Michael Moore: YOUTH Stayed Home In 2010 Because Of OBAMA's ‘B.S.’

[Segami]

Run time: 03:15 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT0V9V70urc   Posted on YouTube: November 01, 2011 By YouTube Member: ForaTv Views on YouTube: 1512   Posted on DU: November 02, 2011 By DU Member: Segami Views on DU: 20367

 
:smoke:


RawStory:


Michael Moore: Youth stayed home in 2010 because of Obama’s ‘B.S.’


Liberal filmmaker Michael Moore said Tuesday that young voters did not turn out for 2010 elections because “they don’t suffer fools” and “because they don’t take bullshit.”


“You promise them something, you’d better do it, or they’re going to call you on it” he said during a speech at the Sixth and I Historic Synagogue. “They don’t like hypocrites. They don’t like somebody who doesn’t follow through.”


“We need young people and their rebellion and their ability not to go along with B.S.,” Moore continued. “And they weren’t going to go along with President Obama’s B.S. He let them down, they stayed home. He wants to keep letting them down for the next year? They’ll stay home.”


Moore said Obama’s problem was not liberals like himself, who would still vote for Obama. The problem was that liberals wouldn’t be able to convince others to turn out for the 2012 elections because Obama did not clean up George W. Bush’s mess.



http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/01/michael-moore-youth-stayed-home-in-2010-because-of-obamas-b-s/


.

[Donnachaidh]

1. k&r n/t.

[liberalmike27]

99. Personally I think the Corporate

Decision for Citizen's United had far more to do with it than liberals staying home. Truth is, that's the MSM's dialogue on the subject. Plus, mid-terms tend to be missed more often by rookie voters in general, and the black vote, many of them new, didn't show up like they did when Obama was on the ticket.

While maybe a few stayed home, I just think it another media fabrication.

That said, here we are. For whatever reason, a lot of people didn't vote during 2010, that did vote in 2008. This left us with 53 Senators instead of 59, and the House is now tyrannical Republicans, instead of democratic, and for possibly 2 more years after this election, we're going to have filibustering republicans in the Senate, and likely a republican house. By 2014, we may be able to get back the gains we lost.

Here's the thing--while the media was trying to anger liberals, and make them not vote, in truth we needed to move MORE in the direction of the left, to make the BS democrats like Baucus become more irrelevant. We need to move so far to the left that a con-servative republican or democrat can't get elected as dog-catcher.

[Donnachaidh]

119. I heartily agree we need to move to the left - but I -don't- see this president doing it.

Once burned, twice shy.

Lots of people stayed home -because- of his constant capitulation with the pukes. WHY vote when you know what is said on the campaign trail will be ignored in the office?

And with OWS now up and central, a lot more people are going to be asking the same questions. Both parties better be prepared for a shitstorm, because people are paying attention and looking -beyond- the speechifying, and watching the actions of ALL politicos.

Obama didn't like the *shellacking* (his terminology) in '10 - the bigger question is -- Did HE *learn* anything from it?

Personally, I don't think so. But YMMV. :shrug:

[MissDeeds]

180. Agree completely n/t

[dotymed]

154. Unfortunately,., as we all see/saw..lol.., it wasn't "moving to the left.

It/they were staying with the money. Yes, we were lied to so we didn't (young and old) turn out to vote in the mid-terms. It sure as hell was not a message for more compromise. Any excuse will do it seems. We want less/no compromise on our core values/principals. We wanted what candidate Obama promised not more of the same, like we ended up getting.

[gateley]

158. AmenAmenAmenAmenAmen.

Regardless of why it happened, we need to turn the current situation around so it doesn't become worse.

ESPECIALLY with so many States making it impossible for so many of "us" to vote!

[Bluenorthwest]

185. How do you then explain the entire West Coast where Democrats

won and turn out was high? CA had ultra cash being spent by losers Whitman and Fiorino, to no avail, Jerry Brown strolled casually to victory. Here in Oregon we had the highest midterm turnout since the 80's, we also elected a Democratic Governor, and in the 4th DeFazio defeated a seriously insane Republican who had piles of out of state cash specifically given to him to defeat DeFazio.
We have the same news media, which you call 'the media', as the States that did not turn out, that did not elect Democrats. Fun to sputter about 'the media' but it is not accurate, and it seems to paint some states as simpletons, while others see through the scam. Are we out west just so smart that we did not fall for what the other states fell for?
I think we had candidates, the rest had DINOS.

[reggie the dog]

191. marijuana legalization on the ballot in CA

[Bluenorthwest]

213. Reggie, CA is not the entire West Coast....

An object on their ballot does not effect turnout in Oregon nor in Washington. Oregon had record breaking turnout. CA's issues did not cause Oregon's turnout. So clearly there is more to this than that one item on the ballot in one State....

[reggie the dog]

234. it is about half of the west coast not counting alaska

in miles anyways and i think in population too. were there any ballot iniciatives at the state levels in oregon or washington that got people to vote or was it interest in federal elections in your opinion.

[CrispyQ]

242. "...we had candidates, the rest had DINOS."

That's the answer! Dems will get out the vote when real dems are running.

Voting for the "lesser of two evils" has made our party go further & further to the right. They are so sure of our votes they don't care about betraying our dem values. Well, I'm not voting for republicans anymore - even if they have a D behind their name.

There's really only one party - the money party - & The People are not invited.

Love DeFazio!

[tavalon]

232. Find me a liberal. I'll vote for him or her

Jay Inslee has my vote. Alan Grayson. Elizabeth Warren. Unfortunately, of those three, I can only vote for one. But I can monetarily support the others.

In the meantime, the important dialogue is on the streets, not in DC.

[NOLALady]

2. They stayed home.

Well good for them, as long as they are happy with the results.

[Kahuna]

15. Exactly. Better for them to freeze their butts off in Zuccoti Park because

they chose to stay home.

[truedelphi]

54. What is the point you are making?

It is not the Republicans who choose to have Tim Geithner as the Head Of US Treasury.

And where was Mr Obama when Bernanke offered up some 14 trillions of dollars of loans to the big Banking and Financial Firms - which now claim they paid these "loans" back, but they did so by using their booklets of paper investments, most of which are worth little more than toilet paper. Our government secretly gives them US dollars, and they pay us back with worthless derivatives.

Bill Moyers' article over at Huffington about the "Occupy" movement tells us what we need to know - that one Barack Obama has received from the Financial firms more than any other human alive. This explains why our nation is in trouble - both parties are ruled by the corrupting influence of the Banking crowd.

[Vanje]

55. yes

[Scuba]

80. +1

[Enthusiast]

93. PLUS ONE!

You are exactly correct.

[Lorien]

111. Amen. nt

[Syntheto]

117. Hear, hear...

[emilyg]

122. Sing it loud.

[Lionessa]

136. Or extend the military industrial complex instead of job stimulus.

Sure the Republicans would've loved to do so, but they didn't Obama did and still is, and worse with killing Americans without trial, not even a trial in absentia, though they had time to have that trial.

Not just his appointments, which were such a disappointment and such a warning, but also his decisions as CiC have been not worthy of the Peace Prize he accepted, nor the respect of many liberals of all ages.

[NorthCarolina]

147. Spot on

:applause: :applause:

[nashville_brook]

181. +1

[MissDeeds]

182. Bingo

How can he be one of us when he's one of them?

[walerosco]

190. Couldn't agree more with your post

Obama dropped the ball in the area that required zero republican support. His drug policies, control of US troops, prosecution of war crimes, civil liberties are areas where he could have enacted his change for the better, instead he continued or worsened the situation.

Most of his successes are in the war on terrorism which I believe most Americans want to see ended. Fence sitters need for that "a republican would do worse" to actually get em to join our side.

[redqueen]

214. Thank you. This is the only reason we got the New Deal...

losing votes to the People's Party caused the Dems to move left.

[truedelphi]

263. Good information to have. Thanks. n/t

[L0oniX]

245. +99%

[valerief]

58. I think the kids freezing off their asses DID vote. nt

[Texano78704]

257. Made a choice, yes

One poll indicates that 55% did not vote in 2010.

http://theimmoralminority.blogspot.com/2011/10/meet-occupy-wall-street-protestors.html

[JDPriestly]

76. The message from Zuccoti Park and all the other Occupy movements

is that Obama has let them down and all that is left to them is to display their homelessness and joblessness as a badge of courage in the battle for progress.

Obama has not lived up to his promises, not at all.

And if he signs any, I repeat, any bill that cuts Medicare further (already cut in the health insurance reform bill) or Social Security, he will also lose that small percentage of older people who supported him. He won't lose voters to the Republicans. He will lose them to their couches. They will just stay home.

It's just the fact.

True, Congress has not cooperated with him. But when there was a Democratic majority in Congress, he couldn't get the conservative Dems to cooperate on those parts of his promises that were decently libers. Ineffective so far, I'm afraid.

I like him as a person, but he hasn't been up to the job so far.

I'm hoping that he can still wise up and fire people like Timothy Geithner who really hold him back.

[tcaudilllg]

132. If Obama loses the election, Obama will lose more than the Whitehouse...

he will lose America's stability.

[leftyohiolib]

139. if progessive can take congress then we wont need the presidency excpt for scotus

[quakerboy]

160. thats a big ol "except"

really big, as it were.

Also except for Executive orders, which RW are more than willing to abuse. And which have power, in the absence of a responsible judiciary branch.

[knixphan]

162. That really is a BIG 'except'. agreed.

[tomp]

175. how quaint, you think america is stable.

the entire world is unstable.

[reggie the dog]

197. the country is already falling apart

havent you noticed the tent cities, the fact that there are less and less jobs, havent you seen the poor become even more poor and the working class become poor???? look at the state of our infrastucture in the usa, the usa is already fucked, that is why i havent moved back

[russspeakeasy]

150. Very well put JD.

My feelings exactly..

[Fantastic Anarchist]

247. I wish I could rec your post. Spot on!

[Remember Me]

134. Like, what -- voting in 2010 would've made Obama do right?

He didn't do right BEFORE that, when he had the entire Congress, what would've made him do better after?

Specious.

[bowens43]

174. what a ridiculous remark.

I guess holding people accountable for their actions or in-actions isn't something you agree with.

[reggie the dog]

192. they are in the park

because they understand that it does not matter if there is a d or a r before the presidents name because the presidents work for big money.

[AmericaIsGreat]

25. Maybe the results will mobilize Obama

Are people supposed to keep voting for people who promise them shit but then do none of it and, in some cases, almost the opposite?

[defendandprotect]

37. Are you kidding? Minutes after 2010, Obama announced he'd COMPROMISE more with GOP -- !!

[theaocp]

87. I have to bring back my gag reflex

b/c you sound like a plant, but apologies if I'm wrong. He didn't promise "shit". He promised much and delivered little. Cheers.

[DeSwiss]

35. With that kind of dismissiveness.....

...that ought to bring 'em back, eh?

[kenfrequed]

36. Great attitude you got there.

I mean, why bother keeping promises and appealing to voters when you can just scorn them.

[defendandprotect]

40. Don't think Michael intends to make us HATE our 18-29 year olds ... what we have to understand ....

is that these youth are being shown that they have NO FUTURE --

Some of us at least still have the prospect of recusing some of our future --

We have to understand that these kids have had to wait sometimes a year to get

a job out of college -- have been repeatedly been laid off -- and are now in their

30's, often unable to get married and start families, and many aren't even invested

in pension plans!

That's the message that this evil and lesser evil are shooting to them and it's real!!

Just ask the parents of these 18-29 year olds!!


These youth are showing the wisdom that we should be showing -- if you vote for BS what

you're going to get is more of it!!

[jwirr]

59. Oh, I get what both you and MM are saying. I even get why the

youth stayed home - I am disappointed in him to. What I do not get is why they think cutting off your nose to spite your face is a good idea. I was around during the last depression - just a baby but lived the results through my parents and grandparents. I watched the safety net being built. There are things we need to protect from further destruction.

