TB man never got married in Europe

[peaches2003]

At least that's what the mayor of the town in Greece where they were to have married said. He said they didn't have the right paperwork and couldn't get married. That was just reported on CNN.

[Sequoia]

1. Well, well, it just gets more interesting.

I knew a couple who wanted and went over to Switzerland to get married but they didn't have the propoer paperwork either and still aren't married 4 years later.

[Sukie1941]

2. I saw their wedding ceremony on TV

It looked like a nice ceremony, bride with groom and their child was also there.

So not sure what is going on......

We have sooooo many more problems in the US than this TB situation. Truly.

[snagglepuss]

5. I think your wrong. I think this is important because of what it

reveals. One that US border guards wantonly disregard warnings that flash across their compters and a lack of preparedness.

A DUer in another thread posted the following:

"from Countdown last night

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/05/31/rachel-maddow-... /


Stewart: "So, in your opinion, what could or should the government have done differently without running afoul of civil right's concerns?"

Maddow: "The first thing the goverment should have done is have a plan. The single scariest thing about this entire response and everything we've learned in the last two days was the statement by the head of the CDC, Julie Gerberding, when she actually said, we just kind of had to make up the plan as we went along." "

[valerief]

10. I wonder if the warning was actually in place. It's so easy for this

I-don't-care administration to point the blame at frontline workers.

[snagglepuss]

13. It was in place. One of the news reports showed the large warning box

that flashed on the border guard's screen.

[AZBlue]

27. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

And I agree with you on the importance of this story - it shows our incompetence and weaknesses in several areas. Several scary areas.

[peaches2003]

11. I only know what CNN reported

CNN should have had more than one source if they reported this incorrectly. If you saw the ceremony it sounds like CNN was wrong UNLESS... the 'wedding' was held as planned but it really wasn't legal because of paperwork. Wouldn't be the first time that's been done.

It is her child, by the way, not theirs. On one of the rw wacko sites posters were aghast because they said it was their child and 'he didn't marry her for 8 yrs!'. Of course they blamed it on him being a lawyer and probably a DemonRat.

[snagglepuss]

3. Given that both Speaker and his fiance are lawyers this is

beyond belief. I'm sorry but these two are total idiots if they didn't have the paperwork in place.

[Renew Deal]

6. Here's the requirements

It's a pain.

FOR UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

There are 2 different ways to gather your paperwork:

*First way*

Send your birth certificates and your divorce if any for Apostille stamps (total 3 stamps) to your Secretary of State and contact your US Embassy in Athens to give you an Affidavit, 2 papers in total, 1 for you and 1 for your fiance. You can contact the embassy here 91 Vasilissis Sophias Avenue, Athens 10160, Greece, Telephone: [phone] and email them here [e-mail]

*Second way*

1. Marriage license from your country (we know it is valid only in the USA but we still require this)

2. Bride's and Groom's copy of their passports and you must be older than 18 years old. (If you will have your own witnesses, we require a copy of their passports as well).

3. Birth certificates the long form for both with all the information in print and not handwritten.

4. Single Status letter from your State registrar.

5. A notary public statement saying you are free to marry. To see how it looks like, please click here.

6. Divorce Certificate (final decree) or Death Certificate if any. (If the bride and/or groom have been divorced, a divorce decree is needed. The bride may not marry if she has been divorced for less than 10 months.)

7. If you have changed your name, we need the court certificate for that.

8. Apostille stamp for each US paper separately from your State Department. PLEASE NOTE THAT THE BIRTH CERTIFICATES NEED THE APOSTILLE STAMP FROM THE STATE THEY ARE ISSUED AND NOT FROM THE STATE YOU LIVE. For more information please click here.

9. ALL papers must be translated and authenticated ONLY by a Greek Embassy or Consultant OR via our agency. NO OTHER SOURCE IS ACCEPTABLE.

10. You have to be in Santorini 1 working day after the wedding to register the wedding and the Town Hall will send you the marriage certificate by post.

http://www.santoriniweddings.com/Legal_Papers.htm

[WinkyDink]

12. No pain: Marry HERE. Ta-da.

[Coyote_Bandit]

7. Ummmmm

Not necessarily.

I worked with a guy who was French and had family living in France. He was legally married in the US to an American woman. They were a very young couple - he was early 20's and she was only 18. They wanted to have a big church wedding ceremony in Paris. In France a couple is required to have a legally recognized civil union before clergy are permitted to perform a ceremony. They made the mistake of assuming that their official US marriage certificate would suffice as proof of their legal union. For whatever reason, it didn't. They did learn the error of their ways before her family made the trip for the big ceremony. Still, they were very surprised and disappointed.

[snagglepuss]

14. Was he or his wife lawyers? To be lawyers and be clueless that

other countries may have specific legal requirements is mind-boggling and doesn't say much of them as lawyers.

[Coyote_Bandit]

15. .

They were not lawyers. But I am.

Most lawyers do not maintain research materials in their library that detail even the basics of laws in foreign jurisdictions unless they have a business reason to do so. Even then they will hire foreign counsel rather than render their own opinion and recommendations. Malpractice considerations dictate that is the prudent course of action. Many law libraries do not have materials available to research those technicalities. Outside of a university law library it may be difficult to even view the relevant materials.

