Racism in Disney

[Cash_thatswhatiwant]

Run time: 05:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LibK0SCpIkk   Posted on YouTube: December 04, 2007 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: March 22, 2009 By DU Member: Cash_thatswhatiwant Views on DU: 19581

 
I'm not sure about the Jungle Book reference. Why are they assuming the monkey as being a stereotype for black people?

[izquierdista]

1. Not just Disney

Check out Warner Bros.' "Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarfs": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIP4WY8FhUk

If anything, it points out the extent of racial and cultural stereotyping that was common in the first half of the 20th century. It's as if they lived their lives in segregated neighborhoods and never got out to see what they had in common with different peoples. They just latched onto some physical attribute or behavioral observation and made it the subject of childish ridicule. The fact that they are deleting and hiding these clips out of shame shows that the world has matured, not completely, but it is making progress.

[Norrin Radd]

4. Facets had published a few volumes of racist toons on vhs in the 90's.

Probably how they're ending up on youtube. Here is a description of one of the tape's contents, if anyone is curious to find them on youtube. Interesting, and disturbing look at censored bits of history (though "Japoteurs" tends to be included in collected dvds of the public domain Fleischer Superman shorts)...

Cartoon Collection Vol. 5: Racial Cartoons

Sixteen titles: Bugs Bunny Bond Rally, Sing-a-long with Popeye, Plane Dumb, Porky's Hare Hunt, Mickey's Song, Little Black Sambo, Porky's Pooch, Joe Glow the Firefly, Porky's Movie Mystery, The Lone Stranger, Japoteurs, The Ballad of John Henry, Congo Jazz, I'll Be Glad When You're Dead, You Rascal You, Snap Happy, Jungle Jive and preview trailers and intermission trailers. B&W/Color. USA, 120 mins.

[Best_man23]

21. Another one

Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips. Contains nearly every racial stereotype for Asians.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfWdmpKhytM

Keep this in perspective; this cartoon was propaganda to promote anti-Japanese sentiment during WWII.

[KansDem]

72. I was always amused by Samuel Goldwyn's quote, "If you want to send a message,...

...call Western Union." He and his ilk produced some of the most blatant message-laden propaganda films and cartoons in Hollywood history...

[Grinchie]

12. Thanks for posting the link

I continue to be amazed at whats available on the YouTube.

I have not seen this, and from the Japs, Tire, Sugar and goods, I'd say it's around 1941+ or so.

Incredibly stylized for warner brothers. Amazing. So White might as well be a Pinup for the troops, considering the sexiness of the way she is drawn.

These historical items are priceless glimpses into the propaganda America was getting subjected to in those days.

[DutchLiberal]

32. Hiding/altering the clips shows how the world has *not* matured...

Apparently, we're not (deemed to be) mature enough to be able to watch those cartoons in full and to place them in their proper historical context? We have to deny they were ever made? Otherwise we might turn racist again or...?

[vaberella]

94. Of course Warner Bros. Was notorious. Elmer Fudd used to be Black

and fit the ugly stereotypes associated with Black peoples.

[DutchLiberal]

102. When was Elmer Fudd *ever* black??!

[vaberella]

107. Enjoy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P5jyyxCgIo

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/29682/

http://www.jhunewsletter.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticlePrinterFriendly&uStory_id=e10abfbe-a963-4cd0-996b-9b44edf4c866

[DutchLiberal]

109. That's not Elmer Fudd! That's a totally different character!

This one was created *after* Elmer Fudd had already been created.

[sakabatou]

2. Well, we definitly know that Disney was antisemitic

[Grinchie]

11. We do?

I never saw any indication of that, and I used to love Disney stuff before Eisner turned it all into crap.

[sakabatou]

16. Not in his films

but Walt was personally antisemitic.

[Behind the Aegis]

80. Actually, yes there was anti-Semitism in some of his cartoons.

"For the most part Disney doesn't appear to have had strong political views--his politics seemed to turn on whatever it took to keep his studio going. It's likely his interest in the German American Bund sprang from a desire to forge relationships with Germany for possible film distribution there. On the other hand, there was a lot of antisemitic feeling in the Disney studio. While no one can specifically attribute bias to Disney himself, Jewish people were ready fodder for the animators' gags and Disney approved every scene in every short the studio made. In one scene in the original version of "The Three Little Pigs," the Big Bad Wolf comes to the door dressed as a stereotypical Jewish peddler. Disney changed the scene after complaints from Jewish groups. They didn't catch them all, though. In the short "The Opry House" Mickey Mouse is seen dressed and dancing as a Hasidic Jew."

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1623/was-walt-disney-a-fascist

[DutchLiberal]

28. Was that why he employed Jewish artists at high levels?

Or make anti-nazi propaganda films?

[bliss_eternal]

49. It's a long-standing rumour....

...not sure where it came from, though.

I've seen lots of animators "joke" about it (including the SNL TV Funhouse people, and Family Guy).

