Lou Dobbs - "Top 5 Dumbest Things in the Immigration Bill"

[TahitiNut]

Lou's Top 5 List

Top 5 Dumbest Things in the Immigration Bill

5) Taxpayers will pay for the immigration lawyers for illegal aliens if working in agriculture.

4) Illegal aliens would be given legal status just one day after their application is filed even if a background check is not completed.

3) Gang members are eligible for amnesty if they renounce their gang status.

2) Borders do not have to be secure before the amnesty program begins.

1) $2,600,000,000,000 -- That is the cost the Heritage Foundation estimates to cover the retirement benefits of 12,000,000 illegal aliens if this amnesty bill becomes law.

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/lou.dobbs.tonight/

:evilgrin:

[Vincardog]

1. jr is doing everything he can to bust SSI

[Skidmore]

2. What are you evil grinnin' about?

He's right on several points. The nation can't sustain these free market practices forever. And, also, for those out there who jump on the bigotry wagon everytime this subject comes up, the 70% of people in the polls who have problems with immigration policy are not all Republics.

Darn, we don't have a rasberry smilie.



:D

[TahitiNut]

3. DU is rarely as logic-free as when it "discusses" illegal aliens.

:shrug:

[Sapere aude]

4. This is an attempt at a reasonable discussion not an argument.

What is the alternative to this bill? I rarely hear anyone be specific about what they think will happen if laws are enforced as they stand now. I know the argument is that the jobs will dry up and the illegals will go back to Mexico. I don't think that will ever happen. They have children who are citizens here and the reason many of them are here is to give a better life to their kids.

Employers in the construction and farming industries will not suddenly hire only legal citizens and raise wages to what they were years ago. Most agriculture is done with contract labor. If the illegals go home I doubt they will be replaced by legal citizens. Rather than pay higher cost for labor they would mechanize the picking.

It is my thinking that the reason people are against this bill is not that they are bigots but they are uneasy with the cultural changes that are taking place. I was that way at one time. I think that we will never go back to being the culture we were years ago. The changes are permanent.

It is also my belief that the illegals are being scapegoated. I think most of the things said about the effects of illegal immigration are not true.

I also think that if the illegals became citizens they would be a voting part of the working class and rather than being pitted against each other we could form a large majority of workers who could take over the political sphere of this country.

The Hispanics are growing the labor movement and what things they gain for themselves accrues to all of us. They are better at organizing than we are and they are fighting for and getting better working conditions and wages while we sit and complain about the situation.

Basically what I am saying is that things will never go back to the way they were.

[TahitiNut]

5. What sense is there in having another law that's not enforced?

It seems to me that we claim to be a "nation of laws" and then abandon any semblance of political integrity and walk away from both the laws and our obligations as sovereigns in our own self-governance.

In every 'discussion' I've seen on DU, little or no distinction is made between enforcement and law - with the more common rhetoric being that both should be ignored. Well, exactly what substantive difference is there between ignoring the 1986 laws and ignoring a 2007 law? Clearly, if this legislation creates some entitlements, people will be happy to take advantage of the entitlements - but just what drug does one take that makes anyone believe that any commitment to any law would exist and would materially eliminate the problem from continuing as before?

[Sapere aude]

6. My point is that the "problem" will never go away and we need to deal with that.

The only real "solution" is that we learn to live with the changes in our culture and attempt to slow as much as possible any more illegal immigration. The bill would deal with people that are here now. That is the only sane thing to do.

[Critters2]

8. Wrong.

If labor and wage laws are enforced, employers would have to pay a living wage. If that were the case, Americans and legal immigrants would do the jobs illegal immigrants are doing now. The way to do this is REALLY fine and punish employers of illegal immigrants. If there were no advantage to hiring them, the jobs would dry up and they would return to their homeland--and presumably bring pressure on the governments of those nations to make reforms that would make life more bearable.

Illegal immigration pushes down wages, and pushes Americans and legal immigrants out of work. This is an injustice. It can be changed with enforcement of laws already on the books.

[Sapere aude]

9. Wrong!

There never was nor will there ever be a living wage paid go farm workers.