I got this bs from my grandson who says he is for R. Paul - and then he tells me that he is for freedom and I should be more worried about freedom than the safety net which our entire family relies on in one way or another. Some of us would die without Medicare and Medicaid. When I said that he walked out on me. Reality hurts.

I am worried about our freedom AND our safety net. You cannot separate them in this battle we are in. Yes, Obama is to blame because he has never been straight with us. But do you really think that our asshole rethugs in congress are straight with us or at all interested in either freedom or a safety net? Do any of those who stayed home think we are better off with these obstructionists than we would have been with a Democratic congress? At least we would have been able to fight them on what they were doing. The rethugs do not care what we say or do. They ignore us.

I have been listening to what the occupy groups are talking about making changes in our system. I agree but we need to preserve the parts we want to keep and we will not be able to do that by electing rethugs who outright say they are going to end them and who are systematically dismantling the voting system right before our eyes.

No vote is a vote for the opposition.

[defendandprotect]

72. They're saying that voting for BS will only get you more BS .....

and what you're saying is ignore the reality of what Obama has actually done *

and vote for it anyway?

Two opposing theories there if you will notice them ...

#1 -- that doing the same thing over and again -- like voting for the "lesser evil" -- will

bring change. Has it ever?

while you are suggesting that they are practicing

#2 -- cutting of your nose to spite your face --


Rather I think #1 is the winning philosophy and I'm not at all sure that youth are practicing

the second idea -- rather, I think they understand that over decades voting for the "lesser

evil" has only moved the party and the Congress further to the right. Can we deny that?

Honestly -- can we deny that?


Meanwhile, the party is now moved so far to the right that it is under the control now of

the Third Way -- Jonathan Cowan, President -- who appeared on C-span two weeks ago to make clear

that the Third Way stance/policy is "that the base of the party is to be ignored" -- !!!

And, that "populism/populist discussion/debate is the equivalent of Karl Rove propaganda of

extremism" -- !!


In other words, the New Deal and FDR and safety nets are now Karl Rove extremism!!!



Is this really what you're going to give your money to and what you're going to vote for?


If you need any further info on what I'm say, I'll be glad to give you more info on it.



Re your grandson, youth have been PURPOSEFULLY heavily burdened with Social Security FICA

payments as ALL middle class and poor have been -- the main purpose was to create a bigger

slush fund for the elites, but it also served the purpose of making many question Social

Security. It's kind of what they did with the Post Office in making them pay for 75 years

of pensions in a ten year window!! The burden of Social Security was moved onto the shoulders

of poor and middle class to pay for the alleged "baby boomer" shortages -- and RATHER than

lifting the cap on FICA earnings ceiling.

Needless to say, RW propaganda does work -- especially when Democrats remain SILENT and are

totally unresponsive to it!

Certainly, there is much to be discussed with your grandson -- like 50 and more years of RW

political violence to overturn liberalism and New Deal -- in fact they were plotting RW violence

against FDR -- and these are the same people who gave us Hitler and Nazis. Indeed, these same

families and corporations who brought these coups now control our press.


You also seem to have the impression that the huge liberal voting bloc is going to vote for the

RW -- that's all fear-based and of course no liberal is going to vote for the RW.

We are ALL worried about our freedom and our safety nets -- but notice that it was BILL CLINTON

WHO KNOCKED OUT A GOOD PART OF THEM AND IT IS OBAMA WHO GAVE US THE CAT FOOD COMMISSION AND WHO

PUT SOCIAL SECURITY AND MEDICARE 'ON THE TABLE' -- !!

OBAMA ALSO HAS PERMITTED THE COLA'S TO BE ELIMINATED -- WHICH AFTER BUSH SHOULD HAVE BEEN

VERY HIGH BECAUSE AFTER BUSH ABOUT EVERY $1 ANYONE HAD WAS WORTH ABOUT 50 CENTS!

Also note that Clinton ended 60 years of Welfare Guarantees with a NOD FROM GORE!!


I can only point out to you that you are blocking a lot of the reality about Dems which you

don't want to see. In 1978, which Wm. Greider tells us clearly in his book, "Who will tell the

people?" -- the Democrats who were in full power: i.e., president, Senate, House -- COLLUDED

with the GOP to "break the tax code for the benefit of the rich."

That's back in 1978 -- !!


I'd also point out to you something else you seem to want to ignore --

Obama had a MANDATE -- a huge popular vote -- and all he did with it was throw it away.

And then proceded to resurrect the GOP from the ashes with BS about compromise and bipartisanship!

Bipartisanship is just another way of saying one party rule Howard Zinn


Over and again we were told that our president, our Senate and our House were IMPOTENT vs

Libermann -- the Superman who controlled everything!!


Currently, with the GOP controlling ONLY the House -- we are told over and again that they are

OMNIPOTENT and that Obama is helpless against them!! :rofl:


Okay -- if that's the way it really is, then I think what we should aim for is simply controlling

the HOUSE the next time around -- obviously that's all we need??????????????????


If you're read what I'm saying here, there are blind spots, but in continuing to think that

the Dem Party -- after 20 years of RW Koch Bros. funding of the DLC control over the party

and now moving to the even further RW Third Way control over the party -- is going to bring the

freedom and safety net preservation you want doesn't make any sense.



I have been listening to what the occupy groups are talking about making changes in our system. I agree but we need to preserve the parts we want to keep and we will not be able to do that by electing rethugs who outright say they are going to end them and who are systematically dismantling the voting system right before our eyes.

No vote is a vote for the opposition.


This is a liberal nation -- that's why the RW has to use political violence -- and it's why they

have to control all media. We have a huge liberal voting bloc which must come together to adopt

other solutions to "lesser evil" and "evil" voting --


We need to draft a challenger to Obama for 2012 --

And, if you're watched the OWS can hardly imagine where you've gotten the idea that they're not

trying to preserve safety nets!

Again -- it is fear-based thinking which suggests that we have to keep voting for the "lesser

evil" and which ignores where that has taken us!

And fear-based thinking which suggests that those standing up against Obama's corporate agenda

want to vote for the RW!!

We need a liberal -- but very difficult to stand up against all of Obama's corporate backing!!

That corporate $$ has the power not only to defeat a dem liberal challenger -- but to

humiliate that challenger as we saw with Howard Dean!



OWS is the 99% -- and certainly they all realize as well as you do and I do that New Deal and

safety nets must be preserved.

Where we differ is that you still believe in Obama -- and Democrats -- despite the many

betrayals -- !!

[jwirr]

77. I am not blocking anything. I am actually getting most of my family

to get ready for a total crash. And I do not think we can do much to stop it from coming. I have read Paul Hawkin's books, Elizabeth Warren's books, David Koren's books, Chalmers Johnson's books, James Kunstler's books and many more so I am not naive regarding how far we have come from what we were in 1960. I also know that we cannot expect the idiots that run the party today to do a damn thing about it because they, like the rethugs, think their money is going to save them.

The one question I have for you is what is your plan for saving the safety net? And it cannot be a plan that happens sometime after the protesters manage to take over the government because that is no better than the rethug health plan "Don't get sick." Many of us are already sick. Reality is that if we hand the government over to the rethugs the programs we need to live will be gone as fast as they can get them out of the way.

I voted the first time in 1960 and one of my biggest gripes is protesting by staying home or voting 3rd party when you know they cannot win. I do not remember a single election where people did it that it changed anything. Even when I did it against Hubert Humphrey because of the Chicago riots. Look what I got for that.

[defendandprotect]

101. Whatever is coming has been engineered by corporate/elites ... with the help of elected officials!!

That seems to be the part that you are unwilling to acknowledge --

those elected officials are also Democrats -- like Obama!

There is nothing but game playing going on -- "good cop/bad cop" -- and too many who

believe it! But what it serves to do isn't being hidden from you -- it only serves to

move the party and Congress and all the game playing further to the right.


Of course we elected Obama -- but we didn't vote for a Koch Bros. DLC/Rahm Emmanuel --

nor did we vote for the Wall Street Team Obama put in place, nor RW control over FED and

other financial organs.


The will of the people is being ignored -- and that's not going to stop because you vote

for the same people doing just that!



The one question I have for you is what is your plan for saving the safety net?

My plan is to vote my conscience -- and not for any lesser evil or any evil at all.

My plan is to vote for principles -- especially the principles of the pre-Koch Bros/DLC

Dem Party of more than 20 years ago -- based on the New Deal which provided the greatest

stimulus to the economy ever seen and the closest thing to economic democracy we've ever

seen!


Actually, considering Nixon's "October Surprise" and the fact that voting computers were

already with us in the South by late 1960's, I'd suggest that we could question every

election back to Nixon/Humphrey!


There has been no movement by voters en masse to actually vote Third Party -- what we've

seen in the past has been limited protest by a few.


HOWEVER, what we need is a challenger to Obama from the left in 2012 -- !!

I'd prefer Sen. Bernie Sanders if he could run on a Dem ticket -- he's a better Democrat than

most of our Dems -- !!

If not, I'd take Alan Grayson -- but again the huge threat of the corporate $$$ backing Obama

bodes ill for any real liberal challenger to Obama -- as it bodes ill for all of us!!



* I forgot to include this last time round in my post --

What I'm suggesting you are blocking is the reality of what Obama has done -- and thinking that

"next time will be different" -- !! :rofl:


Here's Rahm "crowing" about all Obama has done for business and why business should be "grateful"

to him --- !!


In a Thursday interview, White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel argued that rather than recoiling against Obama, rejection of calls from some quarters to nationalize banks during the financial meltdown; the rescue of the automobile industry; the fact that the overhaul of health care preserved the private delivery system; the fact that billions in the stimulus package benefited business with lucrative new contracts, and that financial regulation reform will take away the uncertainty that existed with a broken, pre-crash regulatory apparatus.

the fact that the overhaul of health care preserved the private delivery system;

If all of that doesn't make you sick to your stomach, nothing will --

But perhaps it will break the illusion you're under that Obama has ever been doing anything

but working for the welfare of corporate/elites?








http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=B2F85DDF-18FE-70B2-A835FE1E7FA8D74C

[jwirr]

120. What makes you think I am not sick to my stomach with the shit I

see happening today. I have actually voted in real elections before 1968. Yes, I would like to see Bernie or Alan run but I do not see them stepping up - in fact I think both have already said no. All I am saying is that we are not going to get any change ever if we elect the rethugs. Look at what they are doing to election laws already and they are just in some states. We do not have a chance in hell if they take it back. And before you tell me we do not have any with the democrats either - I agree. I told you I am ready for a total crash.

[defendandprotect]

165. Well, first, let me thank you for your honesty ....

and, granted, neither one of us can say infallibly what could happen --

I certainly admit that.

We already have more than 25 million unemployed or underemployed ---

66 million impoverished --

46 million on food stamps --

50 million suffering without health care --

and I think both of us very much have that on our minds -- not wanting to see it get

any worse.



Just recently on C-span, I happened to catch Jonathan Cowan, President, Third Way which

now controls the Democratic Party --

and he was making clear where the Democratic Party is going --

i.e., their stance/policy is that "the base of the party is to be ignored" --

and that "populism/populist discussion and debate is the equivalent of Karl Rove propaganda

of extremism" --

Seems to be pretty clear what we can expect from Obama and Third Way in future --


If you want any more info on Third Way -- let me know!

[reggie the dog]

210. by socializing the losses the usa has become a socialist country

in which the social welfare state is in place to help the wealthy elite. fucking ass backwards socialism, we pay for the infrastructure, electric lines, roads, etc. then the electricity is privitized (on lines we paid to put in in many states) so that in order to make money selling electricity you dont have to spend on the actual delivery lines, then if you become too big to fail you know you can do whatever you want, scam money, give big time contracts to friends and others who do the same for you, run the company into the ground and the people pay your losses. fucking socialism for the wealthy. and then the same wealthy talk as if socialism is a bad word.

