This Immigration Issue Is Making Some Here Bat-shit Crazy

[matcom]

:eyes:

The repukes want cheap labor. To counter that, SOME of you are advocating the fact that these poor people are "ILLEGAL"!!!1111!!!1 :eyes:

"These people" aren't going away. YOU can't get rid of them and neither can the hard core repukes. THEY are here to stay and yes, more WILL come in. Frankly, our borders should be 'continent-driven' not country driven. I LOVED the fact I could purchase a Euro Pass and ride the trains all over Europe without walls, fences or barbed wire when I was stationed there. I, btw, was PRESENT when the Berlin Wall was toppled by the HUMANS of this planet. Oh, what a party it was.

A GOOD Liberal would fight for a fair wage, and HUMANITY for these people. A HEALTHY immigrant populace is beneficial to us all (as is a HEALTHY 'native' populace. FIGHT FOR THAT). Fact is YES: MANY of them work a hell of a lot harder than the rest of us. Deal with that fact because it IS a fact. MANY hold down 3 and/or 4 jobs. MANY have opened successful businesses. It is up to US to ensure they are NOT exploited. These people DO contribute to society in ways you and I are NOT willing to. (oooooo I have offended someone here. bullshit.) They DO have children here. DEMAND your government offer health care to all. TO ALL! NOT just to 'US'. NOT just to 'THEM'. Equality for all. Period.

I am sick of the 'they are taking jobs away'!!! I have YET to meet ONE DUer who lost his/her hotel maid job to an 'illegal'. How many of you are BEGGING to wash trays at your local McDonald's but 'just can't seem to find work because of the illegals'? :eyes:

It ain't happening folks. Give it up. If you are currently unemployed, chances are (if you have a high-school diploma) you can't blame it on the Mexicans. OUTSOURCING got you down? Those jobs are NOT going to Mexico. Blame the corporations, NOT the people slaving away for any $$ they can make.

I know these people from both my travels abroad and befriending them here. They are WONDERFUL people. Fuck it. The CUBANS have a wet-foot/dry-foot policy. I say spread that policy to all. You CANNOT let the Cubans in and not the 'others'. At least THEY don't take the opportunities here for granted as YOU and *I* do. Funny, I can't remember hearing Lou Dobbs chastising the Cubans recently. :eyes:

I am too young to remember the racism of the 60's, the busing boycotts or the violent riots. But what I DO see is a racist trend both on Freeperville AND *so sadly* right here on DU. The Government is NEVER going to HELP these people. It is up to US. They ARE productive members (and ESSENTIAL) to our society. Deal with it. Again, that is NOT going to change. I for one (MUCH to Lou Dobbs chagrin EMBRACE our diversity). Want to 'fix' the 'problem'? DEMAND CAFTA and NAFTA are repealed immediately. BOYCOTT the automakers (et al) who move THEIR factories down to Mexico to exploit the cheap labor. Think about this: WHY are good workers STILL leaving their families behind to hide out in America when they *COULD BE GAINFULLY EMPLOYED BY GM IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY?*

So much fighting here over this bullshit "crisis" (yes folks, this is manufactured by a repuke politic that is grasping at straws, trying to divide before the mid-terms). You fell for it.

Shame on you.

Flame the fuck away. It's your right. Enjoy it. I'll likely not return to this thread as i'm tired of even reading this forum. Beat each other up. Gather up the busses. Brown vs. White. Have a fucking blast.

Keep letting the repukes set the fake agenda.

[xultar]

1. ...

:popcorn:

[benburch]

2. The real ethical and moral solution to this is open borders.

On the Statue of Liberty it says;

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

This sounds like the policy we ought to adopt here.

No illegal aliens because everybody is welcomed.

Let's not slam the Golden Door.

[karlrschneider]

8. Unfortunately, Emma Lazarus wrote that a very long time ago

when, I suspect, a lot of Americans (weren't -most- of our own ancestors "illegal"?) didn't much care one way or the other.
:eyes:

[benburch]

15. Yes they were.

We slammed the Golden Door to Jews fleeing Hitler's Reich. I don't think we're made amends to that adequately even now.

[Common Sense Party]

19. EVERYBODY? Without limits?

Okay, there are 11 million undocumented non-citizens living here now. How many more should we allow to enter? Another 11 million? 20 million? 50 million?

The world is a pretty big place. America is a great country, obviously. How many of the world's 6 billion should we allow here?

[benburch]

32. Everybody. Without Limits.

Do you know that all of the people on the planet could have a two square meters to themselves if they all went to the state of Connecticut to live?

We have plenty of room.

We either represent freedom, or we represent elitism. That is the choice here. I've made mine.

[The Backlash Cometh]

48. Unbelieveable. I take it you've never worked in any public service

facility. No clue what it takes to provide potable water? Not just for drinking, but for fire stations? You can, of course, kiss what's left of our forests goodbye. No wonder the Republicans want to take the Redwoods now. With your plans, we'll be cutting them down anyways to house your pipe dreams.

[benburch]

83. Actually, I know ALL about that.

It's not my fault that you lack the vision to keep the American Dream alive, and would rather act like an "I've Got Mine" Republican, but I will say that I think that your position in not only unethical, but immoral.

[Inland]

101. What's your vision besides letting everyone in?

None, really. You assume there will be jobs. You assume that there is going to be a polity that will support them with wage and labor laws. You assume they will get a piece of Conneticut to live in.

And most ridiculous of all, you assume that they aren't going to vote to close the fucking door right after them. Fact is, you don't know a damn thing about the people who would immigrate except that they would want to come.

Having boiled the american dream down to coming to a geographical place, you have no idea what comes after letting in populations that have never voted, never given women equal rights, have caste systems, have engaged in genocidal warfare and ethnic cleansing...yes, even if they are a minority of the six billion souls out there, they still exist, and you would let them in just like that, tens of millions at a time.

But you think that they are all going to become believers in liberal democracy out of gratitude.

That's not vision. That's just a ridiculously thin hope for the best. I don't care to gamble either the lives of Americans OR the lives of potential immigrants on that sort of experiment.

[The Backlash Cometh]

103. Good post.

[Inland]

105. Just good enough to get no response.

My journal is full of them.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Inland/29

[The Backlash Cometh]

106. Your post is logical, while his is emotive. How can he debate you

on this? You both are right for different reasons. His is the morally feel good answer. Yours is the answer of a realist.

I wish, I really wish that things were different than they are today and we had a huge wilderness to tame where settlers could go and test their luck with fate to find land to farm. But, I think the day that we can allow unlimited settlers into this country without taking notice of the Indians and bison we kill along the way, is gone forever. There are consequences to every decision we make, and those who want open borders, need to be prepared to find a solution to every other problem that they create because of it.

