygore]

103. YES!!!!!!!!

[kskiska]

45. What about dental care? Is that covered

under most universal health plans?

[TheBaldyMan]

82. UK dental care on the NHS is really underfunded, it's better to go private

it is impossible to find an NHS dentist in a lot of areas in Britain, the dentists make so little money on the treatment that they stop accepting NHS clents. Most modern treatments are unavailiable on the NHS plan so people pay for private treatment if they can afford it.

[crispini]

47. My mother went to France for a complicated heart procedure that they invented there.

She had a week stay in the hospital -- I was able to stay with her in her room -- and then she was readmitted for a day for tests. They billed back to her insurance in the States about $10,000 total. That's half what American hospitals have billed her insurance for the same procedure, with a one day hospital stay.

Her mother was British, and had limited mobility towards the end of her life. She had daily home health visits, free, and my mother is still good friends with her mother's home health care caseworker. It was such a blessing as my mother lived here and couldn't get over as often as she wished to take care of her.

[DemExpat]

48. Everyone in The Netherlands has good health care

now it might not be the top of the line treatment offered in a top US hospital if you can afford it, but it is decent all around coverage, treatment and services for just about anything.

The system was just overhauled last year to make it more competitive and less bureaucratic, but I have not experienced any detrimental effects from that yet, except that it is more expensive for many of us.

Prenatal, birth, and baby health care were most excellent in my experience.

DemEx

[Lydia Leftcoast]

50. The UK system is different from the Canadian system

Under the UK system, hospitals are owned by the government and most doctors and nurses are government employees. Margaret Thatcher began the process of trying to kill off the National Health Service by cutting its budget and privatizing services. Tony Blair, the slow-motion Republican in New Labour clothing, is continuing the process by closing hospitals.

My personal experiences with a single-payer system are a few decades old.

1) When my family went to Europe for five weeks in 1967, we had four encoutners with various medical systems. a) While we were visiting relatives on an island off the coast of Norway, my youngest brother cut his head open on a low door. The local nurse-midwife patched him up for free. b) While we were in Germany, we arrived in one town as my mother was becoming deathly ill with a throat infection. The hotel directed us to a 24-hour clinic, where she was examined at no charge and given antibiotics. c) In Amsterdam, we had two mishaps. I fell down the stairs in our hotel. We went to the out-patient clinic at the nearest hospital, where they examined and released me. Later, my grandmother developed a digestive ailment in the middle of the night. The hotel called a doctor, who examined her, and prescribed a diet of rice and tea.

2) When I lived in Japan as a student, I was on their national health care system plus the supplemental system for students. The national system pays 70% of medical charges, with 100% coverage for certain catastrophic or chronic conditions. With the student supplement, I was 97% covered. I never needed to go to the doctor during that period, but I do recall that the charge for the covearge was very reasonable, since it's based on income.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

51. I spent over a decade as a military doctor, which is basically a socialized medical system.

Essentially free care to those in the system, with docs/nurses/administrators who are salaried, with no profit incentive, and also no financial incentive to hold DOWN costs too much either.

(It's funny because the many Republican military docs would probably decry any mention of "socialized medicine" because it's a right wing shibboleth, a lot of them not even realizing the irony that they are in just such a system.)

There were efficiency issues, but I thought the care was decent, and it is INFINITELY better than being an uninsured patient in America.

I wonder if you have any details about your friends' experience, that one sentence summary is not too enlightening.

[babylonsister]

57. The man never got any x-rays, cat scans, nada. He was given a

pill for the pain in his chest. He spent a few days in hospital there and never once was given a bath or shower. I did get an edited version of the story, but his wife was very angry.
When he got home, the doc told him he was lucky to be alive and immediately scheduled a triple bypass.
He's okay now luckily.

Also, as the wife of someone who retired from the military, I had more than one occasion to count on the military hospitals, and wasn't disappointed. I just never thought to compare the military vs. universal healthcare.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

61. X-rays and CAT scans are not too valuable in chest pain scenarios. The relevant tests

are EKG, cardiac enzymes (as well as certain other labs), echocardiogram (ultrasound of the heart) and as far as more expensive/invasive tests, chemical or exercise stress tests and catheterization study.

