The trouble with the left and the real war on terrorism (not Iraq).

[Hamlette]

Clearly we in the West are contending with several tectonic shifts all at the same time.

One of these shifts, the one most germane to the question of Ramadan, is this: for a long time - probably over a century - those of us on the left have felt at least an intellectual sympathy with the dispossessed, Fanon's "wretched of the Earth". Sometimes this sympathy crossed over and became emotional, personal. We felt that the poor and oppressed could - if only they had access to resources like we did - become "just like us". This is what drove left support for the various "national liberation movements" like those of Cuba etc.

Now, however, we are seeing a dispossessed class, namely the Muslim immigrants and near-immigrants (like the killer of Theo van Gogh), with which we can have very very little sympathy. These are people who aren't and probably never will be "just like us". They are implacably hostile to everything the Enlightenment West stands for. Indeed, they advocate a return to the kind of barbarism that the West (partially) escaped only after a very long struggle.
. . .

There *is* a threat to us and our values. It's a threat unlike those we've dealt with before (even the Soviets were, ultimately, children of the Enlightenment). The problem for leftists is (and this will take time to work out): how to ally with conservatives on the issue of defending the West and its values, *without becoming conservatives* ?

We need a new left-liberal identity that has shed the old-time "liberal guilt" and its patronizing multiculturalism, that is unapologetic about standing with the West and all enlightened societies against barbarism, notably Islamic barbarism. All of this is going to take some time to work out.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/06/the_left_and_th.html#more (although the link is to Sully's blog, it is NOT his work but one of his readers.)

This is something that has troubled me for some time. We went through the "do we have to accept female genital mutilation as part of multiculturalism" and the "english only" debates but after reading Infidel by Hirsi Ali I have become alarmed.

I fear we are not talking about this on the left. If we are, I'm not hearing it. I do think fundamentalism is a threat to our way of life. I think the Christian right can (and will) be brought into line before they try to bomb us into the middle ages but I'm not so confident about radical Islam.

I think we have to take a stronger stand. I see what happened to Theo Van Gogh and Hirsi Ali and with the Danish cartoons as signs of harder times and harder questions to come. Anyone else?

[CJCRANE]

1. The rightwing

is growing and using al-Qaeda because it serves their purposes.

The way to defeat religious fundamentalism is through promoting secularism, human rights and international law.

[Hamlette]

4. how does that help what is happening in Europe?

or don't you see that as a problem?

And how do we "promote" those things? Through sanctions? While I think they were better in Iraq than what is happening now I don't like it.

[CJCRANE]

11. Europe can look after itself

and the invasion of Iraq is what has helped increase islamic fundamentalism tenfold because B*sh has given himself the appearance of being a christian extremist on a "crusade" with no respect for laws of any kind.

[Hamlette]

16. I agree Iraq increased it but Denmark?

And what do we do now? Withdraw and hope it goes away? And hope what happened in Europe doesn't happen here?

[CJCRANE]

19. I don't know much about Denmark

but I doubt there are roving squads of fundie muslims attacking cartoonists every hour of the day. Things have moved on and the flap seems to have died down but I gues you would have to ask a Danish person about that.

[Hamlette]

24. I've read that they were surprised by the boycott which was very costly

and basically ran Ali out of the country because she was a target of terrorists. They are edgy and elected a pretty conservative government probably as a result. And no newspaper in the US would publish the cartoons? Or anywhere else in the world? We should have replied by every newspaper in the world publishing the cartoons on its front page the next day but we did not. Out of respect? Hell no. Out of fear. But I would not support not publishing out of respect either.

And France? Sheesh. The guest worker program brought in many workers from the Middle East who don't want to leave and are a pretty big problem in the ghettos around Paris. (And probably brought us Sarkozy in part because I don't think the left is seeing the problem, let alone addressing it.) And we're passing a guest worker program? I don't like it.

[CJCRANE]

33. The French muslims aren't fundamentalists...

and they are a problem leftover from French colonialism. Let them figure it out.

