CNN: Voting Machines Switching Votes in West Virginia

[Hissyspit]

Run time: 02:53 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICl-bI927rM   Posted on YouTube: October 22, 2008 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: October 22, 2008 By DU Member: Hissyspit Views on DU: 2261

 
CNN The Situation Room - Oct. 21, 2008.

[ecstatic]

1. omfg. What will it take to have accurate elections in this country?!

I'm so disgusted.

[stlsaxman]

2. Oh thanks CNN- FOR NOTHING!!!!!

yeah- it's all VOTER ERROR?!?!?

[manray11]

3. Devil's advocate

They set that up...Obviously the finger was pressing on the McCain border... Sloppy voters sometimes are to blame...

[unapatriciated]

14. if that can happen so easily and so often then it's a design error

[Peace Patriot]

4. The report mentions ES&S, a spinoff of Diebold. ES&S has, as its initial funder and major investor

Howard Ahmanson, who also gave one million dollars to the extremist 'christian' Chalcedon foundtation, which touts the death penalty for homosexuals, among other things.

According to Dan Rather's report, "The Trouble With Touchscreens" (www.HD.net), ES&S touchscreens are manufactured in miserable conditions, by sweatshop labor in the Philippines.

Total fascist scumbag corporation, 'counting' our votes with 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code--code the public is not permitted to review--with no audit/recount controls.

[daggahead]

12. Similar problems have been seen as far back as 2000 ...

... but as long as these "errors" favor the rethugs, I guess there is no problem, huh?

[TheCoxwain]

5. how come all the errors seem to favor McCain?

[Quantess]

26. yeah, how come all the errors favor McCain?

Those were some lame explanations in the clip, by the way.

[bkkyosemite]

6. Voter error my %&@)#&^*)^

[barack the house]

7. ...

...

[dbmk]

8. It does seem like it could be a user errors

The difference in the angle between the vision of the user and the screens angle can create the image that you are pushing at the right spot, but are actually pushing a tad higher. Its not uncommon on ATMs and information booths like it.

But.. why on earth would you make the application so it was so easy to make that mistake?

I would expect those buttons to be big enough and seperated enough so you could almost to smash you hand on the screen and still get the desired result.

In terms of usability and program complexity this should really be a walk in the park.

[jrockford]

9. "I wouldn't know how to do it to begin with" hahaha

maybe you wouldn't, you idiot, but I'm sure those who designed the machines would.

[TiaCarrera]

10. Did the rest of the 70+ citizens noticed the error too?

The 81-year-old man noticed the error, but how many others of his age saw the wrong indication? A set up or not, it's a fact that those machines did not work properly and somebody must be responsible for that.

[daggahead]

11. The solution is very simple ...

PAPER BALLOTS

[TiaCarrera]

13. Right, and kill nature!?

What about Mother Earth?! Paper ballots means 305,468,000 U.S. citizens multiplied by 2 (Obama/McCain) = 610,936,000 ballots! Can you imagine how many trees must be cut off to produce such an amount of paper?

[daggahead]

18. Yeah, I realize that.

Obviously this is not meant for this year's election, but in the future (if we'ere bold enough), we could make the paper ballots from hemp.

[TiaCarrera]

20. Or maybe better -

From recycled ballots from previous elections.

[1corona4u]

15. There is NO solution....

Paper ballots depend on a scanner, which can be inaccurate as well. We had it here in Florida in our last local primary. Everyone thiks they have the perfect solution, but that fact is, there is NO perfect solution. There never will be.

[daggahead]

17. Hand counting, not scanning ...n/t

[1corona4u]

22. Yeah, like human error won't be subject to errors...

need I remind you--hanging chad?

[daggahead]

24. Why doesn't Canada have a rash of "hanging chad" problems?

They use paper ballots.

[1corona4u]

25. Do they hand count?

[daggahead]

27. I believe they do.

I will have to check, though.

[daggahead]

29. Looks like they do ...

From the "Elections Canada" website FAQs:

http://www.elections.ca/content.asp?section=faq&document=faqvoting&lang=e&textonly=false#voting21

Before the deputy returning officer gives a person a ballot, he/she initials it. A numbered counterfoil is attached to each ballot. The elector must thereafter proceed directly to the voting compartment, mark the ballot paper, fold it as instructed by the deputy returning officer and return it to the deputy returning officer (the form of the ballot and the voting procedure are governed by ss. 116 and 150-53 of the Canada Elections Act).

When the voter returns the ballot, the deputy returning officer verifies that it is the same one that was handed to the elector. The deputy returning officer then removes and destroys the counterfoil, and returns the ballot to the elector to deposit in the ballot box or, at the elector's request, deposits it in the ballot box.

At the counting of the votes after the close of the polls, the deputy returning officer must determine, before the candidates' representatives present, that all the ballots the returning officer initially provided are accounted for. This entails counting the number of ballots in the box including spoiled ballots, and the number of ballots that were not used. If the deputy returning officer is unable to account for all ballots, the election results at that polling station can be contested on the basis of irregularity.

