Lest we forget... "Give me your tired, your poor,

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."


A line from a poem, “The New Colossus,” by the nineteenth-century American poet Emma Lazarus. “The New Colossus,” describing the Statue of Liberty, appears on a plaque at the base of the statue. It ends with the statue herself speaking:

It used to be true.


A graphic from two years ago.

[Deja Q]

1. Um, guess how many unemployed Americans are tired and poor, eh?

And I much prefer John F Kennedy's statement: "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country."

Loyalty is what makes people stick together.

What is going on today is utter, muddy selfishness; who care for their bottom line more than any community. And people think the bird flu is a vile disease.

In that respect, I may as well go to the White House, apologize to Bush personally, and get on the good side of the corporate interests. I would then be no different.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

4. Having worked with many more immigrants than Vulcans, the selfishness

that comes from the corporations is real, the selfishness from the majority of immigrants I have worked for is for family.

I can live with that.

[Deja Q]

9. Their families. But not the countries they came from,

who then proceed to wave their ex-country's flag around.

They piss on their own country by leaving, and then wave their ex-flag?! That's bizarre. They are out for themselves only. They give as much a flip about America as any corporate exec.

And to clarify, I mean those illegals or any immigrant who leaves their country only to show open and overt loyalty to it over the USA. They came here so they must prefer it here and don't like the country they left.

Immigrants are cool. They made this country from hard work and determination.

But when they come here, they are here for the USA.

And how many of them realize that they are still being exploited, and taking the rest of us down with them?

FIX THE WAGE PROBLEM FIRST. THEN REFORM IMMIGRATION.

You see, it works both ways. If I emigrated to a European country and then waved the American flag all about, how the frig do you expect those people in that country to respond? No differently to how I am thinking.

BTW: Why the talk of Vulcans? They're a fictional race. Please, please, get back into reality.

[BlooInBloo]

2. Thanks in no small part to DUer's attitudes....

They should just remove the Statue of Liberty from US soil.

[Inland]

7. Let's hire twelve million illegals to take it apart and reassemble it

in any country that actually doesn't have immigration laws. If having the stupid statue meant that for all time we can't have immigration laws, then take it away.

[Deja Q]

11. Which country is it, the one with no immigration laws? :D

I might move over there. And start waving the American flag too. That should be fun for you to watch on your telly...

[Inland]

17. Um. I'm not sure. Maybe none.

I first thought that there must be a country that is so difficult that they just didn't see the need for them.

But then I got the impression even the least popular and poorest countries have laws because they don't trust foreigners with money to influence their politics.

[Inland]

3. I didn't vote for it. Did anyone ask if it meant "all" your wretches?

Unless it meant "all", then I don't have a problem with it. If it meant "all" the wretches, then I want a vote.

I vote that not all wretches be allowed to immigrate.

[Missy M]

5. It used to be mostly true but I believe we would send....

the sick and "feeble minded" (as they were called) back to their homeland.

[Neil Lisst]

6. lest we forget, that was when the US was accepting immigrants

pretty much whoever showed up.

It's a great poem, but it really doesn't help for now.

Women didn't vote then, and rights for blacks were nonexistent. It's best to remember a time in all its glory, with all its warts and moles, and realize it is not NOW.

[genie_weenie]

8. ummm, lest we forget

The sonnet by Emma Lazarus is not the policy of the United States. And her The New Colossus plaque wasn't put onto the Statue of Liberty until 1903.

[Inland]

22. That's what I said. I didn't vote for it.

It's a poem.

[genie_weenie]

39. And I think we should have that plaque removed from the SoL

because the poem was written by someone named Lazarus clearly a violation of the church and state seperation...

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

10. Unless you're a "Native American," You too, are a fucking immigrant.

[HEyHEY]

12. bingo

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

14. Thanks for the support and voice of sanity...

Figures that it would come from a Canadian (Where my family came from in the early 1900's).

[Deja Q]

13. Yeah, and the immigrants of long ago exploited and slaughtered.

Nothing has fucking changed.

And you seem to be supporting Bush in welcoming more of the same.

Fine by me, I'll change my tune too. Maybe we should all support Bush in all things?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

15. HT, if you have ever read my posts before, you know damn well

that you're talking out of your ass.

It's okay to disagree, but that's horseshit.

