Should a state be forgiven for it's racist past if it has never apologized?

[burythehatchet]

FBI Investigated Ga. Gov in Old Lynching


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20070615/lynching-justice/

MONROE, Ga. — Newly released files from the lynching of two black couples more than 60 years ago contain a disturbing revelation: The FBI investigated suspicions that a three-term governor of Georgia sanctioned the murders to sway rural white voters during a tough election campaign.

...


He came under FBI scrutiny because of a visit he made to the north Georgia town of Monroe two days before the Democratic gubernatorial primary and a day after a highly charged racial incident there, a fight in which a black sharecropper stabbed and severely wounded a white farmer. The sharecropper was one of the four people who would later be lynched.

In a report sent to FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, the agent in charge of the investigation said Talmadge met with George Hester, the brother of the stabbed farmer. Citing an unconfirmed witness statement, the agent said Talmadge offered immunity to anyone "taking care of negro."

yee fuckin haa :mad:

[Rabrrrrrr]

1. To require an apology before forgiving is to utterly misunderstand forgiveness.

One either forgives, or one requires vengeance (which is what requiring an apology is).

One can't do both.

Forgiveness is utterly irrelevant to the actions of the one being forgiven. Otherwise, it's not forgiveness. It's vengeance, blackmail, restitution, whatever.

[burythehatchet]

3. I didn't really mean in a "cosmic" sense. A state can officially

make a statement that acknowledges the crime. That is not meaningless.

[Rabrrrrrr]

4. You're right, it's not a meaningless act. But it's irrelevant to the forgiveness issue.

[burythehatchet]

6. I would think it would need to precede the act of forgiveness

if a criminal won't reconize and show contrition for his crime, it would impede the victim's forgiveness of the actions.

[Rabrrrrrr]

7. If someone requires *anything* before forgiving someone, it's not forgiveness.

It's vengeance, restitution, etc.

But it ain't forgiveness.

Forgiveness is free, and can ONLY be free.

[karlrschneider]

13. You have it exactly backward. Forgiveness in the true sense is unconditional.

...

[kdmorris]

15. Actually, not really

At some point, the victim realizes that the hatred and bitterness and "waiting for an apology" are doing more to harm themselves than the perpetrator of the crime. And after you stop waiting for an apology and dwelling on the pain, it is easier to get to the point that you can forgive them.

With an apology, though, it may come easier/faster. I don't know. I never got one.

[karlrschneider]

20. So why stop with an apology? Hold out for a million dollars...that'll make it a LOT easier!

:eyes:

[kdmorris]

26. I doubt it

I was simply disputing that an apology is REQUIRED for forgiveness.

Don't know what the hell I did to you.

[burythehatchet]

28. that was kind of a hit-and-run

[kdmorris]

40. I certainly didn't mean it that way

I was just trying to say that forgiveness isn't a requirement for forgiveness, while at the same time realizing that everyone is not me and I'm not everyone.

Sorry about that.

[karlrschneider]

30. You seemed to be saying it was at least an incentive, if not exactly a requirement:

Your quote:

"With an apology, though, it may come easier/faster. I don't know. I never got one."

Maybe you meant something else, I wasn't trying to be nasty, I just saw what you wrote and digested it...

[kdmorris]

39. Actually, I was just trying to get along

I realized about half way through posting it that applying my personal situation to what could be a much larger issue might not be fair. I still don't think that an apology is required for forgiveness. Forgiveness, in my case, had to come from a desire to live at peace with myself rather than being eaten up all the time with hatred. I was really just trying to say that "That's just me, though", as sometimes it can be really insensitive to bludgeon someone with one's own beliefs.

So, that was pretty much what I was trying to do. Say that it's not required, but, at the same time, try not bash burythehatchet. For some people, an apology might help. For me, I had to forgive without one, for ME.

[karlrschneider]

43. I think we mostly agree, but it makes the discussion more interesting if we bitch at each other

just a little bit, huh? :D

I just thought his post was a tad ironic given the username 'burythehatchet', that's all.
;-)

[kdmorris]

46. LOL

Too bad I can't come up with something witty. I'm too tired and I've been experimenting with English Ales tonight.