According to section 167(2)(a) of the Canada Elections Act, "no person shall wilfully alter, deface or destroy a ballot". Subsection 480(1) of the Act also provides that every person is guilty of an offence who, with the intention of delaying or obstructing the electoral process, contravenes this Act.

[goddess40]

16. Time to insist on paper ballots

IF Obama gets elected this should be the first thing done - go after voting accountability. States can decide how they want to implement the paper ballot but all votes must be able to physically available to recount.

[TiaCarrera]

19. Paper ballots are so old-school

and difficult to deal with; all the printing, all the voting rooms, then all the counting from all states; at the end - the LONG wait.. And yet, the results can still be manipulated - 350,000,000 ballots are a mountain of papers and "mistakes" are very likely to happen. We are all humans, after all.

;p

[goddess40]

21. and what would you suggest

continue with the easily manipulated electronic machines? I don't see any alternative to paper but I'm open to suggestions.

[TiaCarrera]

33. I'd support ELECTRONIC voting, but IMPROVED one

According to a research, voters strongly prefer using the electronic voting (EV) even though its performance is not any better on them. Until now, there's no evidence for strong differences between voting methods on efficiency. But why is it so difficult to just improve EV? Technologies nowadays are so flexible, their possibilities are countless. EV is much more comfortable, easier, even cheaper, time-saving, also more environment-friendly...

Here's the PDF of the research (click)

[goddess40]

34. There is no way to make EV tamper proof

it's much more difficult to tamper with paper ballots

We need to divide our polling places to reduce the opportunity of individuals ability to mess with paper ballots and more importantly make it easier to vote.

People like EV because it's new and EASY and American's are lazy and need new and novel ways to keep voting interesting - that's too damn bad. This country needs convenient, reliable and difficult to tamper with ways to vote.

[TiaCarrera]

35. The researchers confirmed it, paper ballots = EV on efficiency

Today there's no way to have the perfect errorless and most safe EV, but I believe in future that'd be the better and more efficient voting way. At least for now you can't deny that EV is more time-saving, cheaper and environment-friendly. Also I don't think Americans are lazy :)

[goddess40]

36. Who did this research?

Just because "someone" researched it doesn't make it true. If this administration researched it I'd bet my last dollar it's false.

They are currently having problems in West Virgina with the electronic machines casting votes contrary to the voters wishes.

Time saving, cheaper doesn't matter if the voter's wishes are being tallied correctly. As for environmentally friendly, I'll go with recyclable paper over machines any day.

[TiaCarrera]

37. Rice University, Houston, TX

And how could you be sure that the 350 million ballots are counted correctly? Would you count them all by yourself to see with your own eyes the exact amount of ballots for each candidate? :) Here's the http://www.chil.rice.edu/research/pdf/EverettGreeneBWDST_08.pdf&hl=bg&ct=clnk&cd=1">research in HTML , in case the pdf would not open.

[goddess40]

38. So you don't believe in recounts?

if there is no paper trail there is not recount. Since ALL computers can be hacked, they are not reliable for such an important task.

Excerpt from the Rice University study http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:Tfu5F8at5wsJ:chil.rice.edu/research/pdf/EverettGreeneBWDST_08.pdf+http://www.chil.rice.edu/research/pdf/EverettGreeneBWDST_08.pdf&hl=bg&ct=clnk&cd=1

"Overall, paper ballots, especially bubble ballots (so-named
for the oval next to each candidate’s name that voters must
fill in to indicate their choice), seem to be the voting
method that is the most usable for the greatest range of
users. This is due in part to their error rate of about 1.5%
<5>. While this number is certainly higher than we would
like to accept in a task this important, it is lower than the
error rates for both the punch cards and lever machines. "


Seems like bubble ballots are the way to go. They can be counted by machine and randomly checked to make sure votes are being switched or ignored. Since a reliable, valid recount can only be done with a physical ballot to look at machines are inferior.

In my district we use the bubble ballot and it is run through a machine as we leave to check for errors such as extraneous marks or over counts which reduces the error rate even more.

As far as counting all the ballots, I don't foresee that ever happening, recounts are done by district. Even in the Gore v Bush mess they didn't recount all of Florida, the court stopped the voting and just picked their guy.

[eppur_se_muova]

31. Errors on paper ballots happen one at a time. Errors in electronic voting are thousands at a time. n

[newmac]

23. They were purposely manufactured for the "Finger Effect" RIGGED

Everything crowded together so when you touch the name Obama; its EXTREMELY close to the border; and the vote goes for McCain.

RIGGED BY ES&S

[Turborama]

28. Situation Room in 2007 "America's voting machines not ready for 2008 election."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg2wbVDyWUI

There are reports of faulty machines springing up all over the place now...

http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/speaking-visually/social-networking/2008/10/voting-machines-2008-here-we-go-again/

[daggahead]

30. Could that be the October Surprise? n/t

Bush declares, "The vote cannot be trusted, therefore the election is postponed ... and I declare Martial Law and now I'm president for life."

[jazzjunkysue]

32. Either way, I'm glad this is finally on national TV. Ok, it's not network TV but at least

it's CNN.

People don't want to believe their vote could be compromised here. This is a big step.