[Inland]

19. Thanks for the warning. How the native americans doing nowadays?

Looks to me that they could have used some stronger immigration laws or something.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

23. Actually, they would have needed a larger Army & an understanding

of European ownership beliefs.

Immigration laws would have done them no good and I would hope that you would know that.

*sheesh*

[Inland]

24. Well, thank god we have those, too!

I mean, I guess you aren't really understanding that bringing up the native americans really shows that immigration didn't do them any favors.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

30. There's a difference between invading with armies and immigrating. Jesus.

On edit:

What, do you think Cortez came to assimilate with the indigenous peoples?

[Inland]

33. What, do you think that immigrants come to assimilate with me?

Yeah, I'm sure there were a few indians that weren't worried either.

[radio4progressives]

20. Right the fvck On Tom!

Right now I'm so disgusted with the plethora of xenophobic and racist vile and venom based on distortions, misrepresentations and just plain poppycock.

[JuniperLea]

21. I was born here

My people met my people at Plymouth Rock... 11 generations born here one one side of the family and the other side was here for countless centuries... what does that make me? I am a native American.


No, I am not an immigrant. I was born here. I had a very interesting argument with an old friend of mine, a lawyer who happened to be American Indian by the name of Allogan Slagel. He got all over my ass about calling him a Native American. He said, reglardless of where you live, you are a native of the country where you were born and the only distinction that could be made, properly, is if I were to call him an American Indian. I know... that goes against what a lot of people think. I would never argue with Allogan!

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

28. Thanks for that perspective.

400 years is a long time and a short time. Perspective is relative.

The genocides of the 17th and 18th and 19th Centuries do not legitimize the occupation of these lands any more than the Holocaust would legitimize the actions of Hitler had he been successful.

The winners write the history and that is why so many see America as a land of European "Settlers" with some people who live here as well that we gave rights to after slavery being called slavery was determined to not be "PC."

The land we live in today is a melting pot that was set to boil years ago. The vast variety of ingredients has become a vital part of its existence. For us to cut it off today is to deny ourselves of growth and any potential goodness.

[JuniperLea]

35. I agree in part

This is my country as much as anyone's. I didn't kill American Indians or steal their land. I didn't own slaves. All I did was be born and I didn't ask for that either. None of that is my fault. I would never have been party to such actions.

I don't think anything as drastic as opening the borders fully or shutting them down completely is the right thing to do. Anyone who talks in extremes needs to play some chess and learn to think five moves ahead of the game.

[genie_weenie]

38. Aren't "Native Americans"

fucking immigrants? Does the fact their ancestors made it here 10,000-25,000 years ago make them more legitmate than someone elses ancestor who arrived 600 or less years ago?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

40. Ummmm... I don't think there that many humans here when that happened.

DUH!

[genie_weenie]

41. My, admittedly sarcastic point, was

that every human in the Americas is an immigrant including the "Native" Americans. The real issue is that immigration comes down to one basic fact: land ownership and force.

Every Nation-State on the world was forged by two things: Force and population. Active warfare to kill off the native population and importation of conquering peoples.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

44. So you suggest that we continue on that ancient paradigm?

Of destroy the weak because you are able?

[genie_weenie]

51. No I do not suggest we continue the use of Force

I would propose the elimination of the Nation-State and entities like NATO and the UN (which is established to enforce the powers of Nation-States, sometimes with naked aggression/sometimes with veiled aggression). Of course, people will fight to keep Nation-States in existence including killing their fellow men.

And I never said that force and power were RIGHT, merely the history of Nations (including the US) has been about collecting power in a central repository (sometimes called the Fuhrer, Parliament, the Thing, The Central Committee, the Politburo, etc...)

But, tell me your ideas?

[Ksec]

42. Read a book

Fossils show Europeons were here first so that silly argument is moot. Besides my great grandmother was an Indian. So get out of my country if you dont like it...

:)

[genie_weenie]

52. That is still a highly debatable position

And even so, it is not an And/Or proposition. Asians could have crossed the Bering Land Strait and Indo-Europeans could have hoped over as well.

But, the point is Humans did not arise in America. Every human here has an ancestor who immigrated...

[Poppyseedman]

16. A little twist

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

I think a lot of illegal immigrants think it reads "Your huddled masses yearning to breathe live free"

I have no problem whatsoever someone coming here to work, produce and contribute to eventually become a citizen.

If they don't want to be a citizen, that's O.K. Leave when you visa is up or re-apply.