Think I'll head to bed now.

[karlrschneider]

Just stay away from ROGER A(i)les

:D

Nite'

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

24. Forgiveness Merely Means Releasing Oneself Of Any Anger Or Resentment Towards Another.

There are no rules as to what the catalysts for making such a choice are. It can be due to being asked genuinely, it can be due to the passing of time and healing of wounds, or it could be due simply to the choice of someone for whatever reason no longer wanting to hold onto such resentment. But the reasons can vary by wild margins and there are no set rules. It is merely a choice by that which does the forgiving, to choose why on their own basis.

[karlrschneider]

11. So which state should apologize for appropriating the territory of what's now the USA?

Any suggestions?

[philosophie_en_rose]

123. It's hardly an either-or scenario.

Either you're a paragon of virtue that deigns to forgive someone or you're a blackmailing jerk? hardly.

You're imagining an apology as some sort of quid pro quo situation. Apology buys forgiveness. However, an apology and hearing about the other person's perspective is a means to understand what happened and why. It is easier to find peace, when there is communication.

[Rabrrrrrr]

125. I think you have misinterpreted me (though I don't think you are doing so intentionally -

you are perhaps attempting to make a logical leap based on what I said, which was germane only to a very specific set of conditions)

I was ONLY saying that to expect an apology before forgiving is blackmail, or vengeance, or other terrible thing.

I never said that an apology was a bad thing.

In the ideal situation, an apology is offered without any prodding or cajoling from the one who has been slighted. And hopefully that apology leads to dialog, which leads to understanding, which leads to reconciliation. But even if it doesn't, hopefully the person who has been wronged will find the ability to forgive the other anyway, so they (the wronged person) doesn't live in misery holding that hate, pain, or whatever.

But forgiveness that is given only because of an apology, or that waits for an apology, or requires some other restitution, is not forgiveness at all.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

2. How Do You Forgive Imaginary Lines Of Land?

I personally don't know how to do such a thing. I also don't know how to wait for an inanimate concept such as 'a state' to ask for forgiveness, when such things cannot talk.

I will, however, consider forgiving anyone who is actually still alive that partook in such deeds, and genuinely with an open heart asks for such forgiveness.

[burythehatchet]

5. I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess you ain't a black dude

if you think a state apology is meaningless you obviously have never endured pervasive racial bias.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

12. Wisdom Doesn't Limit Itself In Such Ways Such As Narrowing Its Scope. Race Isn't A Factor Within It

It does not come down to race; it comes down to the concepts of forgiveness. My answer would be the same no matter what the topic of forgiveness was.

People are forgiven. States are imaginary. A state did not ever cause harm to anyone. People within the state did. Only those people who took part in any given deed requiring forgiveness would be capable of asking for it, or requiring it.

Forgiveness is for people. Each person is an individual, and each act of forgiveness is towards each individual person. It is up to each person to ask for such forgiveness, or up to each individual to provide that forgiveness. But one person cannot seek forgiveness for more then themselves, or apologize for the deeds of others. A state apology would be such a violation, as it is just empty words that change not a thing about the reality of what any given person did. It does not wipe away each actor's responsibility. Each actor requires forgiveness on their own merits. It cannot be asked for, on their behalf, by a blanket statement from another.

[karlrschneider]

14. Also, extending forgiveness on behalf of a dead ancestor is meaningless.

Obtuse Biblical suggestions to the contrary notwithstanding...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

19. Not Sure What The Obtuse Biblical Suggestions To The Contrary Are,

but I agree with that as well.

[karlrschneider]

21. "Sins of the father visited on the sons...to the 7th generation"

That sort of thing.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

22. Ahhhhh Yes. Gotcha. I Always Hated Those Parts Of The Bible,

as I found them to be monumentally unfair and illogical.