Here's a book excerpt that attempts to dispel this rumour (from people that worked with him).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0757302319/qid=1237769031/ref=sib_books_pg?ie=UTF8&keywords=walt%20disney%20anti%20semitic&p=S0AX&checkSum=NKYdWDFlKEJ6Ewqam3GA565SLn05mx4zkhS6FhyQMgc%253D#reader-page

this one, claims to know where the rumour started (comments from Roy Disney and others):

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0520256190/qid=1237769031/ref=sib_books_pg?ie=UTF8&keywords=walt%20disney%20anti%20semitic&p=S05W&checkSum=NKYdWDFlKEL8u6Vh45cSzZZSdtodB8jfdCGHOuOJDu4%253D#reader-page

[DutchLiberal]

50. Unfortunately, the links don't work...

It says I have to log in first with my password and e-mail address.

[bliss_eternal]

53. Oh, I'm sorry...

here's the book links individually:

http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Walt-Howard-E-Green/dp/0786853794/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237769031&sr=8-2

http://www.amazon.com/Animated-Man-Life-Walt-Disney/dp/0520256190/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product


If you place,"Walt Disney, anti-semitic" into the Amazon search engine--it should show you comments (and page numbers)that reference "anti-semitism" w/in the books.

Each of these states he was not (anti-semitic, intolerant, etc.).
Though I'm also aware of at least one other book that claim he was. :shrug:

I can't imagine that in the days before Affirmative Action, if he was intolerant, he would employ minorities if he didn't have to. He employed Jewish and black artists (unheard of in those days). So again, I'm not sure where the rumour originates. One of the books above claim it was based in the conflicts W. Disney had with an individual who was attempting to organize the union (something Walt was firmly against).

[DutchLiberal]

55. Thanks for the links. I'll check my college libraries for those...

We have quite a collection on animation (I'm a film and television student). From Barrier, I've read his 'Hollywood Cartoons'; very insightful and honest history of the Disney Studio (among others). He tends to be too negative, though, when assessing cartoons, for my taste. The problem with most of those books on Disney is that they are overly praising. Walt Disney still is considered by most people as "Uncle Walt", and to try to make an honest portrayal of him isn't greeted with much approval by most people.

At least Barrier was honest about the strike that happened in 1941. The individual who was attempting to organize a union was Art Babbitt, one of his best animators. I don't know if he was Jewish. From what I've read, Walt thought of the strikers and unions as "communist conspiracies". After Babbitt left the studio, he discredited him all over the place by falsely claiming he was a communist. Walt also testified before the HUAC. And according to Marc Eliott's book 'Hollywood's Dark Prince', he also was an FBI informant. So there were definitely less pleasurable sides of Mr. Disney.

[bliss_eternal]

56. Oh yes....

...I'm aware of that. I spoke a bit about it in one of my other posts on this thread (how people who love his work, the parks, etc. have a tendency toward the "uncle walt" characterization and don't always want to see him as "a man"--warts and all). No one is perfect. Human beings are many shades of good, bad and grey.

I like the Koenig books, as he spoke to a lot of the employees for his books and got a different perspective.

http://www.amazon.com/Mouse-Tales-Behind-Ears-Disneyland/dp/0964060566/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_c

http://www.amazon.com/Mouse-Under-Glass-Secrets-Animation/dp/0964060515/ref=pd_sim_b_5

Learned a lot about the company changes of the 80's, the strikes, etc. Very interesting reads.

[Behind the Aegis]

79. Neither of which prove he wasn't anti-Semitic.

[DutchLiberal]

81. No, but it seems highly unlikely.

[Behind the Aegis]

85. Given you provided nothing in the way of proof, I don't think you can..

...claim it would "seem highly unlikely." The attitude during that time toward Jews was highly anti-Semitic, and often Jews were conflated with communism, for which Disney had a strong dislike. So, in actuality, it would seem more likely he was anti-Semitic, which would not have been uncommon.

[DutchLiberal]

103. You're reversing the burden of evidence. You claim he's anti-semitic.

You prove it.

[Behind the Aegis]

108. I never made such a claim. I simply showed your "proof" didn't discount the idea.

[Drunken Irishman]

3. Most of these came out back when racism was acceptable.

I don't think Disney today is, however.

[bliss_eternal]

8. Animation, like other films were entertainment for "whites."

As such, it was completely acceptable to create sequences that allowed audiences to get a "laugh" at the expense of "those hilarious minorities." :eyes: (not my sentiment of course, but clearly the accepted sense of animators, film execs, etc. of that day/time).

I'm actually rather fascinated (and simultaneously offended) by the history of animation.
You can always tell who the enemy was by viewing the cartoon. WWI animated shorts and Popeye frequently featured anti-asian sentiments.

Lena Horne has spoke of never getting film leads in MGM musicals. Only musical numbers that were easily edited out by the studio when the film's played in the south.