You are simply dreaming if you think wages will go up if illegals leave.

[Critters2]

10. Simple supply and demand.

Wages are pushed down by a surplus of workers. Dry up the supply, and the price of labor will inevitably go up. This was covered on the first day of Econ 101.

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

12. Why is there no sympathy for American workers?

Do we not have American CITIZENS in poverty?

What about them?

Let's stop flooding the labor market. Period.

[Critters2]

14. Well said.

:thumbsup:

[papau]

30. The bill's enforcement provisions does stop the flooding of the labor market - and the guest

worker program fills the need for harvest workers since it is hard to get even illegals to work for minimum wage in the fields.

As to his 5 points -

What legal work is funded for "illegal" aliens working in agriculture - is he talking about setting up guest worker status?

What legal status is given beyond being brought into the system of labor laws by being given an S-visa?

The 3rd one is a flat out lie ("Gang members are eligible for amnesty if they renounce their gang status").

What part of the S-Visa being issued is an "amnesty" program beginning before borders being secured. Has he even read the bill?

As an actuary I have to laugh at how hard the far right works to avoid hiring an actuary to give them good data - the number "$2,600,000,000,000" is bull - I know of no study that shows the 12 million will be a burden on the system's finances as they move thru the economies various income levels over their working lifetime and emerge at age 67 as SS retirees. You'd have to assume that they would be the first group that never rose in pay and quality of job over time to get any hit to Social Security.

[LBJDemocrat]

62. Nonsense.

Yeah; the BILL may have provisions that, if enforced, could stem the northward labor flow. But you know damn well that it won't be enforced and you know that if Wall Street didn't like the bill, it wouldn't get support from both political parties as well as the Wall Street Journal.

[AzDar]

33. Exactly. There was a story making the rounds earlier this week regarding

the fact that most 30-somethings were not earning as much as their fathers before them. REALLY??
Could it be that Americans, especially those in the 'middle class' are being hammered from all directions: cheap illegal immigrant labor driving down wages overall; the cost of food, gas, and health care rising exponentially at the same time...
Is it so much to ask that our politicians take care of the basic needs of U. S. CITIZENS, before those of people who are here illegally?
George W. Bush wants a legal, cheap, VOICELESS, slave-labor pool for his corporate cronies, and this 'Comprehensive Reform' is his gift to them. It legitimately serves no other purpose. It is TREASONOUS.

[PsN2Wind]

35. Those of us in the border region

(Southern that is) have a better grasp of the costs of the influx of illegals. We're the ones that are being required to try and teach English to large numbers of them. We are the ones paying the cost of medical care for them and their families and we have to pay the huge cost of incarcerating those that are here for nefarious purposes.
I would like to see a provision in this bill, that will almost surely pass, that the entire cost of assimilation be born by the Feds rather than dumped on the states as it is now.

[depakid]

39. You must have missed the rest of the term...

without cheap farm labor, US farmers will end up letting crops rot and will eventually go bankrupt- they won't be able to compete with imports.

There's no way to pay living wages unless US consumers are willing and able to pay MUCH more for their produce (which they're not) and even if they are, there will be movement along the demand curves AND depending on what the crop is- shifting of the demand curves to adjust for the higher prices.

Less demand of course, puts downward pressure on prices- the activity uneconomic (as well as causing substitution).

All in all, bad news for just about everyone.

[Skidmore]

48. The only problem with supply and demand we have

is that there is a shortage of employers willing to pay living wages to the American worker. These policies have created a de facto slave class. The slave master gets away all around because he/she doesn't have to even supply housing for these workers. This whole thing stinks and all the perfume you spray on it can't cover the stench of exploitation and corruption of this steaming pile of BS.

[TahitiNut]

53. I have to agree. The fact that an amendment sunsetting the "guest worker" program ...

... which passed by one vote in the Senate, would 'kill' any chance to this bill to pass betrays the core agenda: categories of cheap labor, including illegal aliens and people with absolutely no intention of becoming citizens and no path to citizenship being exploited for their willingness to sell their labor cheaply.