Hopefully, such things are not occurring today, or my great great great great grandkids are gonna be really fucked. :evilgrin:

[karlrschneider]

23. Yeah, mine too. If I had any.

;-)

[JeffR]

60. I'm white, painfully white, also a Georgia voter

so perhaps I don't understand this at all, and I'd be glad to be set straight, but I don't see how a state apology does squat for anybody. While Georgia is still busy doing its damnedest to restrict minority voting rights under the cloak of the Voter ID bill, what tangible good would it do for anyone to have the state apologize for its miserable, violent, racist past? Such things strike me as window dressing.

And again, I'm happy to be called completely wrong about this. I just can't see how it matters in any substantive way.

[sandnsea]

10. *sigh*

Day after day. Jumping to the wrong conclusions.

If a wrong was committed 100 years ago, and happens to land in my lap today, then I have been given the gift and obligation to correct it.

Besides, if evidence comes to light that proves your great-grandparents are the rightful landowners of a Nevada gold mine, are you telling me you don't care about it because they're dead?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

17. Maybe It Is You Who Jumps To The Wrong Conclusions.

Forgiveness if for people, not for imaginary concepts. A politician of today cannot possibly wipe away the acts of those who committed such things, without those who committed such things asking for it themselves. Apologizing for the acts of others is never something that truly has any merit, since the only one who ever has to power to apologize for an act is the person who committed such act. If the apology is on behalf of another who did not ask for such an apology, then the apology is nothing more than empty lip service with no real bearing on reality.

Now you can choose to argue that all you'd like, but I fail to see how logically you can refute.

[sandnsea]

29. If we had EVER apologized for what we did to the Indians

Then I guaran-damn-tee you we wouldn't be in Iraq. This country continues to deny the truth about itself, that we have been a barbaric plague on the planet, rampaging from continent to continent, stealing the resources and leaving the local population in rags. Full acknowledgement, acceptance, and reparation for past wrongs is the ONLY thing that could turn this country around. You can never act in a beneficial and enlightened way if you continue to make excuses and justify your harmful behaviors of the past.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

33. You Have Completely Missed The Point.

I don't know about you, but I have never in my life done any harm to any Indian. In fact, I have a great amount of respect for their culture.

Furthermore, much like the concept of a state, a country is also inanimate and cannot offer apology. This country has never done anyone harm; only the people within this country have. Only those people in this country which have, wield any power in being able to apologize or ask for forgiveness.

As for being enlightened goes, I fear you are not of any understanding of what enlightenment is. One does not need to apologize for the acts of others to become enlightened. One needs merely to become aware of what those acts of the others were, and have the level of reasoning necessary to attain any wisdom that can be deduced from such awareness. That wisdom, if fully imparted, would then by default alter the persons perception to now condemn those acts and forever turn away from such deeds, and would then cast fully upon them true enlightenment. But no apology would be necessary for that to occur.

[sandnsea]

36. Your government has, and does

And you don't know anything about it because we have a culture of denial. We don't have to take responsibility for anything our government does, because we bless it with Christ and Capitalism.

YOU are the one who doesn't get the point. You never do. Because you DON'T WANT TO.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

42. I've Not Only Gotten Your Point, I've Provided Pure Irrefutable Wisdom Back In Response To It.

Once again; only those who have committed such deeds wield the power to apologize for them

I have hurt no Indians, and therefore cannot offer them apology.

[sandnsea]

47. Your government has and you don't give a shit

Some other generation will have to make your apologies for you, because you're too cowardly to do it yourself.

That's the point.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

52. For Someone Who Accuses Others Of Jumping To Conclusions, I Can't Help Notice How Quickly You

engage in the same.

To say I don't give a shit is as ignorant a premise as can be thrown at me. I'm here ain't I? I'm here for a reason. I'm hear to learn, to be educated, to help fight for our futures. I'm here because I do give a shit. But I cannot apologize for my government. I can only condemn them. And it is not cowardly to not make an apology on the behalf of others actions, it is instead foolish to do the latter.

I have given you much pure wisdom that you can use to think about, yet you have seemed to glare over it and not offered any refutation to any of it. Instead, you keep throwing out your same argument over and over again, which I had already refuted. Maybe you should sit, think, open your mind, and then without distraction or emotion, objectively view what's been said in this thread. Try and understand the wisdom and why it is wisdom. Then maybe we could get somewhere.

