Impeachment: If not now - then when?

[radfringe]

we've had alot of pro and con threads about impeachment.

From what I've gleaned, the biggest argument against NOT impeaching bush/cheney is based on political considerations, i.e. an unsuccessful impeachment/conviction process would hurt the dems in '08. Another example of politics before people?

If there were no Clinton impeachment - would the political considerations be more favorable towards a bush/cheney impeachment?

How much more will have to be exposed before poltical considerations are set aside?

if not now - then when?

[Selatius]

1. It's about politics, not principles.

Sure, you could probably prove Bush broke several laws on the books, more than enough to meet the standard of "high crimes and misdemeanors," but it takes more than that to take down a criminal president. What also is needed is "political will." Unfortunately, the latter is subject to political contrivances and manipulations. The former isn't.

[Philosoraptor]

7. Impeachment is easy, stopping the Nazis is hard.

When they impeached Clinton, they had absolutely nothing solid, but did that stop them? Yet they did it, and it was easy, no one could stop them. But, after all that, Clinton was still the president, and finished his term, bush would do the same I assume.

Impeaching one idiot would mean nothing, but if you sent up charges of high treason on about 200 of these assholes, that would mean something.

But overall, I think it's just too late for impeachment.

[MatrixEscape]

2. I would love an impeachment of the entire Adminstration

... but I have come to realize that it would only be personal and symbolic. The problems we are experiencing and seeing are of a systematic nature. I think that most reasonable and informed people would tend to agree with that.

Of course, that makes the task seem larger, graver, and even more daunting. But then, there have been times in history when greater threats and problems were faced by people with even less information, technology, and communication at their disposal when it came to the righting of apparently grave and direly threatening circumstances.

I can only see impeachment, at this stage, as merely symbolic and possibly distracting, though I would hope for the process to be fulfilled anyway. If such a proceeding were successful, (and I think it could be) I would fear that the removal of such titular heads would only serve to give the people a sense that a great wrong had been resolved and the greater problems and manipulations we face were solved. In that case, removing the current, Fascist, Military Industrialist, Corporately-owned Administration would only prove to be a diversion from the greater agenda that affects us all and diligently works with all the money and power we are obliged and convinced to give it.

When you have crabgrass, removing the plants on the surface has little effect on the roots that flourish and spread under the ground. Only some heavy-duty weed killer can help you oppose it.

[A wise Man]

9. Putting a thief, a murderer or a habitual liar in jail is not personal

Starting a war without provocation or eroding civil and constitutional rights are not personal. The republicans made it perfectly clear about their view of the laws of this land. If it is a Democratic president, they can use the "RULE OF LAW TO IMPEACH", but if it is a republican president "JUST IGNORE IT". We shouldn't in one breath say we should impeach and in another make excuses as to why we shouldn't. These thugs, gangsters, liars and thieves have not only broken the law but have sighted a new presidence of law definement.

[H2O Man]

3. "If not now --

then when?" is actually pretty easy to answer. If Congress does not have the respect for the US Constitution, for our democracy, and for the rule of law to use impeachment correctly, then "when?" can only be at inappropriate times, for purely political reasons. The democrats who parrot the line "it's a political process" are helping to make the republican abuse of the law an institutionalized reality.

[cassiepriam]

4. The dems are like a battered wife, terrified to press charges

against her abusive husband. He has convinced her
that using the laws to protect her will only harm her.

[Philosoraptor]

5. Frankly I'm tired of discussing impeachment.

I've been all for it for all these years, but it's really too late. Should've happened a couple years back. Americans don't give a fuck, they didn't give a fuck about Clinton's impeachment, didn't want it either, but that didn't stop the repubs.

And what good would it do? We've already allowed all these assholes to do whatever the fuck they want with no resistance whatsoever, impeachment isn't going to stop them from their happy little plans.

I was all for it, but now I just don't care, either way, we're all fucked.

[cassiepriam]

10. A lot of us are very tired and feel defeated. Very disappointed in America.

And in our fellow citizens for turning this country over to sociopaths.

[cassiepriam]

6. If the impeachment hurts the Dems at the polls, then Americans deserve the repugs.

I believe we always get the leadership we deserve.

[Philosoraptor]

8. True. If you don't TRY to stop them then you deserve them.

[Hubert Flottz]

11. They swore to uphold the Constitution but...

they lied like Bush does.