The Disney of today kind of cracks me up.
It's like they are haunted by that dark (no pun intended) past, and constantly make an effort to overcome. I applaud their efforts to be "inclusive" these days.

[Cirque du So-What]

10. Is Aladdin contemporary enough?

The character of Aladdin was modeled after Tom Cruise, but check out the swarthy features of Jafar, the villain. The good guy gets drawn 3-4 shades lighter and speaks with an American accent. The bad guy's much darker, speaks a nearly-unintelligible faux Arabic accent, and has outsized lips and nose. BTW, isn't Aladdin just as Arabic as Jafar?

[Droopy]

14. That's incredible

I don't watch Disney movies now days so I've never noticed that kind of stuff in their recent work. I appreciate you pointing it out.

[Cash_thatswhatiwant]

15. They look about the same color in the movie to me.

maybe i missed it. jasmine's father had an accident, didn't he? :shrug:

i used to love that movie :/

[Drunken Irishman]

18. That photo is pretty misleading.

The photo of Jafar is easily taken from the movie itself, but the Aladdin photo looks more like a publicity photo than a movie still.

And of course Jafar's features are evil, he is supposed to be evil. Every Disney movie, the hero is a hunk and the villain is ugly and scary looking (no matter what the cultural context of the movie).

His look is very similar to Captain Hook (white):



Or Judge Claude Frollo from The Hunchback of Notre Dame (French):



As for the accent, I can't remember.

But what about white villains who are drawn to look very shady (and not in color)?

[iamthebandfanman]

20. yup.

i just wish theyd stop stereotyping parrots.

[Lorien]

23. Thank you. The top one is even one of my scenes

Michael Surrey was the lead animator on that one. :thumbsup:

[jmondine]

67. "Try me!"

Excellent.

[Cash_thatswhatiwant]

57. thank you

:thumbsup:

[alphafemale]

110. First character that pic reminded me of was Cruella DeVille

If the villains aren't ugly how else are we supposed to know they're villains?

[Lorien]

22. Sorry, but I worked on the character of "Aladdin" in that film

he *IS* as dark as Jafar. You were very careful to select a scene from the cave of wonders where he's highly lit and that can't be seen. Yes Jeffery Katzenburg wanted him to look like "an Iraqi Tom Cruise". He told me this himself, so I had photos of both Iraqi teenagers AND Tom Cruise on my desk (Katenberg was wooing Cruise for a project at the time, so this was a way to complement him) on my desk as reference while I worked. Jafar was designed by Andreas Deja, the very talented animator behind "Scar" in the "Lion King" (notice a resemblance?) AND a gay man who is extremely liberal and heavily involved in civil rights/ human rights issues. I can't tell you how pissed off it makes me that you would accuse him of racism. He's one of the most decent human beings that I've had the pleasure of working with. Everyone on the project was using the caricatures of Al Hirshfeild as a basis for the style of the film, and some characters *are* more "cartoony" than others, but that has more to do with the natural drawing styles of the animators assigned to those characters than anything else. Glen Keane the lead animator behind "Aladdin" has a very realistic drawing style (his follow up character was the lead in "Pocahontas"). NONE of us are racists, we're just a group of artists who enjoy drawing and like to entertain children. There is no nefarious agenda here.

[Cash_thatswhatiwant]

58. I'm 21 and grew up on Aladdin.

It is one of my top 3 favorite Disney movies. Everyone I know around my age LOVES Aladdin, and from what I can tell, never drew anything like that at all. Thank you for helping to make such a classic for my generation. I don't even think movies are as enjoyable as they were in the 90s when I was growing up.

[Lorien]

60. Oh my, now I feel old!

I've been working for Disney only one less year than you've been on earth, lol! But thanks for your kind words about our film. We were wondering how kids who were old enough to enjoy it then would feel about it when they got older. I always hoped that you all would have the same fond feelings for it that people of my generation had for 101 Dalmatians. :hi:

[Cash_thatswhatiwant]

62. We do. Talk about Disney to people my age and our eyes light up, lol.

I think everyone my age just loved the Disney movies we grew up on like the Lion King, Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, Mulan, etc.

Was Anastacia a Disney movie? I loved that movie too. Again, just know that we do get the same feeling out of the Disney movies we grew up on!

[Lorien]

64. Thanks Cash_that'swhatIwant!

Anastasia was actually done by Don Bluth's studio, though he worked for Disney back in the '70's.

Funny thing; my Inbetweener on "The Rescuers down Under" and "Beauty and the Beast" just turned 40 two days ago-and he was your age when we first started working together! We both kind of had a mutual freak out about that (thankfully neither of us has aged that much). He's a feature film director now. Time always goes by much faster than you think it will....*sigh*

[Cash_thatswhatiwant]

68. I've watched the older movies like Lady and the Tramp, and newer movies that are done

with pixar. Nothing compares to the 90s disney movies imo. But maybe I'm just biased :).

Can you tell me is Pixar the animation-wing of Disney now? Or is it a separate company?