I don't blame you for being concerned about immigration but the problems in European countries are due to their own unique histories and for them to handle.

[CJCRANE]

20. As for Iraq

that was a secular (non-religious country) before the invasion. Now it is a de facto islamic state.

Our biggest allies in the ME are absolute monarchies running islamic states and our allies in Central Asia and North Africa are mainly dictators. Attacking Iraq (and possibly Iran and Syria) has nothing to do with promoting freedom or fighting fundamentalism.

[ulysses]

2. These are people who aren't and probably never will be "just like us".

Why? And why is Islamic barbarism more notable than any other kind?

[Solon]

5. Its because they are Muslim, of course...

It has nothing to do with the fact that most of the nations where fundamentalists spring from are recent colonial possessions, with anti-democratic governments, and/or have been overthrown, by the United States when they elected democratic governments.

[ulysses]

9. damn, I keep forgetting that pesky "Muslim" thing.

[Hamlette]

6. uh, because it is directed at us? n/t

[ulysses]

8. so was McVeigh's bomb. n/t

[Solon]

3. This guy overvalues "western" values way too much...

And exaggerates the threat of terrorism, and broad brushes, ah fuck it, let's just call him what he is, a bigoted asshole. The fact of the matter is that people, most people, don't give a shit about anything beyond where they are given their next cheque, and whether they can feed their kids. This is true of Muslims, Christians, Satanists, whatever. Its only a small minority of folks, fundamentalists and general assholes, who fuck everything up for the rest of us.

The fact of the matter is that the War on Terror is a fucking farce, and this person does us no favors by legitimizing it.

[ulysses]

7. what I'd like to know

is what values are exclusively Western?

[Hamlette]

12. maybe not going back in time? Freedom of speech and the press (such as it is)

The stuff in Infidel or Karen Armstrong's writtings don't trouble you or from Looming Tower?

[ulysses]

14. sure, I just don't think we in the West have a corner on the market of reason.

[Solon]

15. Uhm, some muslim nations had democratic "western" traditions for as long or longer than Europe...

Iran had an elected government in 1953, and it wasn't the absolute first democratic like government in ancient Persia. The fact that the government now is a theocracy is due largely to the fact that people go to extremes when threatened from the outside. Its a simply fact, the more belligerent the US is, the tighter the Mullah's grip.

[Hamlette]

31. I'm not arguing that point. What we did in Iran in 1953 was criminal.

(But it is not exactly true they had "western" traditions either. While they were more tolerant of Jews they have never treated them as equals, for example. Same with Christians. Ever.

They have had horrid leaders, no doubt. Leaders who sold their country and people to the highest bidders (us). And when we couldn't buy them, we invaded or overthew.

But this is NOW. We need to get our heads around what we have created now and start talking about it. It's not when we get out of Iraq (Jan. 2009 at the latest) but what we do after we get out.

[Solon]

37. Since when was treating Jews equally a "western" value, its a modern value...

and we should stop with this "western" shit. Its stupid, to be frank, Jews were legally barred from a lot of places, even in the United States, up till the 1940s and 50s. The fact of the matter is that when we talk about NOW, we are talking about the recent past as well. Iranians are paranoid of the United States, they actually think they are under siege, looking up at the sky waiting for American warplanes to bomb them at any moment. This is partially the government of Iran's propaganda, but it is also the fact that they are well aware of their own history with US, and because of that history, they don't trust us.

The best way to disarm a terrorist is to actually get rid of the recruiting tool of the terrorist. Stop antagonizing the people of a nation, and they may stop hating you. The United States isn't a target because we are the most "free" nation on the planet, its because we fuck over others, no more, no less than that.

[ulysses]

38. "We need to get our heads around what we have created"

Hell yes we do. Of course, this is somewhat like telling the French the same thing in 1939.

It's not when we get out of Iraq (Jan. 2009 at the latest)

"Earliest" I'd say, as an aside.

but what we do after we get out.