[fasttense]

12. Actually I see how Impeachment could be turned to favor

the Democratic party politically. If Impeachment proceedings of either dick or george were to begin in 2008.

The House could trot out every law that was broken or ignored, every person who was tortured, every lie that was told, every election that was rigged and every tax dollar that was stolen. Then they pass it to the Senate. The Senate rehashes the same crimes. The Senate votes, and every repuke who supports the bushes has to stand up and be counted. That's all need be done.

It doesn't matter if the criminal is actually found guilty. All the crimes could be exposed - twice. All the Senators who love the bushes will be exposed. The American people could vote with the full knowledge of the repukes' crimes and knowing exactly who helped them.


I bet the Democratic party would have a landslide.

[Hubert Flottz]

15. Good idea!

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

24. I agree!!!

Moreover, notwithstanding all the naysayers' point-of-view, I believe the American public would actually GAIN CONFIDENCE in the path of the political system. As it is now, NO ONE has any confidence no matter what party holds the majority in Congress. I am of the firm believe the main reason for the lack of confidence is the failure of elected leaders to actually operate within the rule of law and with some integrity.

[KharmaTrain]

13. Indictments And Convictions - If Not Now - then when???

I'll say it again, and no one has yet to discuss this issue without being dismissive or not understanding where I am coming from here.

If there were the 67 votes to convict, I'd be all over impeachment like white on rice (put your own pun here)...but even then I would be far from satisfied. Impeachement is a political show trial...it has no basis on facts or is tried on those facts...it is easily manipulated for partisan purposes and because of such, many who are the brains behind a lot of the criminality of this regime will never be held accountable for their crimes as "impeachment fatigue" is sure to bums rush the whole process and many of the crooks will just go underground for a few years like they did in the wake of Watergate and Iran-Contra and be back to do even grater damage in the future. I want this cabal taken down completely...not partially. I want this cabal prosecuted criminally, not politically. This involves a jury of peers...not of elected hacks like a Helmethair Lott who felt lying about a blow job was worth of impeaching, but voted against all the articles on Nixon when he was on the House Judiciary Committee in '74. Yah think he'd vote to convict boooshie boy? Think again.

I'll also say it again, without the 67 votes to convict, the corporate media will portray Democrats as attempting to over-throw an "elected" government and then how inept it is when the 67 votes fail to show. It also will shut down the government...not that much is going on...but it would stop discussions on many key issues that matter...health care, education...everything as the focus will be singularly on one or two people in this regime...not the dozens it should and must be on.

Justice, in my mind, will not be served until I see the Roves and Rumsfelds and Feiths and Sampsons and all the crooks that did the real dirty work in this regime brought to account for the blood on their hands and the destruction of our Constitution...anything less will mean WE have failed to protect what's left of our democracy and republic.

Again...if there are the 67 votes to convict, let's do this quick and get on to far more important business. If there aren't the 67 votes, let the investigators continue their work so a strong case can be made and brought against these criminals and demand complete justice, not just some partial made-for-TV fiasco.

Cheers...

[salin]

16. I agree - and would add...

that there need to be many, many trials - and those would probably stretch throughout the next administration - as they should. Why is this important? A "rush job" (to be the clock for the next election) would be easily diminished by the corporate media and the public psyche (ie what becomes conventionally accepted wisdom/understanding in the general publi) wouldn't get the full gist and disgust at all the malfeasance that has gone and the huge damage that has been done to our system of government, our protections as citizens and our general national security. However trial after trial would inevitably get the ongoing coverage and get the average joe/jane on the street to get a general understanding of how people in this administration have worked to subvert so many aspects of our government - and with that understanding would be desiring NO political affiliation with the GOP who have been part of the party's power nexus in recent times. In that way there isn't an impression that this was just a bad apple situation and a different GOP candidate (for Pres, for congress, for governor, heck for dog catcher) would be just dandy.

Look at how much more aware the public is that there are some very, very serious problems in the DOJ and with Gonzales - even if folks aren't familiar with all arms of the corruption/story. That is because of the investigations and how each hearing leads to more questions and more areas to probe and more areas of corruption of justice. THIS is how the investigations should unfold- and should (and in the DOJ case I believe will) lead to convictions down the road.

As is so often the case - I agree with you, Kharma Train.