[Lorien]

78. Well that's a nice thing to say!

"Lady and the Tramp" and "Bambi" are still my favorites, but I guess that that's because I saw them at an age when that type of film is really appealing to me. I honestly haven't seen any of the films that I worked on in the 90's since they were released (by the time they hit theaters I was pretty sick of them). I recall a big debate that we had during the production of "Aladdin" over Iago the parrot saying "NOT"! We KNEW that the saying would date the movie like a lot of the phrases in "The Jungle Book" had dated that film. But in the end we decided that it didn't hurt the Jungle Book, so it wouldn't hurt Aladdin either, so I think it ended up in the final version.

Pixar is a part of the Disney company, but Disney Feature animation is a separate department. "Bolt" was produced by Disney Feature animation, which has an entirely different set of animators and staff-though John Lassiter oversees both. I suppose that at some point the digital feature animation department will be absorbed into Pixar but that probably won't happen for a few pictures at least. Hopefully the Frog Princess will be a big enough success that the traditional animation department can be back permanently as "Disney Feature Animation". Right now there are NO other 2D projects in the works, so the entire Frog Princess staff will face layoffs when the film wraps. So keep your fingers crossed for them; America doesn't need 600 more unemployed people on the streets!

[Cash_thatswhatiwant]

90. Hopefully if the Frog Princess does well, and they see that hand-drawn can still be

successful. youre involved with the frog princess also?

[Lorien]

96. Hoping to be in a few weeks. Business has been lousy lately

I'd rather not do clean up for $110 a foot (ends up being about $10 an hour-or less, depending on the number of characters), but if they have some extra to farm out then I'll take it. My usual clients are doing little to nothing these days. :-(

[Cash_thatswhatiwant]

115. I hope everything works out for you and your clients!

[jberryhill]

111. Free "Song of the South"!

It kills me that Disney uses music from the film in their audio releases, and characters in the theme parks, but it's been years since children were allowed to know where that music and those characters came from.

Like anything, it is a product of a time and place, and a part of American culture.

[roody]

91. I still do not care for their values.

[DutchLiberal]

104. ...

[ccharles000]

5. I don't get the Jungle Book reference either

[Divine Discontent]

6. I agree, I think the JB reference was reaching to say the least, as the apes and monkeys looked just

like apes and monkeys. However, being a Disney cast member, there are very few black people in entertainment at the parks, it might just be coincidence or blacks in general aren't trying out in the mass numbers that whites/latinos are auditioning, but I literally can only think of 2 people who perform any type of singers or attendants (the princes with no names who dance on stage) who are black, and that is out of hundreds of people. Disney has long been accused of not having many face characters (as opposed to fur characters like Goofy, Mickey, etc) who aren't white, perhaps in the near future they will be adding some more black characters. In the parks, over half the cast is black, latino, asian, and I'd say about 1/3 is white.

In July we were told we're getting President Barack Obama at the Hall of Presidents, as an animatronix life size figure. People will be there in large groups when that happens!

This video does prove to me that for a long time Disney catered to racist precepts for accepted and expected 'entertainment'.

[bliss_eternal]

9. The most I ever saw in a Disney show....

...was for Lion King parade. I knew people that went over and over, amazed to see that many people of color in a Disney parade. lol.
Another "high point" for performers of color was The Mulan parade.

I used to peruse the trade papers from time to time, I know they were desperate for performers of color for the Aladdin show (at DCA). Not sure why they weren't attracting many people. I'm guessing that Disney's rep for low pay, benefits and poor treatment of their cast members and performers was part of it. Amusement park performance is grueling work for a performer. The socal park doesn't offer nearly as much as some of the other Disneyland parks and resorts do to the entertainers. (Just what some entertainer friends have shared w/me) :shrug:

For example, some I know who worked at Universal studios entertainment loved it there. They made decent money, and could take time off to audition outside of that job. Which is pretty decent for an amusement park. I knew a young lady who almost quit performing for Disney, they wouldn't let her off with several weeks notice, for some reason. :shrug: I'm shrugging, as this is second hand info. for me--so take it for whatever that's worth--since it didn't happen to me personally.

[Divine Discontent]

31. LOL! yes, good point, you see the LK show & you think WOW look at the diversity in entertainment!

Good point. There's only a small percentage (guessing totally, maybe 15%) of entertainers at Disney that are the higher (happy) paid staff - the rest make 8-9. The Teamsters & SEIU unions had to cave in, supposedly, 5 or so years back and give Disney a whole reduced benefits package for cast, and so salaries are horrible. Disneyland starts out around 9 I heard, and WDW at 7.30+ up.

[bliss_eternal]

36. My heart goes out to the cast members...

(within the parks)...it's NOT an easy job. (I'm guessing based on your earlier responses you are or have been).
The cm's having to wear the heavy costumes should get combat pay....and from what I've seen, so should some of the other cm's.

