It's going to take the military themselves to put a stop to the madness

[Postman]

Since the republican/fascist Congress won't hold the Loony Toon Administration accountable.

Gotta wonder if the JCS have the gonads to say "No" to George "Dr Strangelove" Bush at their roundtable meetings for fear of getting cut down at the knees - they do their dissenting publicly by releasing all of these juicy details to Sy Hersch for publication.

A warning of sorts - to Bush - without being overtly insubordinate

[babylonsister]

1. His numbers are in the toilet; practically no one believes him

anymore. What's to believe? Have we been told one truth, seriously?

[Postman]

2. well, he DID say he wanted to be "dictator"....

I think that pretty much has happened.

[jberryhill]

3. Trouble is...

...there's no tradition of using a coup as a Constitutional mechanism in the US. The only analogy to what would happen if Bush ordered a nuke attack on Iran would be what happened when Nixon wanted to fire Cox - a succession of resignations until he got to the highest ranking person left without principle.

The only Constitutional option is for the Vice President and the cabinet to declare that Bush has gone batshit crazy. Trouble is that Cheney is no saner...


4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

[Wilms]

4. I wonder, too.

That story about sensitive information regarding Air Force One got me thinking that a message was being sent.

That said, I'd prefer fair elections to military coups. OK, OK. An educated electorate would be a nice touch.

[pacalo]

5. I'm interested in hearing more

about this:

That story about sensitive information regarding Air Force One got me thinking that a message was being sent.

Which story?

[Wilms]

10. Here you are...

Web site exposes Air Force One defenses

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2216105


Air Force One data removed from Web

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2220564

[pacalo]

14. Thanks, Wilms.

As for possible "messages" being sent to the WH, that has been on my mind since the wheels began falling off the bus. Nixon's own party turned against him, too, & this prezinut is on the same path.

[Dhalgren]

6. We've no patriots left in positions of power, the fascists have

seen to that. The only military "leadership" we have left is sycophantic lick-spittles and time-servers. Our population is so brainwashed against any kind of real insurrection that I don't think we could get any kind of coordination going in any numbers at all. It's more like "1984" than any of us even realize. We are isolated, alone, and marginalized. We are the dead...

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

7. Then who's talking to Hersh?

Rummy didn't get 'em all.

Can we compromise and call it "1983?"

[Dhalgren]

9. Hey, I'll take almost any ray of hope at all, at this point.

I will pray that it is "1983", but I fear we all must try harder to think double-plus good...

[Booster]

8. From something on an earlier thread they showed an animation

of what would happen if they sent bunker busters into Iran. A mushroom cloud would send radioactive shit all the way across Iraq and into Afghanistan, where most of our troops are. If they aren't willing to pull each and every soldier out of the entire area then they are the worst of scum, and the worst of traitors to the troops.

[Savannah Progressive]

11. I don't know if you are aware, but the scenario you hope for is impossible

Each member of the Military swears an oath to follow the orders of the Commander and Chief.

The officers have sworn this oath "I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)

The Enlistment Oath is "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

Now, one of those duties that they must faithfully discharge is absolute loyalty to the Commander and Chief, no matter who it is. They can't legally refuse an order, unless that order is illegal. Short of ordering the Military to violate the laws of land warfare, or violate the Uniform Code of Military Justice, there is nothing they can do except obey, and carry out their orders in as professional and proficient manner possible.

If they fail to follow an order, the President, again no matter who, be it Bush, or Feingold (we sincerely hope) would be well and truly within his right, and probably required, to relieve that officer on the spot. A good example is Truman/MacArthur during Korea. Truman gave him an order, and he carried it out, but not faithfully, nor well. He then disobeyed President Truman, and the President rightly fired MacArthur.

In that situation, you don't have to like the President, you may not have voted for him, may personally believe he is the worst President in history, yet our nation expects, no demands, that the officer in question carry out his sworn duty to the utmost of his ability. I personally don't want to create the scenario where Political Opponents of a President in Uniform disobey, and even remove the President over a difference of opinion. I refuse to see a day when our military is responsible for a series of coups, one right after the next, like we are some third world nation.

[Horse with no Name]

12. Their first oath is to the Constitution

"that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic,"

There is no doubt in my mind that a coup has occurred in this country in 2000. Our government was taken over by a bunch of hotheaded, trigger happy fascists.
It IS the military duty to take it back...the question is will they?

[baby_mouse]

13. Yeah...

Better the Iranians die in their radioactive millions.

[4freethinking]

15. If it is

the presidents intent to replace senior military commanders with persons willing to carry out his order to use nuclear weapons the president must be removed from power.

[Savannah Progressive]

16. No, it's the Military that must obey.

President Truman issued an order to MacArthur, and history correctly holds Truman up as correct and proper in his action in firing MacArthur for failing to follow the President's Orders.

I am not looking at the current situation alone, I am looking on down the road, to the next President, perhaps Kerry or Feingold. What if President Feingold issues orders to the Military, to attack a Terrorist Training Camp on the Russian Southern Boarder? Now, having issued this hypothetical order, what do we do to the officer who refuses such an order as illegial, or immoral, under his beliefs? We have just set the standard that the Military must agree with the President, or that the President must step down.

I won't allow my own short sighted view to destroy that which keeps us from becoming a tin pot dictatorship. While we may allude to that being in existance now, or perhaps even shout it outright, it's not an accurate representation. Bush must step down in January 2009, and we will have our elections in November of 2008 to choose his successor. Goddess willing, we will win our election, and it will be a fair equitable election. However, I don't want our Military to be the deciding factor on who our leader will be, or won't be, and I don't think you do either.