[babylonsister]

62. EKG! That's what I meant; he wasn't tested at all.

Obviously, I'm not a doc! But zero tests were done on a man that had severe chest pain. His insurance didn't matter.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

64. If true (had chest pain, got no EKG) that would be bad, however, I'm reluctant to condemn an entire

country's medical system based on one person's experience related third-hand.

Even second hand there are often crucial details missing.

Even if entirely true it's possible that they received substandard care from a crappy doc or hospital that does not represent the norm in England. Happens here too, if you read the news or pay attention.

[babylonsister]

66. I also didn't intend on condemning GB, just wanted to hear

experiences from others regarding universal healthcare because theirs sounded like such a nightmare.
And yes, I know it can and does happen in all countries, ours very much included.

[sandnsea]

86. Maybe their insurance required transfer

I really don't know, but it seems I've heard that sending people back to their country of origin is routine when you have serious medical issues overseas. Maybe US insurance companies don't want people to know other countries really do have good medical care, and consequently don't approve treatment overseas. I don't know that for sure, obviously, but it wouldn't surprise me if he were required to be sent home to receive that "#1 in the world" health care. If I were that couple, I'd find out if insurance had anything to do with the decision to transfer him home.

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. I don't know

I know that Blue Shield Blue Cross refused to cover a patient who was John Doe for two weeks at an ICU south of the border, after a major accident.

It was a major fight... their excuse, well you are not an aproved facility... yep straight face, never mind what they were getting charged was one fourht of the cost in the States for the same care.

We did not bill the patient either. The family donated some money and we all left it at that...

Now as to medical evacuations, yep you are right, some insurance systems require it

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

63. If it were single payer/universal system, the military or VA system (which are different) are

the closest things to what it would be.

Docs/nurses/administrators salaried by the government, administering care in hospitals and clinics built and run by the government.

Patients get their care for free or minimal copay with the exception of things like breast implants for cosmetic reasons only (when I was still in, patients had to pay for the implant as well as some kind of additional fee that would go to the hospital/government, unless it was for breast cancer reconstruction).

[antigop]

71. Mayberry, I respectfully disagree

The closest thing to a single payer/universal system would be extending Medicare to all. The doctors and medical staff do not have to be salaried by the government for a single payer/universal system.

[bleedingheart]

60. My European and Australian friends find it appalling that people

here in the US can lose their homes because they have the misfortune of becoming sick.

[SoCalDem]

77. A young man from my town married an Aussie girl, and they moved there

He had a terrible weight problem, and we were all amazed to see him slimmed down the last time they visited.

Apparently the health system there gave him some REAL obesity treatment..even provided a nutritionist and he's managed to keep it off for 3 years so far. He said the doctor he saw there was appalled that no one had "helped" him in the US, and since he's been there, his hypertension disappeared as did his diabetes.

National health care saves money in the long run, since this young man was headed for expensive medical care down the road...and now he gets to live a healthy life..

[Matariki]

65. Someone needs to send this entire thread to members of Congress

The solutions some of them come up with as a fix to the health-care crisis have been just stupid and shameful - when the answer is so obvious and simple: Universal health-care, paid for by taxes on both corporations and a small raise in individual taxes. The money corporations & individuals save in not paying HUGE monthly premiums will more than offset a tax increase.

The only losers in this will be the insurance companies, and frankly - screw them, they've been taking unfair advantage of this country for far too long.

[Spazito]

67. Here is a link to an interesting article on Canadian healthcare

The Canadian Cure



Just because the federal government can't overhaul the health care system doesn't mean it can't be done. In a similar situation, Canada's provinces established individual systems founded on equity, public administration and decentralized control. Fifty years later, all Canadians are covered and the plan still costs less per capita (and a smaller percentage of the GDP) than U.S. citizens pay. Maybe we should take another look.

more

http://www.newrules.org/journal/nrwin01health.html

(This article was written by an American, I believe)

[Katherine Brengle]

74. I think we might be better off with a 2-tier system --

free health care for anyone who wants/needs it - then private health insurance for those who want it.

Everyone should be eligible for SOME sort of care when they need it.