Law schools do not usually require their students to study international law or learn its technicalities. Most law schools provide zero practical experience in the basics required to practice in their own jurisdiction. Can you imagine graduating from law school and being licensed to practice without ever having drafted even the simplest of wills? Or a civil complaint? Or papers for an uncontested divorce with no minor children, property or debt in issue? Or without having secured the release of a client from jail? Or without having made an appearance at counsel table in a courtroom? Sad to say but it happens with some frequency.

Being licensed to practice law does not necessarily imply that one is even a law school graduate. In some states one can study law by correspondence before sitting for the bar exam. In at least one state it is still possible to apprentice. And most states have a form of reciprocity in place so that if you are licensed in one state you can transfer that license elsewhere - subject to a few restrictions.

Bar exams measure competence of newly licensed legal professionals. Those bar exams consist of a multi-state component and a state component. The multi-state component is a standardized test of six common law subjects - property, contracts, torts, criminal law, evidence and constitutional law. The law in the state may actually be modified by statute in such a way that the common law tested is not even applicable. The state portion is usually a series of hypothetical situations requiring written essay answers. To pass one usually needs only know the generally applicable law and apply it to the hypothetical situation at hand. Buzzwords and verbal and persuasive skills are more important to success than knowledge of the law.

For what it is worth, I have taken two bar exams in two separate states and successfully completed both. I did not even read (much less study) half of the review materials for one of those two exams. I know folks who failed that bar exam who were far more knowledgeable of the technicalities of the law and far better prepared for the exam than I.

I suggest that your expectations of lawyers be revised.

[snagglepuss]

17. In less than one minute I obtained the legal requirements to have

a marriage performed in Greece by googling which is hardly requires esoteric knowledge. If you or any lawyer can't imagine the possibility that another country might have laws on their books pertaining to marriage of foreign nationals within their borders something is seriously lacking. It is either profoundly arrogant or profoundly dense to not research something so basic before traveling abroad.

[Coyote_Bandit]

18. And

everybody knows that all the information available on the internet is absolutely reliable and accurate and continually updated and annotated in such a manner that a professional could further research any technicalities. Really. Come on. Using internet sources for legal guidance can result in some very unpleasant surprises.

[snagglepuss]

19. That ifo is from the American Embassy in Greece. Pretty accurate

I'd say. And what a great starting point. If someone felt that such basic information was questionable gee they could call the Greek embassy. Ooops perhaps the notion of a follow up call is beyond what could be reasonably expected from lawyers to come up with on their own.

[Coyote_Bandit]

20. And

the IRS provides detailed information on their government website. And they have a tax payer support telephone line. Of course, they also tell folks not to rely on the information they provide in the preparation of their tax return.

Are you suggesting that one federal government entity is more reliable than another? Perhaps one has higher and better motives than the other?

Yeah. Right.

[snagglepuss]

21. Well you can certainly argue a weak position into the ground.

If you're soooo distrustful US govt websites, you can contact the Greek Emabassy. The bottomline is that lawyers' prime responsibilty is to dot the i's and cross the t's, to do that lawyers got to be aware that marriage is a legal contract and that different countries have different legal requirements. For lawyers to waltz over to another country to get married and not do any research speaks volumes about their competency as lawyers.

[Coyote_Bandit]

22. .

:banghead:

You find legal conclusions based on Google searches and phone calls acceptable. Yet you completely ignore the fact that folks lose their objectivity when it comes to their own matters. Would you expect a dentist to fill his own tooth? Better to hire a professional. But you knew that.

Ahhhhhh, the follies and inconsistencies of requiring other folks to flawlessly achieve expected outcomes that have absolutely no direct impact on you while simultaneouly permitting them to use substandard and questionable resources.

:banghead:

[snagglepuss]

23. As they say spare me. It is truly absurd to argue that governments

whether Greek or American govts are going to misrepresent marriage requirements on their respective web sites. We are not talking about a dentist filling his own tooth. We are talking about two highly educated people not taking making any attempt to research something so basic. I'd have the same opinion of two eighteen years old running off to Europe to get married. To assume that other countries don't have their on own laws is either arrogent or just dumb.

[Coyote_Bandit]

24. You certainly are hung up

on the fact that another country just might have different laws.

I have not disputed that. Quite the opposite actually. I detailed the difficulties of an acquaintance, a French citizen, who was unable to have a church wedding ceremony in Paris because of a technicality regarding the manner in which the French statutes are interpreted and applied. Technically he complied with all the requirements of the French statutes. It was the application of those statutes that was the problem. That is a problem one would not necessarily anticipate based on a reading of a statute. It is a matter that can be either interpretative or procedural or some combination of the two.

I have pointed out that sometimes there are problems discovering and understanding the technicalities of foreign legal requirements. Attorneys generally contract foreign counsel to advise them regarding foreign law. I have pointed out that folks often lose their objectivity when it comes to their own matters. You condemn TB Guy for being less than perfect in his own affairs and yet you find legal conclusions based on a Google search and a phone call acceptable.