It's not like we're opposed to immigration. It's how my grandfather came in. For all I know, he may have been an illegal alien, though I've been told he came in on some worker's program during a time of war when they needed men working the fields. But once in, my grandfather was humble enough to follow the laws in this land and it was many, many years later before they granted him with citizenship. That's how it should be done. If you want to be an American, then earn the right by following the laws.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

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[benburch]

111. For your information,

I was out being a Citizen at an annual township meeting, and then working on the streaming infrastructure for Head On Radio Networks.

What the hell have YOU done for your country today, eh?

I'm betting not one blessed thing.

[Inland]

114. I'm taking people to school.

It's not as much as the hypothetical immigrant, but it's something.

[The Backlash Cometh]

118. Now I'm really worried.

Are you going to be representing the left on radio? Well, if you think you should get a more balanced view before you do such an important job, you've come to the right place. We're here para servirle ha usted.

[benburch]

119. Deal with it.

I'm it. I own 10% of that network.

If you don't like it, start your own damned network.

http://www.headonradionetwork.com <--- Be afraid. Be very, very afraid.

[The Backlash Cometh]

127. Well, good luck to you, just the same.

[BeFree]

107. History tells us...

...immigrants to this country have taken to our freedom. So, looking back at history tells us that is quite likely to happen again. Immigrants have become believers in liberal democracy, in gratitude. America is an experiment that has had great success, and now that you are here you want to end that unique American experiment?

Besides, they are coming and you can't stop them, so we might as well make the best of what's gonna happen.

[Inland]

122. There hasn't been unilimited immigration for a long time.

Not since the steamship era. Just the accessibility has changed enough.

The assimilation of small groups isn't in doubt. But huge groups is NOT the unique American experiment. To say that they are going to become liberal democrats in gratitude is nonsense. They are going to have to be exposed to it by remaining a minority in a stable, liberal democratic society.

[benburch]

126. Look again.

I think we have had unlimited immigration on our southern border since at least the 1950s.

The only reason this has cause any problems at all is because of the illegal status of those immigrants.

[The Backlash Cometh]

129. Our economy is different than it once was.

Remember all that outsourcing? We don't have Americans moving up the ladder quite as quickly as they once did. That just means that we have no tax base to absorb these people.

[benburch]

131. Circular logic.

Protective tariffs is a part of my plan.

[The Backlash Cometh]

132. Where is the circularity in my logic?

Just point it out to me.

[Inland]

137. Looking again, and it's more clear.

First, thanks to Mexico's limits on immigration, even a porous US/Mexican border is nothing like the open immigration you suggest (Yes, it's true, Mexico doesn't realize that completely open borders is the goose that lays golden eggs.).

Second, while immigration laws are being weakly enforced by Bush refusing to go after employers, they are still having some effect in keeping people out.

Third, anyone who says that there's "no problem" simply has to define away the effect on wages and employment of Americans. What you mean is that there's no problem you care to address.

Fourth, we all know that even you don't think that a problem is "all because of the illegal status", because your answer is to make them legal AND institute a works program for them AND place enormous tariffs on manufactured goods. IOW, nobody, even you, thinks that JUST making them legal is solving anything.

[benburch]

108. I know for FACT there will be jobs.

I would institute protective tariffs (desperately needed anyway) that would ramp up each year until labor inputs are equalized, that is, if an American garment worker would cost $8.75 to make a particular shirt, and a chinese garment worker costs eleven cents, the eventual tariff will be $8.64 on that item. Such tariffs would fund health care and infrastructure improvements.

It is a simple equation, the more people you have in a country, the more goods and services need to be provided, and the more jobs there will be IF you do not tolerate competition from foreign sweatshops.

As for whether women get rights and etc. Those things are not optional here. All immigrants to this country have had to assimilate to that fact, and this would be no exception.

And I would NOT relax the citizenship requirements. If you want to be a citizen, and vote, you will have to pass the citizenship test, and you will have to learn what America entails.

We are at our very best when we are the most diverse. We are at our strongest when we assimilate other ideas.

Clearly you want a homogenized America for Americans Only, no "anchor babies", right? That puts you squarely in the GOP/Fascist camp.

[Inland]

113. Ridiculouser.

Making wealth through protective tariffs. Why didn't WE think of that? We'll just all make shirts for each other, and pay each other high prices. Where does the gold standard fit in?

You are, of course, confusing the *needs* of the greater population with the creation of wealth to *satisfy* that need. You've increased the need, all right: tens of millions will show up on our shores with nothing but the shirt on their back and no skills. They will need housing, need medical care, need policing, education, entire new towns. Your solution is to sell each other expensive essentials, and take the profit from it, thinking that somehow, then, nobody is going to notice that the government has essentially placed a huge tax on essentials.

What's worse, you've essentially assigned the huge new shirt price to TWO different needs. It's going to both pay a humane wage to everyone who wants a job. And it's going to build cities.

I guess all you have to do is assume that there is a limitless demand for shirts. But there's that assumption thingy again.

And strangely, while you don't want to give immigrants the vote, you think that americans are going to tax themselves like crazy to GIVE them the money for new cities. GIVE THEM THE MONEY. People aren't so stupid as to notice that your system of tariffs have created an inefficient method of transfer from their pocketbooks to someone else. The tactic of all the open border advocates is to make the person paying the price of immigration somebody unknown today, some guy who doesn't know he is going to lose his job. But really, you won't fool anybody. Americans are going to have to vote for this.

So you're in favor of people voluntarily giving away tons of money to anyone who wants it. Tell me, how many are informed that your plan assumes that they are going to pay for new cities out of their own pocket? And how many laugh in your face? Your plan doesn't just have assumptions: it assumes Jesus has come again and simply changed human nature.

Frankly, if I really wanted to be THAT charitable, I would pay for those improvements right there in the home country: I would build them their own shirt factory in their own town. But then I wouldn't get the satisfaction of calling a fellow American a GOP tool, like you. I could give them the same measly, watered down degenerate "American Dream" you talk about without making them leave home. To you, the "American Dream" is three squares and a flop and second class citizenship based on charity. I'd give them the factory and the city so they would ot have to rely on the continuing charitable impulses of the benburch's dream world. It's more humane and more likely to succeed than your Rube Goldberg tariff scheme of everyone getting rich by reaching into someone else's pocket. r it.

And you're statement about what is or is not negotiable is laughable, simply because your are telling it to me. Don't tell me, dude. Tell the tens of millions of strangers that show up and suddenly have opinions that means as much as you, that live in their own towns with their own police and their own sets of voters. You don't know shit about them, and to say that we are going to be stronger by assimilating their ideas is the weakest platitude I've heard.

Do I want an America for Americans only? I don't know. That seems a little extreme. But I do want there to be an America, based on the values enshrined in our polity, and you've got no idea what the country would be with a few dozen million strangers showing up, if that few. It's going to be more like those other places...you know, the places with sweatshops that you are cutting loose. I'm not going to risk America on that sort of shit.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Inland]

123. You probably know it's silly, anyway.

It just gives you the opportunity to pretend to be "more liberal than you" in just about any situation. Too bad it's just pretend. There's nothing liberal about fantasy and dream worlds and cotton candy castles. No immigrant or American is helped by that.