[sandnsea]

59. My god, we ARE the government

Change only happens when behaviors are acknowledged and apologized for. I own what my country has done. I am responsible to change it.

You can sit on a beach in Florida and condemn the country from now until the day you die. Won't make a hill of beans difference. Condemning doesn't do any good at all. It's absolutely useless.

Change comes from taking personal responsibility to fix the wrong. And it always starts with a sincere apology.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

67. WE Are Not The Govenment. WE Are Two People Of Different Genders Typing On Our Keyboards.

You say you own what your country has done, but I consider that to be nothing but misguided and misdirected blame intended to help you feel more whole somehow. But in real life, I own nothing of what this country has done and therefore cannot possibly be able to apologize for such actions with any legitimacy.

You must come to understand: Only those persons who committed such acts can apologize to others for having done them.

And since this conversation has become redundant and you're not offering anything that refutes my logic or wisdom displayed throughout this thread, then maybe we should stop this here.

[karlrschneider]

76. I often disagree with your opinions, but your logic here is irrefutable.

It amazes me how many DUers are so blatently obtuse when facts and logic are being discussed. :argh:

[mudesi]

81. His, and your "logic" is nothing more than a sophistic exercise in manipulating semantics

Specifically, blurring the line and splitting hairs in regards to the "state" and the "people within the state".

[karlrschneider]

88. So what exactly are you doing right now for the people of Iraq to ameliorate the actions

of your government? Put up or shut up and knock off the Dennis Miller imitation.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

90. Thanks. I've Enjoyed Sharing The Position With You As Well. I'm Hittin

the sack though, so feel free to keep goin. :)

Tonight my deeper and truest personality was at the forefront so I'm taking time to write more deeply tuned posts while avoiding the snark. Most othertimes, my impulsive and wiseass "oh shit, got only 30 seconds before I gotta run back upstairs to the kids" type personality is typin, and though still logical, has to be far more blunt and quick worded LOL

But I enjoy being in my deep state, alone in the dark, wifey and kids asleep. Means I can actually CONCENTRATE on what it is I'm actually writing! LOL

But I had a long ass day, so I'm hittin the hay. Have a good one and keep up the good fight. It's been a pleasure seeing things eye to eye, even if only till morn. :)

:toast:

[karlrschneider]

96. It's all good. Sleep well.

:D

[sandnsea]

84. Plausible Deniability - Just Like I Said

Pretend you aren't responsible for anything so you don't have to do anything about it.

I got it right away.

You just didn't like to see reality splashed in your face that way.

[karlrschneider]

91. So what are YOU doing to help the victims of the guy in Oregon who

killed the family of 4 last year? You do live in the same state so you obviously bear some responsibility.

[sandnsea]

95. Yes I'm responsible

I pay taxes to provide a host of services to crime victims, as well as the cops and courts and jail to keep criminals behind bars. WTF kind of stupid question was that?

[karlrschneider]

104. It is my best of times, it is your worst of times.

You will have a Dickens of a time getting past my ignore list.

[mudesi]

97. The prosecutor ought to quit

Why even bother to prosecute that guy? He only killed his family, he didn't kill The State. The State of Oregon ought not to butt its nose in, if it even has a nose, since The State is Just An Imaginary Concept. :eyes:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

94. Please Then, Oh Keyboard Guru, Enlighten Me As To What I AM Responsible For. Please, Enlighten Me.

What are these things I am to be responsible for, but am avoiding. Please, make me aware of these things I not yet know.

I'm heading to bed in a few minutes, but please indulge me with these responsibilities on my shoulders that you claim I should have.

Thanks!

[sandnsea]

105. You're completely irresponsible

There. Feel better?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

107. BBZZZZZZZTTTTTTT. You Failed. Knew You Couldn't Do It. Goodnight Now.

I'm wagering you have very little, if anything at all, left to offer.

Goodnight and God bless.