We have ten million Americans forced out of the labor force since January 2001 and right-wingers gnashing their gums about how the minimum wage will supposedly cause unemployment of teen-agers and unskilled workers. It's about squeezing pennies out of labor for the sake of profiteers.

It's also about the 'market value' of the means of production, e.g. agricultural land, packing plants, etc. As wages are suppressed, the 'market value' (based largely on the availability of cheap labor) goes down - just as it goes up when cheap labor is harnessed to work the fields/factories. "Investors" want to profit and the larger the profit then the higher the market price. This is how the equity/investor markets drive labor compensation down - screw the worker to inflate the market price.

[Selatius]

15. It's a bit more complex than that. Many illegal immigrants are not migrant farm workers.

They are found in many parts of the service sector from hospitality, customer service, tourism, trade, etc. Only a fraction of the millions of illegal immigrants found in the US are occupying farming positions. Farming has never really been that profitable for anybody except if we're talking about cash crops.

[TahitiNut]

28. Quite often, they're employees of 'body shops' ...

... set up to isolate the liability from the firms in which they're doing work. This is most common with custodial services. It's a 'double-dipping' kind of exploitation - both the shell company principals make money from their labor and the 'client' company rids themselves of the expenses of in-house labor. Out-sourcing without the inconvenience of off-shoring. The shell company can easily go bankrupt, having almost no assets or retained earnings, and the principals just start up another shell company and keep on truckin'. (That's how slim the enforcement is.)

[papau]

31. 'body shops' have existed for all of my working lifetime -55 yrs - and illegals were not the main

source of labor -

Perhaps now they may be over half that labor force - but the shell companies will exist with or without them.

[TahitiNut]

32. And the point is ...? Newsflash: Farms have existed even longer.

The 'body shops' got a huge boost during the Reagan/Bush administration when Moynihan inserted language in the COBRA that elevated the penalties for companies hiring temps (programmers, in particular) and using them like employees. What had previously existed as some common sense guidelines for the IRS, none of which were hard and fast, were imposed on employers and fucked over freelance programmers big time. Companies (like IBM) stopped contracting directly with individuals altogether and required freelance programmers to be employees of the temp agency, for example. They also prohibited temps from working more than 18 months out of 24 at the same company. These changes forced freelance programmers to form corporations of their own or surrender 15% to 25% of the contract rates to some agency on the "approved" list. (I won't even try to be comprehensive about how this screwed many individuals.)

Moynihan supposedly rationalized the changes in the law to protect migrant laborers who were 'employed' as temps and day labor - continuously - and for whom no employer's share of FICA taxes were paid, no benefits accrued and who were treated as 2nd class labor. Guess what? It didn't work.

I merely point out the fact that such body shops are used to isolate the ultimate client from the liabilities associated with hiring illegal aliens. In a somewhat similar fashion, the Department of Energy is composed of about 90% contract employees - people who, even though they might work for decades solely on DOE activities, do not get civil service benefits or federal employee protections. The taxpayers actually wind up paying MORE while the employees are getting LESS. This is brokering human labor - like body shops - and further reduces human beings to commodities.

[papau]

34. All very true - it is just not solely an illegal alien issue. In the early 80's I was

taken back a bit when one of my kids then between high school and college landed a summer job writing the speeches for the then Secretary of the Department of Energy - a company in Virginia had the contract and I had contact with the head of the company. He said he had a technical writing chore and I was surprise that speeches at that level were outsourced to my kid to write. Reagan gave us a lot of new ideas, didn't he?

I do recall the contract work at IBM dying for a lot of friends when that law was passed - most incorporated.

[TahitiNut]

20. That ignores the fact that it's people/workers who do most enforcement.

Let's get real - down and dirty, OK? The vast majority of laws and regulations regarding employment are either (a) the basis for a cause of action in a civil suit or (b) civil misdemeanors that require a complaint and testimony. We do not live in a society with police monitoring our activities. (At least we haven't been.) Nobody knows this more than employers who've chosen to gain a 'competitive advantage' by violating the laws - a behavior that has a risk/reward ratio that amounts to a "cost of doing business." Clearly, the "cost" is far lower than actually paying a living wage or market wage - where 'market' is citizens and legal residents.