[Common Sense Party]

139. Great post. Thank God SOMEONE is talking common sense

about this issue.

I fear that the openborders faction will win out when drafting the party platform.

[Inland]

140. Just enough sense to not get a response.

Not one besides a "not for tariffs and unlimited immigration? You're a republican" response.

[Common Sense Party]

144. Yeah, crank up tariffs on everything the world produces.

That's worked really well in the past. /sarcasm

[The Backlash Cometh]

102. You know all about it? Start talking. Let's see your plan.

Where do we get the building materials to construct the housing for them? Where do we find land to build where they're close to jobs and other amenities? How do we pay for the public infra-structure, because they certainly aren't in any position to pay for any of this and Americans aren't going to raise their taxes for them. How do we improve our education system without raising taxes? How are you going to get them to their jobs when gasoline prices are going to soar?

Give us the plan and don't leave out details. Remember, you're not allowed to raise taxes to pay for any of it.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

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[The Backlash Cometh]

112. My God, you're quoting Cato!

God help you.

First, I asked you WHERE you're going to find building MATERIALS. You don't get materials from people. You get them from our forests. You see, the only answer is that you're going to have to clear cut your precious public forests. Okay, I'll buy that answer as long as you put an end to your environmentalist agenda. Assuming you have one.

Second, so you say you're going to raise taxes to resolve the extra infra-structure problems. Great, now you've given the Republicans a reason to hold onto their base for another ten years. Yes, I agree we will raise taxes in the wake of the Bush years, but I don't see how we can raise them for us and to pay for 12 million more who aren't really turning in their tax returns. This is a no win situation for you since the only people who will be willing to raise taxes for illegal immigrants are liberals, and there aren't enough of you. You will absolutely not get the cooperation of the rest of America on this one. Sorry, try again.

Third, let's talk about that work ethic. Don't you think it's duplicitous that Republicans like to call hispanics lazy, and yet, here is a free market club claiming they're hard workers? Who is right? Or more to the point, why would the CATO Institute claim that hispanics are hard workers when the Republican party stirs up their minions by claiming they're worthless? The answer is in a book called, "Confessions of an Economic Hitman." Not directly, but indirectly Perkins explained everything to me, because I understood after the first couple of chapters how powerful people profile and recruit other people to do their dirty work for them. I can apply what I learned from that book to our immigrant problem and I understand why they are so important to this country. It's because they have survived in some incredibly rugged situations that most Americans would find inhuman. Even you. So here you are applauding them, quoting Cato, when what you're really applauding them for is their ability to work under work situations that you would never approve of, and probably would march against if you fully understood.

So, it's not that we've lost our work ethic at all, it's just that after a generation or two, we lose our pliability to be exploited.

Anyway, there is hope. There are generations of Mexican Americans who are living the life of gypsies, but willing to pick your crops and they're already legal Americans. Read my journal to learn more about them. They do have federally subsidized housing so our system is taking care of them, except, that I can't imagine their wages are going to go up because people like you are more than willing to keep allowing more immigrants into this country who are willing to be exploited for less.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

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[QC]

121. Why would a corporate lapdog like Cato have anything to lose

by advocating cheap labor politics?

[The Backlash Cometh]

130. Bing, BING, Bing, Bing, BING! eom

[Inland]

117. "How can we make bricks without straw?"

I'm trying to figure out the sudden appearence of capital, land and other inputs that make someone productive. I know that somebody PAYS for it. I just can't figure out who, and that is, of course, the main attraction of the plan. Somebody pays, but everyone is able to think it's someone else.

[Poppyseedman]

45. Look across the big pond to Europe

and everybody welcome is not reality.

We should have a very tall wall with a very big gate. Controlling the borders doesn't mean we should have no control at all

Even in the Ellis Island days of huge tides of immigrants we just didn't let ANYONE in.

[The Backlash Cometh]

51. On edit: There are culture wars that have occurred there.

It's not Polyannasville in Europe. Some people actually know there was fighting going on between Asian immigrants and the British, for example. We all need to wake up. Our side doesn't need to be dismissed as Bleeding heart liberals now that we're so close to regaining control of the Congress and Executive branch.

[Poppyseedman]

63. That was my point.

Massive immigration has long term consequences that are hard to foresee.

Open borders without regard to who actually comes in is tantamount to leaving your front door open and saying all are welcome.

Don't be pissed when your home turns into a crack house

Certain Europeans nations, I'm sure would love to turn the clock back and rethink their polices.

[The Backlash Cometh]

74. "Massive immigration has long term consequences that are hard to foresee."

I had to repeat that sentence of yours because it says it all. People on this board seem to be passionately in favor of open borders without fully understanding how it will have an impact on everything else they believe in.

Environmentalist cannot be good environmentalists if they don't recognize that over-population is a cause of most of their concerns regarding depleted forests, destroyed ecosystems and extinct species.

Animal right proponents must realize that these people have to be fed, and that many will come with their own idea of what constitutes food. i.e. dogs, cats and horses. I see that being a problem fifty years down the road if the Asian population overwhelms us if we have open borders. I mean, if you're going to have open borders with Mexico, why stop with just them?

Maybe this Immigration issue is to Liberals, the way Pro-life is to conservatives. Their heart is in the right place, but they're not considering the long term consequences.

[lastliberalintexas]

66. If you really want to drive wages down even further, then yes

the solution is open borders. An unlimited supply of labor, in any country, whether skilled or unskilled, union or not, means that livable wages quickly become a thing of the past.

I really don't understand why even some liberals seem to think that the answer to third world poverty is to bring the developed world's SOL down rather than bring theirs up. :crazy:

[benburch]

87. It would have exactly the opposite effect.

Legal Immigration has ALWAYS strengthened America. It is ONLY the illegal status of so many immigrants to the USA that causes wages to be lowered.

[Critters2]

115. Status doesn't matter

it's simple supply and demand. Too many workers will drive down wages. Did you miss that day in Econ 101?

[benburch]

124. You were the one not paying attention.

That assumes a zero sum game. This is not a zero sum game. In fact, it is an expanding sum game.

[LaurenG]

3. I hope you are putting this one in your journal

so I can find it again for reference later. I see no flames. :hi:

[GirlinContempt]

4. !!!!!

:thumbsup:

[rzemanfl]

5. Karl Rove is smiling. This issue is intended to drive people

"batshit crazy." The real issue is employers who disobey the laws now on the books with impunity. Immigrants are the gay marriage of 2006.

[The Backlash Cometh]

52. It's a real problem that demands a real solution.

Pushing this off as a Rovian maneuver is a great disservice.

