Freeptard doesn't believe in science, what should I do?

[pimpbot]

I'm debating a freeper on a neutral forum about Intelligent Design vs. evolution. Heres what he said when we mentioned how old some of the fossils are:

"Anybody know how they measure how old things are because I'm at a loss to see how they do that.
I read back a few post's that scientists "know" how old certain life forms are on earth and I was just wondering if they had a cheap million or billion meter they would sell.

That has always made me laugh when the so called educated scientist's could spout out that this so and so dates back 13 million years. LMAO

So, how do they measure that, anyone know, seriously?"


----

Response:

I don't think that they use a million billion meter but who knows maybe I am wrong. I think it is more like this.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/carbon-14.htm


-----

His response:

Yeah for stuff up 50 thousand years old or so but millions and billions must certainly be a huge guesstimate I'm thinkin.

I guess the problem I have with Scientist's is that they are in fact pupils of the all mighty dollar and will go to great lengths to keep their grant money flowing.

Science has become more about big business an less about facts. Who's your lobbyist, who's your daddy.

When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.

-----

Me back at him:

"Huh? did you even read the whole article?
Quote:
Because the half-life of carbon-14 is 5,700 years, it is only reliable for dating objects up to about 60,000 years old. However, the principle of carbon-14 dating applies to other isotopes as well. Potassium-40 is another radioactive element naturally found in your body and has a half-life of 1.3 billion years. Other useful radioisotopes for radioactive dating include Uranium -235 (half-life = 704 million years), Uranium -238 (half-life = 4.5 billion years), Thorium-232 (half-life = 14 billion years) and Rubidium-87 (half-life = 49 billion years).
"

-----

Him:

"I did read all of it and would like to just know how they can prove Potassium 40 has a half life of 1.3 billion years. Sorry I may sound like an idiot but I just don't buy all of what they are selling as word.

What if a radio active meteor shower took place 1 million years ago or 100 thousand years ago that the holy scientists know nothing of. What if the radiation from the sun has not been predictable for say more than 5000 years now, how would they know. How do they know the sun didn't gleam a purple hue and react much differently than it does today sum 20 thousand years ago."



So, I hope you all had a chuckle after reading through all that. I'm starting to look up links to how half life works and how we determine the structure of elements. I'm just wondering if its worth it. I mean, isn't this stuff what you're supposed to learn in school? Are people really this ignorant? I did some more searching, and I found a lot of ID websites that scoff at scientific proof. This whole thing just made me depressed that people think scientists are wackjobs who are fudging numbers for profit. I'd like to show this guy the light but I don't know how to open his eyes. :(

[Richard Steele]

1. You are wasting your time. Let it go.

You cannot TEACH anything to someone who utterly refuses to LEARN.

[pimpbot]

7. But he must have learned somewhere

I mean, I doubt he popped out as a baby and said "God created everything". I guess it is hard for me to understand how someone could grow up with a family like that. What do they do on science field trips, or lab experiments? Do they get a waiver for biology class?

[VTMechEngr]

29. It is a big Creation argument that God speed up the decay rates.

They claim that God speed the rates up during the great flood, despite the fact the the resulting energy released would have boiled off the Ocean and melted the planet. But it magic!:spank:

For the Record, I'm a Christian, but like most main-streamers, I don't take Genesis literally. I'm a proud supporter of science, Evolution, and a 4.6 Billion year-old Earth.

[mduffy31]

2. Move on

Remember what you grandfather told you, you can't argue with a fool.

[joeunderdog]

50. Punt. nt

[sinkingfeeling]

3. Answer: math

[spuddonna]

9. Yeah, that was going to be my answer too, but with these types...

...you'll eventually have to prove that math works and then the issue becomes "How much time do I want to waste on this?"

[pimpbot]

22. Exactly!!

In a different thread we were debating something else, and everytime I'd explain how something works or brought up a fact, their response would be "well okay, but then hows THAT work, etc".

Sooo fustrating! Its like talking with a little kid or something.

[spuddonna]

37. Well, in a way I guess they are...

I honestly think many of them don't have any foundation in science, scientific theory, or in deductive reasoning.

Makes for lots of headaches and this: :hangover:

[VTMechEngr]

41. A great real-life example is a Hot Potato ---

A hot potato begins to cool of rapidly, but as it gets closer to room temperature, it cools much more slowly, taking a shape like this:



Which just happens to be the same style of graph for Nuclear Decay. Imagine That! B-)

[Jeffersons Ghost]

4. you asked the right question at the right time

read this and kick it if you like it... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x906723

[KingFlorez]

5. Just them 'em alone

They are too dumb for their own good and it's no sense arguing with thing

[Dead_Parrot]

6. hop over to evcforum.net...

...and search the "dates and dating" forum - there's probably a post on this exact point. Although the proof for calculating half-lives requires more knowledge of nuclear physics and quantum theory than will fit in his head...