When people are held hostage by an employer, either so-called "guest workers" who're expelled before their 24-months-put-of-36-months is up or "illegal aliens" who can be jailed on top of being unemployed, they are extremely compliant with an employer's exploitations.

Employers have many ways to hold people hostage - with health insurance (and "pre-existing conditions) or by visa considerations (employee forced to leave country at their own expense) or by black-balling people and preventing them from any job that checks work history and checks references. Why do you think the majority of employers are now walking people out the door, under guard, as soon as they're fired or laid off?

The basic problem is we've got a working class that's being disenfranchised ... many can't vote and many cannot "fight the system" and survive economically.

What even worse is we've got HUGE NUMBERS of people who don't even WANT to enforce thse laws ... even on DU. It's naive in the extreme to think that this behavior will change - unless there are nearly draconian steps taken to punish employers and the virtual elimination of imported (sanctioned) labor. I just don't see that happening in the foreseeable future.

[DemBones DemBones]

13. Exactly. We've been through this movie before

so we know the ending -- a re-run.

If this bill passes, we're going to allow people who broke the law to get into the country to remain here and become citizens, with no criminal record.

Is selctive law enforcement a good thing?

What about American citizens who are in prison for minor offenses, notably possession of marijuana? They're not getting an amnesty and will have a criminal record when they get out.

[Selatius]

17. It's a remake of a 21 year-old classic, which starred Ronald Reagan and a 1980s Dem Congress

[DemBones DemBones]

64. . . .

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[napi21]

36. I disagree with you on several points.

Employers will only hire legal workers (notice I didn't say citizens) after several business owners are heavily fined and jailed for 2 years or more! Trust me, these people DO NOT WANT TO SEE JAIL FROM THE INSIDE!

Wages won't rise to their old lever "right away" but they will rise, and certainly a lot faster if they don't have a scared workforce that they can constantly hold threats of the INS over them.

I'm against the bill mainly because it just doesn't make logical sense! I'm positive there will be few if any illegals who can afford to pay fines of $XXXXX. I didn't insert a dollar figure because I've heard anything from $7,500 to $32,000 and I have no idea what's real! In any event, how many illegals do you know who can afford even the low side of $7,500? Certainly noe that I know! Then there's the 24 hour background check. Are you kidding me? What magician is going to do that?

An to be honest, I am disgusted that our politicians are using this issue as a "means to expand THEIR political Party voter support"! For God sake, is it too damn much to ask that they do something that is GOOD FOR THE COUNTRY for a damn change?

I know things can never go back to the "way we were". I'm not even sure I want them to. I'll tell you what I do want. I want people to obey the laws of this country, or fight to have them changed. I want the illegals to group together, like the workers did when they formed the first unions years ago when the workers then were being exploited and abused. I want them to form groups and say we aren't going to take this treatment anymore, and if you don't change and give us more money, we won't work, and we won't let anyone else in here to work either. Strength in in numbers, and they all need to recognize that. The employers are only interested in two things, MONEY and SURVIVAL!

[suziedemocrat]

50. I know a guy who went to England for a job w/o the right paper-work and was escorted to the plane

at gun-point! Is there another industrialized country in the world that has as much trouble controlling who lives and works there as the US does? This is all about cheap, powerless labor. The labor coming in is cheap and powerless, and therefore puts downward pressure on the wages, and rights, of US citizens. The only people who like this are the people who will make money off that cheap, powerless labor. Since they have lots of money to donate to campaigns, they'll almost certainly get what they want.

[DemBones DemBones]

Absolutely, you can't slide into most countries and

get amnesty. You have to have a passport or national id card with you at all times.

And you are right: it's all about cheap, powerless labor. Some employers take away their illegal employees' papers so they can't go home. They can treat them however they choose to because illegal aliens aren't likely to run to the police for help.

[pampango]

72. Wouldn't immigrant labor be less powerless, if they were legal?

If the Immigration Law of 1986 had allowed these 12 million to immigrate legally, they would not be as powerless and afraid to run to the police. The law did not do that, but would not legalizing them now accomplish the same thing?