[rzemanfl]

70. I don't think a person sitting at their computer expressing their

opinion can do anyone a "disservice." Think about this, why is this issue a matter of burning importance and urgency now, in the months leading up to an election, when last year the big issue was the life or death of a single brain dead woman?

[The Backlash Cometh]

76. When do you propose dealing with this issue?

When there are 13 million? 15 million? Does it LOOK like the Republicans have the upper hand on this issue? I don't think so. All the Dems have to do is remind everyone that they had a program in place before these idiot Republicans messed it up.

[rzemanfl]

84. When we no longer have a madman in the White House toying

with nuking Iran because "God tells him to."

[The Backlash Cometh]

85. 15 million it is.

[Horse with no Name]

6. I totally agree. n/t

[Cobalt Violet]

7. I lost my painting job to an illegal. So did all my coworkers.

So you only care about maids.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cobalt Violet]

12. Such sensitivity to the suffering of other. Your so mean, and you know it.

[matcom]

16. IF you are telling the truth i have some advice

take $20. buy some business card stock.

take $20. buy some ink for your printer.

print simple business cards.

go OUTSIDE. PASS them out.

bet you have 5-10 houses to paint within your first week.

that is what an ILLEGAL would do.

PEACE

[Berserker]

26. I agree 100%

take $20. buy some business card stock.

take $20. buy some ink for your printer.

print simple business cards.

go OUTSIDE. PASS them out.

bet you have 5-10 houses to paint within your first week.

that is what an ILLEGAL would do.
.................................................................
Oh but you forgot a few things...
Don't pay state taxes
Don't pay federal taxes
Don't pay into Social Security
Don't pay for schooling for contractors lic.
Don't pay for contractors Lic.
Don't pay for Insurance
Don't pay for or obtain builders permits
That is what and ILLEGAL would do.

[Cobalt Violet]

31. Some one took their mean pills today.

So your an expert on what an illegal would do because of your vast experience dealing with them.

[DIKB]

40. I can tell you for a FACT

What an Illegal would do. Trust me, they are working LEGITIMATE jobs, paying social security (under someone else's name), paying taxes and mingle with the average legal working folk. A number of people are facilitating this, not just the companies, but lazy citizens who SELL their social security number, and when it comes under scrutiny, they claim "Identity theft."

Sadly the house-painting situation is a harder one to track and hold people accountable for. Going after these would be like trying to kill an ant-bed by squishing them one at a time.

[Cobalt Violet]

29. This was a couple of years ago.

I've moved on with a lot of struggle and a lesson learned well. But I will never forget the impact on my co workers and their families. All of the those families split to pieces. And all of them lost everything. I will never turn on these people. I can't forget how destroyed those kids were.

[freeplessinseattle]

56. Right on! I am sooo tired of the whining

besides, those that prefer to hire cheap labor that is easier to boss around and exploit probably wouldn't be that great to work for anyway.

[Cobalt Violet]

95. I'm tired of mean spirited condescending people.

Some people have to take the job they have to take.

[Inland]

92. I've got better advice.

When you get the five to ten houses, hire some dirt cheap illegals to paint them for you. Keep the profits and drive the American competitors right out of fucking business.

After all, that's how people put her out of her job in the first place.

Having given her this advice, I have fulfilled all of my obligations to her as a fellow American and can now wash my hands of her problem with a wave and a smile.

[SammyWinstonJack]

21. !

:hug:

[prolesunited]

17. No, you lost your job to an employer willing to break the law

and a federal government unwilling to increase fines and take legal action against companies that break the rules. When it becomes MORE expensive to hire illegals because of fines, court costs and other penalties than employing them, Americans will stop losing opportunities.

They didn't "steal" your job. Your unethical, unscrupulous and morally bankrupt company took it away from you and GAVE it to them!

BTW, Matt, :yourock: I can't believe the shit I've been reading here this week.

On edit: What exactly is stopping you from painting? You probably would even make more money if you ran the show.

[Cobalt Violet]

38. I gave up painting because I never wanted to go through that again.

Is that okay with you? I couldn't wait for all your "when"s to go into effect.

[matcom]

42. gosh. my brother in law OWNS a painting company

yeah, he is a high-school dropout and is a MORAN but HE now has 40 painters working for him and about 5 BUILDER contracts (does ALL the painting for new subdivisions)

makes about $100k more than THIS college educated IT guy.

glad you got out of the business because of the "Illegals" though. :eyes:

[mzmolly]

49. Does your brother hire illegals?

?

[matcom]

62. nope

all the idiot kids from his high school. they are all in their 40's now and all making around 50k as PAINTERS

:eyes:

try another angle

[mzmolly]

69. Well, I'm sure he could hire illegals to work for about 10K vs. 50K

and not even have to pay benefits. Again all while strengthening our economy - it's a win/win, right? So, why not suggest he fire his buddies and hire those who REALLY the need work while saving a buck at the same time? :sarcasm:

Angle? I'm not trying an angle, I'm suggesting that people need to play the record through. If illegals were heavily penetrating the IT field and working for 3$ an hour sans benefits, you might feel a bit differently, no?

We have to look for solutions where everybody wins.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

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[mzmolly]

79. I'll show you a picture of my family and then you can decide if I'm a

racist. I suggest the racists are those who suggest it's ok to exploit brown human beings so they themselves can save a buck.

I'd rather see open borders than a second class worker program that further divides the classes.

Stooping to calling me a racist means you've run out of logic. I'm not surprised.

BTW, I am not anti-immigrant/immigration, I'm anti-exploitation. I say hire illegals and pay them MORE if there are truly jobs Americans won't do, but that's not really the case.

[Jim Warren]

75. Nail, meet hammer

"If illegals were heavilly penetrating the IT field and working for 3$ an hour sans benefits, you might feel a bit differently, no?"

Ouch!

[Cobalt Violet]

98. It's only a matter of time.

That's coming too.

[Nobody]

147. Ouch is right. Let's go to my Wayback Machine

I used to work in IT. Guess what happened to my job? Two things:

1: There were a lot of "companies" flooding the Internet marketplace with bogus companies with nothing more than a name, a cool website, and slick sales people. Dot Com, anyone? I remember mentioning it to people back in 1999: How can they make money when they're not really selling anything? Friend of mine jokingly suggested I start a business called "Optimal Synergy, for all of your tele-datamining needs" (Basically it was a fancy way to say "web surfing on your dime". This was a joke and we never did it. I may be misremembering the exact string of industry buzzwords. Of course Dot Com went Dot Bust. No surprise there.

But read on for number two...