[JDPriestly]

81. Excellent post! Defend and Protect.

Obama campaigned on the idea that the cap should be lifted up to $250,000 for individual taxpayers and to a different amount for couples with two working spouses.

He has not done that. Instead, he hired, of all people, Pete Peterson's protege, Timothy Geithner to guard our Social Security Trust Fund, never mentioned raising the cap and has placed people who hate Social Security and Medicare in positions in which they can destroy those programs.

And he has advocated for and obtained passage of additional trade agreements at a time when we have seen that the trade that we do with foreign countries has left us with a huge trade imbalance, outsourcing, importing shoddy goods (especially from still-Communist China -- no revolution that I know of) and no-end-in-sight unemployment.

Sure, a lot of this was inherited from Bush. But Obama has not really tried or even talked about changing the direction of the country.

CHANGE -- remember that long forgotten word. Obama has made a cruel joke of the idea of change. His change has proved to be change for the status quo. All that has changed is the vocabulary and even that hasn't changed much.

When do we get real hope, hope that is just and genuine?

[defendandprotect]

166. K/R for info in your post ---

I didn't know that he had campaigned on increasing the Social Security FICA cap!!



:hi:

[JDPriestly]

169. He argued for it in the debates with other Democratic candidates.

[bvar22]

Here is the VIDEO.

Run time: 03:15 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT0V9V70urc   Posted on YouTube: November 01, 2011 By YouTube Member: ForaTv Views on YouTube: 1512   Posted on DU: November 03, 2011 By DU Member: bvar22 Views on DU: 20367

 
On Edit: Please ignore the MM Video ^above^.
It is the same one posted in the OP,
and I can't edit it out of my response.

Instead,
click on the link below to hear Obama's & Hillary's plan for the Payroll Tax.
The video below is a Pro-Obama Campaign Video from 2008.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7pw0cFRTLE




You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their promises.
Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[CrispyQ]

262. Change...

[ArcticFox]

264. When do we get real hope?

I would say only after the present system is dismantled.

I think Obama may be helping that along, by demonstrating in no uncertain terms that we will never get the change we need through the political system as it is.

[reggie the dog]

206. here in Frace the socialists control the senate

the right wing has the presidence and the other half of our legislature (the deputies) yet our senate keeps trying to propose good socialist laws, like making school obligatory from age 3, or lowering the retirement back to 60. they know the laws will never make it past the right wing deputies yet they still propose them so they can say they are fighting the good fight. and the right wing now knows that all the laws it wants to passed will be blocked by endless amendments from the senate.....unless they give concessions to the socialists....

[ArcticFox]

258. +1

[girl gone mad]

109. If you have a good math background, it's fairly obvious why they would make that choice.

This is simple decision theory.

When faced with a number of actions, each of which could give rise to more than one possible outcome with different probabilities, the rational procedure is to identify all possible outcomes, determine their values (positive or negative) and the probabilities that will result from each course of action, and multiply the two to give an expected value. The action to be chosen should be the one that gives rise to the highest total expected value.

"The only winning move is not to play."

[bvar22]

239. They are NOT "cutting off their noses".

The youth did their part in 2006 and 2008.

They gave the Democratic Party:

*The White House

*BIG Majorities in the House

*A filibuster-proof majority in the Senate

*A dead Republican Party

A HUGE MANDATE for CHANGE,
and an ARMY standing in the Streets.

Instead of "CHANGE", they got a long series of lame, pathetic excuses.


They DID their part,
and their noses were cut off BY the people they elected.

They aren't "cutting off their noses".
They ARE STANDING UP in unity and delivering a strong message
to the agents of the 1% who infest the leadership of BOTH Parties.
I support them 100%.


You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Fantastic Anarchist]

249. Fucking amen! n/t

[tinkerbell41]

98. I have a 21 yr old

I am 45. I pushed her since 1st grade to go to college get a degree have a better life than myself. I was forced to go into the trades to support my family, wasn't an easy life but a pretty good guarantee that i would be able to raise her without any major bumps. It's ALL gone now! I watched a 21yr career vanish! I have been to Occupy protests in my town, because yes, I am affected also. The future I believed I was guaranteeing myself and her doesn't exist. we haven't even talked about job prospects or what she will do upon graduation in June. I BELIEVED all the way up until 2010. No longer. I stand with Micheal on this. I worked my tail off knocking on doors, phone calls, risked alienation of my family and boss by supporting this administration.I believed I am 45 and I was WRONG. And I don't have the heart to tell her.

[defendandprotect]

103. We have all seen this with our children --- they have NO futures -- !!!

And that's a side to this story which had to be pointed out --

Thank you!



:hi:

[reggie the dog]

217. like the sex pistols sang in the late 70s

no future for you no future for me

[reggie the dog]

216. tell her to make and keep pot connections in college,

she should start dealing pot now, you can grow it for her if you are looking for work it pays damn well.

you grow, she sells,

she builds up clients and will not rat you out if busted while you take the lower risk of getting caught growing so you need to keep bail money on had that you can lose if she jumps.

(if there is any way to get a 2nd nationality then do it, i have french and us nationality and there is no extradition policy, even if facing trial the usa does not know i have a french passport and vice versa, so i can walk across the border somewhere and pop up in canada and then fly to france which has no extradition policy with the usa, double nationality is great for doing crime)

if she is any good she will have many clients, after graduation she should keep the best clients, the big time buyers that she trusts (especially cousins or sorrority sisters)

i have a friend who has done this and made 60 000 one year when he was unemployed (he is an office worker) and only made 40 000 this year dealing because he has a new job (gotta look good for the tax man)

if your daughter can make say 50 000 selling weed (profit) buying it at the standard 3000 a pound and re selling it you and her could both make 50 000 a year, you as the grower her as the dealer, for making payments like mortgage and that if you dont get enough in unemployment to cover the expenses then you need to make a dummy company with your daughter. a company that in your state you dont need a license for. think of an arts and crafts thing you could really do and then just exaggerate your profits. hell if you want to go into business use the drug money to get the jump up in business then launder your drug profits through your own company.

keep cash stashed at multiple secure spots, hell buried like a treasure in some forest somewhere where they are not gonna do construction or where a flood or mudslide wont take it away, some stashed at home, stashed with mom and dad, stashed buried in the garden for money to leave town if you get busted and it looks like you will do jail time, like i said the 2nd nationality comes in handy here.


i have seen this strategy work first hand with people having only one nationality and people having 2 but remember to see if there is an extradition policy between the 2 countries involving the crime to know if there are benefits.

[tinkerbell41]

225. I'm not the cool parent.

Not to say I haven't thought about this but in no way shape or form would I involve her, nor would she ever know about it. I would have to be in a pretty tough spot to take that leap, because as we all know you would have to be willing to risk everything home, family, friends.

[reggie the dog]

230. you are spot on about the risks

but you never know, your kid may be smoking or selling already and hiding it from you ;) plus this has nothing to do about being cool, it is just a business idea that still actually works in our current economy. it is crime but just about as victimless as you can come by. i too have considered doing this but prefer to watch other people doing it as i am afraid of the risk but like getting free smoke for helping harvest..... but it is something that i have seen keep more than one family above water.

[LBJDemocrat]

88. When Obama had a mandate, and the Democrats controlled both houses

Obama wouldn't even bother to advocate a public health insurance option. Instead, he ruled it out before it was even discussed.

Then, before the new Congress was sworn in, he extended the Bush tax cuts.

Foreign policy aside, Obama's presidency has demonstrated the laughable state of our democracy.

[libinnyandia]

95. The Senate

To say the democrats controlled the Senate would be true in a perfect world but in this world someone said after the Scott Brown victory: the Republicans, with 41 votes now controlled the Senate. The senate is so dysfunctional that it is very difficult to pass anything.

[defendandprotect]

105. Lieberman/Superman/Omnipotent is as trite as the chess game -- bury it!!

Can you imagine Bush -- having the presidency, a real mandate -- control of the House

and Senate and being stopped because of a Dem "Liberman" -- :rofl:

What you're showing is a reluctance to admit what's really going on ---


Actually, if you've really been watching what's going on, evidently the GOP -- which ONLY

has control of the House -- is running not only all of government, but Obama and Dems as well!!


Granted, THE ENTIRE GOVERNMENT IS DYSFUNCTION -- but only because our Congress and presidnt

have sold themselves to corporations/elites!

That's the undeniable reality --


As Al Gore pointed out in his article this summer in Rolling Stone ...

"Congress is under the control of the oil and coal industry" -- !!


That's pretty much Koch Bros. which has also for more than 20 years infiltrated and controlled

the Dem Party!!


With the wealth of many other RW families who have created a Hollywood Sound Stage set of

fake organizations --


The Democratic Party is now under the control of the RW Third Way -- Jonathan Cowan, Pres. --

appeared on C-span recently to advise the public of their stance/policy which is that ...

"the base of the party is to be ignored" ---

and further that ...

"populism/populist discussions and debate are the equivalent of Karl Rove propaganda of

extremism" --

i.e., FDR/NEW DEAL IS KARL ROVE PROPAGANDA OF EXTREMISM!!



How many here are going to send their money to the Third Way --

or to support this corporate agenda?

[libinnyandia]

125. Why bother

to even try? The Republicans under Ronnie were able to control the debate. To go back to tax rates from 50 years ago is impossible. Reagan won with the help of Reagan Democrats, who inadverdently led to the destruction of unions and accelerated the decline of the working class. Many of those Reagan democrats are no longer with us, but those who are are still clueless about what happened. I don't think blaming Obama for everything bad that has happened is going to improve things. We have to make sure he gets re-elected and then put pressure on Congress to become functional again. Running 3rd party candidates like in 2000 will not help the situation. If what happened on the state level in Wisconsin, Ohio, etc doesn't motivate voters, then it's over. Not getting involved in the process is not an option.

[defendandprotect]

129. More than 20- years ago former Gov. Mario Cuomo -- his son now financed by RW Koch Bros ..

told us that we'd have to call out the Military if we wanted to increase taxes on elites --

The GOP and Reagan Administration -- with GHW Bush prominent as VP -- stole the '80 election --

with a treasonous "October Surprise" -- Gates was also a primary player in that treason.


And Carter was one of our weaker presidents -- with some very strange RW things going on in that

administration! But certainly Carter was prevented in every way from rescuing the hostages from

Iran -- and the failed rescues, btw, were under the control of Ollie North and second in command

was Secord!!

They just happened to forget to put the necessary attachments onto the engines of the helicopters

to prevent SAND from getting into teh engines!! Twice -- !!


And, of course, they had the electronic voting machines working fairly well by then!!

They'd been with us since the late 1960's!!


And it seems to me that Reagan and his administration made a pretty direct attack on

PATCO and unions -- both in the open and secretly -- including Mafia to attack unions.


One of the LAST things I'll be doing is making sure that Obama gets re-elected --

Like I'd give him another 4 years to destroy even more of the New Deal?

Did it look like when Obama was making back room deals with Big Pharma and the Private H/C

Industry that he was interested in having Congress involved? Or when he insured that Baucus

kept single-payer off the table? Or when he made private deals with GOP to renew tax cuts

for the rich? Do you recall Harry Reid asking what was going on and why he didn't know?

:rofl:


We don't need a third party candidate -- we need a real candidate to represent the will of

the people within the Democratic Party!


Someone like Sen. Bernie Sanders who could run on a Dem ticket --

Someone like Alan Grayson -- but preferably someone with a heart who has already sold themselves

to big corporations/elites --

and Oops! isn't that Obama out there do exactly that right now?


:puke:

[libinnyandia]

137. SCOTUS

is one of the main reasons not to let the GOP win. If they do we could have a 6 to 3 or 7 to 2 court. Who knows what they would decide. Maybe that corporations are above the law. Ther is nothing you can rule out if the GOP rules again. We might look back on the bush-cheney years fondly.