[DemBones DemBones]

65. Absolutely, you can't slide into most countries and

get amnesty. You have to have a passport or national id card with you at all times.

And you are right: it's all about cheap, powerless labor. Some employers take away their illegal employees' papers so they can't go home. They can treat them however they choose to because illegal aliens aren't likely to run to the police for help.

[Bridget Burke]

52. Immigrants have been changing US culture for a long time....

Immigrant haters need to stick to the "economic" arguments. Many who hate "ILLEGALS" save their sympathy for American Citizens--forgetting that we have lots of legal immigrants, too. Who patronizes all those tax-preparers in Houston? The ones with signs in Spanish & other non-English languages?

My father's parents came legally--they showed up at Ellis Island & passed a physical. No expensive immigration lawyers needed. The Great Age of Irish Gangs had ended; my grandfather quit his job in the mills to join the police force.



(Perhaps I should change my Username.)



"They breed like rabbits! They send all their money back home!"

[kittykitty]

54. My grandparents immigrated from Hungary in 1910 with 6 children, came thru Ellis Island, and did it

the right way, too. Later they became citizens, and prospered. But before that they had discrimination problems--someone threw a dead dog in their living room. My grandfather died 8 years later, and left my grandmother with 10 children. Fortunatly the older ones were able to work and support the family. They were poor.

They all picked up English--and not by attending classes My grand mother kept saying "be somebody", and they found their way to law school, engineering school, and my Dad to dental school (He sold his blood to get tuition money). And of course the 2nd generation were all college educated and prospered. I imagine this story is not unusual for those emigrants that arrived before WWII.

Here they are in 1954. I'm the cutie on the floor in front of my Nagymama (grandmother)

[Clark2008]

7. It was an interesting list until I got to the point where it cited the

Heritage Foundation.

Now, the whole list is suspect in my mind. :)

[Gelliebeans]

46. I hope you are doing ok?

I have been keeping an eye out for your user name to see if you had the baby yet. :)

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

11. I have the feeling that most of those who support this bill here have never had to compete

with immigrants for a shitty job.

Instead it's what I think is Hollywood sentimentality.

[TahitiNut]

21. I suspect there's more truth in that than not.

:shrug:

[DemBones DemBones]

24. I think you are exactly right. And they are not aware that

the poor and blacks, whom we claim to care about, are hurt most when illegal aliens take their jobs.

NAFTA, CAFTA, SHAFTA and GATT, WTO, IMF have screwed up the world. "Free trade" is an abomination.

[in_cog_ni_to]

16. The gang thing here is BULLSHIT. That's what the repukes were spewing today on The Senate floor

and it DOES NOT give amnesty to gang members. IF someone is in a gang, they CANNOT stay here. IF someone broke the law, they CANNOT stay here. Read the Kennedy amendment. I caught bits and pieces of Cornyn's BULLSHIT this morning, but Kennedy and Whitehouse set him straight on the facts. Don't believe everything Dobbs is saying. He has an agenda.

Also, don't the immigrants have to pay BACK TAXES BEFORE THEY CAN BECOME A CITIZEN? If so, wouldn't that cover their SS?

[Critters2]

18. When you say "IF someone broke the law, they CANNOT stay here"

does that include using forged documents? That would mean a huge number couldn't stay. I don't see that happening. The Chamber of Commerce wouldn't stand for it.

[Selatius]

19. The Chamber of Commerce wants illegal immigration as a weapon to destroy labor unions. n/t

[Critters2]

22. That's exactly right.

They oppose any enforcement of laws which make it more difficult to hire undocumented workers. Cheap labor is the CofC's best friend.

[TahitiNut]

23. Yep. There's no doubt about that, imho.

:shrug:

I see absolutely NOTHING in this Kabuki that'll change that.

[OzarkDem]

61. Is this the deal?

In exchange for letting the Iraq Resolution slide, the Dems decided to appease the labor unions by caving in for a minimum wage hike and appease the corporations by supporting Bush's immigration bill.

I guess they thought the labor unions would be happy enough to not object to the Immigration Bill since the Dems traded Iraq withdrawal for minimum wage increase.