[sandnsea]

112. Nanny nanny boo boo to you too

Are you on the create your own reality team? Part of that denying all errors and responsiblity and team that we're all so familiar with?

[karlrschneider]

55. Here's an idea: You apologize to the Iraqi people for "your" government.

See how much street cred THAT gets you in Baghdad.
:eyes:

[sandnsea]

62. Bad Bush, bad bad Bush

How is that doing any good?

The FIRST thing the next President has to do is APOLOGIZE and admit we were wrong. Then the work begins.

Sitting in the oval office and issuing condemnations of the Bush Administration won't mean shit to Iraq, not in 2009, not ever. It requires an APOLOGY.

[karlrschneider]

68. You can't even keep your own agenda straight.

A President apologizing for his predecessor's actions is a completely different scenario from what you have been advocating. And you apparently don't understand the distinction between apology and reparation.

[sandnsea]

74. The OP was about the STATE

I've addressed BOTH personal and government responsibility. It doesn't matter whether it's Obama apologizing for Bush, or Obama apologizing for Jim Crow, it's the same principle. Apologies and reparations are both required when a wrong has been committed. I would have thought you'd have learned that in kindergarten.

[karlrschneider]

82. We will know you are sincere when you have researched your geneaology back to Adam

and covered every unpaid debt by every person in your ancestry to the descendents of their contemporaries. It's only fair and reasonable by the standards you've proposed.

[sandnsea]

86. I've gone back about 400 years

I haven't found any unpaid debts or murderers yet.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

99. No, I'm really not

My family settled the St. Louis area, and Canada before that. So I guess the whole friggin' country is my fault.

[karlrschneider]

49. I'm the great-great-grandson of a murderer. What -exactly- must I do to satisfy your

apparent wish for compensation? Be specific.

[sandnsea]

50. Did the murderer pay for his crime?

Is there undone damage? Was someone else wrongly accused? Do you know? If there's lingering damage and you can fix it, you should. Pretty damn simple.

[karlrschneider]

57. Bullshit. I'm not responsible for my ancestors' actions. You aren't responsible for yours.

Maybe these odd claims you make are connected with some goofy religion you may embrace but they're absolutely irrationally nuts. And how the fuck does one 'undo' a murder? Pray for a resurrection? Do you have any idea how crazy you come across?

[sandnsea]

64. If I can fix something, I would

If someone was wrongly convicted of a murder that I had discovered my ancestor had committed - I would fix that. If I discovered my wealth (if I had any) came from a murder my ancestor had committed - I'd fix that.

It isn't crazy - it's personal responsibility. I've discovered that those who yammer about it the most, don't really have a clue what it means.

[karlrschneider]

69. Oh, you would FIX it. How Godly of you.

Do you perform a lot of resurrections these days?
:eyes: :eyes:

[sandnsea]

78. #44

Nope, nobody expects you to be rational.

[karlrschneider]

87. You're not the first precocious 9th grader I've ever encountered.

And probably not the last. HAHAHAHAHAHA

[mudesi]

51. Here's a hair

Care to split it some more?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

56. Sorry Pal, Your "hey everybody, look at me! I'm gonna say something witty" Schtik Failed Miserably.

No splittin hairs goin on pal, so not sure what your void of logic premise was.

Oh yeah, I forgot, it was to bait the BIGGGGG BADDDDDDD OMCCCCCCCCCC. :rofl:

[mudesi]

58. Time for a recharge

You better hurry up and go back to Sincere Compassionate Mode for a little while longer. You're wasting your hit points too quickly.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

73. Now That's Suprising: A String Of Noncontextual Nonsense From You.

Do me a favor and open your bag of tricks. If you happen to come across intellect, reasoning, deduction, context and objectivity while in there, let me know. Then we could talk.

[mudesi]

77. .

[slowry]

32. Do you get off on taking contrary positions, based on fucking technicalites of language?

Oh wait -- I fucking know the answer to that.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

37. Do Not Confuse Technicalities With Logic. This Is About Wisdom, And The Wisdom Is Pure.

If you read more of it in this thread, and cast aside opinion based on emotional impulse, but instead breath, think, open your mind, and be objective, then you could see what I'm saying is right.