Until we completely eliminate money, there will always be better services for those who pay (in all areas of life, not just healthcare).

My state has free care/free insurance for those who qualify, then you pay for your own if your income is too high or you don't fit one of the categories (pregnant women, children, the elderly, AIDS patients etc). I think they've also introduced other tiers since mandatory insurance went into effect. (MA)

[marions ghost]

76. There should not be

better care for those who can pay more. The level of care should be the same, regardless of ability to pay. Otherwise you are still treating health care as a luxury item.

I can tell you have never been poor or without access to good treatment. Think about it.

[Katherine Brengle]

94. I think quality treatment should be available to everyone --

but what are you going to do, make it illegal for a doctor to run a private practice and charge any which way he/she chooses?

What in the hell is American about that? Honestly?

[Katherine Brengle]

95. Also, to clarify, I said --

free healthcare should be available to anyone who *wants* or *needs* it - I never said there should be an income qualification. If a millionaire wants to use it, s/he should go right ahead.

I just think expecting everyone to adhere to a completely public system is a little naive. Kids can ride the bus to school for free in most places - doesn't stop some of them from buying cars and driving in once they are old enough.

I think the main problem we are facing is that too many uninsured Americans aren't getting preventative medical care, which means they get sick, they run to the nearest ER, and this drives up costs for everyone, not just poor people, not just hospitals.

If everyone were at least *covered* costs would begin to go down.

[Solon]

78. The problem is that it keeps the for-profit system intact...

You could have the best insurance in the world, till the company in question decides not to cover you because of a "preexisting" condition.

Premiums are related to health, if someone has lifelong diabetes, their premiums are going to be much higher than someone who is healthy. This means that they will slide through a "hole" in such a system where premiums are impossible to afford, but at the same time, they make too much to be on the state supported system. Even if they qualify for the state system, its still up in the air if they insurance company that is subsidized will pay for treatment of any complications from diabetes.

In addition to this, you also have the problem of efficiency, private health care is much more inefficient than public system, by and large because of the profit motive. A combination of the bureaucracies of insurance companies, investment firms, CEO pay, etc. usually eat up at least 30% of the cost for health care in this country, and that is before the health care even takes place. Compare that to Medicare, which has an overhead cost of about 3%, or Canada's system, which is about 5%, and you can see where cost savings take place.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

83. The private sector has lost the right to participate in health care

It has been gouging the public for years, denying care and/or coverage whenever possible, and creating a caste system. I am opposed to any of those Republicanite (or Republican Lite) schemes for "requiring everyone to have insurance and providing subsidies for those who can't afford it." It's a barely disguised form of corporate welfare for the insurance companies, which are already rolling in cash.

I am terribly disappointed--no, angry-- that all the Democratic candidates except Dennis Kucinich seem to bend over backwards (or forwards) to include goodies for private insurance companies in their so-called "health plans."

That is tantamount to rewarding corporate crime.

Minnesota is supposedly a leader in health care, but as a self-employed person, I have a choice of three insurance companies, all of which gouge individual policyholders, deny benefits whenever possible, and find all sorts of excuses not to compensate doctors. If I were ever to get seriously ill, I could be dropped and have no legal recourse. It has happened to others and could happen to me. I wonder why I bother.

[proud2BlibKansan]

79. My sister has been spending summers in England for 25 years

and my bro in law is over there about 6 months a year. They both rave about the health care there and have said for years that they wish we had something similar here.

[ForrestGump]

80. Yes. It was eventually non-sustainable

But it was good while it lasted.

I'm sure socialized medicine can work, perhaps along some Middle Path.

One thing's for sure, the US 'system' is terrible...some of the best health-care in the world is here, but access is not just a problem but a national shame (as are inflated prices and profits).

[HeeBGBz]

85. What universe?

I suppose any is better than none. Unless, of course, they kill you.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

87. Something I forgot to mention about Japan

My oldest friends in Japan are a couple a few years older than me. Until about seven years ago, the husband was a medical school professor at a major university, but when he reached compulsory retirement age for his school, he decided to take a part-time position at a new health sciences university in a rural area that trains nurses, physical therapists, speech therapists, dieticians, everything in the health field except M.D.'s and dentists.