My husband and I have seen people do and say some hideous things to cm's in the park, and wonder where their manners are--or if they just fly out the window the second they park in the Disney lot. :shrug:

The numbers you provide are so interesting. Especially when one factors in the comparative cost of living for both states (Florida vs. California).

I didn't mean to imply that the Disney corp. of today is NOT diverse.

Quite the contrary in my opinion. As I said somewhere above, the Disney of today (post Walt) IS inclusive and diverse in regards to it's big screen features--animated and live action. The Disney Channel has shows featuring african american and asian, young women in lead roles. :thumbsup:

There are lots of castmembers of color seen in the parks, today. The parades of today feature people of color--gay, straight, etc. The parks have special days celebrating diversity--gay days, a goth day, dca has a cinco de mayo celebration. None of this would have been the case when Walt was around--different times, of course. The company of today makes the effort to be inclusive.

My initial point, was merely that 'post Walt,' Mulan and the Lion King were a big deal for featuring so many people of color in a Disneyland park parade (at one time).

I've read some of the Disney expose books (Mouse Under Glass, etc.) They make for interesting reading.
No one is perfect, but I can understand that many have idealized Walt and frequently confuse him w/what he created--because they love his work so much.

At the same time, I've learned the parks under him were safer (he insured safety checks for all rides, maintained consistency regarding who repaired and checked the rides regularly, paid the techs well, etc.) At one time, Disneyland was considered the safest amusement park in the states, because of Walt's efforts. All of that was dismantled when he passed (to save money). Castmembers of those days speak of good pay, job security, benefits, etc. (also dismantled when he died). On the other hand, there was also a strike while he was in charge. :shrug: Broke his heart, and the animators--they loved him, and he thought of them as 'family.'

:hi:

[Divine Discontent]

44. WD cracked a hard whip but was just proud of his creation I would say

yes, I'm cast. I've seen little kids and some adults literally poke the eyes out of characters and such. The poor behavior is rather shocking - somehow - people literally go into fantasy world and don't even think we're real. And I've heard SEVERAL people in the Safari trucks say things like "I can't believe they can make the animals look so real!"

best...

[Grinchie]

13. Disney is hard to work for, they bargain really hard

and pay peanuts.

As far as the worker not being able to quit, unless she had a contract that explicitly states otherwise, California is an At Will Employer state. Meaning they can fire you for no reason, at any time, and you can quit for any reason at any time.

It's been that way for a long time, at least 10 years that I can recall

[Divine Discontent]

29. 7.30 for most WDW cast, up to 8.25 for some to start, the entertainers in shows on the castle stage

& in other parks like Hollywood Studios (Beauty & The Beast and such) get about 13 an hour, and after 6 years or so you'd be around 16-18. That's decent, however, they should ALL be making 12+ an hour if they wear costumes or are face characters, as those are tough jobs (the fur ones at least) and the attendants managing everything should be making 10+ to start, and it's shameful that people working at Pirates, Space Mtn or Haunted Mansion make 7.30 to start. What a horrible pay scale - the union needs to throw it's weight stronger and harder - Disney is a profitable company and they take advantage of the cast - also - they pay International people even LESS - so that's why it seems half the cast is from other countries in every park - they give them like 6, I'm guessing....

:mad:

[bliss_eternal]

39. Amusement parks deserve combat pay, imo.

What I've seen...:scared: ...but particulary the Disneyland staffers.

All these people have this "perception" of Disny magic. :eyes: Pixie dust, cartoon animals scampering happily at their feet and all that. As such, they use it as an excuse to demand perfection from the castmembers offering little humanity in exchange. I've seen horrible behavior at that park (from guests). Whatever the cm's make, it's NOT enough--they deserve considerably more.

I speak of the last time I was there. It's been quite a while. Didn't want to risk crossing picket lines during the threat of the last hotel and restaurant workers strike...they too deserve combat pay from what I've seen.

[Divine Discontent]

46. exactly!

when you're not making a living wage and you're at the happiest place on Earth and entertaining the world - you should be making a living wage. I do not, and have to subsidize through other means, the bills I need to pay. The few times I have serious talks with guests who I see several times, and they ask about pay in considering for themselves or their kids, if they should work there, they cannot believe the meager wages - and what cracks me up is that some idiots - yes, idiots - have the nerve to say - 'if it's not enough, get a different job' - sorry, the largest employer in the area pays the least - how is that the fault of the people who need work, also, they make huge profits - and therefore should be giving more to their staff. There's plenty of perks if you're willing to give THEM money (discounts on travel, gifts, restaurants), but when you make 250 a week - that's funny to tout as something we should be thrilled about having! We cannot even sell the tickets they give us each year without getting fired - we should be allowed to do with them as we NEED.

[bliss_eternal]

65. It's frustrating to see.

In and Out Burger's employees make $10.00 an hour. Why are fast food workers making more than people that represent a company that has a huge franchise, parks and resorts around the world, and more products on the market than I have time to list?

