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TDPS: NRA Prevents Research on Effects of Guns, Their Head Lobbyist Says It's No Problem

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celtics23 Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-11 12:38 PM
Original message
TDPS: NRA Prevents Research on Effects of Guns, Their Head Lobbyist Says It's No Problem
 
Run time: 04:06
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4RO3IVT5ig
 
Posted on YouTube: February 04, 2011
By YouTube Member: MidweekPolitics
Views on YouTube: 309
 
Posted on DU: February 06, 2011
By DU Member: celtics23
Views on DU: 1289
 
From: www.davidpakman.com | Subscription: www.davidpakman.com/membership | YouTube: www.youtube.com/midweekpolitics
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donthebun Donating Member (122 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-11 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well if their head lobbyist is okay with it...
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tins0404 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-11 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. No surprise, we know what the research would show
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-11 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. This is true. They handicapped CDC from such studies...
more than a decade ago. Yet, anytime one asks about possible gun interventions, we are met with screams that "there is no evidence!" How progressive gun owners can support such a bullying tactic, is beyond me.

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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-11 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. And how did "they" handicap it? How about all the other thousands of researchers in the country?
Are all of them part of a secret conspiracy to suppress the research you want to see?

If you'd like research, there's ample studies out there, most of which do not support your preconceptions. One of the foremost experts on the subject is Gary Kleck, Professor of Criminology at FSU. (Also a lifelong liberal Democrat and ACLU member.) He started doing research on the subject many years ago, only to find that his own research refuted what he expected to see, and the soundness of his research impressed others as well:

"I am as strong a gun-control advocate as can be found among the criminologists in this country. If I were Mustapha Mond of Brave New World, I would eliminate all guns from the civilian population and maybe even from the police. I hate guns--ugly, nasty instruments designed to kill people. ...

What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator... I have to admit my admiration for the care and caution expressed in this article and this research. ...

Can it be true that about two million instances occur each year in which a gun was used as a defensive measure against crime? It is hard to believe. Yet, it is hard to challenge the data collected. We do not have contrary evidence. The National Crime Victim Survey does not directly contravene this latest survey, nor do the Mauser and Hart studies. ...

Nevertheless, the methodological soundness of the current Kleck and Gertz study is clear. I cannot further debate it. ...

The Kleck and Gertz study impresses me for the caution the authors exercise and the elaborate nuances they examine methodologically. I do not like their conclusions that having a gun can be useful, but I cannot fault their methodology. They have tried earnestly to meet all objections in advance and have done exceedingly well."

--- Marvin E. Wofgang, "A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed," Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology 1995, Vol. 86 No. 1.)
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-11 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. They absolutely DID handicap CDC..went to NRA congressmen
to pull funding from the Injury Control Center at CDC. This documented fact. Most of the best researchers in that group left shortly thereafter.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-11 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. N.R.A. Stymies Firearms Research, Scientists Say
Edited on Sun Feb-06-11 01:09 PM by hlthe2b
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/us/26guns.html?_r=1&ref=nationalrifleassociation

N.R.A. Stymies Firearms Research, Scientists Say
In the wake of the shootings in Tucson, the familiar questions inevitably resurfaced: Are communities where more people carry guns safer or less safe? Does the availability of high-capacity magazines increase deaths? Do more rigorous background checks make a difference?

Rich Addicks for The New York Times

Mark Rosenberg, former director of the National Center for Injury Control and Prevention, in his office in Decatur, Ga.


The reality is that even these and other basic questions cannot be fully answered, because not enough research has been done. And there is a reason for that. Scientists in the field and former officials with the government agency that used to finance the great bulk of this research say the influence of the National Rife Association has all but choked off money for such work.

“We’ve been stopped from answering the basic questions,” said Mark Rosenberg, former director of the National Center for Injury Control and Prevention, part of the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which was for about a decade the leading source of financing for firearms research.

Chris Cox, the N.R.A.’s chief lobbyist, said his group had not tried to squelch genuine scientific inquiries, just politically slanted ones.

“Our concern is not with legitimate medical science,” Mr. Cox said. “Our concern is they were promoting the idea that gun ownership was a disease that needed to be eradicated.”

The amount of money available today for studying the impact of firearms is a fraction of what it was in the mid-1990s, and the number of scientists toiling in the field has dwindled to just a handful as a result, researchers say.

The dearth of money can be traced in large measure to a clash between public health scientists and the N.R.A. in the mid-1990s. At the time, Dr. Rosenberg and others at the C.D.C. were becoming increasingly assertive about the importance of studying gun-related injuries and deaths as a public health phenomenon, financing studies that found, for example, having a gun in the house, rather than conferring protection, significantly increased the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.

