TYT: Did Cheney Order The Torture To Get Bad Information?

[ihavenobias]

Run time: 04:23 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rcFQEeRbXg   Posted on YouTube: April 24, 2009 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: April 25, 2009 By DU Member: ihavenobias Views on DU: 2433

 

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[OhioChick]

1. K&R

:kick:

[Joanne98]

2. YES

[Karenina]

3. +1

[mix]

4. exactly right

TYT puts it all together...the torture employed came from the Chinese, Russian and North Korean communist states. Their sole purpose was to elicit confessions and create propaganda.

What were the efforts to link al-Qaida and Iraq but propaganda?

[Seldona]

5. Excellent point.

I was astounded when I learned that the 'techniques' we were using came straight out of a communist, Chinese made, torture manual on how to elicit false confessions.

Seems logical to me that if you want false confessions, you would use a manual that is proven to work. Sick to the point of making me literally nauseated, but logical.

[ihavenobias]

12. Yeah, they knew what they were doing.

That makes it worse than simple incompetence (although they were that as well).

[sam sarrha]

6. i heard the invasion of Iraq was based on torture information.. link>>

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090421/POLITICS03/904210436/Levin++Iraq+link+goal+of+torture
Levin: Iraq link goal of torture
He says Bush aides used interrogations to get data to justify invasion
Gordon Trowbridge / Detroit News Washington Bureau
Washington -- Senior Bush administration officials pushed for the use of abusive interrogations of terrorism detainees in part to seek evidence to justify the invasion of Iraq, according to newly declassified information discovered in a congressional probe.

[pleah]

7. K&R

[Quantess]

8. recommended.

[ejbr]

9. K & R n/t

[Jack Rabbit]

10. We needs more facts before we can take it to court

Nevertheless, I think that Suskind's theory is a distinct possibility.

At the very least, Cheney should be nailed for ordering torture. That much we have him on dead to right.

A reasonable person should be expected to know that waterboarding is torture and that torture is ineffective in getting real facts from one interrogated. However, it can be damned effective at getting someone to say what you want to hear.

If it can be shown that Cheney was aware of at what torture is effective, then we should have an open and shut case that the very act of invading Iraq was a war crime on its face. Even if it can't be shown, it would just take a little more work to hang the illegality of the war around Cheney's neck.

This should be done because never again should a free people be betrayed by their government in this way.

[Uncle Joe]

11. The more I think about it, this seems like the most logical explanation.

Cheney/Bush never wanted the truth, they wanted war with Iraq, they needed fig leafs and that's what this torture was all about.

I do hope there are records to Cheney's secret energy meeting with the energy corpse and that's opened to the public.

I can't help but believe Iraq came up in that meeting and I can't understand why that should have been so secret?

Thanks for the thread, ihavenobias.

[Juche]

13. This is actually pretty obvious

I admire anyone with the courage to put 2 and 2 together. However, there is always the risk that things like this will be so unpleasant to think about that people will just put their fingers in their ears and pretend it isn't happening. Luckily we have a dungeon to move posts like that to when that happens.

[MindMatter]

14. My first response is "Thank you, Mr. Obvious"

But then, I guess this hasn't been obvious to everybody. Or what was pretty obvious at the time of invasion may have become blurry with time. Cenk is right on point with this, and this is really where the discussion ought to be. It wasn't about protecting Americans. It was about justifying the invasion. EVERYTHING was about justifying the invasion.

Another thing that gets blurry with time is WHY they wanted to do this invasion. Looking back, it is tempting to say no reasonable person would have done this -- there was no way to come out ahead in this deal. But that's not what they believes. Cheney, Wolfy, Rummy, Perle, -- the whole stinking lot -- thought this would be their key to domination of that region. And I'm not talking about American domination of the region. I'm talking about the way for them to get their hands on vast riches for their corporate interests, Halliburton et al.

They still got tens of billions, but only a tiny fraction of what they thought they would get by controlling all the oil and all the oil distribution in the region.

