General Wesley Clark on Russian-Georgian Conflict

[L. Coyote]

Run time: 07:11 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AgDeCPgoiA   Posted on YouTube: August 15, 2008 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: August 16, 2008 By DU Member: L. Coyote Views on DU: 3336

 

[gateley]

1. Thank you!

I was trying to watch/listen on the WesPac site, but could barely hear it! I'm very interested in what he has to say.

[rockymountaindem]

2. Gee, I thought Russia was just misunderstood...

or standing up against the Neocon/Israeli plot to rule the world :sarcasm:

Gen. Clark knows the score.

[Dave From Canada]

3. Thank you General Clark! I'm pretty sure, as the former NATO commander, he knows what he's talking

about.

[mia]

4. Thank you General Clark.

A man you can trust.
His ability to reflect on world affairs is why I've always supported him.

[Dinger]

5. K & R!

:patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot:

[whistle]

6. That was a sane discussion

[RufusTFirefly]

7. Bad Russians! Bad! Bad!!

Don't the Russkies realize that only Amurica is permitted to invade a country in order to control energy resources?

Russia-Georgia Conflict Fueled by Rush to Control Caspian Energy Resources
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/8/15/russia_georgia_conflict_fueled_by_rush

[Winston.]

8. What a bloody hypocrite

from somebody who played a central role in Yugoslavia's violent dissolution.

[elleng]

19. 'Central role?'

.

[bjobotts]

22. Yeah, I'm wondering what oil corp put those words in his mouth.

Georgia and its US ally get the oil pipeline not Russia. Bad Russia, bad

[martymar64]

25. Plus, he gave the S Ossetians the back of his hand

Fuck Clark, he's a neocon in my book.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Run time: 07:11 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AgDeCPgoiA   Posted on YouTube: August 15, 2008 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: August 16, 2008 By DU Member: Name removed Views on DU: 3336

 
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[knitter4democracy]

48. Russia definitely wouldn't respect him, that's for sure.

Anyone who's going to okay bombing Orthodox churches on Orthodox Easter has lost them entirely.

As for the US telling Russia that they're acting badly, all they have to do is bring up Iraq. We have no moral standing anymore.

[bdamomma]

50. Russia could put our noses in it, we have no business talking

about not invading another country, our credibility is just gone. In a way I wish some government would just say to this country STFU!

[JDPriestly]

9. Clark has an interesting view.

Some of the Europeans seem to be saying that the facts are unclear about who started this and that the blame should fall on both sides, but Clark seems to lay the blame almost entirely on Russia. I have a lot of confidence in Clark. I wonder what he thinks about the accusations that Georgia took the first aggressive steps.

Clearly, Clark is correct in criticizing the fact that Russia is supposedly playing a peace-keeping role in a dispute in which it is not neutral, but apparently Russia was a part of the official peace-keeping force in the area around Ossetia and had the legal right to be in that area. If Russia started the violence, then Clark is correct, but if Georgia started it, Clark is being a bit unfair to Russia. I wish Clark had explained his understanding of the facts about what happened better. He probably has more inside information than I have been able to get from the public European news sources I visit.

[endthewar]

10. On AirAmerica Radio Thom Hartmann said the ceasefire is heavily in favor of Russia.

To the extent that it contains language saying that Russia will be the peacekeepers in the region. He said it was discussed on the BBC, and experts were saying that Russia could eventually come back to Georgia later on if they feel like it according to the language in the ceasefire.

[Fedja]

12. Russia could come back later on regardless.

The west needs to realize one thing. Kosovo and South Ossetia are one and the same issue. The situation is the exact same, and after allowing Kosovo to declare its independence, they've opened the door for many other territories.

South Ossetia has held a referendum where it declared its independence. So technically, how different is Saakashvili from Milosevic and why isn't Russia treated like the US was when Serbia got bombed over in Kosovo?

It's a big grey area and anyone trumpeting the "blame russia" cliche is a moron.