You refuse to recognize the existence of interpretative and procedural issues and challenges regarding foreign laws. That refusal is tantamount to suggesting that the color blue is universally agreed to have a single recognized tint, tone and shade. Meanwhile, some folks understand blue to mean something closer to navy while others understand it to refer to the color of a clear afternoon sky. Procedurally, tint, tones and shades of blue are derived and mixed differently depending on whether an artist is using additive or subtractive color theory. Not everyone agrees that the primary colors are red, yellow and blue. In the absence of an interpretative context, “blue” is pretty much meaningless. Same is true of words in statutes.

Remind me again that other countries have their own legal requirements that I can easily identify via Google search and confirm through a phone call to the local embassy.

[snagglepuss]

25. Foreign governments have detailed information on each of their

official websites advising foreigners about marriages performed on their soil. Few if any governments on earth want to throw obscure technicalities in the path tourists wishing to have a dream wedding. Check out the Official website of the French Government Tourist Office. Condemn is a hard word, my initial point is simply that this lack of foresight doesn't speak well of his capacity as a lawyer.

[Coyote_Bandit]

26. Wow

As I expected, yet another reminder to Google in order to determine applicable law.

Is it so difficult to acknowledge that statutory language does not necessarily convey all the interpretative and procedural information one might need to know to comply with the law?

Perhaps you will find this Wikipedia article regarding statutory interpretation informative:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_interpretation

Among its observations:

"...in most cases, there is some ambiguity or vagueness in the words of the statute that must be resolved..." In other words, blue does not always refer to navy.

"Legislation may contain uncertainties for a variety of reasons: Words are imperfect symbols to communicate intent. They are ambiguous and change in meaning over time. Unforeseen situations are inevitable, and new technologies and cultures make application of existing laws difficult. Uncertainties may be added to the statute in the course of enactment, such as the need for compromise or catering to special interest groups." Again, blue does not always refer to navy.

"...jurisdictions may presume that either federal or local government authority prevails in the absence of a defined rule..." Damn. There might be some conflict between multiple agencies and levels of government with respect to the same legal issue. Does Google detail the conflicts of law and tell you who prevails?

"A statute shall not be interpreted so as to be inconsistent with other statutes." Oooops. Looks like it might be necessary to know some other law besides just that little paragraph quoted by the Embassy detailing where to get the marriage certificate stamped and how much it costs.

"Deference canons instruct the court to defer to the interpretation of another institution, such as an administrative agency or Congress." There may be a binding interpretation of the statute somewhere? What? Sorry. That trumps whatever you think the word blue means. You don't get to determine the RGB/CMY values.

You may continue entertain whatever flights of fancy you desire. It is naive to think you can learn the law by googling or talking to an embassy customer service rep on the phone. You might know what the statute says. That doesn't mean you have the slightest clue as to how the requirements are procedurally applied or administratively and judicially interpreted.

You don't need to remind me to Google again. Really.

[snagglepuss]

28. Wow. Is it so difficult for you to understand that all governments

have a vested interest in promoting tourism especially for something as lucrative as weddings? It is in the interest of every government on earth that promotes tourism to make legal requirements with regard to weddings clear a wedding bell. This is not about inheritance law, corporate law or criminal law which would require legal counsel this is about weddings. It is absurd for you to argue that any government would want to alienate foreigners by producing at the last minute some obscure law that would prevent a marriage from going forward.

[Coyote_Bandit]

29. Wanting to earn a tourist dollar

has nothing to do with insuring or caring whether or not a legal wedding ceremony is performed. Tourist comes, spends money, has a nice time, thinks he gets married, goes home. After the tourist is gone who in the host country gives a damn whether there is a valid marriage? At that point they have the money, the tourist is gone and there are very few sanctions that can be taken against the host country. Who gets screwed? The naive well intentioned but uninformed little tourist - or maybe the surviving spouse who suddenly learns there was no legal marriage.

Sorry. The fact that somebody else is interested in earning a buck doesn't mean they are going to protect my interests. Used car salesmen and preachers should be proof of that.

[valerief]

9. Must be Regent U graduates. nt

[Renew Deal]

4. You need to spend at least 7 days in Greece before you can get married

So there's no way unless he was there a week.

[LSparkle]

8. This is familiar for anyone who's investigated getting married in Europe

Friends of mine who originally wanted to do that had to have a civil ceremony here so that they could be legally married, and then had a ceremonial "wedding" in France.

[janetblond]

16. I bet he didn't get married

and i bet that marriage pic they showed on TV was BOGUS. Just like his whole story his bogus.
how come his so called "fiance" didn't catch TB, assuming they were exchanging bodily fluids of SOME sort .. even just SPIT.
What about his parents? Surely he ATE at their house, talked to them etc.
What about his co-workers? How did THEY slide thru the cracks?
Yet we're looking for 500 obscure people on 4 airplanes?
This story doesn't add up.
Makes me wonder what kind of PANDEMIC pandemonium bush, cheney and rove are concocting.
Is the CDC in on this?
Why isn't anythone THINKING about this?

[ecstatic]

30. exactly. too many weird holes in that story nt