[defendandprotect]

167. More fear-based baloney -- especially if you understand Third Way control over the party ....

And if you want any further info on Thrid Way -- let me know or check with

Madfloridian who has done a lot of work on so many of these issues!



Jonathan Cowan, Pres. Third Way which now controls the party was on C-span about two

weeks ago and delivered these messages to viewers --

Third Way stance/policy is that "the base of the party is to be ignored" -- and that

"populism/populist discussions and debates are the equivalent of Karl Rove propaganda

of extremism" -- !!


Good luck on SCOTUS !!

[libinnyandia]

183. We might as well give up

[defendandprotect]

189. Either succumb to FEAR or "give up" .... ???? Wow - !!!

Rather, let's try to find democratic challengers who can run on the Dem ticket --

there are tons of them -- from James Galbraith to Alan Grayson --

Lots of democrats who haven't been pre-bribed and pre-owned by corporations ---


We need two strong anti-war candidates --

two strong supporters of MEDICARE4ALL --

Both of those issues would begin to put America back on her feet --

the longer we wait to resist this corporate power the more difficult it will be.

[bvar22]

252. Good Cop/Bad Cop again.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/justices-side-police-warrantless-search/story?id=13613343


He replaced Liberal judges with "Moderates",
especially in the case of John Paul Stevens.
The net result is that the Supreme Court is even MORE conservative AFTER the Obama appointments.

It is also important to remember that it was the Blue Dog "Centrist Democrats" that HELPED the Republican Party
place Reactionary Right Wing Judges Alito & Roberts on the bench.
(SEE: Gang of 14)

If the "Blue Dog" Democrats had stayed with the Democratic Caucus,
these judges could NOT have been seated.
This is the same wing of the Party that president Obama has empowered with important positions
in his cabinet, heading up Commissions, and actively campaigned FOR in the Democratic Primaries 2010.

Voting for Obama because of the Supreme Court appointments
is like voting to take the slower train to hell.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

250. I didn't know about the Ollie North thing ...

Thanks for the information.

:hi:

[okieinpain]

106. they stayed home, voter turnout was even low in oklahoma. n/t.

[reggie the dog]

194. i voted for obam yet the feds are still busting cannabis stores

in california selling medical cannabis, he promised he would put a stop to the raids

there is still a war in iraq, which he said he would end

there is still the patriot act and guantanamo and the bush tax cuts that he could have just asked his party to let expire


why should i vote for some asshole that once favored single payer national health care then said it was off the table once he was elected????


i should vote for the asshole that spits on his cock before raping me as opposed to the asshole that just jams it in?

[libinnyandia]

3. Why would anyone ever listen to Michael Moore?

I wish he would just shut up.

[teddy51]

4. Uh.. Maybe because he is right on perhaps! This is exactlly what is going to happen

in 2012.

[leveymg]

8. Millions of Americans disagree with you, and pay good money to hear his message.

Funny, how anyone who dares criticize Obama's rightward tilt is deemed worthless by a few people around here.

[Zoeisright]

19. You win!!!

For the fucking stupidest post of the year.

[libinnyandia]

261. ?

I thought Minneasotans were polite. I guess TPHC is out of date. I would rather hear from people like Paul Krugman, Robert Reich and other people with less simplistic ideas about the nature of this country.

[Hissyspit]

22. Because of his record of predicting things and being right about them?

Because of being ahead of the curve on the national discourse?

Seriously, what are you talking about?

[iamthebandfanman]

24. im waiting for you

to say anything positive about any progressive...
cause i havent yet in any of your posts that im aware of ...

im not trying to say youre a plant..
im just sayin'.

[AmericaIsGreat]

26. I'd love to hear your explanation

As to why he should "shut up"? I'm pretty sure he's been right about everything he has said for over a decade.

[fascisthunter]

28. too bad.... too bad people can think for themselves

and don't do as you wish.

[Richardo]

64. I think it shows more independent thought to challenge Michael Moore around here.

Too many eat up every word he utters, without question or critical thought.

[theaocp]

94. I love your pic

but wonder if it's projection. Dogs eat up every word, too, without question or critical thought.

[Richardo]

102. I think you'll find I apply a lot of critical thought to Mr Moore's musings....

...and I'm usually pilloried for it.

[reggie the dog]

220. ?

I think most of us on here use critical thought quite often, it just so happens that Michael Moore has been doing great documentaries since the 80's. Hell even the comedy Canadian Bacon that he directed took the piss out of our fascination with the idea that violence was the solution. Quite often many of us agree with him because we find that he sees things simillar to the way we do and that he has the national spotlight so we read or listen to him to hear the word he has spread out to the others.

[reggie the dog]

222. ?

I think most of us on here use critical thought quite often, it just so happens that Michael Moore has been doing great documentaries since the 80's. Hell even the comedy Canadian Bacon that he directed took the piss out of our fascination with the idea that violence was the solution. Quite often many of us agree with him because we find that he sees things simillar to the way we do and that he has the national spotlight so we read or listen to him to hear the word he has spread out to the others.

[defendandprotect]

34. Partially agree re elections ... LOVE MICHAEL MOORE, however ....

Remember he backed Nader in 2000 and then attacked Nader as the cause of the loss!

And has never apologized to Nader --

Certainly the 2000 steal by GOP needs to constantly be discussed -- but then we also

need to think about the ticket the Dem elite gave us ... Gore/backed by oil industry

most of his political career and Lieberman!!!???


This time around, Michael pushed for Obama -- so did Nader!

And look where that got us -- !!


If we look back at all of this, obviously we are being given our candidates by elites --

and no matter which party you vote for you are voting for the elite/corporate candidate!


So -- there is some truth to what you're saying -- Michael Moore hasn't yet reached the

same reality in his choices as his intelligence, his writings and his movies have -- !!


Every time we vote for the "lesser evil" we move the party and the Congress further to the

right.


As OWS is showing us -- it is all up to us.


We can continue to do the same thing over and again and expect different resuls, or we can

begin to do something different. We have a huge liberal voting bloc -- We need to get

together and do something positive with it instead of voting for any evil!!


Meanwhile, love you Michael -- !!! Keep at it, we'll get it right eventually!!


:)

[Fantastic Anarchist]

255. Republicans and Democrats ...

Two families in the political crime syndicate.

[DeSwiss]

41. Not sure. Lot of people have their own reasons for listening to Michael Moore.

I listen to him because he speaks the truth. Apparently you don't care for it. Which is fine by me.

- A lot of those so-called "New Democrats" are like that.

[Plucketeer]

51. You know.............

....there's likely some folks that have the same sentiment about you!

[Vanje]

56. You ...and the banking industry,...

....and the insurance industry....and Wall Street......and the Republican spinners......and the anti-union forces......and those who think free speech is only for people who can pay millions for it.

[BigD_95]

60. @ libinnyandia

Are you freaking serious?? U want Michael Moore to shut up? I cant believe I just read that. The guy has been fighting for the middle class & poor forever. He was a big Obama supporter when he was running. Its not his fault Obama didnt follow through.

Moore speaks the truth and wont lie for Obama but I bet he still tries hard to get him elected.

I cant believe I read that.

[harun]

184. So you are against free speech, and liberty?

[walerosco]

195. Because he speaks from the heart

and he is not bought and paid for unlike 99.9% of congress

[Javaman]

196. fail. nt

[redqueen]

215. Welcome to DU (nt)

[reggie the dog]

219. watch Roger and Me

then you too will know why people listen to him.

[L0oniX]

246. Why would anyone read your responses? I won't anymore!

[Fantastic Anarchist]

251. Because he's fucking right.

Keep living in your delusion that Obama is here to help you.

[CarmanK]

5. Yeah, and we SEE THE DAMAGE THAT WAS DONE!

With the take over of the House by the TBAGGERS and the changes on the state level has been disastrous. I am tire of the excuses. You either love this country and value your citizenship or you don't. You either honor the sacrifices of the founders or you don't. The repugs have spent 30 years tearing down this democracy in order to create an oligarchy because the democracy was working, capitaliam was working for the many and the people were really in charge of their fate and their future. No more excuses. Get up and fight the tbaggers. Their vision of the future is bad for the US and very bad for the world.

[a simple pattern]

30. the repugs?

bullshit it was only the repugs. nobody's buying that anymore

[FedUp_Queer]

42. Bingo. Every time I read this crap, I can't help but wonder...

who do these people think was in charge for two years? It was in that time that we got a watered-down health care bill, a watered-down stimulus, more warrantless wiretapping, more tax cuts for the rich, administration support for indefinite detention, the expansion of Bagram air base, more complaints of torture, complete government immunity for spying on citizens and more drone attacks and civilian deaths. Perhaps all the Obama toadies and "only the repugs" crowd can explain approving BP's permit to drill...IN THE GULF; or the tar sands pipeland; Shell's approval from this administration to drill in the Arctic; a troop build up in the Persian Gulf. Those last three were the Administration's exercises of power, only.

Granted, some sort of insurance reform is a positive; some sort of stimulus was positive; repeal of DADT was good; Lily Ledbetter was good; SCHIP expansion was good. However, too much horror happened in the first two years and too much has happened since then. As "a simple pattern" writes, "nobody's buying that any more."

[tomp]

176. bones and crumbs for the masses....

...obscene wealth for the rich. tht has always been the role of the democrats. obama is no exception.

[reggie the dog]

223. not always

FDR (the asshole who signed the law making cannabis illegal) was actually the best, most left wing, economically speaking, president in the history of the USA and he was a Democrat.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

256. Only because he co-opted the socialists' and communists' rhetoric ...

... to get himself elected. Otherwise, there would have been a revolution in this country. To be sure, he did good things, but only to "save capitalism from itself."

Edit: grammar

[tomp]

267. he (really "they") did what he had to do....

....to prevent communists and socialists (i.e., working people) from gaining further ground in american politics.

democrats =good cop/bad cop, period.

[walerosco]

200. +1000

Don't forget the he supported the give away to the banks and his appointed FED chairman oversaw the transfer of billion of dollars to the banks in exchange for worthless mortgage backed securities.

[me b zola]

84. I choose to fight conservatism where ever it may be or how it manifests itself

I personally believe that it is much more dangerous for conservative talking points and memes to come from the mouths of people who claim to represent progressive people.

There was a poll a while back that got to the nut of it: Which is more dangerous, a wolf or a wolf in sheep's clothing?

[defendandprotect]

168. +1 -- "Which is more dangerous, a wolf or a wolf in sheep's clothing?" --

[walerosco]

203. +1000

Bingo, conservatism is infinitely more dangerous when it is dressed up in progressive garb

[PoliticAverse]

6. I'm pretty sure Obama wasn't running in 2010...

So if in fact they were extremely motivated to vote in 2008 because Obama was running
they wouldn't be as motivated to vote in 2010 anyway.

[defendandprotect]

39. Obama had trampled single-payer health care by then -- and it was over -- !!!

And Obama did that in back room deals with Big Pharma and the private H/C industry --

and here's Rahm Emmanuel "crowing" about it and how "grateful" business should be to

Obama -- !!



In a Thursday interview, White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel arguedthat rather than recoiling against Obama, business leaders should be grateful for his support on at least a half-dozen counts: his his rejection of calls from some quarters to nationalize banks during the financial meltdown; the rescue of the automobile industry; the fact that the overhaul of health care preserved the private delivery system; the fact that billions in the stimulus package benefited business with lucrative new contracts, and that financial regulation reform will take away the uncertainty that existed with a broken, pre-crash regulatory apparatus.


the fact that the overhaul of health care

preserved the private delivery system

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=B2F85DDF-18FE-70B2-A835FE1E7FA8D74C


If that doesn't make you sick to your stomach, nothing will --




:nuke:

[DeSwiss]

43. How can anyone at DU be so obtuse? (rhetorical question) I don't care for your answer. n/t

[xchrom]

7. recommend

[tridim]

9. Michael is just upset that Ralph isn't running this year.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

259. Yeah, it's something as superficial and simple as that.

Most certainly.