1. Quit fucking with folks in the developing world. There's probably not much we can do to put the lid back on the Pandora's Box we opened in Iraq, but there are plenty of other areas in which we can feed people, forgive a few debts where it would be helpful, and otherwise let them fecking govern themselves. Crazy people get followers when the populace is hungry and the crazy guy can point at an outside/imperial power and scream, "It's their fault!". The French in 1940 could have told you that.

2. Wash, rinse, repeat.

[StudentProgressive]

10. Easy solution: ally with Muslims who are sick of this terrorism crap

AND the imperialism crap. And there's plenty out there for you to ally with.

[annabanana]

36. Welcome to DU, StudentProgressive!

I like the way you think! The vast majority of Muslims would like nothing better than grow and administer their own governments, thankyouverymuch. If the US wasn't being held by the short & curlies by the oil cartels we might have more room to maneuver.

:toast:

[Kajsa]

13. I hear what you're saying, Hamlette

It's difficult for me to criticize those of the Islamic faith,
however, I have no problem with recognizing the threat
extremists of any faith or belief pose.

Because Muslims have been targeted since 9/11, I am
defensive for them, recognizing how much garbage and
untruths circulate on the internet regarding Muslims and
Islam.

However- do the extremists pose a threat to us?
Yes! They have made it clear that our values are unacceptable to them,
not least is non-compliance with Sharia Law.

[CJCRANE]

17. Bin Laden himself

who B*sh and Cheney are fond of quoting, has said that his cause has nothing to do with attacking "freedom" in which case he would have gone after Sweden! The issue is to with freedom within muslim countries and even then al-Qaeda are mainly facilitated by govts as a geo-strategic tool.

[Kajsa]

22. How can Al-Qaeda facilitate

freedom within Muslim countries?

What kind of freedom, rights do they advocate for?

[CJCRANE]

25. Because they are mostly run by dictators.

That's where the al-Qaeda support comes from. As for what rights they advocate just look to see what fundamentalist christians want in America and you'll get a good idea. BTW I don't agree with those ideas - I think both fundamentalist muslims and christians are useful idiots for the global elites to manipulate.

[Hamlette]

18. whew, I was beginning to think I was the only one

when the song "Baby it's Cold Outside" freaks them out, we have to stop and think what is worth protecting and what are we willing to "give" to multiculturalism.

[CJCRANE]

29. Have you ever been to a muslim country?

I can sure you that they're all not in up in arms about "Baby it's cold outside". They all have very different cultures, african, asian, arab etc with different ideas.

on edit: plus of course european (eg Bosnia and part of Turkey) and persian.

[Solon]

34. Actually, he should go to Alexandria Egypt...

That'll be a learning experience, seeing a bunch of young Muslim women wearing the hijab, but their clothes are as revealing, or more revealing than what American girls wear. In addition, most young Iranians are quite westernized, and probably listen to the same crap we do.

[Solon]

30. Who the fuck are "them"?

[Hamlette]

32. I"m talking about Qtub...where the jihadist movement started. n/t

[Cults4Bush]

27. That is also true of most Muslims though.

just saying.

[Truth2Tell]

21. Sounds like brainless anti-muslim garbage to me

"...Muslim immigrants and near-immigrants...are implacably hostile to everything the Enlightenment West stands for. Indeed, they advocate a return to the kind of barbarism that the West (partially) escaped only after a very long struggle...There *is* a threat to us and our values.

WTF are you talking about? Ohhhhhh, be very afraid.. the Muslims are "hostile" to "everything" you "stand for".

I've spent quite a bit of time with Muslim immigrants (I'm not so sure about "near-immigrants", whatever the F that means) - and I've totally missed this advocating for a return to "barbarism". Go figure.

Your post is a perfect example of the kind of ignorant American attitude that's lost us the respect of the the rest of the world.