I'm really not understanding why Disneyland's socal park can't treat the cm's better by offering living wages, benefits, etc. Why other amusement parks pay better, when they don't have as big of a company as Disney at all?

:shrug:

[DutchLiberal]

82. How things have changed since the days of Walt and Roy...

[BuelahWitch]

77. Louis Prima, who played King Louie, was a jazz/pop artist

From what I understand from the "Making of" documentary, the artists modeled the monkeys and their movements after Prima and his band. Prima was NOT black, but he's not as well known as he was when JB was done in the late '60s.

[Number23]

86. The style of dancing that the monkeys were doing is unquestionably modeled

on a popular style of black dancing at that time. Think Cab Calloway.

[bliss_eternal]

7. ....because it was.

Anyone not aware of the stereotype of black people as monkeys or apes, only need to do a little research. The internet is filled with references.

There is also a rather long and old history of animation utilizing such stereotypes.
Think back to pre-civil rights days--when segregation was law. The people movies were made to appease were....(ahem)...caucasian americans. Animation were the short, comic sequences created to entertain before the main feature. As such most of the animated features were filled with racist stereotypes. Because of course, that's why 'beige, brown and black' people were created...to entertain white people. :eyes: :sarcasm:

An example:
http://animatedfilms.suite101.com/article.cfm/nine_most_racist_disney_characters

also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censored_Eleven

I grew up in the pre-"pc" times. I recall seeing many cartoons that are no longer aired, (or aired but the offensive parts are now edited). I know all too well what the stereotypes look like, what the references are, which animals are used to depict which groups and how.

I understand that many DU'ers don't have a frame of reference for this information, particularly if you are not part of a historically ethnic minority group. Those that didn't grow up w/elders in your lives that were aware of the meaning of such references, to explain them.

[Drunken Irishman]

19. .

[Number23]

87. Exactly. My first response to this thread was "is this actually news to people??"

But now that I'm into it, I have to say that this is one of the most interesting DU threads I've read in a long time.

[iamthebandfanman]

17. what makes disney different

than any of the other entertainment companies preww2 and right after?

im pretty sure lots of film companies stereotyped chinese and japanese people...

i hafta say tho, i dont see anything wrong with the siamese cats. lol.

[Lorien]

24. Pretty funny since their first "stereotype", the Villian in "Mulan"

was designed and animated by a Filipino man (Pres Romanillos).

[Lorien]

25. I guess the Disney bashers will have a field day reading racism into our

current project:





http://disney.go.com/disneypictures/princessandthefrog/

[Drunken Irishman]

26. She's not black enough.

[Lorien]

27. Just like our President, lol!

;-)

[iamthebandfanman]

97. whatever!

its the frog thats not froggy enough!

why do frogs gonna be princes? cant they be a princess?
sexist.

[Lorien]

106. In this case they're both

;-)

[EmilyAnne]

114. The Russian version of this fairy tale actually does have the roles reversed. The frog is kissed by

a prince and turns into a princess.

[DutchLiberal]

35. I have seen people complain on the internet that Prince Naveen should've been black, too.

They think it's cowardice on Disney's part to not make Naveen black. On the other hand, there are people who are outraged that Tiana isn't called 'Maddy' anymore and she's not a chambermaid anymore, complaining Disney caved to political correctness.

In short, Disney is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

[Lorien]

41. The NAACP didn't like the name "Maddy"

even though it was historically correct and Tiana is not. There were a few wealthy black families in New Orleans back then-just about the ONLY place that there were well heeled black families in America then. Can't comment on Naveen-that would be violating company confidentiality agreements. ;-)

[bliss_eternal]

43. Wow...

...interesting. I didn't see that complained about. :(
That definitely would place Disney in a no win situation.

[bliss_eternal]

38. omg...

...the way the frog is puckering is so funny!
:spray: (he's too cute). The way she's looking at him...:rofl:

I thought Disney recently also created the first black fairy, who was featured in the Tinkerbelle movie (released on dvd). Or did I misread my Disney info blast?

The fairy is adorable, too--if you had a hand in her Lorien, nice work!
:applause:

[Lorien]

42. No hand in either, but yes, there is a black fairy in the Tinkerbell films

those were outsourced overseas, though pre-production was done on the West coast.

[bliss_eternal]

45. Sorry to hear that...

(they were outsourced). :(

Thanks for the response.

[jmondine]

47. Congrats on your new feature!

It's been such a long time since Disney has green-lighted an original, theatrical hand-drawn feature. It must be like a breath of fresh air to you. Isn't it ironic that John Lasseter, who's been accused of ending the age of hand-drawn animation, is the one actually driving its return on the Disney board? Oh, and Andreas Deja is indeed a nice person. I met him, along with Marc Davis, at a Milt Kahl tribute about 20 years ago. Still have the autographs.

Okay, on to the subject matter. Jeez, where to begin...

The Jungle Book reference is totally off. Baloo and King Louie are voiced by Phil Harris and Louis Prima, both famous jazz singers, who regularly used scatting in their live acts. Neither were African-American, and both were using their normal singing and speaking voices in their performances.