:eyes:

[Autumn]

10. And they probably will again

K/R

[Richardo]

11. They stayed home because it was an off year election. 'Twas ever thus.

A LOT of people stayed home.

It's not a big mystery, Mike. No need to project your anger at Obama on the rest of the voting public.

[DeSwiss]

44. Not. Just. His. Anger. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

187. Oregon had the largest midterm turnout since the 80's....

Of course, we vote from home, so we both stayed home and voted in large numbers, electing Democrats, just as CA and WA did.
The mystery then is why did some blocks in some states look at Republicans and decide to elect them, because that is what happened in some states. Not here. How do you explain that with CAPS and snark? How could apathy be regional? Why would it be? Can not wait to hear your reasons...

[certainot]

12. politically naive twits thought a black man could kick butt inthe white billionaires house

and the lazy stupid fucks gave us a republican congress. and some of them are doubling down, denying their part in the teabagger takeover. fuck them all if they don't work twice as hard now to make up for it.

didn't pelosi's congress pass 400 bills, including media and election reform and wall st regulation, and the senate stopped about all of them?

[DeSwiss]

45. I'm certain your lovely words will win them back. :-/ n/t

[AlbertCat]

67. didn't pelosi's congress pass 400 bills

Yes. Because it's Congress... the House and the Senate... that make laws, not Obama.

Yes, Obama is the leader of the party and has the bully pulpit, but imagine what might happen if we didn't have weak kneed Dems undercutting the gains we could make if laws would get through the process (like passing the Senate) so Obama can either sign it or not.

Voters stay home on mid-term elections because it's too much of a personality contest for the president that they are overly concerned with. Pay attention to CONGRESS!

[certainot]

78. but i think it's arguable who has the bully pulpit.

high paid PR flaks in think tanks comb the news daily for trends to see if obama and dems are making the news and how. if it's something they don't like they can create a response/campaign and scream it through their 1000 coordinated RW radio stations as long as it takes to distort, distract, or shout over it. and they've already got a head start with 20 years of a free speech free ride, creating the dittohead teabagger reality.

many of the week kneed dems and blue dogs are also the result of local RW radio stations dominating local politics enough to make progressives unacceptable, while intimidating or enabling blue dogs in the red radio states.

[certainot]

79. PS - OWS may be the first 'entity' in 20 years to be louder than RW talk radio

[reggie the dog]

224. lazy stupid fucks who didnt want to go vote say for

a fake democrat who would have been a republican in 1975?

[certainot]

227. i didn't know obama was on the ballot. stupid lazy fucks didn't vote in 2010.

[reggie the dog]

240. i am talking about their 2010 candidates

why do you think that i say obama when i say some republican in democrats clothes????

it does fit him but so does it the dinos in congress.

[certainot]

265. a lot of decent reps lost, and ALL those teabaggers were worth voting against.

some abstaining dem voters may have such high principles that they can't vote for a dino to vote against a republican but i suspect most make a shitload of compromises an a daily basis. and a lot of new voter believed the trolls.

the result? look where we are now.

[reggie the dog]

266. i know that grayson

and feingold losing was horrible, so those are not the people i am talking about, i am talking about people who didnt have real democrats to vote for.

[certainot]

268. i don't think it will get much better as long as the left leaves RW talk radio alone to determine

who is acceptable and unacceptable in media and politics.

that's my perspective in this. not only will RW radio help exclude real progressives by moving the center right on local and national level, it will keep obstructing any real reform.

and until there is some organized opposition to the right's best weapon, or even just recognition of it, the left is going to keep evaluating their politicians in a talk radio vacuum, underestimating the opposition that beats them, messages over them, and forces them to compromise.

[mcgarry50]

13. 2010 losers

democrats lost because they were unable to stand up for anything. they woukn't stand up for the healthcare law they just passed, hell they didn't even want to pass the budget because they were to afraid to stand up and look at the mess that produced.

[Coyote_Bandit]

14. Ya Know

I really understand how younger folks might feel they were used by the 2008 Obama campaign. He promised hope and change - something outside his ability to deliver given the make-up of Congress. And since then he has largely played a bipartisian game. He's not exactly been vocal in seeking the kind of change many expected nor has he been particularly vocal in his complaints about Congress. Hardly the behavior of a leader who desperately wants to bring change.

Me? I'm an old fart who never had particularly high expectations for this administration - and still find myself saddened by the lack of accomplishment. Had Obama been more proactive in seeking out and fighting for real change he could have been a great President. But he has been more interested in being bipartisian and keeping the corporate boys happy.

I voted for Obama in 2008 not because I bought what he was shoveling but because he was the best of two flawed candidates. I expect I'll make the same decision and do the same thing in 2012. While I am disappointed and frustrated with Omama's job performance I do not have the buyer's remorse of those who bought into what he was seling and often invested considerable effort and resources into his campaign.

There are a lot of reasons to vote for Obama in 2012. But it's going to beharder for him to be re-elected than it was for him in 2008. He can't run on hope and change. He has a track record now and he will be running on "more of the same" whether he frames it that way or not. And there are lots of reasons to reject more of the same. Lots of people are hurting - and hurting badly. That probably wouldn't matter so much if Obama had been fighting for them since taking office - even if his efforts were unsuccessful. As is, he is just another politcian who is not to be believed or trusted.

Yes, I want him to be re-elected but I completely understand those who aspire to apathy and think he is full of sh*t. It will be harder to get them motivated to support Obama this time around - and it may well be the difference in the election. But sometimes we reap what we sow.

[Kahuna]

16. They actually stayed home because of the idiotic whining by

Moore and his ilk. I hope they know better than to listen to the PL, considering the results.

[SwampG8r]

212. if he is the "PL" i guess that would make you the "PR"

[SemperEadem]

17. and the answer isn't holding your breath or taking your ball and going home

if there were Dems who needed to be replaced with progressives instead of tea party thugs, then these young people should have been out in force to make sure it happened. Those knuckleheads didn't just stroll up into congress on their own.

Staying home did the exact opposite of what they thought their tantrum would do for them.

I'm not thrilled with how the last year and half has played out, but I rather believe that the answer was to do all I could to make sure the man had the team he needed behind him to do the job, and that meant getting off my butt and voting on election day.

[Kahuna]

18. Yep. No jobs..no prospects for jobs and sleeping in the snow in

Zuccoti Park. Yeah, they sure showed Obama. Obama has a job and a nice warm bed every night.

[JoeyT]

21. Yeah, and he's using that job to oppose them.

He never met a Wall Street exec he wouldn't appoint.

[eilen]

201. He keeps warm in bed with bankers and corporate CEOs. nt

[Segami]

23. Obama campaigned on ' CHANGE '. Yes, he has a " JOB " and a nice bed

unlike most who voted for his promised "Change ".


Here is one of those wonderful , inspiring Obama speeches where he talks about " CHANGE ".

Did Obama misplace his comfortable marching shoes?

Three plus years and counting and we have YET to see him " WALK THE PICKET LINE " for ANY cause!



"....And understand this: If American workers are being denied their right to organize and collectively bargain when I’m in the White House, I’ll put on a comfortable pair of shoes myself. I’ll walk on that picket line with you as president of the United States....”....:rofl: Thats called ' BS '.


video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=q5voSHCn6NE


.

[SemperEadem]

172. who was the last president who walked a picket line in any cause?

[a simple pattern]

32. holy oblivious

chill the fuck out everyone, he's got his

[frylock]

49. ...and a whole lotta money and a bunch of good buddies over on wall st

[defendandprotect]

108. That's happening because so many have sold out their principles ....

you may be laughing at these youth for standing up for their principles

but when you keep voting for the "lesser evil" and ignorning princple all you

do is move the party and Congress further to the right --



Who will have "a job and a warm bed" when the Third Way finishes with the Dem Party?

After 20 and more years of RW Koch Bros. funding the DLC which infiltrated and controlled

the Dem Party, it's now the Third Way controlling the party --

And Jonathan Cowan, Pres. Third Way made clear on C-span about two weeks ago that the policy/

stand of the Third Way is that "the base of the party is to be ignroed" ---

and that "populism/populist discussions and debates are the equivalent of Karl Rove propaganda

of extremism" -- !!!


In other words, NEW DEAL/FDR/SAFETY NETS/SOCIAL SECURITY, MEDICARE are all the same as

Karl Rove propaganda of extremism!!


And who's going to be sending money to the Third Way Dems -- or voting for their candidates?

[defendandprotect]

46. Michael Moore just did a lot of harm if he's given us the idea this is a "tantrum" ....

these are 18-29 with no futures -- and that's something we have to understand.

They've been deprived of jobs -- when they've gotten jobs, they've been repeatedly

laid off -- they have dwindling benefits, longer waits for them, pretty much no

pensions -- and very expensive costs for any health care they are getting!

They have huge student loans they're still paying -- but mainly what the corporate/

elites are showing them is that they have no normal future ahead of them.

This isn't just about the 18-29 year old -- it is also about the their parents who

understand what I am saying to you.

Many of these kids would be getting married and starting families -- but many are

still living at home with parents.

And that's not by choice!

[Lorien]

115. No, the answer is to pressure your President to ACT like a f*cking Democrat

instead of another puppet of the 1%.

[SemperEadem]

173. act like a fucking democrat with a tea bag thug majority in the house

and centrist, corporatist repub-dems in the Senate.

There are a lot of things that I really hate about how he's discharged his duties as president. Most of all, I hate that he waited until now to use executive orders as a last resort, and I hate that the lives of a whole lot of people have been adversely affected by that decision, including friends and family members of mine, but also, the citizenry at large--because it is all one huge web of support. My neighbor needs to do well so that my community can do well; my community needs to do well so my city/town can do well; and so on.

I have to wonder just what would have been the outcome had he reached for it as a first resort, like bush. It would appear that he's using executive orders now, after having given all of the congress more than enough time to pop a top on a can of "act right". But let us not forget that the sitting majority leader of the senate declared that it was his intention to do everything in his power to make him a one term president, and he was cheered and egged on by limpfuck issuing marching orders to congress that he wanted the president to fail and if the country failed in the process, so be it. And let us not forget that right wing media ginned up the idiot mouth-breathers and reinforced the directive issued by limpfuck and the MSM gave them the necessary cover to do so.

One man battling against every front, yet he's supposed to what? Go outside the parameters of his office to do it? No one would have his back if he did--they'd find a reason to hate on even that.

Unfortunately, a lot of people have been dragged through hell for him to be able to build a solid case to justify him using executive orders. Thank god he's finally gotten around to it, but I don't think that he should have waited so long.

[FlaGranny]

177. One man!

What could he have done? He could have put forth an effort and TRIED instead of giving in before even beginning negotiations. That's what he could have done.

[reggie the dog]

231. that way he could have tried

and said "hey i tried, they blocked me, if you want that reform you have to either get these people to listen and change their actions or vote get people in office who will vote as you want them to." which would likely increase interest in mid term elections...... it is as if obama wanted turnout to be low.....

[reggie the dog]

226. sometimes the way of pressuring someone is to say

if you dont do this i will walk away from you, well, if the leader walks away then fuck that leader, we need leaders who listen to US, not leaders who tell us that things a majority of americans want are off the table.

[civilisation]

20. He make the point very well,.

say you are going to do something and then don't follow through,. this is why the dems. are lost to the older white vote we have all seen this dance before,. Obama has now taught the same thing to the youth,. It will be hard in fact impossible to get them back without cleaning up the list of broken promises,. there is still time start today,. no excuses.

[yodermon]

27. They didn't "stay home" as an active political *act*.

They stayed home because they simply weren't inspired to show up. Better things to do, didn't know there even was an election, etc. etc.
It is always up to the candidate(s)/party running for office TO INSPIRE /GOTV/ Message the rank & file Democrats to get to the polls.