[Warren DeMontague]

23. He's right, one problem is Fundamentalism. But the question is *how* do you fight?

Because invading countries and killing people is a piss-poor way to "free" them. It's like the Buddhist parable about the goose in the bottle; how do you get the goose out without breaking the bottle?

The answer is, you don't. The goose has to get itself out. But you can feed the goose while it is inside.

Obviously, Iraq for instance has done nothing but create more terrorism. More fundamentalism. Bad for most of us, but good for our fundy nutjobs who are positively orgasmic at the thought of an 'end times' confrontation between the bad fundy nutjob anti-sex gay hating god and the good fundy nutjob anti-sex gay hating god.

So what's the alternative? Shit, I dunno. We've spent upwards of $400 Billion in Iraq so far. Anyone want to bet we could have achieved better results in the middle east if we had carpet bombed the place with medicine for sick kids, drinkable water, and a healthy dose of big screen tvs, porn and high grade marijuana? How long do you think folks would listen to the uptight mullahs then?

Seriously.

The other thing we need to do is stop being repressive, repressed and anti-freedom at home. The best way to spread democracy and freedom is to LIVE it. First things first, we need to stop letting OUR Chistian Version of the Taliban run everyone else's lives here at home.

[Hamlette]

26. I agree. We absolutely MUST live up to ideals and be an example.

And I agree Iraq was/is a disaster. It has made things MUCH worse. Played right into their hands. But so did the sanctions under Clinton, to a lesser degree.

I wouldn't take that bet.

[Jed Dilligan]

28. This sounds like that RW spam that was going around

"Spain has already fallen. France is fading..."

Just another lame attempt to make everyone fall in lockstep to support any and all wars.

[porphyrian]

35. I don't buy that.

I don't make the assumption that just because someone is poor or oppressed, they are good people. I don't help the poor out of guilt, I do it because it is the right thing to do. And when someone is wrong, not for their ideology, but, for example, when they kill people out of aggression, I don't give them a pass just because they've been oppressed as a group. I'm a liberal.

We don't need a new kind of liberal. We need liberals to actually act liberal, which isn't weak or apologist.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

39. It's not an either/or situation.

I feel no compulsion to join with any group, or individual, that resorts to violence as a means to achieve power. Whether they are Jihadists or "enlightened" westerners fighting Jihadists.

I have no sympathy for the Jihadists but I would like to point out that "enlightened" western nations have slaughtered far more people than the Jihadist "barbarians". If barbarism is measured in carnage, exploitation, calculated destruction of societies, torture, and terror, the Jihadists are hopeless amateurs.

We just use more sanitized means to perpetrate the terror and more sophisticated rationales to justify the killing. A bomb dropped by a plane is just as, or more, destructive than a roadside bomb.

“What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy.” - Gandhi

[mopinko]

40. western values like a record number of executions in TX?

georgie's western values? like second class citizenship for women? like the death penalty? like the futile care act? like abandoning science in favor of fairy tales? those western values?
how about we return to reason, and set an example?

[MadHound]

41. The difference between the right and the left on this is in how to confront this issue

Yes, fundementalist Islam is a threat to our society, there is no doubt about that. However where the right and the left differ on this is in how to deal with this threat. The right, as always, is quick to reach for the gun, and sadly with Bush and conservatives in power, the cross also. However will that really succeed? Or are all that we're doing with a militant response to fundementalist Islam is confirming their worst fears, fulfilling their direst prophecies?

Rather the left suggests a better, more peaceful way of dealing with this, and that is to engage fundementalist Islam in a war of ideas. After all, that is how this all started, is with an idea. No amount of bullets, bombs or soldiers will kill an idea, only a better, more appealing idea will be able to supplant the idea of fundementalist Islam.

We saw this starting to work with Iran, and then Bushboy had to shoot off his mouth and send in the troops. It can work elsewhere, but only if the US stops using force and instead starts using diplomacy, kindness, charity and intelligence. Sadly, since that seems to be the harder row to hoe, I doubt that we'll ever take that approach.