The university has a rehabilitation hospital attached to it, and the patients are all disabled in some way, from things like strokes, accidents, or degenerative illness. They live in rooms that they can decorate themselves, and relations between patients and staff seem to be respectful and even affectionate, certainly none of the off-handed callousness that I've seen in nursing homes here. Nor did I see drugged up and restrained people in wheelchairs lining the hallways, another common sight in U.S. nursing homes.

Anyway, it's a very nice facility, and as I was being shown around, I asked who paid for all this. The answer shouldn't have surprised me: the government counts the kinds of disabilities that the patients have as chronic or catastrophic conditions and pays the full tab.

[breakaleg]

88. My experience with Japan is a little different. They do have universal health care

which is mandatory and paid for by your employer. And you pay a nominal amount for doctor's visits but you do have to pay for your own medications - that's cheap, and I think it may be subsidized. But as for hospital visits, you do have to pay. Giving birth to a child costs about $5000 US. A hospital stay of 2 days can cost about $2000 US and this is the case even if you have Japan health care.

I know it's small compared to US prices, but compared to Canada where you pay nothing, having to shell out a few thousand dollars for an emergency hospital stay can be quite a challenge for the average family.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

90. Right, as I noted above in the thread, their normal coverage is

not particularly generous, but the patients in this hospital qualified under the government's catastrophic and chronic condition program.

I know Americans who moved to Japan early in their lives, developed a health problem while they were there, and now cannot return to the States to live because they know that they would not qualify for an individual health insurance policy (or even have their pre-existing conditions covered under a group plan for six months).

[killbotfactory]

89. I wish

At least with universal health care if you have a shitty experience you don't get billed thousands of dollars for the privilege.

[roamer65]

91. We're going to have to look to a particular state or group of states to start true Medicare.

In Canada, it started in Tommy Douglas's Saskatchewan before the Canadian federal gov't adopted it. It will probably have to start the same way here in the US. Douglas was the NDP premier of Sask and started medicare in Canada circa 1962.

[Cleita]

93. Help us get rid of Arnold in California and then we can get

the Kuehl single payer universal health care bill passed. It already has passed the legislature but Arnold vetoed it. There is a petition to force his signature in the California forum.

You know what they say, that as California goes so goes the nation. We are also a good working model as the sixth largest economy in the world as to how it will work in a big economy.

[Cleita]

92. Because this issue doesn't get enough discussion here at DU.

:kick:

[DuaneBidoux]

104. I have experience in France. All systems use rationing in one way or another.

I lived in France a number of years.

If you walk into a critical care unit in the United States where the average age might be 85 and everyone is plugged into endless machines and being kept alive by the hairs of their chiny chin chin (half probably not even conscious)--this is rationing by who has great insurance.

Such folks in France are generally made comfortable. They might spend their last days or months in hospice facilities where the primary goal is not to prolong their miserable lives another few years (or whatever they are capable of) but instead is to make their lives comfortable and peaceful until they experience a natural death.

In the United States nearly half of all money in one's life that is spent on health care is spent on someone the last year of their life. This simply doesn't happen in France. Instead, the money that is saved by letting someone go naturally is put into, for example, the immunization of 20,000 children, none of whome would be immunized in the United States.

In the US we tend to run any test for whatever reason simply because we can (and the medical system will make lots of money). I once had an American psychiatrist tell me that American mental patients only get well once their insurance runs out, and that if they don't have any insurance to begin with they are never diagnosed as ill in the first place.

The French system in very simple and holistic (at least in the initial stages). A physician will make a house visit and do a very simple and basic checkup. There is a gradual step up the system depending on how serious the program is determined to be. When you get to the "top" of the system, for example brain surgery, the survival rate is actually higher on average than the US.

The bottom line is this: if you are poor and or average, you do better off in France. If you would be rich and old in France you would be better off in the US (if you can call being kept alive by machines for a comotose last two years of life better off).

EDITED TO ADD: A look at and comparison of average health stats between France and US also shows France beating US on virtually every indicator of health including average life expectancy, deaths from heart attacks, infant mortality, etc.