** BLAMING THE ELECTORATE ** in any way shape or form, will never EVER EVER inspire people to come back to the polls.

"Hello 2008 Obama voters. Fuck you very much for not voting in 2010. Now please vote Dem+Obama in 2012. EOM."
um FAIL.

MM's point is the "crowdsourcing" aspect of O's 2008 campaign is lacking because the "crowdsourcERS" *are* the politically-aware, politically active, more-liberal set, and they >VOLUNTEER< .. they are not professional paid operatives who can be spanked into getting on-message. This crowd either will be inspired by the overt actions of the President, or they will not, as sure as night follows day and gravity pulls. Full stop.

[defendandprotect]

48. Didn't watch all of the video -- but it's a mistake to make 18-29 year olds the new ENEMY -- !!!

I don't think that's really where Michael Moore intended to go -- and I haven't

actually watched the WHOLE video.

These are young adults with no futures -- perhaps the first generation since New Deal

to honestly have NO FUTURE. No health care, no dental care, student loan, constant

lay offs from jobs -- and long waits for them -- dwindling benefits and higher costs

for health care -- many still living with parents and unable to go out on their own,

to marry if they wish. Anyone think they'll have pensions? Even their 401K's have

been ripped off!

And they're hearing nothing from the Dem Party about reversing all of this --


Today Bernanke is stone walling again at the FED re a stimulus -- though even he had

seemed to be getting a few weeks ago!! But the word is out -- keep on stonewalling re

this depression!


Michael Moore -- though I love him -- is wrong to blame 18-29 year olds for this --

The Third Way which controls the party is pledged to "ignore the base of the party" according

to Third Way President, Jonathan Cowan on C-span two weeks ago.

That's their stance/policy -- "IGNORE THE BASE OF THE PARTY" -- !!


FURTHER -- in line with what you are saying re actual discussions/debates which bring voters

out -- Cowan/Third Way also said on C-span that as for "populism/populist discussion and

debate, it is the equivalent of Karl Rove propaganda of extremism" -- !!!



So now the New Deal is Karl Rove extremism!!!


Michael Moore has to be offering more help than this --

this message is being very quickly picked up as an excuse to hate our kids and all youth!!

Who are we going F-up if we do that but ourselves?



:hi:

[Kahuna]

50. Michael Moore thinks HE is the voice of the left. But he isn't. He should

just speak for hisself.

[defendandprotect]

53. Michael Moore is voice of left on many issues -- from capitalism to corporatism ... .

but he has never quite gotten the election thing down quite right --

to say the least!!

However, it's a huge mistake for Michael Moore to make 18-29 year olds the ENEMY and notice

how many here are willing to join in that HATRED now for them!!!


Amazing how easy it is to sell hatred for anyone!!



:hi:

[jwirr]

83. One thing - his assumption that it was the youth is not always correct.

Here in NE MN craavack ran as a man who had belonged to a union and many fell for that who should have known better. And they were not the youth.

[defendandprotect]

89. Agree with you -- PLUS I did not mean to suggest that MM is purposefully creating HATE for 18-29

year olds --

As I said I didn't watch ALL of the video - will try to -- but think he'd have to

look at this video and the comments to understand the unintended consequences of

what he is saying!!



:hi:

[jwirr]

91. I agree with you about MM - I do not think he can see how angry

people could be at the movement. What is done is done. They seem to be working toward the right goals now. We need to stay behind them.

[defendandprotect]

113. Absolutely agree on support for youth and OWS .... just think MM made a bit of a mistake here ...

and you can see that from the posts on this thread!

Elites understand that youth are the threat -- that's why they are always

demonizing them.

[Javaman]

198. fail again. nt

[eilen]

204. defendandprotect--I totally have a political crush on you.

Keep it up! I add my voice to yours.

[reggie the dog]

233. how is he making the youth the enemy?

he points out that young people are idealistic, that they dont like having shit blown up their asses, and that they will abandon those who bullshit them.

then a few people on here start to attack young people like they are stupid or something well what the fuck? moore didnt do that. moore put the blame on obama, not on the young, if anything he hinted that older people indeed do sell out their ideals and continue to support people who bullshit them.

[totodeinhere]

68. They shouldn't need to be "inspired" to vote. Voting is something that all citizens should do.

And you're saying they "didn't know there even was an election." Wow, how ignorant is that. And older more conservative voters sure knew there was an election and they voted in large numbers. It's just unconscionable to me that they would be so stupid that they didn't even know there was an election. If someone is going to be that disengaged then they deserve what they get.

[defendandprotect]

90. And did voters who actually voted for Obama's "change" actually deserve what they got?

Let's be honest about this ... candidates are hiding who they are and what

they really stand for because they know the public will vote against a

corporate agenda.

And by collusion of both parties we have debates which are in private corporate

hands, where, by agreement between both parties, there is no real discussion

of anything!


Would also just add that I was aware back in the 1980's that college professors

were telling kids that "NOT VOTING" was the strongest statement they could make

against the establishment. And, that was being told to students in Political

Science classes!!


As Nader points out, corporations have their our kids minds from the moment they

enter school -- or before -- and they certainly aren't being taught citizen

activism!

[Douglas Carpenter]

29. EXCELLENT!!! knr

[Charronxyz]

31. It's insanity...

It's insanity that people still believe in this two party system, that after all these years in spite of all the evidence people still argue over nonsense and believe that one party or this politician will save us all if we are patient and vote right, by participating in this fraud we give it legitimacy and enslave ourselves. When something doesn't work you move on and try something different, in a few weeks OWS has done more to influence the national dialog than the democrats have in the past 30 years.

[a simple pattern]

33. and listen to them scream

like vampires in the sun

[DeSwiss]

47. +1000

:thumbsup:

[whatchamacallit]

71. American Two Party Election Handbook

http://www.grandin.com/behaviour/principles/moving.sorting.html

[defendandprotect]

110. +1000% -- !!! K/R

[DeSwiss]

38. They. Are. Sick. Of. Liars.

- And so am I.......

K&R

''My father told me, 'you are what you do, not what you say.' Well, what you do makes me cry at night. You
grownups say you love us. But I challenge you, please make your actions reflect your words.'' http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=twU_Hf0GNuQ">~Severn Suzuki

[RollWithIt]

52. Find me an off year election where the youth vote has EVER been high

It just doesn't happen. Heck, even Presidential years the youth vote is usually disproportionally low.

[Bluenorthwest]

193. Well, Florida, what goes on there is not typical

Oregon had the largest midterm turnout since the 80's in 2010, across age groups, across all groups. So 'it just doesn't happen in Florida'. Why? Because Florida Democrats do not make it happen, that's why. Sorry to hit you with facts, but our elections are State by State. Ours are not run like yours, and our results are not like yours either. In 2010, Florida was pushing Crist over the Democrat! How can you motivate voters by saying 'don't vote for our candidate in that race, but do so in others, first vote for recent Republican Crist'. Puh-lease, man.

[valerief]

57. We have a choice in 2012. We can vote for the Republican candidate or

we can vote for the crazy loon unqualified stoooooopid Tea Party candidate.

[defendandprotect]

112. That's not a "choice" -- it's voting for a "lesser evil" again and expecting "change" -- !! Really?

[JoePhilly]

61. Yea, because young voters always turn out BIG during the mid terms!!!!

Spare us.

And oh ... I love his logic, liberals like Michael are going to vote for Obama, and then, as he continues to bash Obama, Michael remains confused as to why "others" (independents / moderates?) can't be "convinced", assuming that Obama is the problem there.

Catch a clue Michael ... the right does nothing but scream OBAMA BAD .... and folks like you on the left do nothing but scream OBAMA BAD too .... and sure the reasons are separated by 180 degrees, but that is irrelevant ... there is one CORE MESSAGE that comes from the far right and the far left, and that is OBAMA BAD.

And that's all the Independents and Moderates hear from the media. Of course, the GOP does not care which OBAMA BAD framing those Independents and Moderates decide is the correct version, just so long as they accept ONE of them.

Either way ... the middle is supposed to internalize the core message ... OBAMA BAD ... and Michael, you are helping do exactly that, which will make it harder to convince the "others".

[Bluenorthwest]

218. So your contention is that idiotic moderate centrists need to

hear tightly controlled constant praise based talking points because they are too flat out stupid to think for themselves? So the rest of us have to engage in political baby talk so they don't get confused and cast an incorrect vote? How 'independent' are they, if they are led by the nose by ads and pundits? How are they 'moderate' if they can vote for radical right wing nuts if they hear any nuanced criticism?
Asking people to lower their discussions to a place where 'moderates, centrists and independents' can hear it without being confused is cute, but dangerous. If they are so easily deceived they are not of much value to us, and we'd be better off simply registering many new voters to replace their fickle, random emotionalism.

For every right wing 'moderate' we can make 10 new liberal ardents if we try. So fuck the non existent center. If they really existed, they'd have a Party, a movement. Where are the Centrist demonstrations going on? Yeah, that's right, there are none.

[JoePhilly]

244. Where did I say "constant praise"?

I'm talking about ENDLESS complaining. There really is NO praise.

The media brings on a right wing pundit who attacks Obama from the right, and then they have a left wing pundit who attacks him from the left. There is almost no praise. Here's what PEW found ...

Pew found that just 9 percent of the president’s coverage was positive, while 34 percent was negative — a stark contrast to the 32 percent positive coverage and 20 percent negative that it found Texas Gov. Rick Perry, the most covered Republican, received.

“His coverage has been substantially more negative in every one of the last 23 weeks of the last five months — even the week that Bin Laden was killed,” Tom Rosenstiel, director of the Project for Excellence in Journalism, said of the president’s treatment in the media compared with that of the GOP field.

http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2011/10/17/pew_study_2012_obama_receives_more_negative_media_coverage_than_.html

And here's another source on this ...
http://www.usnews.com/news/washington-whispers/articles/2009/09/14/media-coverage-of-obama-grows-more-negative

Oh, and yes, most Americans are swayed by the message sent in the media, that's just a fact. You can ignore it if you want.

I should also point out that the goal of the 2 versions of the OBAMA BAD message are to (1) for the right wing version, Increase GOP turn-out, and (2) for the left wing version, Depress Democratic turn out.

Obama beat McCain by about 6% ... a three point swing on both sides of the turn out scale makes the 2012 election closer, and easier to steal.

[Atypical Liberal]

62. "The Occupy Movement is an indictment of Obama's Presidency"

I read that over on Reddit today, and I think they're right.

People, especially young people, gave it a shot in the last presidential election. Now they have determined that the system is just fucking broken. It doesn't matter who you vote for, because the money has gotten to them all.

Thus, Occupy.

[Matariki]

161. Sad. But I think you are correct.

[eilen]

205. You got it! nt

[reggie the dog]

235. which is actually a damn good understanding of reality

the big money had gotten both of them.

[creon]

63. situation normal.

It is normal that many youth are impatient and rebellious. I expect them to be. They have good reason to be.
It is normal that many older people are neither. It is far easier to follow the line of least resistance.
It is normal that whites did not vote for a black man. We stll live with racial prejudice.
it is normal that young people do not vote in off year elections. They are too busy and do not understand the importance of legislatures.
It is normal that elected officials do not do a good job of solving problems through writing laws. They just don't.

Moore did not say anything that I already did not know.

I am glad for OWS. Maybe it will shake things up a bit.

[totodeinhere]

65. There is no excuse for not voting. If they disagreed with Obama because he did not

follow through on enough issues important to progressives, then imagine how much they must disagree with the regressive rethugs. Yet staying home is tantamount to voting for the thugs. So as I said there is no excuse for not voting. I like MM and agree with him most of the time, but I think he is off base here.

[clixtox]

156. Drug law sanity...

Obomba could have easily galvanized huge swaths of the young adult voters by following through on his promises to end the unconscionable "war on drugs".

The incredibly high incarceration rates today due to the war on youth("drugs") affects millions of families every single day.

This is a change Obomba could have instigated by himself, easily.