The tent building scene in Dumbo has been artificially brightened. As originally shown, the workers are only seen as silhouettes in a rainstorm at night, and not prescribed any "race" at all. If they're supposed to be black, then why do the singing voices have no ethnic accent whatsoever?

Latinos are violent because Panchito is trigger happy? Then how do you explain Joe Carioca, in the very same clips, "armed" with an umbrella? The whole point of Panchito's outfit was to make him similar to an American cowboy, which at the time was a very positive association.

The caption about the clips in Fantasia being removed in "the latest DVD release" is very misleading. There has only been one DVD release of Fantasia. The clips, as shown, have been removed from the film for decades now, going back at least to the film prints shown in the 1970's. The clips were partially restored, with the racist images cropped out, for the original VHS and laserdisc release.

Yes, the images are racist, as are the other racial stereotypes shown. Ironically, many of the images in this montage are intercut with live action clips from other studios, and yet there's no mention in the header of "Racist" Warner Brothers, Paramount, or MGM. Fantasia was released in 1940, Dumbo in 1941 etc... Racial stereotypes were part of the popular humor of the time, for better or worse. Every major Hollywood studio is guilty of it, as is every vintage cartoon studio.

I'm not saying that this makes these stereotypes acceptable or even excusable. They were as wrong then as they are now. I do think it says something positive that as a culture we find them so much less acceptable on a gut level. This gives me hope. What chaps my hide is how Disney is so often singled out, as if they are somehow worse than the rest of Hollywood, or had some sort of sinister motivation in including these characters. That, and the implication that this somehow negates any of the artistic achievement, emotional impact, or sense of wonder that these classic films often exude and inspire in those of us who are fans of vintage animation.

[Cash_thatswhatiwant]

59. I personally cannot wait for this movie! nt

[DutchLiberal]

30. I really hate it when people without any knowledge of film history pretends they're 'experts'...

It doesn't make it right to see the crows in Dumbo or Sunflower in Fantasia, but the fact of the matter *is*: that was done in Hollywood at that time. And actually, Disney was not quite as bad as other studios. I mean, compare those examples to Bob Clampett's Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarfs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9x3PZM8vfA

Besides, only about one-third of them are actually racist (by today's standards); the rest are comic exaggerations.

So Shan-Yu can't be a villain in Mulan because that's racist? But all the people in the film are Chinese! So one of them is the villain. That makes sense, right? The person who made the video conveniently leaves out that the Chinese girl Mulan saves an entire kingdom...

The Indians in Peter Pan are not so much racist, as they resemble the image little children have of Indians. We all played 'cowboy and indian' when we were little kids, right? But I can see why that's offensive to some people. Apparently, Disney did, too, because they're not in the sequel.

But to call Panchito an example of racism...? Or the Chinese cat in The Aristocats? That's just *looking* for something to be offended about. And that the person thinks King Louie and the apes stand for African Americans says more about himself than it does about Disney...

[Drunken Irishman]

33. Wow, Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarfs is just...wow.

[DutchLiberal]

34. I think it's hilarious, though.

It's just funny. I'm a fan of old school animation, like the Warner Bros. shorts. The drawings alone are hilarious, and then the gags are good, too. Character designs are inventive. It swings. Yes, enough to enjoy there. It's still racist. But the cartoon itself is funny.

[bliss_eternal]

40. Exactly.

This is primarily the sort of thing I was referencing in my post above (that you kind of responded to with a "."). lol. More so than the Disney of late (i.e. crows in Dumbo, monkeys in jungle book, etc.) The Disney references are tame in comparison, though part of the same 'animal,' so to speak.

The wiki link about the Censored Eleven is more informative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censored_Eleven

[jmondine]

48. I've actually seen even worse from the Walter Lantz studio

As well as some old Tom and Jerry's, not to mention the black and white cartoons from the 1930's.
Oh, and the anti-Japanese cartoons from WWII... ack!!!

[bliss_eternal]

51. Tom and Jerry....

...remember the maid? The way she talked and all that was shown of her were the legs, sometimes her hands? But she was distinctly and unmistakably "southern black." (sigh)

I still recall the ones (not shown anymore) where Tom blows smoke in Jerry's face, and places him on a hot frying pan. Jerry, w/smoke on his face now appears to be in "black face" (complete with ligher puckered lips, and large round eyes). On the hot pan, he starts to tap dance.

[DutchLiberal]

52. I still love the classics.

[bliss_eternal]

54. If I hear my husband laughing alone in our livingroom...

...chances are he's watching "boomerang"...and Tom and Jerry is on. Or Tex Avery, or Looney Toons classics--but usually it's Tom and Jerry (sanitized of course). ;)

Though we're close in age, so he remembers the same eps. I do.
I'm still sad that Disney caved and took some animator (slightly hidden) gags out of their features (like Who Framed Roger Rabbit, the Rescuers, etc.)