[Gorobei]

21. Conflating this with Kosovo makes no sense.

This situation is an artificial one that was manufactured by the Soviets. All over the Soviet Union they relocated ethnic Russians into areas where they were a minority presence in numbers that would make them a slim majority.

Russia is exploiting this to cause instability and dissent in regions of it's neighboring republics for pure power reasons.

Russia is rapidly increasing it's nationalist movement, Putin is no democrat and Medvedev is his puppet. It is behaving aggressively with its military (see probing of Guam and Northern Europe with their "Bear" nuclear capable bombers).

Russia has been reaping the riches of the increased price for Oil and gas and is using the funds to re-militarize.


In light of this behavior, moron or not, one should be excused from a readiness to see Russia's behavior here as less than humanitarian and altruistically inspired.

[endthewar]

46. Russia still has work to do to grow its economy

People mistakenly assume that militaries win wars. The past few decades war has been reformed such that economies win wars now. It's not like you can't kill a lot of people with conventional weapons. The purpose of banning weapons of mass destruction is to make sure that there is a hurdle, a deterrent to waging war, which is strain on your economy.

[Fedja]

47. I hope you don't mind...

...if I analyze that a bit.

Conflating this with Kosovo makes no sense.

This situation is an artificial one that was manufactured by the Soviets. All over the Soviet Union they relocated ethnic Russians into areas where they were a minority presence in numbers that would make them a slim majority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo

You'll see that the Albanian presence in Kosovo is a product of the 20th century, and while the earlier references may not seem relevant to you, the historical perspective is very relevant in the Balkans. The collective memory goes back very far in the region, and Kosovo demographics are seen as an artificial construct as well.

Russia is exploiting this to cause instability and dissent in regions of it's neighboring republics for pure power reasons.

Considering the fact that Georgia opened the conflict with heavy shelling of a purely civilian city and a subsequent military invasion of a sovereign territory, one might argue Russia was provoked. Why? Well the Polish reacted by signing the missile defense shield agreement.

Russia is rapidly increasing it's nationalist movement, Putin is no democrat and Medvedev is his puppet. It is behaving aggressively with its military (see probing of Guam and Northern Europe with their "Bear" nuclear capable bombers).

Democrat leaders and their puppets. I'm going into sarcasm overload here, do excuse me. We can play a game...

"Bush, Cheney, Republican, Iraq, Invasion, 1.2 million dead, election theft"

Insert those nouns at random to replace the nouns in your above statement. Any way you do it, the results are a good chuckle.

Russia has been reaping the riches of the increased price for Oil and gas and is using the funds to re-militarize.

Bad bad Russia. How dare they sell oil at market price. America triggered the oil price increases by destabilizing the Middle East, but it didn't re-militarize with it. Nop, that was private profits, the re-militarization was paid for by the American people.

In light of this behavior, moron or not, one should be excused from a readiness to see Russia's behavior here as less than humanitarian and altruistically inspired.

Liberators and aggressors aren't always black and white. I could have drawn the same comparisons with Serbia, but I figure this hits closer to home. What would Jesus say? Judge not, lest thou be judged. Of course Russia's behavior is not humanitarian and altruistically inspired, if that's how it operated, it would never be a superpower. Still their actions were a reaction, and painting them as the chief culprit and the red monster shows a baffling lack of understanding of even the basic current facts, much less historical implications.

[DallasNE]

28. I Wonder How Much

Clark is speaking for himself and how much he is speaking as a surrogate for Obama. This could be Clark making a last ditch pitch for Obama'a VP. Not that I think Clark said anything wrong here but this does look a lot like the Obama position on the issue. Former German PM Schroeder is now clearly blaming Georgia for starting the latest fighting. That's how I read it too but getting at the truth is very difficult given the strong tilt our own MSM has for towing the Bush/McCain line.