To those that want to come here to sponge off us, go the hell home and sponge off your own countryman

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

18. Yup. They're all sponging off us by mowing our yards, building our

homes, picking our lettuce... All for substandard wages.

They aren't the villians here. We and corporate America are because of greed.

[Poppyseedman]

25. I'm not sure what post you read, but no where did I say the ones that

are working, moving our yards, picking our lettuce, are sponging off us?

There is a percent of immigrants that simply come here, figure out how to scam the system and take advantage of our goodness.

These are the ones I was referring too. To those I say: GO HOME

Do you think those that lay back, abuse our system, don't contribute and that's O.K.?

[0007]

27. Please refrain from putting "me" in your "We and corporate America

are because of greed."

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

32. Did you ever buy California Lettuce?

We. Me too.

[lastliberalintexas]

29. Who's this we, kemosabe?

I don't ask them to work in the conditions they do- in fact, I fight against it. One of the problems I have with ILLEGAL immigration in this country is that their very stature as illegal immigrants leads to their own exploitation.

Let me repeat- many, many illegal immigrants work in absolutely deplorable conditions in this country and out up with things that most here can't seem to imagine- 10-16 hour days, a pittance for pay, harassment of all kinds, and unsafe conditions. Have you ever seen reports of the chicken farms (ie, the poultry processing facilities that are staffed almost entirely by illegals)? It isn't a pretty sight, and isn't something to which ANYONE should be subjected. But the workers there can't complain BECAUSE they are illegal, and people like Pilgrim and Tyson would have them deported for daring to speak up.

The only 2 ways that I know to correct that situation are 1. open immigration or 2. enforce the laws already on the books against the employers who hire the illegal workers and concerning immigration. Open immigration isn't an answer as far as I'm concerned because I'd rather not see the result that an ever increasing supply of labor would have on the average workers' wages. It's been bad enough as it is.

I and other like me are neither racists nor greedy people, but you and others on this board will apparently go on thinking that regardless of information to the contrary.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

34. Ever buy a Tyson chicken product? California Veggie? It's WE.

Did you ever go to a restaurrant with a temp busboy or a hotel with a "temp" maid.

then you have supported the people exploiting the migrant worker.

[JuniperLea]

31. I think people forget...

You can't get social services without a social security card... something that people forget. Schools are crap with or without immigrants... I'm not blaming teachers for this either!

My middle kid has very fond memories of, as he puts it, "teaching" his friend Fabian from Columbia to speak English when they were in kindergarten together. Fabian was later in my Cub Scout Den... These kids are all "my" kids, DAMMIT!

We need to cut through the emotional bullshit and find a way through this mess.


Mostly, we need to stay focused on the corrupt administration... and I mean CLOSELY focused. I think all this immigration talk is being stirred up to distract us from the ass-wipe in the WH who thinks he is Jesus smacking the asses of the horses of the Apocalypse!

[undeterred]

26. I am feeling tired and poor tonight

but you already have me. :shrug:

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

36. LOL....

:hug:

[DanCa]

37. She points away from Jersey no?

JK :D

[B Calm]

43. The illegal immigrants need to go home and fix their own country.

Right now Cheap Labor Employers and Illegal immigrants are destroying the middle class in the United States!

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

45. Like we can fix ours?

The Immigrants are undermining the middle class? Who the fuck is hiring them then?

[B Calm]

47. Maybe if you read the rest of my damn post you would have seen

that I pointed that out too!

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

50. I did read it. You pointed that out and you shared the blame of the

mess with the immigrants. They're a tool being used. That's all IMHO.

[JuniperLea]

46. Their government is as corrupt as ours

What do you expect them to do?

[B Calm]

49. That's their problem. We have to take steps right now to restore

the middle class or will end up just like their countries!

[rman]

48. we help to mess up their country

NAFTA, CAFTA etc

[B Calm]

53. We need to stop the Republican Agreements NAFTA & CAFTA !

[rman]

57. We need to stop Dem reps supporting such agreements as well.

Clinton supported NAFTA. IIRC CAFTA was recently passed with Dem approval as well.

[donheld]

54. The french need to reposess this statue

If we no longer are a nation that represents what she says.

[B Calm]

55. You are falling for the republican trap on illegal immigration!

[donheld]

56. Bullshit!

[anarch]

58. "and I'll throw them into a detention camp"

"and maybe use them as slave labor, too."