When he didn't, and he still hasn't, he is quite possibly sabotaging any chance for re-election.

His quick about face, for whatever reason, killed any enthusiasm for him or the Democrats.

This is a disappointment that is impossible to overlook, or rationalize away. This is just beyond stupid!

Another instance of, "Crackpot Realism", the American(US) way.

[Howler]

66. True That!

And when this confounded "Super Committee" that Obama helped create gets done cutting SS and medicare you can count a whole lot of other folks out.

[ooglymoogly]

69. In the bigger picture, what 0 has done to this country is far more devastating,

destroying its legal foundations in the constitution. The fact that * did this first, is no excuse and only adds fuel to the fire; for not only was he not prosecuted, 0 has doubled down, plunging "D" into the tarpits of the evil the pukes live in.

He did not, nor does he and his poodle holder, prosecute blatant criminals of the "ruling class" bragging openly about their heinous war crimes of lying, torture and theft, that carelessly plunged this country into third world status of bickering over pennies.

This while championing draconian laws for the middle and poor classes; furthering the idiotic drug wars; championing an illegal fascist patriot act to keep folks at bay and to keep them from fighting back with pikes and torches. We have become a country no longer based in law for all citizens alike.

The question for me is: Is it better in the long run for the Democratic party to elect a Dino to push the Repuke agenda, sullying its name in perpetuity, or is it better, if we cannot have a real Democrat, like FDR; to concentrate on the congress; on folks like Alan Grayson and Elizabeth Warren, et al; while hoping against hope a progressive independent like Bernie Sanders or a like challenger appears on the scene.

OWS has done more for progressives in weeks than all the democrats in congress for the last 40 years.

They are the last hope for democracy in this country.

[jwirr]

86. This is where we can do something - we must get progressives into

congress but hopefully there will not be a president who will just veto their bills. So if we do not care who is president then we need a strong congress made of committed progressives. Is that even possible? Are enough of our progressives running?

[ooglymoogly]

97. My sense is, the die is cast...0 will be the next president, the fix is in so to speak....

OWS, however gives us the megahorn soapbox to get some honest folks into congress. Just watching these kids; moving like the founding fathers, with grit determination and intelligence, gives me hope we can, with KO, Rachel, and the journalists he has promoted to prominence, get this done.

I think we have a good shot at unseating the pukes for a long while as they have way overplayed their weak hand...however it is imperative that we get a veto proof congress in place and counter the puke cheating, lying and thieving at every crooked move to steal elections.

Move on has its thumb on the progressives running and I am spending more than I have to send what I can to these candidates, Alan Grayson and Elizabeth Warren in the lead.

[jwirr]

121. I also have hope that we can do this. But sometimes it is hard to keep

that hope.

[Segami]

131. +1000 n/t

[OneGrassRoot]

221. Quotable:

"OWS has done more for progressives in weeks than all the democrats in congress for the last 40 years."

:applause:

[libinnyandia]

70. progressives

When I posted my reponse to Moore's statements, I knew I would get lots of feedback and attacks from many people, none of whom know me and what I believe. I have been a supporter of progressive politics for over 40 years, spending most of the 1980's working for a Nader-inspired organization, not making much money, but making a difference. Correcting the direction that this country is heading requires more than attacks on people like Al Gore or Barack Obama, attacks in Gore's case let the GOP steal an election. This country's system is so screwed up, that it will be very hard to fix it. To blame Obama for not fixing the problems caused by Bush is so simplistic. What I don't like about Moore is his taking the easy way out: attack Obama, ignore the other, systemic problems that make change so hard. A divided progressive movement will never be effective. Moore doesn't unite, he divides. I'll check back to hear from more DYers.

[Major Hogwash]

73. The fat millionaire who supported Nader in 2000?? That Michael Moore??

I suppose the kids stayed home then, too?

[whatchamacallit]

75. Your freeping of Moore

only diminishes you.

[Segami]

85. No content, just name calling. Petty indeed.

[Major Hogwash]

128. The facts speak for themselves, speaking of content.

Today he is your hero, tomorrow he will be your zero.
Michael Moore advocated for Nader loud and clear in 2000, while calling Al Gore a joke.

[eilen]

208. Al Gore

Okay, I am agree he is erudite and a passionate defender of the environment. However. Why the hell did he fold in 2000? There's your joke. Unfunny.

[Bluenorthwest]

211. And in 2004 he campaigned harder for Kerry than Kerry did

http://slackeruprising.com/about.php
In 2000, many Democrats in Blue States advocated voting Green in order to get the Green Party enough votes to qualify for public funding, to participate in debates and such. Thom Hartmann was one of them, he can explain it all to you. The idea was to open up the political dialog, not to elect Nader, which was not possible. Attaining funding was possible. I personally objected to that tactic at the time, and encouraged people to vote Gore in spite of Lieberman, it was Gore/Lieberman remember, and in spite of Al's distancing himself from Clinton, who never campaigned for Gore at all. At Gore's request. Of course, when Al won, he could not wait to concede anyway, so he did. Instantly. Many of the people who I got to vote Gore instead of Green felt they had wasted a vote on a man who did not really care to protect their vote.
Now when 08 came, many of my Green pals were already head over heals for Obama, so no need to electioneer them. By 2010, they were already lost, back to Green and/or jaded voting. In 12 it will be 2000 all over again for me, nagging 08's ardent Obama voters to cast another vote for him will be a chore.

[Major Hogwash]

253. Michael Moore is as relevant as my hemorrhoid!!!

He's just a little itch in my asshole every once in awhile!!

:rofl:

[reggie the dog]

237. Gore was a joke, he didnt even stand up when the supreme court

stole his election by stopping the recount that actually later gave him florida. he should have called on people to go on strike and demand that their voices be heard, not that we simply let the court decide and stop a recount process begun by the person who was awarded the office of president. he was a tool Gore was. He does great work trying to build awareness about global warming now so perhaps he had a gun to his head when he was a tool, but he was a tool nonetheless in 2000

[Major Hogwash]

272. Read "The Betrayal of America" by Vincent Bugliosi to learn about that decision.

You may not like what Bugliosi says in that book, but the forewards are written by Molly Ivins and Gerry Spence.
A general strike would not have been effective in 2000.
The sheeple were not willing, nor were they awake in 2000.

[reggie the dog]

274. i may have to read that book, i wrote down the title and author

[Major Hogwash]

127. The truth hurts kiddo.

Michael Moore is no better than Jon Stewart or Bill Mahar, who also supported Nader in 2000.

[reggie the dog]

238. Clinton and Gore gave us NAFTA

that is reason enough for many working people to choose Nader in 2000. Clinton was a DLC third way democrat and his vp gore towed the line too. our choice was a republican with a D by their name vs an extreme right wing Republican (W) and Nader standing up for working people.

[tcaudilllg]

133. I support Michael Moore.

[Javaman]

207. oh ye of little information. you like to spew without info, don't you? it's glaringly apparent...

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/life-among-1

"Twenty-two years ago this coming Tuesday, I stood with a group of factory workers, students and the unemployed in the middle of the downtown of my birthplace, Flint, Michigan, to announce that the Hollywood studio, Warner Bros., had purchased the world rights to distribute my first movie, 'Roger & Me.' A reporter asked me, "How much did you sell it for?"

"Three million dollars!" I proudly exclaimed. A cheer went up from the union guys surrounding me. It was absolutely unheard of for one of us in the working class of Flint (or anywhere) to receive such a sum of money unless one of us had either robbed a bank or, by luck, won the Michigan lottery.

So I made some easy decisions back in 1989:

.snip.

2. Of the remaining $2 million, I decided to divide it up the way I once heard the folksinger/activist Harry Chapin tell me how he lived: "One for me, one for the other guy." So I took half the money -- $1 million -- and established a foundation to give it all away.

3. The remaining million went like this: I paid off all my debts, paid off the debts of some friends and family members, bought my parents a new refrigerator, set up college funds for our nieces and nephews, helped rebuild a black church that had been burned down in Flint, gave out a thousand turkeys at Thanksgiving, bought filmmaking equipment to send to the Vietnamese (my own personal reparations for a country we had ravaged), annually bought 10,000 toys to give to Toys for Tots at Christmas, got myself a new American-made Honda, and took out a mortgage on an apartment above a Baby Gap in New York City."

more at link...

-----------------------------------

I'm always amused by people who blame nader. If Gore had run a better campaign (he admits that himself), it wouldn't have been an issue. But to believe it was "all naders fault" is just blatantly amusing considering it was the supreme court who ruled that moron* won, not gore. It was nothing but a clear violation of the constitution by the right wing. On top of that, Gore won the popular vote and would have won the general election if the vote count had been allowed to go ahead in Florida. On top of that, it was Gore that ended things before the counts were finished, not nader not the right wing.

so, please, while I'm a zero fan of nader (other than his public advocacy), go peddle your revisionist history elsewhere, it's really tiring.

[Major Hogwash]

254. Moore supported Nader in 2000, you can't rewrite history.

That is just a fact of life.

[Javaman]

260. who cares?

last time I checked it was still a free country.

I find it amazing that you still choose to burn down Moore while he has done some really good things and has come out in support of the comman person. Yet, you still find fault. Truly amazing.

[Major Hogwash]

269. Moore said he was a Libertarian in an interview he gave a few months ago.

Just like Jon Stewart and Bill Maher, Michael Moore is an opportunist.
Those other 2 jackasses also supported Nader in 2000.
Maher famously referred to the 2000 race as the "Gush-Bore" campaign for President.
And Stewart referred to it as "Indecision 2000".

See, people (like you) always think that people like me weren't paying attention to what those 3 were saying back in 2000.
As they all played up to the populist theme of "both parties are the same".

Now when you say "who cares?" -- that's exactly what the kids said in 2000 that were influenced by listening to people like Moore, Stewart, and Maher.
They didn't even bother to vote.

Now, all of a sudden, it's a sacred privilege to Moore to vote.
Now, all of a sudden, he realizes that there are differences between both parties.

Who is the GOP party's hero? Reagan.
Who is the Democrat party's hero? FDR.

Does Moore really want to compare FDR to Reagan and tell me there is no difference between them?
Yet, that is exactly what Moore said -- clear up until 2003, when, all of a sudden, he found a pair of ballz (some people say they may have even been his own) and he said that invading Iraq was not such a good thing to do.

But, I don't take any of those 3 seriously.
They're on stage to make a buck.
While he complains about capitalism.
Oh, the hypocrisy drips, and drips, and drips.

[Javaman]

270. oh did he? prove it. nt

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

271. and then Mike lied about it in 2004

Claiming he withdrew his support for Nader a few weeks before the election, because Ralph campaigned in swing states.
Didn't happen.
There's video footage out there of Mike at Nader's DC Super Rally at the Staples Center - just two days before election day.
Mike backed Nader all the way in 2000, then, when the Dems courted him in 2004, he lied about it and smeared Nader, rather than admit his mistake.
And now Mike's back to the 'there's no difference in the two parties" line. Funny how that coincides with a sudden hipness in being independent. Mike just wants a piece of the action.
The guy's always been phony populist, charging $15,000 a night to speak to progressive student groups, and so on.
It's time people realize Michael Moore has a massive ego and is loyal only to Michael Moore, and maybe it's time to embrace leaders who aren't always pushing product.

[Major Hogwash]

273. True, he changed his story by then, but Moore was right about 9/11.

It was an inside job from the get-go.
Yet, Michael didn't have all of the information that he needed to make that documentary. So he made "Fahrenheit 911" instead and yet Bush was re-elected anyway.

Considering that the Bush White House withheld 10s of 1000s of documents from the commission that was set up by Congress to investigate it, you'd think that President Obama would have corrected that error the very first chance he got.