Off to work for me - will check back tonight! :hi:

[KharmaTrain]

18. You Said It Better Than I Did....Again...

The scope of the criminality here is so vast...and we have just yet to dig into all the specifics. We smell the smoke...but we still don't have all the goods here...and to expect to get sudden answers is another fool's dream. The endgame of this regime is to play out the clock now...cover their tracks and avoid having to be responsible for their actions. Once they're out of power, that's when the real accounting will begin. Now we must keep pushing and digging. As you point out, look at what we've uncovered in just 4 true months of work...and that these findings have led to even more questions...and so on. And with each revelation, another nail on this regime and the GOOP's coffin is prepared.

Don't work too hard...hope to catch ya for happy hour!

Cheers...

:toast:

[fasttense]

17. But Impeachment merely kicks the bums out of office.

It doesn't put them in jail or level a fine. Impeachment really is designed as a show for the American people. It is designed to bring up the crimes but it really doesn't punish anyone. It merely kicks them out of office (if they are found guilty). Prosecution of the actual crimes will still be required if you want to see the criminals in jail.

But it is a start. It will get the crimes out in front of the public. The media of course will try to spin but it will still get out. Look how the information on the investigations is getting out. People know about them despite their viewing of Fox. I've had wing nuts talk the details of the crimes and by the time they get to the 5th crime their eyes have a funny look. They can't even convince themselves that the many crimes are just political spin by liberals. There are just too many.

No the word is getting out despite the corporate media. If Congress were to provide the people with the details, I believe the people will become so angry that they will insist on follow up investigations and prosecutions.

True, the Democratic leaders would have to be careful about overplaying it. They may not want a year long scenario. They may want to cut it short to about three to six months. Just detail the highlights of the crimes. Then have the Senate vote two weeks before the 2008 elections.

And you could still have real trials after the Impeachment. If Americans are angry enough they are not going to let the next administration sweep the mess under a rug with pardons. The way to get Americans angry enough is to do an Impeachment and show them the crimes.

[KharmaTrain]

21. Look Closer...

You say that once Congress is able to provide the people with the details, people will become angry and want more investigations and prosecutions. I fully agree and that's the major point here. Before you can indict and convict, you need to investigate...you need to find true criminality. Pure political crimes such as "misleading" or some non criminal charge avoids much of what this regime did that demands the impeachement we both agree is merited. Our difference is that I want solid evidence, solid investigation and a complete conviction...one that would enact change and lasting change.

Having lived through Watergate I saw how quickly the investigations came to an end once Nixon resigned and Ford pardoned him. The term "Watergate fatigue" was common as people had been dragged through nearly 2 years of that mess and just wanted to get onto other things. From that morass, we got the Buchanans and Chenneys and Rumsfelds and other crooks who saw Nixon's resignation as weakness.

When Poppy Bush pardoned the remaining Iran Contra scum, the pressure was on the new Clinton regime to "go along" with it as a show of "bi-partisan" favor by the new administration...the first of many bait and switch games played over the next 8 years. Those prosecutions were shut down and all but enabled the Neo-Cons to get bolder. I don't want either of these scenarios again.

Remember, an impeachment without a conviction won't achieve anything. Clinton was able to launch the military actions in Kosovo follow his impeachment and if you think boooshie would be humbled into withdrawing troops are downright delusional...if anything, by not being convicted he may be emboldened to "finish" other business like striking at Iran or some other foolish neo-con wet dream. Investigations are keeping this regime on the defensive...and again, we're just starting to learn about the specifics of the corruption.

It's not angry Americans that will settle this...it will be victims. It will be lawsuits by those illegally detained or those railroaded by a partisan Justice Department or a victim of some form of fraud by this regime that will persevere and dig for the ultimate truth. The American people will be bystanders...as they always have. The real verdict they can and must hand down will be at the polls next year in wiping out any Repugnican power that will allow the investigations to proceede.

Cheers...

[KharmaTrain]

14. Indictments And Convictions - If Not Now - then when???

I'll say it again, and no one has yet to discuss this issue without being dismissive or not understanding where I am coming from here.

If there were the 67 votes to convict, I'd be all over impeachment like white on rice (put your own pun here)...but even then I would be far from satisfied. Impeachement is a political show trial...it has no basis on facts or is tried on those facts...it is easily manipulated for partisan purposes and because of such, many who are the brains behind a lot of the criminality of this regime will never be held accountable for their crimes as "impeachment fatigue" is sure to bums rush the whole process and many of the crooks will just go underground for a few years like they did in the wake of Watergate and Iran-Contra and be back to do even grater damage in the future. I want this cabal taken down completely...not partially. I want this cabal prosecuted criminally, not politically. This involves a jury of peers...not of elected hacks like a Helmethair Lott who felt lying about a blow job was worth of impeaching, but voted against all the articles on Nixon when he was on the House Judiciary Committee in '74. Yah think he'd vote to convict boooshie boy? Think again.