2: Companies didn't want to pay American workers wages they'd need to survive in America's economy. So guess what happened? Company after company began laying off entire departments and hiring people to do the same job for pennies a day in third world countries. The people there may or may not speak English (Dell outsourced to a non-English speaking country and even right wingers in favor of outsourcing screamed) They litterally took jobs away from those already doing them and GAVE THEM AWAY to other people. It's the corporations' fault. When all the Dot Bust former employees were looking, the former tech support people were looking, and then business dropped off for me in my deskside support job, there would be one opening and 500 people applying for it. I saw the stacks of resumes next to interviewers' desks.

And I suppose we can add 2.5 here which may or may not be a symptom as well: Executives are giving themselves huge fat raises and bonuses for saving money by laying people off. Ever notice when there are layoffs, the stock rises?

There is also a culture here in America that resents it when someone who isn't of the elite can afford a few extras. That was what was happening in the 90s. The people at the end of the buffet line were getting to eat and go for seconds.

[Cobalt Violet]

97. I wonder how many female painters he employees too.

These jobs aren't that easy to get if your female. But I'm sure the pack of jackals will soon argue that point with me, as if they would know better.

[lumberjack_jeff]

128. And how would he compete if he "ran the show" with citizens? n/t

[prolesunited]

133. People like you would hire her, of course

There's plenty of people willing to support the American worker.

For example, I don't shop at Wal-Mart and support local businesses and tend to avoid chain restaurants, even if it costs a little more.

[lumberjack_jeff]

135. No, the lowest bidder almost always gets the job.

The vast majority of people won't trade off the direct harm (higher cost) for the indirect harm (eroding the pay for the average worker).

The belief that consumers will spend more to promote collective welfare is a fantasy. Boycotts don't work unless the consumer is being asked to prefer one product/service over an equally expensive alternative.

This isn't a job for the market to take care of, it's a job for the government.

[spag68]

22. lost job

I need not ask if you are a union painter, if you were you would have someone to at least back you up. People don't understand that the union is not just a bargaining agent, but also a force to keep employers from doing things that undercut the workers. As we all know an employer if allowed will always take any advantage of workers they can. Don't blame the workers, it is the corporations that we need to target.

[judaspriestess]

146. there are alot of Illegals in the unions

with their fake socials or TAX ID earning good fucking money

[Ksec]

77. Lets take construction for an example

I lived in Texas a few years ago and construction jobs were everywhere. You could easily make 12 bucks an hour as a labor on any site. Fastfoward to today. The construction business wages have plumetted because of illegals willing to undercut established wages set by the citizens of this country. Now if you work a construction job you better be prepared to take less than what was paid ten years ago or you wont work.

The mass migration of illegals has saturated the market and besides the undercutting, you have a supply and demand situation. Thats whats happening all over this country where the illegals have migrated to. Also the crime rates in these areas has skyrocketed and Ive read reports of jails overflowing with illegal aliens who worked really hard at gang bangin. This crapola about all illegals being honest and hard working is like saying all blacks like watermelons/

[mzmolly]

86. Also, those who break the law by hiring illegals benefit as they get

the contracts. When we had our roof done, our insurance company got the bids and hired the company who did the work. There wasn't one legal worker among the bunch. The company claimed otherwise, but the workers told me different. Essentially, the roofing companies who offered a living wage plus benefits were undercut and those who did not - were rewarded. Something is freaking back-wards.

Do I think it's horrible that people are so desperate in Mexico that they will die crossing the border for a pittance? HELL YEAH! Do I have compassion for these people? HELL YEAH! But, I also have compassion for Americans who now live in their cars, under a bridge or in desperate conditions because they can't make ends meet. Who deserves our greater sympathy? I can't decide, personally.

We have to find ways to help all people out of despair and this BS mantra "Americans won't do X" is beyond maddening. Americans will do anything if they can make a living and provide health care to their families.

I think we need to address national health care before we suggest a mass guest worker program. That would ease the burden of employers, Americans and immigrants - legal or otherwise. I think with Bush calling for legislation we should take our chances and add health care provisions and a strong living wage to any such legislation. Let's go for broke. ;)

[Cobalt Violet]

90. I'm really ashamed at how condescending some here are...

Toward the plight of American working people. They just make themselves look like the drunken fools they are.

[RagingInMiami]

9. Thanks

[MichiganVote]

11. Nothing..I repeat, nothing is going to happen this year w/legislation

In the meantime, we have a bogus war, we're being taxed at exorbitant rates while cor's get away with murder, and the US dollar is teetering......

Why oh why are we worrying about this now?

[endarkenment]

13. Thank you. nt.

[spag68]

14. The rethugs

seem to have forgotten that we are all immigrants or descendants of same. You are absolutely right that this is a classic case of labors struggle for fair and livable wages for everyone. Yes it is another of the rethugs wedge issues, but this one will backfire on them as the wedge is in their own party. I have seen little if any racist comments on this site and if you wish to leave so be it. This site is an open forum and doesn't censure discussion that is civil nor should they. I for one am glad to have the opportunity to voice my opinions and I am old enough to remember the civil rights movement,I was in it. I remember the warnings about the military industrial complex From Ike. Don't give up, we fight and argue, but in the end I think we all have honorable and legitimate goals. By the way, I lived and worked in Miami in the 60s, and saw the influx of mariel boat people. They got many advantages that these others don't get, and they took jobs. I cant't hate them for that, I just had to get another job.

[Jim Warren]

18. Bat-shit crazy flame bait

:nopity:

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HEyHEY]

27. and you fell for it, jimmy!

[leftstreet]

23. Pffft

:eyes:

Thanks for solving the complicated issue of immigration reform. We'll all just send emails to please_get_rid_of_nafta@@corporatecongress.orgy and that should take care of it.

Beating up people for beating each other up.
:eyes:

[SammyWinstonJack]

39. !

:spray: please_get_rid_of_nafta@@corporatecongress.orgy :rofl: :rofl:

[lastliberalintexas]

57. *snort*

please_get_rid_of_nafta@@corporatecongress.orgy


Don't know if the y at the end was intentional or not, but it was priceless. :)

[HEyHEY]

24. Awesome dude!

Oh, and you WILL see flames...see my thread on this issue? Oy!

[hunter]

65. Let undocumented workers join the Union!

Damn straight.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

25. Spot on. K&R n/t

[MADem]

28. I can't get behind blaming people who are hungry and want work

If people feel that they want to get serious about the security of the borders because of terror concerns, or what have you, there's an easy way to slow the flood to a trickle. Simply mandate a five to ten year prison sentence for anyone who employs an undocumented worker, and fine them a minimum of a hundred grand. No exceptions.

If that requires that employers do a little more checking when someone with a shortage of documents turns up, so be it--let them deduct the expense on their income taxes, with verification. Where did you go to high school? Let's send away for that diploma verification! Make them sign a form and pay a fee if the government won't do it for free, and have the employer send away to the state registry for the stamped birth certificate direct from the state, not a bedraggled copy from the prospective employee. The government should establish a database, so employers can send in requests to verify that social security numbers match names. The states should allow employers to send in a form to verify that the person applying for the job matches the person on the license they provide as ID, and to verify that the license is, in fact, real and not a clever forgery. The INS should provide verification to employers of green cards as well. All this shit costs money--but if they are serious, and not just punitive, they'll do it.