[sandnsea]

41. That's a very very common response to racism

They didn't do it, so they don't have to think about it or care about it. No language technicality to it at all. Plausible deniability, I think is what it's called. If you haven't seen one of them lynch someone, then you can't say they are a racist, and they can consequently ignore all the racism around them.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

48. That's Hands Down The Most Inaccurate Analogy To Be Used Towards My Words. It Is 100% Illegitimate

That's not what's being said here at all. Not by a long shot. I fear it is you, afterall, who is doing the conclusion jumping in error.

[sandnsea]

54. They're your words

"I have hurt no Indians, and therefore cannot offer them apology."

You can't say that because you don't know what's been done in your name.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

61. I Can Say That And There Have Been No Acts Done In My Name. This Is Just Silly Now.

I urge you to go read though each of my posts in this thread, then print them out, sit in a dark corner, breath, disallow distraction, open your mind, and let objectivity guide you to awareness. Maybe you will then see.

Your arguments have gotten weaker and weaker, and you still have yet to refute the wisdom within mine. Is there any point in going further?

[sandnsea]

65. Is this your government or not?

Everything this government does is in YOUR name. Or are you not a citizen?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

80. Everything The Government Does Is In Their Name, Not Mine.

For something to be done in my name, it would have to have my direction to implement. The government has no such direction from me. So therefore, they do not do their deeds in my name. They do them in theirs. They must apologize for their actions. I cannot apologize for them.

[Retired AF Dem]

121. I didnt vote for this Govt

They are not doing anything in my name.

[burythehatchet]

120. the argument fails when one considers that the curret descendents

of the victims are still paying a heavy price for the crimes of the past. I, too, have been a victim of racial bias; mine was in the workplace. No matter how subtle or meaningless it my appear to a third party, it still causes pain and anguish for the victim. In my view, if any of the perpetrators in my life had or would apologize, it would mean a lot to me. Ive forgiven them, but if they recognized the hurt they caused it would give me some greater peace.

[gravity]

101. I agree

The people who were responsible for the racists policies should apologize.

Expecting the states to do so is a little absurd. It shouldn't even be an issue.

[sandnsea]

8. It's more about trust

Forgiveness is mine to give. One can release anger, judgment, condemnation towards a person or institution. But trusting them to do the right thing is a whole other matter. I can forgive the entire prison population. Doesn't mean I think they should all be out on the streets again.

[karlrschneider]

18. Ah. More "conditions." Your 'forgiveness' only extends to the extent your lips can serve.

How nice.

[sandnsea]

25. And if I gave unconditional forgiveness

to the murderers and rapists and child molesters, then you'd call me a naive bleeding heart. Whatever Karl.

[karlrschneider]

27. Nope, I'd call you a normal human. Nobody does altruistic things. Ever.

You don't need to apologize for being imperfect.

[sandnsea]

31. No you wouldn't

But I guess if you enjoy pretending, I'll go ahead and forgive you your imperfection.

And not forget who you are, and that you're too damn old to change.

Just like a rapist or murderer or child molester doesn't change.

[karlrschneider]

34. Get some help.

I am serious.

[sandnsea]

35. Karl, you are who you are

Who are you trying to kid?

[karlrschneider]

38. I am exactly who I say I am. I don't hide behind a pseudonym.

My personal information is highly public here and all over the internet. I never kid. You don't have to like me, and vice-versa, but by God what you see with me is the real deal, so don't EVER question my bona fides, "sandnsea", whatever the hell -that- is supposed to mean.

[sandnsea]

44. See, now you've really lost it

Just like I said. You are who you are, nobody expects you to be rational. I can forgive you a thousand times over, but I don't expect you to change.

I don't know what in the world your name has got to do with anything. My name is Sandy Todd, anybody who knows me at all knows that. I've never hidden who I am.

[karlrschneider]

53. NOBODY expects me to be rational?

You say you've never hidden who you are... So why the 'handle' here on DU? That is EXACTLY hiding who you are.
(Although I congratulate your coming out of the anonymity closet in that post...isn't it liberating?)