[Juche]

15. Peak oil supposedly played a role in the war in Iraq

Supposedly part of the fear was that peak oil was going to hit in the 2020s or so, and when that happened the US had better control the Iraqi oil fields and have a strong military presence in the middle east. Keep in mind that the neocons wanted to invade Iran too. Iraq, because it was run by Saddam, has antiquated infrastructure and was not able to make the most of their 110 billion barrels of oil reserves.

Once peak oil hit in a decade, the US would be in a position of massive global hegemony since it would be able to influence what happened in places like China since China is rapidly becoming addicted to oil from foreign countries. It was supposedly an attempt to win the power war against countries like Russia and China in a decade when peak oil hit. And 9/11 made it all possible. Corporate profits and helping the rich get richer was a goal of the Cheney admin, I'm sure, but you can't overlook the role peak oil and global politics a decade from now played in Cheney's decision making. Like him or not, Cheney is a very intelligent person.

We invaded Iraq in 1991 because we didn't want Saddam controlling both Iraqi and Kuwaiti oil reserves. He was also massing troops on the border of Saudi Arabia. If Saddam controlled Iraqi, Kuwaiti and Saudi Arabian oil reserves, he would be able to hold the global economy hostage. So we pretended we gave a shit about Kuwaiti democracy, kicked Iraq out and won the war. The entire world got together for that war too. The world normally sits on its hands when something bad happens (think of Rwanda a few years later), but we all agreed Saddam must be kicked out of Kuwait.

So Cheney was probably trying to do what Saddam tried to do in 1991. Control enough of the world's energy reserves to influence the global economy and global politics. Only difference is Cheney is intelligent enough to know the real power comes when peak oil starts to hit.

[MindMatter]

17. You assume their motives were for the good of America

I don't believe that. These guys are some of the greediest, most unprincipled people who ever set foot on this planet.

The only reason America was involved was because they needed our army to carry out this scheme.

[Juche]

18. Right wing authoritarians have a 'burn the village in order to save it' attitude

People with high RWA personalities can be weird at first, but I do think Cheney did what he did for the 'good' of the nation. By good I mean that I think Cheney was worried that 10+ years down the road the US needed to be in a position of global power and hegemony against China and Russia, and he realized that controlling oil reserves when peak oil hit was a good way to prepare for that. One statement I have heard about right wing authoritarians is that 'they have high regard for the military, but view individual soldiers as disposable' which sounds like a contradiction, but that applies to the attitude right wing authoritarians have to the country as well. Cheney is probably willing to decieve, main and terrorize every person in America if he thinks it is in the best interest of his country. The country is irreplacable, but the inhabitants are meaningless to RWA thinkers just like the military is irreplacable, but soldiers are disposable.

Anyway, to me it has always been all connected. The energy task force, peak oil, 9/11, torture and Iraq. They are all tied to the same thing, a desire to prepare the US for the geopolitical world we will enter during peak oil by establishing a military presence in the middle east and either conquering nations there or replacing their governments with governments friendly to our geopolitical interests. These are people who think any means will justify the ends.

[20score]

16. Bingo! Now, the next question, which is also obvious. Why isn't Cheney in jail?

K&R.

I'm sending this out.

[Kablooie]

21. Cheney isn't in jail because we don't jail vice presidents--unless they are named Agnew.

[Enthusiast]

19. K&R

I believe it all comes down to greed. It all comes down to the greed of those that manipulated public opinion and cheerleaded for the Iraq War. They fell short of their goal but they made billions in the process and now they are using this windfall to spread misinformation about the Obama Administration.

[Kablooie]

20. Exactly what I was thinking. Now I don't have to start a new thread.

[baldguy]

22. For Cheney & the neocons from 1995 onward IRAQ was *ALWAYS* the main objective.

Al Qaeda & 9/11 was a sideshow - and an unimportant sideshow at that.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

23. Did Cheney Order The Torture To Get Bad Information?...I wouldn't be surprised.