Alarmed, the N.R.A. and its allies on Capitol Hill fought back. The injury center was guilty of “putting out papers that were really political opinion masquerading as medical science,” said Mr. Cox, who also worked on this issue for the N.R.A. more than a decade ago.

Initially, pro-gun lawmakers sought to eliminate the injury center completely, arguing that its work was “redundant” and reflected a political agenda. When that failed, they turned to the appropriations process. In 1996, Representative Jay Dickey, Republican of Arkansas, succeeded in pushing through an amendment that stripped $2.6 million from the disease control centers’ budget, the very amount it had spent on firearms-related research the year before.

“It’s really simple with me,” Mr. Dickey, 71 and now retired, said in a telephone interview. “We have the right to bear arms because of the threat of government taking over the freedoms that we have.”

The Senate later restored the money but designated it for research on traumatic brain injury. Language was also inserted into the centers’ appropriations bill that remains in place today: “None of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”

The prohibition is striking, firearms researchers say, because there are already regulations that bar the use of C.D.C. money for lobbying for or against legislation. No other field of inquiry is singled out in this way.

In the end, researchers said, even though it is murky what exactly is allowed under this provision and what is not, the upshot is clear inside the centers: the agency should tread in this area only at its own peril.

“They had a near-death experience,” said Dr. Arthur Kellermann, whose study on the risks versus the benefits of having guns in the home became a focal point of attack by the N.R.A.

In the years since, the C.D.C. has been exceedingly wary of financing research focused on firearms. In its annual requests for proposals, for example, firearms research has been notably absent. Gail Hayes, spokeswoman for the centers, confirmed that since 1996, while the agency has issued requests for proposals that include the study of violence, which may include gun violence, it had not sent out any specifically on firearms.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-11 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. The NY Times and Arthur Kellermann. Yeah, those are good sources on this subject.
You might as well cite Fox News and Sarah Palin for a factually accurate discussion on healthcare reform. Kellermann is famous for having claimed that if you owned a gun you were 43 times more likely to be murdered with a gun. Then when he got professionally trounced for basically making that number up out of thin air, he changed it to 2.7x, which was STILL debunked using his own research data.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x334436
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-11 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. You can find dozens of articles confirming the same...
Edited on Sun Feb-06-11 01:21 PM by hlthe2b
Denial of the truth seems to be part and parcel of the tactics on this.

Your statement shows you aren't serious about debate, the facts nor anything related. I will not be responding to your further for that reason.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-11 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. You find multiple studies by the same five or so authors, with the same flaws..
Branas, Kellerman, Hemenway, Azreal, Wintemute..

Branas has the most recent iteration of this tune- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=256837

September, 2009.

Gee, that's after the funding was supposed to have disappeared..

It suffers the same flaws- weak correlation of case and control:

However, compared with control participants, shooting case participants were significantly more often Hispanic, more frequently working in high-risk occupations, less educated, and had a greater frequency of prior arrest. At the time of shooting, case participants were also significantly more often involved with alcohol and drugs, outdoors, and closer to areas where more Blacks, Hispanics, and unemployed individuals resided. Case participants were also more likely to be located in areas with less income and more illicit drug trafficking (Table 1).


No indication was given as to whether the gun was carried legally or illegally, nor even whether or not the shooting was justified- ie, they compared a 35 year old white junkie who was shot by a cop (who happened to be carrying illegally at the time) to a 35 year old white guy in a similar neighborhood.

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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-11 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Moreover, Branas et al. "did not account for the potential of reverse causation..."
"...between gun possession and gun assault."

That's a quote from the paper itself, though it's oddly absent from the abstract and the press release. In other words, they didn't control for the possibility that subject who considered themselves likely to become victims of a criminal assault (e.g. because they were involved in the illicit drugs trade, in which business disputes are commonly resolved by homicide) armed themselves as a result.

Nevertheless, the authors were more than happy to disregard this fact when writing their conclusions.
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-11 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. I'm for gun regulation, but seriously, will ONE MORE study change anyone's mind? I don't think so.
It seems that the HUNDREDS of "studies" that have been done could be taken/disregarded anyway you want by either side of this issue.

I just don't see a way one more study (or a dozen more) will change anyone's mind on this issue at this time...
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russspeakeasy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-11 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. If only people kill people...why can't I have a hand grenade?
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Plucketeer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-11 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I want some RPGs
I'm tired of the neighbors turning around in our driveway! :grr:
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-11 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. You can have a hand grenade..
The process is rather arduous, but in most states, you can.

See the 1934 National Firearms Act.
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