These poor bastards aren't here for the scenery. They want to eat, they want to live, they want a better life for their families. They're here because they have a better shot at making a wage to support their family. If that goes away, they aren't going to leap for joy at the prospect of being unemployed in a less than friendly land.

I think punishing people for taking opportunity is just mean spirited. Everyone turned a blind eye, for YEARS, and never worried about this issue. They were more than happy to pay these people crappy wages, and get two for the price of one. The GOP plan seems to be blame the people who weren't considered a danger until now, who weren't stopped at the broken borders until now, but let the employers who exploit this cheap labor off scott free. There's something unfair about that to me.

I think the real reason they are doing this is because they see the economy tanking, and they need to move those folks out so they can have swell (read crappy) jobs for 'Murcans who have been laid off due to outsourcing, and who aren't likely to find gainful work otherwise. Pick up that broom, you former GM employee--your unemployment has run out!!

[lastliberalintexas]

60. I think that's a strawman, at least as it applies to

the vast majority of DUers. People here are worried about the effect on wages, I've not seen many posts wanting to deport the people already here or hating on them just because the majority of the demonstrators have been of Central and South American origin.

Are the racists out in full force on radio, tv, etc. arguing against amnesty because they mistakenly think every illegal immigrant in this country is Mexican? Yeppers, no doubt. But there are real, legitimate labor concerns that keep getting brushed aside in these discussions with accusations of racism, nationalism and the like.

It's a complicated, emotional issue. The fact that it affects the average American (in terms of being one reason wage stagflation) makes it that much harder for people to discuss in rational ways.

[nonconformist]

88. Exactly. nt

[mzmolly]

91. Absolutely correct.

:hi:

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

142. The database you're asking for already

exists. As an HR person, I can tell you that every employer is supposed to get more than one form of ID and we are supposed to be checking that the SS #, gender and birth date match the name on the SS website (or by calling SS Admin). WHen W2-s are submitted, they better match or else we'll hear back from the SSA

So why does this not work? Because employers who want to get cheaper labor bypass the system. They pay under the table. The immigrant worker doesn't care -they are getting the cash. So this meme about how they are paying their taxes doesn't pass the smell test with me.

Why not increase the quotas if there are jobs available? Why not have legal immigrants come into the country to take those jobs? Sounds logical to me. Why doesn't that fly ? Because companies want the cheap labor and not have to pay for health care and other benefits. They want to undercut the decent wages that the American workers (children of legal immigrants) have fought for.

That's my take on it


edited for typos

[Solly Mack]

30. :)

:D

[Coastie for Truth]

33. The thing that is making me crazy

is that three of my four grandparents were "illegals" from Czarist Russia -- and now that Sensenbrenner and Tancrato are talking about both:

1. Getting rid of "birth right citizenship", and
2. Deporting all of the illegals

does that mean their descendants will lose "birth right citizenship" and be sent back?

<>

<>


<><><>

<><><>

[BrklynLiberal]

34. kick and recommended

[tjwash]

35. Yes.

It disturbs me to no end as well.

It is happening in the real world with people that I know personally.

This whole issue, brings out an ugly side of people, that I had NO idea they even had. And these are people that I have known for years. I heard someone the other day use the phrase "those people" and "their type."

It just blew me away to even hear it coming from this particular person, because until them I thought I knew them.

[Balbus]

36. You have an amazing knack to look at all issues as if you were

looking through the eyes of a five-year-old. Must be wonderful to live in such naivete and ignorance.

[ghostsofgiants]

68. Ad hominem-riffic.

:thumbsup:

[Der Blaue Engel]

37. Amen, Matcom

This place is disgusting me lately. Rove is laughing his fat ass off somewhere.

[Pryderi]

41. We do have legal immigration. Why not just increase the quotas

and make them come in legally? The baby-boom generation is retiring soon, and we could use law-abiding taxpayers to take their place.

[Cleita]

53. Because it makes too much sense.

Yes, increasing the quotas would be a simple solution to relieve the pressure until a long term solution can be found that looks to the future.

[Strelnikov_]

71. Because That Would Crash The Labor Black Market The Corporatists

and cheap labor types count on.

It's a lot harder to exploit documented workers.

[Kansas Wyatt]

80. Why bother with gaining entry the legal way with increased quotas?

Why Hell, they can do it illegally, and send word to all of their fellow illegals, so they can take over job categories that, allegedly, 'Americans won't do.' Like, construction (all crafts), factory workers, mechanics, landscaping, service workers, labor jobs, and agriculture. Fucking fat lazy ass Americans don't want to get their hands dirty and work, so these fine upstanding hard working model people, who only started out on the wrong foot breaking our laws, are more than happy to do a good job for Boss-man without any petty conditions. Too bad lazy ass American, pull yourself up by your boot-straps now and compete with an illegal for a minimum wage job to support your family. :sarcasm:

Anyone advocating for legalizing the illegals and unchecked immigration has NO credibility at all, unless they are willing to give up their their job, income, job prospects, economic future, hope, and all they will ever have for their cause, just like millions of working class people have already been forced to give up, due to the unchecked and unenforced illegal immigration.

Meanwhile, the Democratic Party can keep wondering why so many working class people vote against their economic best interests, while the working people hear the Republican rhetoric about getting tough on illegals.

[Pryderi]

100. I didn't say anything about legalizing illegal immigrants. For every

legal immigrant that comes over, we send an illegal immigrant back. Just a thought.

[The Backlash Cometh]

43. Matcom. How many Cubans are coming in each year vs. Mexicans?

You have so many holes in your emotive argument you're going to lose. Nobody here is saying that we should close our borders completely. The Dems had a great controlled immigration program in place before the Repubs brought chaos to our country. And most would probably agree with amnesty to the 12 mill who are here. But the fight is on with open borders and when they use ridiculous slogans.

Washing dishes is one thing, pulling crops is also one thing, but claiming to be the only work force that can build a wall?! Please. How many Mexicans did it take to build the Empire State Building? Maybe we should ask Mencia's ass since I hear it's a smart one.

And with this, "Who are you calling immigrant, pilgrim" or "The only real American is an American Indian," what do they mean by that? Does it mean they won't accept the U.S. as a sovereign nation? After they break the immigration law, what other law do you suggest they can break too?

Going back to my original sentence, do we have open borders for Mexicans only, or should we include the Asians and other South Americans with a free pass too? Should we just throw up our arms and clear cut our forest so we can get enough lumber to construct homes for them? Stop worrying about clean water because we certainly can't count on providing clean water to the exploding population you're suggesting. It goes on an on. Think this one through or you're no better than a Republican.