[cyndensco]

45. I must have missed something.

From what I have seen, Obama has not singled out either side as the one "behaving badly." His initial comment, unlike mccain's, did not serve to pounce on Russia. At the time, he was not sure who "started it" but called for cooler heads on each side.

Clark's interview felt opposite Obama's stance. He sounded mccain-like: "big, bad Russia!" Unless I missed something, possibly one of Obama's recent comments about the squirmish, Clark is speaking for himself and not as Obama's surrogate.

[Dinger]

11. Thank You! K & R! (nt)

[tomp]

13. not at all impressed. obvious bias and obfuscation. nt

[jimlup]

23. +1

Exactly, he holds the standard neocon views here.

[Hamlette]

14. kick to read later

[KillgoreTrout]

15. We would have....

more leverage if we too weren't occupying a sovereign nation. How can we rightfully chide Russia when we have been engaging in imperialism for the last 6+ years???

[L. Coyote]

29. US imperialism began when the Revolutionary War veterans invaded Ohio.

Not to mention a century of genocide!

[lynettebro440]

16. God I wish Obama

would pick Clark for VP, that would be a powerful ticket. I know everyone thinks Clark has bad history but damn....I didn't think a black guy named Obama had a chance in 2004 and I dreamed and it came true.....I think that would be a fuckin bad ass ticket.

[elleng]

18. Pardon,

but 'everyone' does NOT think that Wes Clark 'has bad history;' only those who haven't studied the matter.

Check out securingamerica.com, 'everyone.'

[bjobotts]

17. After Iraq we don't have the right to condemn Russia.McCain wants war

[bjobotts]

20. Many view NATO as controlled by the US.Georgia broke the treaty

Thinking, because of McCain/Rove/and Shunerman, that they would get their $800,000 dollars worth and the US would back their invasion. They blew it badly based on rotten advice from their lobbyist and now McCain is trying to make it up to them. When we get them to do businessw with us especially oil business then we call it a democracy.

[jimlup]

24. Clark is a neocon

This is very disappointing. My view of Wesley Clark's so called integrity dropped significantly with this interview. I guess the american public and most of DU swallow this simplistic analysis hook line and sinker.

His "trial" should be held but it isn't the Russians who should be on trial. Georgia's bombing of S. Ossetia is, by far, the most serious crime and the Georgian leaders should be held accountable for this wanton attack on a civilian population.

[rebel with a cause]

26. In my opinion Clark is not a neocon, but

he is still perhaps caught up in the cold war way of thinking. This macho type of mentality that the US has to be all powerful and controlling of the world is something that I can't get behind, because I believe there has to be a balance of more than one super power to keep the world from becoming too dominated by the one and only (namely US at the moment).

Since Clark, like Obama, has been against the Iraq invasion from the beginning, we do not know what feels about a trail for "our leaders" on it also. But I agree with you that Georgia and those that encouraged their actions should be looked at in a "trial" as well as the actions taken by Russia in response to it. This just focusing on Russia is old hat as far as I am concerned.

I still think Clark's integrity is intact, but I would argue some of his points with him. He may be more knowledgeable than I am on this type of thing, but I still disagree with some of his points and I believe we all have the right to have a voice. I was glad to hear him say that the US should not be militarily involved in this. At least he does not have the "cowboy" knee jerk reaction to everything that happens around the world.

As far as VP is concerned, I don't know anyone that I like for the position. Clark is as good, if not better, than most of the others purposed, but this is just my opinion. I am not thrilled with many politicans these days. :shrug:

[jimlup]

30. yeah, I'll admit that I was exaggerating but...

I'm disappointed in Clark. His knowledge is enough to get us into deep trouble. What the hell is he doing advocating missiles in Poland and NATO for Georgia? I mean if you want to wake the Russian bear - what better way? These people do believe they can rule the world and the US hegemony will continue unmatched forever. This is a very naive position in my opinion and Clark clearly endorses this.