I'll also say it again, without the 67 votes to convict, the corporate media will portray Democrats as attempting to over-throw an "elected" government and then how inept it is when the 67 votes fail to show. It also will shut down the government...not that much is going on...but it would stop discussions on many key issues that matter...health care, education...everything as the focus will be singularly on one or two people in this regime...not the dozens it should and must be on.

Justice, in my mind, will not be served until I see the Roves and Rumsfelds and Feiths and Sampsons and all the crooks that did the real dirty work in this regime brought to account for the blood on their hands and the destruction of our Constitution...anything less will mean WE have failed to protect what's left of our democracy and republic.

Again...if there are the 67 votes to convict, let's do this quick and get on to far more important business. If there aren't the 67 votes, let the investigators continue their work so a strong case can be made and brought against these criminals and demand complete justice, not just some partial made-for-TV fiasco.

Cheers...

[fasttense]

19. I disagree.

Americans are angry, and showing them the crimes twice through an impeachment process will add fuel to that fire. You don't need the 67 votes. The final outcome doesn't matter. The American people need to know the details of the crimes.

The corporate media can spin all it wants. They are spinning now, but even wing nuts are talking about the crimes revealed in the investigations.

When 67 votes fail to show it will identify every bush loving crime supporter in the Senate. It will identify every scared lap dog in congress and the people will know. Reid need only say now America knows who puts party loyalty over the good of the country.

Yeah it will push other discussions aside but do we really want to tackle health care immediately before a presidential election? Does the government really get much done before a major election? I doubt it.

Besides justice is never, ever quick. It takes long deliberate effort to ensure justice.

[KharmaTrain]

22. And I Want Justice...

What is making the American people angry? It's the investigations of this regime's corruption...and we're just scratching the surface. Until last January, all the corruption we did learn about was due to the absolute hubris of the most brazen of this cabal...who stupidly got caught...and just their crimes were enough to flip the balance of power in both Houses. That was with zero investigation.

Since January, we've learned about how the Justice Department has been politicized, we're starting to see the guts side of how no-bid contracts were handed to GOOP contributors, the real story of Abu Grhaib is begining to surface...and this is just the start. The extent of the corruption is deep...and it will take years to get to the bottom of...and it must be totally invstigated and followed through. We can't let any of these criminals...people intent on destroying the Constitution and your liberties, to hide under booshies or chenney's coat-tails.

We have repeated times to show the public...the very few who can't see it already...whose a boooosh-licker and who isn't. It's by forcing them to vote to sustain asshat's stem cell veto or to keep the Iraq fiasco going or for or against immigration or many other issues. As the invasion continues to be a clusterfuck, the pressure grows not on the Democrats but the Repugnicans to "cut and run"...and I'm more pissed at the failure of the supplemental, but I see that battle coming back with a vengence and I'd like that to be a major, front and center issue.

The jury of the American people will have the ultimate say here by throwing out more Repugnicans next year and with ensuing trials and convictions, we'll be able to show time and time again...in courts of law with convictions by real juries, not the corporate media, how this country was destroyed...and will keep the GOOPers from any real power for a long time.

An impeachment without a conviction shuts this entire process down and plays into the corporate media spin games you and I detest. I don't want to give them that satisfaction. I want real justice.

[G_Leo_Criley]

23. justice -- real justice

KharmaTrain you've made an amazing series of posts in this thread. :patriot:

I agree that we must let the investigations continue to expose and document every crime of this corrupt * regime. Then we must insist on prosecution of their crimes.

Thank you for these posts! :toast:

glc

[Atman]

20. We have just proven that circling the wagons trumps the constitution

The only reasons anyone can give here for NOT impeaching are "it will hurt the country," which is utter nonsense given the gravity of Bush's offenses; and more vociferously, they cry "we don't have the votes!" which is the real clincher.

That settles it. No president will/can ever be impeached again, because the democrats have demonstrated that if you just circle the wagons and make sure you party won't go along, then no one will ever bother to try to enforce the law or defend the constitution. Brilliant strategy!

We're fucked sooooooooo bad.

.