[mzmolly]

44. Spare me the lecture.

My mother has cleaned nursing homes/hotels and my step father worked construction - you are out of touch with the working poor. Tell me the poor people of New Orleans wouldn't take a decent paying job with benefits if it meant cleaning a hotel.

Can anyone share how having a low paid/exploited work force helps the economy? If so, I suggest you ask for a pay cut and a reduction in benefits on the double!

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

46. Kicked again.

[babylonsister]

47. No flames from me, matcom!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[DaveJ]

50. I'm concerned about just one thing...

This topic appeases the corporations who take unfair advantage of the undocumented.

Including myself, a lot of people involved in this debate are simply saying that it should be easier for them to come here legally.

It's difficult to be so dogmatic about the illegal immigration situation to ignore the very real dangers and side effects. This is not the fault of the immigrants, but with the government who puts in place a system that forces people to come here illegally, and then takes advantage of their resulting clandestine lifestyle.

The immigration system simply needs to be streamlined, but I do not agree that we should ignore their illegal status.

[mzmolly]

55. Agreed.

Dogma on either side of this debate is not rational.

It's not realistic/humane to say that we should arrest/deport everyone here illegally. It's also not realistic to suggest that exploited workers are good for America/Americans who happen to be among the working poor.

[Disturbed]

67. *The following was posted by pat_k.

Illegal Immigration

*The following was posted by pat_k.

Controlling our borders isn't really about control; it's about values

"Controlling our borders" means more than erecting barriers or patrolling. Controlling our borders is about making a commitment to act in a manner that is consistent with our values.

When we set employment standards we are expressing our values. Those standards reflect our belief that all human beings have a right to be treated fairly.

As long as we allow ANY workers to be exploited within our borders, we disgrace ourselves. As long as we turn a blind eye to the violations committed by people who enter illegally or remain after their visa expires, we demonstrate hypocrisy.

Guest worker programs have a place, but too often; such programs have been used to give employers a ticket to pay substandard wages and subject workers to unsafe conditions. We cannot tolerate programs that set different standards for "guests."

To be consistent with American values, we need to "just say no" to the exploitation workers -- documented or not. Continuing to permit predatory employers to operate within our borders will only drive more and more of Us and "Them" into poverty.

Controlling our borders with the stroke of a pen

Building a wall takes time. We don't need to wait. We can effectively control immigration with the stroke of a pen by passing legislation that includes two basic elements:
Going after predatory employers.
Offering a path to citizenship for whistleblowers and their families.

Specifically:
Expand the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) to cover every business and individual employer, whether they employ documented or undocumented workers.
Conditions and terms of employment must meet FLSA and safety requirements for any wage earner who meets the criteria that would require reporting under IRS rules (e.g, the IRS threshold this year is $1500 for most of work).
Criminalize predatory employment practices.
Predatory employers who are violating FLSA, violating OSHA standards, and evading taxes must be subject to prosecution and mandatory prison time.
Whistleblower immigration amnesty.
Clear processes for workers to report predatory employers and maintain anonymity throughout the course of investigation. Whistleblowers who are undocumented (whether an individual or a group) are offered a path to citizenship.
Increase resources and create special units as required
Affected agencies would include the Dept of Labor Wage and Hour Division, Dept of Justice, OSHA, IRS, and INS. The Wage and Hour Division is probably the logical agency to oversee the handling of charges against predatory employers, including preliminary investigation, referral to Justice for investigation and prosecution, referral to IRS, and coordination with INS to process undocumented whistleblowers and other undocumented workers.”

Making implicit costs explicit

“The harmful effects of supporting an underground economy are costly to the nation. When we "just say no" to the exploitation workers, some implicit costs will be made explicit. Americans have a choice. We can invest our tax dollars to our common benefit, or bear the costs -- both moral and monetary -- of exploiting other human beings.

If we choose make predatory employers the prime target, we can ensure the survival of vital "underground economy" sectors by providing transitional supports. We can offset increased costs of goods or services to the working class through tax credits. (Should be part of shifting the costs of citizenship from those who benefit the least from our common infrastructure to those who benefit the most.)”

Radically changing the rules of the game

“If predatory employers faced serious penalties, and the undocumented workers they are exploiting benefited from blowing the whistle, we would significantly increase the risk of exploiting workers.

The threat of exposure and prosecution alone will be sufficient for many to revamp their operations. In some sectors, the predators may simply move operations offshore. In others, predators may be forced out of business. As noted above, it may serve the public interest to provide transition assistance or start up assistance for replacement businesses.

Undoubtedly, a significant percent of undocumented workers would continue to evade detection, but employers would be far less likely to exploit them. If the workers are making a fair wage, the "race to the bottom" has a lower limit and the negative effect on wages is reduced.”

We have a right enforce immigration law and deport violators

“There are situations in which our interests are best served by providing an alternative to deportation. Nevertheless, if it does not serve a public interest to provide an alternative we should not hesitate to deport those who violate immigration laws.

We have a right to enforce our immigration laws. When we shift our focus to predatory employers, we are not forfeiting that right.

Offering legal status to whistleblowers serves us in two vital ways -- it deters predatory employers and it gives authorities vital resources "on the ground" who are motivated to expose those who are not deterred.

Targeting predatory employers creates a new class of unemployable undocumented workers If we do not institute a program that offers an opportunity to achieve legal (employable) status to those who are displaced, the deportation and support costs are likely to rise to intolerable levels.

If we decide that minimizing competition for jobs is worth the costs associated with deportation, the number of families who are offered legal status could be limited by entering those who qualify a "lottery" of sorts. It may seem harsh to allow chance to determine who stays and who goes, but deportation must remain the default consequence of breaking our immigration laws.”

First things first

We can't begin to make progress until we impeach Bush and Cheney and purge the new American fascists from our public institutions ((Impeachment First)). Only then can we effectively engage in the messy -- but democratic -- process of dealing with this and other critical problems.

Conclusion

“Our underground economy makes the United States very attractive to people who are struggling to survive in their own countries. We can change the dynamics right now and virtually eliminate the underground economy, and in the process, minimize the incentive to enter this country unlawfully.

Saying no to the exploitation of workers is central to controlling our borders. Radically changing the rules of the game makes other aspects of controlling immigration more manageable, but it does not eliminate the need for them. We still need to do a better job of tracking the foreign nationals who come here to work, study, or visit. We still need to make our border with Mexico as impenetrable as possible, while weighing the costs against the benefits.

We cannot continue to hypocritically turn a blind eye to violations of our immigration laws or tolerate the exploitation of workers within our borders. As is often the case, committing to enacting and enforcing laws that that reflect our values is not just the right thing to do, it ultimately serves the common good.”

Posted by: pat_k

[rman]

78. Whatever legislation gets passed,

it will benefit the corporations and the wealthy - until such a time when we have reclaimed our self-governance.