[Cash_thatswhatiwant]

61. Tom and Jerry, they used to show the black maid on cartoon network /nickelodeon

growing up. then i remember they changed the audio, but :here are the old ones http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWa1vmjSOb8

[bliss_eternal]

37. Good example...

...I believe that one is one of the Censored Eleven.

I linked to the wiki about it above.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=287347&mesg_id=287365

Whoopi Goldberg introduces (and discusses) them and the historical context for the dvd of the Golden Age of Looney Tunes.
(Just fyi, if you haven't seen it. I have).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looney_Tunes_Golden_Collection:_Volume_3

[Cash_thatswhatiwant]

63. This one is even worse. Black people are portrayed as lazy do-nothings.

They are also obviously drawn to resemble monkeys, with the exception of the light skinned woman, who is drawn in an attractive way and nice way, much differently from everyone else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8Qa7wGWkB4

[boston bean]

70. most definitely racist

but less noticeably sexist too.

[DutchLiberal]

83. Disney and even Clampett's cartoon are tame in comparison.

[empyreanisles]

95. Ugh. I need to shower after seeing that horrible cartoon. (n/t)

[annabanana]

112. good lord!. . . . . .n/t

[Confusious]

66. OH Please!!

Yes, they did and they were. It was the times. Maybe you should go back in time and tell everyone how wrong they were.

Are you trying to say racism still exists because those movies still exist? Should we destroy them?

Or maybe they should be left the way they are as a monument to how far we've come and how far we have to go.

Forgetting is worse then remembering.

As far as the Asian in the movie, the big guy. Chinese people REALLY had those sorts of mustaches. The Siamese cats just sing a song, which I don't remember, but they were mean. I don't remember any mean Asian stereotype. Just the nice detective one or the overly polite pushover one.

The crows in dumbo I thought were a couple of white guys. Guess I was wrong.

[noiretextatique]

73. blah, blah, blah 1

eom

[Onceuponalife]

69. Oh good grief!

The PC police have invaded my internets again.

[TheEuclideanOne]

71. Yeah, I have to agree there

I think that these are all reaching. Apparently somebody had too much free time on their hands. All of the people with the "Holy Cow, there is a cartoon character that is black colored and is dancing" attitude need to find work, find a hobby or at least find something to take up their time so they are not creating more YouTube videos.

[noiretextatique]

75. 3 in a row

eom

[DutchLiberal]

84. You don't know what you're talking about, so you are the one who needs to stop babbling...

There IS racism in some of those films. Not all the examples shown are forms of racism, but, yes, the crows in Dumbo and Sunflower, the black centaur in Fantasia are. If you can't see that, you need to educate yourself on both black history and film history.

[TheEuclideanOne]

92. When I read your reply, all I see is "blah blah blah"

Just sayin. Sadly, the time wasted on this thread is time I will never get back. I think that I am worse off for even replying to your comment. If it makes you feel any better..... okay, you are an expert on racism in cartoons. I will give you that. The only downside to holding that title is that, well, nobody cares.

[DutchLiberal]

100. Well, if you don't care, stop wasting your time and MINE, too.

[iamthebandfanman]

98. that mite be so

but why is disney thrown up on the cross when there are tons of other movie studios who did the same in their past?

[DutchLiberal]

101. I don't know, honestly. I was not the one singling Disney out.

But I want to reverse the question: shouldn't we be able to discuss racism in Disney films, even if there were tons of other movie studios doing the same, or worse? The fact that Disney wasn't alone doesn't make it better. But you're right, we should place it in historic context, and that's what I've been trying to do all through this thread.

[noiretextatique]

74. blah, blah, blah 2

eom

[noiretextatique]

76. this was a very apartheid-like society

in the not so distant past. i don't think younger people realize how segregation and white supremacy permeated every aspect of society. a study of the culture of the time, advertising, film, etc., gives a frighteningly clear glimpse of just how bad it was. sure...those old racist cartoons are amusing as hell, but when they were made, black people were still consgined to colored wate rfountains and the back of the bus. most black women could only find employment as domestics. lynching was still legal in some states. yep...those cartoons are a hoot.

[Number23]

88. "i don't think younger people realize how segregation and white supremacy.."

...permeated every aspect of society."

And some not so younger ones too, eh Noire?? :) I don't believe for a second that denial is only assigned to the young.

[annabanana]

113. Everyone swam in this water... and, like fish, couldn't see it

until the swamp was drained a bit...

[ingac70]

89. King Louie in JB was white guy.

Louie Prima talked that way.

[vaberella]

93. Oy...start with Dumbo and work your way down. n/t

[DutchLiberal]

105. Don't forget 'Fantasia' (1940) with the black centaur.

[Taverner]

99. Yes, all very racist. But context is still important here

And can I say Disney simultaneously liked and hated Jews? He was a pretty mixed up guy - none of which excuses him of his racist depictions of anyone