Of course this is the mainstream position, which is why Clark's "integrity" is considered "intact". As a citizen of the US I am very concerned that this is the mainstream accepted position. In my view, it is a major strategic error. And it serves interests other than those of the american people.

[HannibalBarca]

33. Whoever "started it"

as you say, surely you agree that the Russian response is inordinately disproportionate? Georgia is no where near a match militarily for Russia, thousands upon thousands of displaced refugees and roaming gangs of Ossetian militia and other irregular forces. I would lay blame predominately at the foot of Putin for this one who, as General Clark correctly states, wants the old Russian superpower back.

[northernlights]

41. no more disproportionate

than our attack on 3rd world, beaten down Iraq for nonexistant WMDs was. And Iraq hadn't even threatened or attacked anyone back in 2003.

Yet we laid waste to their remaining, pathetic infrastructure. Caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands, if not a million, Iraqis. Caused many thousands, if not a few million more, to leave their homeland.

Sorry, but we don't have a moral inch of ground left to stand on.

Georgia initiated the war, in all likelihood urged on by McBush's pals and Rove. They expected US backing. They didn't realize, somehow, that the US is a bankrupt entity. Or that they were set up as a foil, to make the US election about war and the big, bad Ruskies.

Now they're reaping the rewards of their folly. Russia is not Iraq. It will not lose *its* investments in oil infrastructure. it doesn't care about our elections. While Bush has been fiddling and the US burning, Russia has been rebuilding.

[Fedja]

49. Let's talk proportion

Georgia shelled a civilian capitol of S. Ossetia with artillery fire and air strikes. Militias and irregular forces had nothing to do with a pounding of a civilian capitol. Russia seems to be targeting the Georgian army. If they wanted to pulverize Georgia as a whole they could do it in a hearts&minds blitzkrieg.

[rebel with a cause]

34. I agree with you about the missiles in Poland.

Why the heck do we have to have military and missiles all over the world. We want to be able to say who can have nuclear weapons, we want to say who is wrong and who is right in every situation, and yet we think we should be able to place missiles anywhere we want to intimidate other countries. I was also disappointed that Clark endorsed it. This is not the first time he has surprised and disappointed me, it is just that he has done it a little less than some of the others.

[jimlup]

44. Mainstream Imperialistic Assumptions

Most of the mainstream media and the elite politicians take the concept of American hegemony over the whole world for granted. Most of the arguments within the political mainstream of the US are about tactics in this pursuit. It is actually odd, when I stop to think about it, that this has happened in our country. Curious because the American people don't share this view (or even really comprehend it) only the politicians and the dominant media. I guess empire is good for business, that is the only explanation that I can conceive of that explains the pervasiveness of this ideal within the elite power structure.

[bertman]

27. Interesting comments by Gen. Clark, but what struck me was how he totally skirted Russia's totally

predictable reaction to attempts by the U.S./neocons to encircle and isolate the oil-producing areas of the MidEast for their benefit.

It's disappointing to see someone who is supposedly a staunch Obama supporter spouting the neocon/Oil propaganda line, but given Wes Clark's background as an Imperial Commander, we shouldn't be surprised.

Particularly amusing was his statement that Putin wants Russia to be able to have something to say about whatever happens anywhere in the world. The irony of that line apparently escaped the General, who is supporting the U.S.'s "right" to have something to say about whatever happens anywhere in the world. Of course, we wrap ours up in talk about NATO and other alliances that were created as a counterbalance to Soviet military might during the Cold War, but which are still used as a way of keeping Russian power in check--witness the Polish anti-missile screen that the U.S. wants to deploy. But the fact is we don't just "have something to say about it" we actually interfere militarily wherever we want to--either covertly or overtly.

I do give Gen. Clark credit for faulting NATO and the U.S. for not engaging more actively with Russia to integrate her into the New World Order (although he did not use that term). But, by and large, he was attempting to divert our attention from the fact that the Russians are not going to accept U.S. attempts to hem them in with so-called democratic governments that are backed militarily, politically and economically by the neocon-controlled U.S. government.