What a lame policy strategy. Zero leadership, crappy short term policy, totally FUBAR. My son in high school could have come up with a better one than that.

If this is an indication of how the Dems plan to govern with a majority in the House and Senate, I think I need to find a new hobby. I can't stand to watch this slo-mo train wreck any longer.

[in_cog_ni_to]

25. I would assume so. I'm sure there are many illegals here who have no illegal documents.

The spouses and children of the illegal father/husband. HE may have illegal docs, but the others don't NEED any documents. If the parents are illegal and the kids are born here, they are citizens. Right? The kids have a birth certificate and, if they're old enough, a drivers license. The mom wouldn't need any documents if she doesn't drive or go to school or work. What would she need documents for if she's a stay at home mom to LEGAL citizens? But, as far as your question goes, I would think Kennedy's amendment included illegal docs. I haven't read it though.

[knowledgeispwr]

44. About the Kennedy amendment

I believe the Kennedy amendment does not include illegal docs. I skimmed through it.

[PsN2Wind]

26. I've tried to make the point TahitiNut

that a decision such as this is too important to make without a careful study of the impact, culturally and economically.
I think a test program should be run, before passing a law, which would gauge the impact positively or negatively.
I can think of no better place than New Hampshire for the test. As they are currently lily-white, the benefit or lack thereof of the increased diversity would show up in a very short term.
This would require the government to ask for volunteers without regard to legality to be relocated to N.H. in order to bring that state to reflect the US average of minorities. They could be given a stipend until they found work there and integrated into the communities.
By the time of the New Hampshire primary, all the presidential candidates, who are in the state attempting to kiss every baby and shake every hand, will have been told by the citizenry there how the test is working out and if they see a positive effect on their economy and culture.

[enki23]

56. that's not very thinly veiled, you know

.

[PsN2Wind]

66. I didn't think

it was at all veiled, unless the thought of some is we should allow this to go forward as long as I am not effected.

[KoKo]

27. I hope the Immigration Bill goes DOWN...because I don't believe either side...

either the Bush/Kennedy Side or the Lou Dobbs Side.

And...because I know the Chamber of Commerce has lobbyied for lax Immigration Rules. I have a feeling if the Bill goes down it's because of them...they love cheap illegal labor.

But..there's not enough information that we could "know" about the bill but would find the "evil details" later.

I think it's a mistake to equate what's going on with immigration in American to times past when my Irish ancestors came in (but I have some who came in the 1700's on another side of my family) I have fiends whose families came in during the huge Italian Influx and I know we have Asian American DU'ers whose families came in to work on Building the RAILROADS in the late 1800's.

We are ALL HERE in one form or another from some kind of immigration policy and many of our ancestors were also illegal.

BUT THIS IS MASSIVE ILLEGALS coming in for jobs when NAFTA was supposed TO STOP THIS and MAKE IT BETTER.

So...I don't think politicians on EITHER SIDE are telling the truth about this or the ramifications. So, I'm not in favor of any bill passed with weak Dems and driven by and Idiot President supported by the RW Repugs and the US Chamber of Commerce.

I hope the damned thing dies until we have more time to look at the WHOLE PICTURE and not LOU DOBBS and KENNEDY's VERSION!

Maybe this sounds like crap...but I'm sick of hearing about it. BTW I wonder more about my gas stations "convenience stores" having so many Nigerians, Haitians and others that seem to shift through and it looks like a "money laundering operation" to me.

Plus the plight of all those "Chinese Chop Shop Restaurants and Buffets" all across America that the NYT's EXPOSE said was part of SLAVE LABOR where those people are bussed across America from back roads to truck stops to big cities never knowing where they are but just "SERVING" in those mushrooming Chinese Places that dot every crossroad in America! The same thing with our Convenience Stores who have changing faces of "Black Folks" who speak English but speak to each other in African Languages. They stay for a month and then "shift on" to another store.

There's an UNDERGROUND ECONOMY IN AMERICA with IMMIGRATION ...and it isn't just "Illigal Mexicans" coming across the border...it's OTHER STUFF that most Americans don't even acknowledge or understand unless one is observant. :shrug:

[OzarkDem]

60. Doesn't Kennedy have better uses for his time?

He's chairman of the HELP committee, there's a large number of issues, bills, etc. that should take priority.