[AngryAmish]

54. I was hoping this could be a rational discussion

I know, I'm stupid.

But I thought there could be a national argument and the best ideas would win. I happened to agree with the Kennedy/McCain bill. If the border is more secure yet we allow a current amnesty for folks who have come here illegally but were good folks once they got here was reasonable. Then allow guest workers in and make sure if they overstay they get caught.

I think there has been a lot of nativist thought (I'm not ready to call anti-immigrants racists although many are).

If there could be a rational debate and we find out where the American people stand then that would be the law. That is supposed to be the way it works. But now it won't and we will all be screwed.

[Cleita]

58. I think the Canadians have the best answer.

They help their third world country immigrants to cope in the new country because they believe it's better for everyone that way.

Instead of exploiting and hating the third world country people who only want to work here, give them some help, so they can help themselves.

If they are afraid to go to the law when they are abused and exploited, then the abuse and exploitation will continue and that isn't good for anyone.

[Mikimouse]

81. You make an interesting point, and...

it prompted me to think of more possibilities. There are probably more issues at stake than merely the slippery issue of employment. Some are probably (albeit, probably unconsciously) afraid that the political machine could become altered by a large influx of 'outsiders'. I wonder if we will have a new set of laws, relative to equal rights, called the Jaime Cuervo Laws?

[Ksec]

59. your quote

A GOOD Liberal would fight for a fair wage, and HUMANITY for these people."

Liberals have never advocated open borders. NeoLiberals do.

So can the good Liberal propaganda. Real Liberals do not advocate an open border policy. NeoLiberals do.

[girl gone mad]

61. Do you really think that...

it helps our economy to have a huge pool of labor earning below mimimum wage? This is work force accustomed to an inferior quality of life and they are being exploited by business owners.

It's no coincidence that the jobs they do are so labor intensive. U.S. business owners take advantage of the fact that illegal immigrants with limited options will do back-breaking work for long hours. Many of the immigrants end up with long term health problems as a result. These jobs weren't always so demanding or low-paying.

Are you really suggesting that we should work harder, at the expense of our own health and quality of life, to compete for wages that wouldn't begin to cover our cost of living?

[matcom]

64. wow. reading is FUNDAMENTAL

i am telling YOU to FIGHT for FAIR wages rather than allowing corporations to pay them shit.

sorry. too late in the evening for me to spell it out further :eyes:

[Cobalt Violet]

99. Appently most of the "Lexus liberals" do.

[Inland]

104. No, he thinks that he can give you the "solution"

by giving you an impossible task. That is, HE'LL let in tens of millions of desparate foreigners, and YOU'LL have the job of making sure that nobody takes advantage of their isolation and desparation to give them wages that undercut those of persons already here by raising, and enforcing, a higher minimum wage.

Of course, one could ask if we could raise and enforce the higher minimum wage NOW without the added problem of millions of additional desparate immigrants, just to see if it could be done. We could ask the open borders advocates to prepare the way by putting those laws in place for those immigrants that are legal, and Americans, before an influx of new immigrants. But that would be racist, apparently.

[sandnsea]

72. 90% right, EXCEPT

Yes, illegals do take jobs US citizens do. Sorry, Matcom, just because you don't do manual labor doesn't mean others don't. Every one of my sons has a job, or has had a job, that an UW would do for less money.

I don't blame the UW's. The answer is to fight for eveything else you mentioned, in every country in the world. Stop letting the corporations exploit workers anywhere.

This is no different than any other time the ruling class has pitted workers against each other. It is stunning to me that so many DUers don't get that.

Although, I haven't seen some of these folks around here very often either. Hmmm.

[ismnotwasm]

82. Right on Matcom

I've been staying out of these immigration threads for the most part. It's become so ridiculously fucked up I'm having kinder and more productive conversations about immigration policies and solutions a few of the my near-fundie (not quite fundie, but very Christian and mostly conservative) co-workers with than some of the shit I'm seeing at DU.

I LIVE in a neighborhood of immigrants. And all I'll say is that it goes much further that idiotic statements like "lets build a wall along our borders" 29 Chinese nationals were caught in ONE wharf container in Seattle. Think ol' Homeland security is doing it's job now?

Illegal Immigration is more than south of the border.
CAFTA and NAFTA are travesties. You're "jobs" are being sent overseas or to other countries. The employer's don't won't to deal with unions, or minimum wage or benefits that cut into profit.
Start putting blame where it belongs, start fighting where it matters.

[Jigarotta]

89. if NAFTA, CAFTA, ad nauseum, makes borderless corporate greed easy

then why the HELL are we ragging on people just trying to make a living.

No Borders should work for Everyone, not just the yacht clubbing warmongering 1 percenters.

[Zorra]

93. Uncontrolled immigration sucks...believe us, we've been there...

[EFerrari]

94. I love that image. I gave it on a t-shirt to both my sons

at Christmas. :thumbsup:

[Inland]

96. And according to your post, it's made us evil too.

Oh, and racists, and not liberals, and all sorts of bad.

The only thing your post is missing is the reason why you think so.

[Catherine Vincent]

125. A quick look at your post appears to be bat-shit crazy looking.

I'm just saying. :evilgrin:

[AlphaCentauri]

134. on the other hand who is willing to pay 215b for massive deportations?

Officials at the Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency, which would be responsible for deportations, said they have no projections on what it would take to rid the United States of an estimated 12 million people.

But the nonpartisan Washington-based Center for American Progress research group has put the cost at $215 billion over five years.

The study assumed that a crackdown would prompt a quarter of the nation's illegal immigrants to leave voluntarily, leaving 9 million men, women and children to deport.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060408/REPOSITORY/604080322/1013/48HOURS

[GeorgeGist]

136. Obviously...

and you're proof of it. But then that's the intent of this batshit issue.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

138. Thanks for that. Enough US-AND-THEM crap in freeperville.

[VelmaD]

141. I've mostly stayed out of these threads...

but I just wanted to chime in here to tell you I love ya. *smooch* :yourock: You keep right on ranting whenever you feel the need. Even those times when I don't agree with you...your rants always stir things up.

[LincolnMcGrath]

143. Survey Says............Hogwash

I am really tired of hearing from so - called progressives that "Brown skinned folks have a special hard work gene".

It is no different then saying "Black folks have an extra muscle in there leg, for jumping higher".

What greater insult can one besmirch working folks of every nation and all walks of life, I cannot know.

Does anyone here honestly think a latino construction worker in Florida puts in a longer, rougher day than a Tamang farmer from the Himalayan foothills of Nepal? Get real Brothers and Sisters!

[judaspriestess]

145. Oh hell Fuckin A

where was I all dang day!!

Karl Rove is really truly a genious, disgusting to say.


America would come to a screeching halt without our "illegals" I too am fucking fed up with the hate that is resonating on this issue. Why wasn't it brought up before? Because it wasn't an issue until your daddy karl made it one.