P.S. Gorobei, Russia's invasion of Georgia was neither humanitarian nor altruistic. It was national self defense, pure and simple. The neocons were grooming Georgia as a client state and the Russians weren't going to put up with it. The Ossetia invasion was the provocation they needed.

[SergeyDovlatov]

31. I am glad at level of debate on DU. Freepers are all about bomb... bomb

Clark is right about NATO expansion being the primary motivation for the conflict, but his talk about further NATO expansion seem to me as very dangerous. It will only promote further conflicts. Russia feels betrayed, by broken promises of the west. To promote peaceful dissolution of the Soviet Union we were promised by US administration that NATO will never expand into Warsaw pact countries or former Soviet Republics.

Russia is a regional player, not world player. Russia's defense budget is half of the budget of US department of education. Russia is a country that is much harder to defend than US. We are surrounded by countries that invaded us (Russians) one or more times in the last 100 years.

We need friendly countries on our periphery without military bases of would be enemies (judging from repub talk show rhetoric we are enemies)

I find that Pat Buchanon gives a much better perspective on the conflict than W.Clark:

Is Not Western Hypocrisy Astonishing?
http://www.lewrockwell.com/buchanan/buchanan93.html


Russia has invaded a sovereign country, railed Bush. But did not the United States bomb Serbia for 78 days and invade to force it to surrender a province, Kosovo, to which Serbia had a far greater historic claim than Georgia had to Abkhazia or South Ossetia, both of which prefer Moscow to Tbilisi?

Is not Western hypocrisy astonishing?

When the Soviet Union broke into 15 nations, we celebrated. When Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Kosovo broke from Serbia, we rejoiced. Why, then, the indignation when two provinces, whose peoples are ethnically separate from Georgians and who fought for their independence, should succeed in breaking away?

Are secessions and the dissolution of nations laudable only when they advance the agenda of the neocons, many of whom viscerally detest Russia?

[DU GrovelBot]

32. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v4.1
==================



This week is our third quarter 2008 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Please take a moment to donate! Thank you!

[Truth2Tell]

35. Ah yes, the World Empire wing of the Democratic Party

hard at work.

Why don't you go drop some more depleted uranium explosives on populated areas Wes. Stick to what you're good at.

[fascisthunter]

37. very disappointing

[lenegal]

36. Clark was thrown under the bus

Wes Jr wrote on Daily Kos last night that his dad will not be a VP pick. He stated that his dad has not been vetted.

On top of that, the General has NOT been invited to the Democratic Convention. I am so pissed. O just threw this brilliant man under a bus.

[Lena inRI]

42. Prove it. . .

. . .with your meager 50 posts and a perfunctory Clark avatar, prove that he has not been invited to the convention. . .

otherwise, you're nothin' but somekinda troll for. . .GOP. . .other VP promoter. . .

prove it with a link to Clark quote. . .waiting. . .patiently.

If nothing, get lost and go stew in your envy.


:smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke:

[dunow]

38. vido of Saakashvili eating his tie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kid379OjuC0

[Hulk]

39. God, wouldn't it be something to have some "reasoned, intelligent thinking" in the White House????

....instead of this insane saber rattling??

I admire ret. General Wesley Clark. This man obviously knows what he is talking about...and CNN along with all the other propaganda networks have their heads up their asses...as usual.

[Sam Ervin jret]

40. Imagine if mental and emotional grown ups ran the country again?

We might all be able to exhale one collective sigh of relief.

[LaPera]

43. Obama to General Wesley Clark-Your Services Not Needed-Clark NOT invited to Democratic Convention

Are Democrat Wesley Clark's articulate & scathing views and verbalization's of republicans out of touch?

Is a charismatic, knowledgeable, handsome, well spoken foreign affairs democratic General a handicap for Obama and the Democrats?

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/2008/08/obama_to_genera/