Note to Sen. Kennedy's staffers - get busy on something that is going to make a difference. You know Bush is only going to run you around in circles.

[UTUSN]

29. Lou is *in* the immigration bill?!!1 I did not KNOW that!!1 n/t

[libnnc]

37. Personally, I think the only people who should have

a say in the immigration debate are Native Americans.

They should be the ones to decide what to do with all the illegals, since this is their nation after all.

:shrug:

Can I get a ticket back to Amsterdam?

[TahitiNut]

38. Please let me know when you get even one Senator or Congressman to agree ...

... and sponsor that legislation. I just love the "realistic" postures taken on DU. I have no problem with principled positions - but I try hard to keep 'em on this planet.

:shrug:

[libnnc]

40. I just think it's silly all the nationalistic chest thumping about

illegal immigrants here.

My ancestors from the Netherlands weren't invited to the New World by its indigenous peoples. And once they got here, they weren't exactly concerned about adhering to the wishes of the Cherokee.

I HATE being a slave to historical context sometimes!

[girl gone mad]

47. There were people on this continent...

long before the Cherokees.

Maybe we should poll them, instead. :shrug:

[Jed Dilligan]

41. Once again, I want to mention landlords

People seem to think that immigrants can magically survive on less, somehow, when they live in the same environment with access to the same stores and the same fees to pay for various services.

The problem is landlords who allow people to overcrowd dwellings. Native-born Americans are out on the streets because we're used to a room of our own. Immigrants monopolize housing because they are willing to sleep five or ten to a bedroom.

If the landlords were forced to follow existing codes, either the immigrants would have to demand more money for their labor, or rents would go down. Either way, everyone but the slumlords wins.

[truedelphi]

42. I'd add this: the hoopla that this bill somehow changes things

With the exception of amnesty for twelve million people, basically every proposal in the bill is already spelled out in some other piece of legislation.

Tt was passed quickly by both parties so both parties could a) go home and enjoy the Memeoreial Day holiday
and b) feel that they had done something that might allow them to receive some extra votes from the newly emigrated base

[w4rma]

43. This bill needs to be killed. It's bad for America. (nt)

[OzarkDem]

58. It does

US needs to enforce existing immigration laws, go after the employers and take some time to come up with a solid policy, if it needs changing.

[Chulanowa]

45. Ahhh, good ol' Heritage Foundation

Take a look-see here: http://www.heritage.org/experts/index.cfm

Just who's "heritage" are they talking, do ya suppose?

[alfred e bush]

51. moneywise

their probadly right....large families...low wages....medical and food stamps for sure...maybe some cash

then sec 8 housing...wick (more food)....ssi for kids

just had a girl with six kids apply...all fathers in jail....900 in cash 700 food stamps....free housing thru sec 8....heat and eletic piad up to 1400 a year...medicaid for all

she couldnt bring home this much with a masters

[Chulanowa]

57. Ah, the "Welfare Queen" hypothesis?

Was she driving a Mercedes, by any chance?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

49. If you do look at the loop holes, you'll find that it is an awful bill and can bring us one more

step towards a North American Union. They also want to start using biometrics...

[Orsino]

55. This is Lou's issue...

...and a valuable distraction from real journalism.

[Skidmore]

67. This is an issue for the American people.

It was long before Dobbs took it up. Goes all the way back to the free raiders hijacking the economy. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. That 70% of people upset about this issue are not all Republics--like it or not.

[Orsino]

73. The issue is that people are upset about it...

...and that it can be used to keep people upset and distracted. In this way, it's distinct from real issues.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. Which are 5 good reasons why complete amnesty should be granted.

The "illegals" would become citizens and be participants in society rather than exploited workers with no vote and no say.

[Bridget Burke]

69. But if the bill is opposed & stopped...

By those weeping for "the American worker"--the situation will remain the same. Millions of workers--from a country with a strong labor history--will remain unable to organize legally.