Unfortunately, handling 2 wars in 2 different countries and dealing with the worst American economy in 80 years was more of a priority for President Obama's administration. I don't know if a new Congress would have the guts to do an autopsy on the Bush administration's involvement in 9/11, but since we've already watched Katie Couric take a barium enema up the rectum and Ricky Lake's stomach staple operations on the tv, I think we could withstand watching a real Congressional commission grill Georgie Boy, Little Dicky, Condi, Colin, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, Feith, et al, right on tv.

That's the kind of reality tv that even I would watch!

[stillrockin]

82. Right again! I love you, Michael Moore!!!

[Enthusiast]

92. Kicked and recommended!

Die hard Obama supporters: Ignore this at your peril.

[RBInMaine]

96. Oh good plan. Stay home which helps elect RePUKES, then bitch even louder. Nutty and silly.

[NorthCarolina]

100. I have to laugh at the naysayers on this thread condemning Moore for speaking

the truth because it calls out Obama, and rightly so. Hope they know they are well in the minority. But hey, keep your head in the sand if that's where it's comfortable for you.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NorthCarolina]

118. LOL

Whatever.

[BrendaBrick]

107. Maybe its just about high time

that Obama come clean and address much of this and call for a prime-time State Of The Union address...(and in the old 'I Love Lucy' verbiage,...has some splainin' to do!)

[Lorien]

114. Moore is 100% correct. And until the majority of the people say "NO, NO MORE

BUSINESS AS USUAL!" Absolutely nothing will change and the repugs will keep controlling the agenda. The lesser of evil choice has worn thin; no one wants to vote for EVIL, period.

[Mr_Scarecrow]

116. Statistics?

It would be great to do a scientific survey regarding
Michael's claim.  Perhaps he could fund one.  If he's right I
don't like the odds of progressivism in our country. 

It's concerning to see the perceived blurring of lines between
Obama and the right-wing.  There will always be similarities
and strange bedfellows on some issues.  To me the differences
between him and the right are striking and profound.

Is it possible that once he took office, Barack learned things
that changed his mind and stance on certain issues?  That
nuanced his perspectives?  Is he not allowed to adjust his
positions based on new information?  Who doesn't do that
almost every day?  I'm much more averse to having a president
who doesn't ever change his positions on issues, no matter the
information presented.

[BrendaBrick]

124. I wonder (vacillate) about that myself, actually

between giving him the 'benefit of the doubt' and by that I mean that by being a bit of a 'newbie' (sort of speak, the experience of Biden aside) and not entrenched in the system, as it were, opted at first to surround himself (in part) with the 'players' (i.e. Geithner) in order to get into their heads and learn first-hand how it all REALLY goes down - you know? Whereby being dumb as a fox. I still have a hard time dismissing him altogether given his choice to be a community organizer rather than opting for a much more lucrative career - which he could have done.

At the same time though, I have other reservations that this may not be the case and he has in fact, duped the American public.

IN any event, I do think that it is up to him to start to come clean either way ~

[Marnie]

123. Right on Michael

Tell it like it is.

Obama takes his voters way to much for granted. That headache or busy day at work or the kids base ball game may be more important this time around.

[Mnpaul]

126. I don't blame them for staying home

I commend them for sticking to their guns. This is what America needs, more voters with a spine, willing to walk away from a bunch of politicians who fed them a big stinking pile of lies. Hurray for them! Personally, I am disgusted by almost all of the elected Dems in my state. Mark Dayton and Keith Ellison being two exceptions. Dayton showed us that if fight back immediately and fling the crap back at the Republicans, they soon change their tune and fall back in line with Minnesotan values. I am most disappointed at Franken for voting to extend the Bush tax cuts and signing another "free trade" agreement after rallying against both for years on his radio show. Franken compelled me to finally remove his Franken for Senate bumper sticker from my car. Klobuchar isn't much of a Democrat either failing to support even the public option.

I applaud Michael Moore for once again using his voice to point the finger at the true parties responsible for the losses in 2010. Big Eddie also does it well "do you know what capitulating to the Republicans gets you? It gets you Wisconsin"

[PoliticAverse]

130. Exit polls and 2008 vs 2010...

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/11/democrats_lost_big_because_you.html

http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/wdc/exit-polls-2010/index.html?SITE=INKEN&SECTION=HOME

[julian09]

135. If they didn't like what Obama accomplished in first 20 months

why didn't they vote out the obstructionists, that impeded everything he did. That would make too much sense. He never had the votes for single payer or public option, he went for what he could get at the time. They could make improvements over time. The jobs that were off shored was going on for years, and still is and americans are glad to buy those products. For those of you who will vote for the Dinos in 2012, blame Obama if nothing gets done thereafter. If this blog spent one hundredth the time going after the Dinos as they do Obama, maybe they will start to address the problem. Has anyone here noticed the democrats who voted against Obamas jobs bill? didn't think so. Are you going to send them back? Anyone notice Obama out on the stump for jobs, tax fairness, financial reform the last few months? Wouldn't know it reading this board.

[stillrockin]

144. Really ? You still think he works for us ?

[dennis4868]

148. Definitely!

Obama 2012...let's give him a functional congress!

[eilen]

209. Obama campaigned for obstructionists. nt

[progressoid]

241. "...going after the Dinos as they do Obama..."

To a lot of us, Obama is also one of those Dinos.

[Dutchmaster]

138. Heartily recommend.

[Douglas Carpenter]

140. knr

[WillyT]

141. K & R !!!

:kick:

[orbitalman]

142. I believe Michael Moore is right.

[big lu]

143. K&R

[pa28]

145. Michael Moore tells the truth and people are pissed off. As usual.

Granted this clip is not his best moment (hitting the sack early might have been a better option) but he's a national treasure with a habit of pointing his finger at unpleasant trends developed over the past 30 years. Hey, nobody said playing the role of Cassandra was easy.

The easy thing would be for him to pocket his millions and begin promoting the status-quo. He's refused to do that which only increases my respect for the man. WTG Michael.

[nebenaube]

146. he can go after the bankers and reschedule pot or congratulate his replacement... n/t

[clixtox]

157. Yup! N/T

[slay]

149. I know many people who did just that

i know he sure as hell didn't/doesn't motivate me to vote - luckily there were some local peeps i needed to vote for else i might have stayed home too. hope and change my ass - it was, and is, just more of the same. ugh.

[mistertrickster]

151. Yup. "I can't do anything because of Congress" gets old after awhile.

Great leaders MAKE things happen.

[Segami]

152. Its called ' Leadership ' and they lead by their own convictions.

[alp227]

153. thing is that young people need MOTIVATION to care about politics

because they expect politicians to deal with issues directly affecting them such as higher education or employment. When that doesn't happen they just go back to partying and their youth bubble. Spot on Mr. Moore. I am 20, have been registered since I turned 18, and have never missed an election. We need our educators to entice youth to be more proactive both in life and in civics.

[kimsarah]

155. and as a result,

Republicans gained control of legislatures in a number of states, giving them the right to redraw district lines to their advantage for the next 10 years, which is causing all the headaches today. Congratulations. An oversight? Or intentional? Or just plain old chance?

[davidthegnome]

159. Nail on the head

I suppose I'm of an age to still be one of those "young people" - except I did go out to vote. I know a number of people who didn't because as far as they could tell nothing had changed in a positive direction. They did not see results, they did not see action... change they could believe in.

Like Moore, I'll still vote for Obama because I think the alternative will be far worse. If there were a primary challenger, well.... but I highly doubt that there will be.

No, I'm not a big fan of this President's nor of any man I know of who's been President during my lifetime. I'm generally not too fond of politicians at all. Things have changed since 2008, that spirit of enthusiasm, hope - that faith that things could be made different has faded greatly.

I'm more jaded now than I was back then. I voted then because I believed in the people I voted for. I vote now in the hopes of electing the lesser of evils, to avoid the greater of disasters.

I vote democrat, but not always eagerly. I'll probably keep doing so until I'm gone, because... well, I don't think a real liberal would get very far in making changes in government these days - not without leading a massive popular uprising (non-violent, of course) and I don't see anyone getting up to lead it. I couldn't vote Republican and sleep at night, or manage to maintain my sanity.

Have you seen what they have to work with? The Republican Presidential debate? To think that such people are even considered (let alone elected) for higher office is downright shameful to me as an American.

[knixphan]

163. Legislative Branch Matters.

Young cats need to get that too.

[GreenTea]

164. Go Michael Moore - Hit 'em hard with the truth & facts!

[Norrin Radd]

170. Replacing Dean with Kaine had something to do with it, as well.

[UrbScotty]

171. The same Michael Moore who supported Nader in 2000?

Here's how one person reacted to another of Moore's recent diatribes: http://www.thepeoplesview.net/2011/10/thank-you-michael-moore-for-your.html

Well, as George W. Bush said, you really covered your ass on that one. Because, you know, you have principles - unlike us Obots and unprincipled pragmatists. We are so unprincipled that we don't think your "disgust" is more important than tens of thousands of Iraqi orphans and cripples. Maybe 100,000 civilian deaths, not to mention all the American men and women killed, maimed, and traumatized. But, hell "that's how disgusted the millions of us are". We think of those bodies floating down the street in New Orleans and we are too unprincipled to think: a small price to pay for Michael Moore's integrity. Voting for a protest candidate was worth it, and Mike, your understanding of political dynamics is so good you were able to confidently predict a Gore win anyways. You rock Mike - and thanks for still being here in 2011 to explain why President Obama doesn't measure up to your standards.

[Bluenorthwest]

199. The same Michale Moore who held rallies in 62 cities in 2004

at his own expense, mind you, with the goal of registering young voters and getting John Kerry elected. Moore did two such rallies with thousands of people here in Oregon, John Kerry never came to the State at all, Theresa did, but not John. Mike's rallies were the entire election excitement here.
My guess is that Mike and the Slacker Uprising registered more Democratic voters in 2004 than any other individual, he was our MVP.
How many cities did you visit in 2004 for Kerry? I ask because you are posting about Katrina, which happened after the election in which Moore put more effort into electing Kerry than Kerry did. So. What did YOU do in 04? How many new voters did you create? What did you do to prevent the second term of Bush?
The youth vote was the only group Kerry carried in 04. The 'youth' voted at the highest rate they had since 18 year olds were franchised.
Feel free to get educated and up to date on reality:
http://slackeruprising.com/about.php

[pecwae]

178. Agreed, agreed, agreed!

2008 brought a sense of hope for something new for our youth. Those getting politically involved for the first time were excited to be part of the extraordinary change coming to America. Now....

[yellowwood]

179. And Whom Shall We Blame?

For the fact that the nation voted to reelect George Bush in 2004?

Can't blame Obama for that.

The trouble is that the "Youth" were not around (as voting adults) for the eight years during which Bush was President. They have no idea of how 9/11 was used by the neocons to inflame the American conscieousness into military enthusiasm. Jesus Christ couldn't undo the mess that those eight years created.

[Bluenorthwest]

202. The 'youth vote' in 2004 was the largest youth vote since 18

year olds got the vote. Moore was a major factor in that turn out. Kerry strolled casually about, speaking in moderate terms. Moore came to two Oregon cities to rally for Democrats, John Kerry sent his wife here for an afternoon. Kerry never set foot in Oregon. To win, you have to work for it, Kerry did not do so. I always blame the loser for losing. Of course, the fix was in in some places, but Kerry should have been all over that as well....

[walerosco]

186. K & R

[eilen]

188. Informal poll among some young people I know

"2010 was not a real election"

"They are all assholes."

[catgirl]

228. Michael Moore speaks for the youth now????

This is one of the dumbest things I've heard MM say. The youth stayed home because Obama WASN'T ON THE BALLOT, like in 2008.
They will come back out to vote in the next election.

While I admire MMs work, he sure does say some stupid things from time to time.

[tavalon]

229. Welcome to the underside of the bus

Don't worry, the tire tracks fade with time.

[Poll_Blind]

236. Ha ha! Interesting how some are pissing up and down this thread as per usual. nt

PB

[Fantastic Anarchist]

243. Totally fucking true. n/t

[Name removed]

248. Deleted message

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