[karlrschneider]

9. Maybe we really should "burythehatchet"

??

[arewenotdemo]

16. Only time in my life I EVER voted Repuke was in a

the Talmadge/Mattingly US Senate race in 1980. Talmadge started referring to Mack Mattingly, originally from Indiana, as a "carpetbagger". I was originally from Ohio and had just moved to Georgia that year, but knew a little about Talmadge, though hadn't heard the story above.

[Catherine Vincent]

45. I guess they should be forgiven, whether it apologizes or not.

But their racist past will never be forgotten. :mad:

[burythehatchet]

71. how can it be forgotten...it lives on today

and in Atlanta its about to get worse. The white affluent northern burbs have iniatiated a final separation from Atlanta. It's one of the most rabid conservative enclaves in America.

[Catherine Vincent]

100. I chuckle at White Flight"

No matter how far out they move, they can't go very far.

[ellisonz]

117. There is nothing funny about "White Flight."

White Flight tends to be followed by resistance to needed taxes (Prop. 13) by the ruling White (i.e. Anglo-Saxon) class in order to undercut the social mobility of the exploited classes. It is the new segregation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight
Pasadena in depth (my home town, I am a 2004 graduate of Pasadena High School: http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/journals/EH/EH37/Gray.html

[burythehatchet]

119. the virtual fence

use the city to build your economic base then dump the city. It won't stop. The inner cities have to develop a new paradigm of sustainability and prosperity.

[KingFlorez]

66. You can't be forgiven for something you don't apologize for

That said, I don't think an apology from a state really makes any difference, because the damage is already done and the people who did that damage are long gone.

[karlrschneider]

72. Jesus would disagree with your opinion.

Just sayin'...

[KingFlorez]

115. That's just what I believe

I don't see how forgiveness is possible when there isn't any remorse on the part of the guilty party.

[karlrschneider]

116. Oh, I understand your position. You want to put conditions on it.

I don't even disagree with that position but I have to admit at least to myself it isn't genuine. But then I also don't believe anyone ever does any truly altruistic thing. Even if you or I do something we -perceive- as being only for the benefit of somebody else, the fact it makes us "feel good - for doing it" is prima-facie evidence that we did it for
(possibly even unintended) selfish reasons.

[burythehatchet]

75. the way I see it, the people who did it are long gone, but the people paying the price

even today, the descendents of that generation who remain disenfranchised, embedded in crack filled streets and with no hope. So since the people ho did it are gone, the only choice is for the state to make an official apology...or not.

[karlrschneider]

108. How much money would be an acceptable substitute for an apology?

Be honest. What's your answer?

[Nikki Stone1]

70. No

..

[Marrah_G]

79. I'm going to apologize to myself

The Pilgrim genes in me would like to formally apologize to the Native American genes in me.

The Native American genes in me accept the apology and forgives the Pilgrim genes in me.

There, I feel better now!

[Blue-Jay]

83. Someone help me out here...

I don't really see the point of any particular state "apologizing" for atrocities that were committed over a century ago. I'd be more interested in those particular legislators actually working to prevent the CURRENT practices of racism that are happening today.

Apologizing for slavery seems to be a well-intentioned, but empty gesture to me.

"I'm sorry for what my great-grandfather did to your great-grandfather."

"That's cool. Can I have a job?"

"No."

[Marrah_G]

85. !

:applause:

[sandnsea]

92. Its like family dysfunction

If you don't break the cycle, you continue it. Standing up and owning these atrocities helps to break the cycle. It forces people to deal with racism when they see it today.

[Blue-Jay]

98. OK... I guess so....

It's just that I can't seem to hold people responsible for what their ancestors did.

I hold people responsible for what they're doing right fucking now! THAT is what we can try to "fix". That is what we need to "fix".

Like I said, I think it's a nice gesture, but does it get you a job? Does it equal justice? Great, you apologized; now DO something!