And those "Friends of the Worker" can go back to opposing "Big Labor".

[pampango]

71. Exactly. Those wanting to kill this bill will likely succeed, and...

they will be stuck with the same 12 million illegal aliens who are already here and more will come, since nothing will have changed.

Lots of people have suggestions of "prosecute this guy" or "build this wall". There is no political will, in any administration, to pursue these solutions, without a balanced approach. That is what Kennedy is trying to accomplish - toughen penalties for employing illegal workers, enhance border enforcement, and show some compassion for the illegal immigrants already here. (Heck, many of us complain loudly when the administration's immigration raids break up families with American children.)

A point to consider - what if the Immigration Law of 1986 had provisions which allowed the 12 million "illegals" now here, the right to immigrate, so that all of these people were here legally? For those who believe that they are a negative force on wages and employment for American workers, that impact would still be there (though mitigated to some extent by the fact that they are "legal" and harder to exploit). How much less would we complain about these immigrants if they were "legal" rather than "illegal"? (Are most us in favor of permitting such large numbers of immigrants legally or or do we prefer an American labor force that is more primarily restricted to current American citizens?)

[Bridget Burke]

74. As I've said many times--when my grandparents came over from Ireland....

They just showed up at Ellis Island & passed a physical. They didn't need to hire expensive Immigration Lawyers or pay huge fines.

Welcome to the USA! Now, get to work!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

76. My Irish granny and her 4 kids took the train from Canada to "steal American jobs".

As far as I know, she never became a citizen, and may have been "illegal". My mother and aunts became citizens when they married Americans.

[ComerPerro]

63. and just what do you think 12 million working, taxpaying illegals will bring in?

[PsN2Wind]

68. With "Family reunification"

my guess is at least 40 million.

[NC_Nurse]

70. This bill is not going to fix any problems.

I don't see the motivation to become legal when you have to pony up $5000, you might lose your job because what will be the advantage of hiring someone DOCUMENTED that is covered by labor laws. Doesn't the head of the household have to go back to the home country for a year too?

It ain't gonna happen.

Employers need to be busted for hiring illegals, period. Then the flow will slow because the jobs will dry up.

If you want to get really pissed, come to the state hospital with me and see all of the patients who are their getting FREE CARE and are not even paying taxes when other hard-working folks who pay taxes and have insurance cannot get a break and are often denied the treatment they need.

I have no problem with legal immigrants. So don't bother calling me a racist.

[Bridget Burke]

75. Texas doesn't have a State Income Tax.

We have Sales Tax--which everybody pays. And Property Tax--don't think that renters don't pay more rent when this tax goes up.

No, I won't bother calling you a racist.

[NC_Nurse]

78. Yep, but most other states do and

then there's Federal income tax, and payroll taxes for Medicaid, Medicare and SSI.

Thank you for not bothering. I hate that.

[Bridget Burke]

79. Hate away.

Do your patients know how you feel about them?

Couldn't you get a job in a lucrative private practice where you won't be annoyed by deadbeats?

[NC_Nurse]

80. I don't hate them. I hate people calling me a racist when I am

talking about something that has nothing to do with race. It has to do with people who own businesses and corporations exploiting the poor immigrants AND THE REST OF US.
I treat all of my patients exactly the same, professionally and with respect. That doesn't mean I don't see when injustice occurs. I don't blame the illegal immigrants, it's not their fault.

And no, I'm a nurse, not a physician. I cannot practice privately.

[triguy46]

77. Its a Trojan horse.

This may be my paranoia, so if I ramble on past 500 words, slap me in restraints.

1) The immigration bill is widely unpopular across the electorate.
2) The MSM and talking heads are feeding the fear factor of the voting public
3) Repubs are staying miles away from it.
4) Bush has absolutely nothing to gain or lose with this.

ERGO (?)

When the 08's come around, any dem that has been a part of this will be a target of the repubs for supporting *'s "amnesty" bill.

I get real defensive about controversy. I am highly suspicious when we fall in line with ANYTHING * and Rove do.

Forget the bill itself, I think this is purely a ploy to sucker dems into being seen as being on the wrong side of a very unpopular issue.