[sandnsea]

103. Admitting guilt is a first step

Wouldn't it be nice if every state that ever held a slave or poisoned a Native American or stole land from a Mexican, would step up and admit it?

That would be a great first step in healing this country. And maybe if white people in this country would stop considering themselves the ruling class, they could take a new look at how they impoverished third world countries as well.

[Blue-Jay]

106. "Sorry I stole your land, dude."

"Great! Can I have it back?"

"What? Is that some kind of joke?"

[sandnsea]

109. Maybe if we admitted we stole the land

instead of pretending we had a God ordained right to it, we'd treat others better in the future.

Why should we treat Indians better if we have a right to the land, and they're really just a bunch of cry-baby leaches who refuse to become civilized.

There are people who don't care that we destroyed entire cultures, and consequently don't care if we destroy the Iraqi's either.

That's why it's important. Too bad you want to trivialize it.

[Marrah_G]

111. I've yet to meet anyone who diesn't understand how wrong the Native Americans were treated

[sandnsea]

114. Meet more people n/t

[Blue-Jay]

113. I wasn't trying to trivialize anything.

I'm sorry you got that impression.

[Marrah_G]

110. And then...

We could have every Native American tribe that had ancestors that killed a member of another tribe apoligize and then we could have every Mexican with spanish blood apologize to every native mexican and the the native mexicans can apologize to all the groups they have harmed, and so on and so on.

Rome should apologize to half the world. So should Mongolia.

I'm not trying to be snarky here, but the changes need to come through enforcement of laws and the teaching of future generations. Without those two things, no apology in the world by a few people in a state senate is going to change things. The change has to come from the individuals in the state and more importantly through each sucessive generation.

Just my two cents.

[karlrschneider]

102. That was a wonderful post. Distilling the issue to its essence.

:toast:

[gravity]

89. A state isn't a person

I think the premise of the thread is ridiculous. The governors and legislatures who were racists should apologize, but expecting the states to do that, however the suppose to do it, seems a little far fetched.

[mudesi]

124. Do you celebrate the 4th of July?

...And this is for all the others in this thread who can't seem to comprehend that the above opinion is based solely on personal bias. Namely, passive bigotry.

"The State isn't a person". Really?

Then why do you light fireworks on July 4th every year? The people who founded America are long gone. Dead. Why do you celebrate the good things dead people did for other dead people, but refuse to acknowledge the bad?

What about that whole "Constitution" thing? It was written well over 200 years ago. Surely you don't care about some old document written by some ancestor of yours! Why should you hold it so dear to your heart and defend it so vigorously? Why stand for the national anthem? Why recreate the civil war? IT'S ALL IN THE PAST! THEY'RE ALL DEAD! WE SHOULD FOCUS ON THE HERE AND THE NOW!

Your opinion is sophistry to the highest degree. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume you're white.

The STATE should apologize for past racism in the same way that the STATE takes credit for its past accomplishments.

[ellisonz]

118. NO! It's called social justice. In America, the people are sovereign and therefore responsible.

All societies have a basic structure of social, economic, and political institutions, both formal and informal. In testing how well these elements fit and work together, Rawls based a key test of legitimacy on the theories of social contract. To determine whether any particular system of collectively enforced social arrangements is legitimate, he argued that one must look for agreement by the people who are subject to it. Obviously, not every citizen can be asked to participate in a poll to determine his or her consent to every proposal in which some degree of coercion is involved, so we have to assume that all citizens are reasonable. Rawls constructed an argument for a two-stage process to determine a citizen's hypothetical agreement:

* the citizen agrees to be represented by X for certain purposes; to that extent, X holds these powers as a trustee for the citizen;
* X agrees that a use of enforcement in a particular social context is legitimate; the citizen, therefore, is bound by this decision because it is the function of the trustee to represent the citizen in this way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice

THIS IS OUR AMERICA - ALL OTHER ARGUMENTS ARE SOPHISTRY

[philosophie_en_rose]

122. No.

There is a fine line between forgiveness and enabling. To "forgive" something that is continuing is not some cosmic virtue. It enables continuing bad acts and places all of the responsibility upon the injured person.