Good luck!

link

[pimpbot]

17. Wow great information

My current theory is to bury him with information and facts to the point he either admits I'm right or he starts flaming (usually what happens after providing freetards with facts in my experience).

[Dead_Parrot]

34. He'll flame and/or vanish...

...before admitting any error. Have fun, though :D

[IntravenousDemilo]

8. Well, you know, to his credit, at least he doesn't think the world is only

6,000 years old. That's a start, anyway.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

10. Ask him if he believes that nuclear weapons will work

Then explain that the same methodolgoy used to figure out how to make a bomb were used to figure out hold old fossils are.

Might get his attention. OTOH, you're probably wasting your time.

[cynatnite]

11. IF he read it, it flew over his head faster than the speed of sound

You won't open his eyes. Sorry...it's a lost cause, IMO.

[shraby]

12. The scientists have a good idea of how much

new dirt is laid down each year. This gives them a good measure of how long ago a volcano has erupted by how much earth is above the ash from the volcano, as well as any other geological event. By comparing one area with another using geology they can determine how long ago things happened. Also, using this method they have divided the earths history into ages with certain attributes comprising a certain age of the earth which is consistent world wide, i.e. the types of fossils found in a strata.
This is just a poor description of how it works but it's my understanding of the process of determining the age of fossils, etc.

[NoPasaran]

13. What should you do?

Argue with someone else.

[LiberalFighter]

14. Part of how they can determine age is with other known facts and dates

Same thing with determining the time and date of death of a person. They use the stage that a bug or larvae or other scientific method to determine it.


Or rule out or include a suspect in a crime because of time factor... if their alibi has them at a location and the crime occurred at another location. If the suspect has the time and means of getting to or from their alibi to or from the crime scene.

[Mz Pip]

15. How do you know

that water turns into ice? Because of observation and measurement.


Half life is meausrable. That's how they know. Just because freeptard doesn't know how to read the instruments doesn't mean that they are not accurate.

Using freeptards logic, he should never have open heart surgery because he probably doesn't understand how it works. :eyes:

Science is all about obervation and measurement. That's why it's not a theory but a fact.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[mark11727]

16. (He) "just don't buy all of what they are selling as word..."

...BUT the Universe being created in SIX days, or Earth being only 6000 years old, or Eve popping out of Adam's side ---- THAT HE CAN ACCEPT.

P.T. Barnum made a FORTUNE off people like him.

[geniph]

24. Well put

Talk about swallowing camels and choking on gnats!

[onehandle]

18. Walk away. nt

[DBoon]

19. Next time they are sick

tell them to see a faith healer instead of a doctor

[geniph]

20. "I don't understand it, therefore it must be magic!"

There's no getting through to someone like that. You're wasting your time.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You just waste your time and irritate the pig. Then again, sometimes it's fun to irritate the pigs.

[KyuzoGator]

21. The Opposite of Science is Republican.

Great bumper sticker.

[VTMechEngr]

23. Answer him this:

Radioactive decay follows the form of a natural Exponential equation as do many other phenomenons in nature. This equation form is used in Automobile suspensions, Vibration, and in many electrical devices that measure something. Sun rays or other factors would not affect the decay of an atoms via alpha, beta, or gamma radiation. The atoms decay because they want to get to a stable structure, and do so at a constant rate that can be measured. We know the equation form, so once we measure 2 points, even if only a year apart, we can plot the full equation and calculate the half-life

[pimpbot]

27. Thanks

BTW, does "VT" stand for Virginia Tech?

[VTMechEngr]

31. Yep

Graduated a few years back.

[pimpbot]

33. Cool me too

2002 CpE :)

[VTMechEngr]

36. Nice.

My Favorite experience was being a Pritchard RA. Unforgettable!

[Bonhomme Richard]

25. When you argue with a fool, there are two. n/t

[LiberalFighter]

26. Dupe Deleted

[dave123williams]

28. Your freeper friend.

"Sorry I may sound like an idiot but I just don't buy all of what they are selling as word."

Tell this guy that his supposition is correct. He's an idiot.

If you can determine the rate of decay, then you can project (mathematically) the age of an object (usually + or - fifty years or so) given the current state of a given isotope's....fuck it - your friend...he's never going to have the knowledge, even if he's shown why things work the way they do. He's got the healthy skeptcism of a scientist, but is disinterested in facts.

[donco6]

30. He's hopeless.

And Yes, some people are that ignorant.

[IdaBriggs]

32. Sell him a bridge, and send him a t-shirt:

"Ignorant Pig Fucking Farmers for Bush" -- you can pick one up very cheaply.

Tell him you don't WANT him to vote for anybody but Bush, and you want him to explain to EVERYONE how HE is a Bush supporter (because it makes our side look better). Thank him for his contributions to Democracy, and move on with your life.

Sometimes, seriously, its the only thing to do, and with those who are "whatever you say, I'll say the opposite" its the best way to convert them!

:evilgrin:

[mdmc]

35. give him VD.

There was a doonesbury toon where a doctor diagnosed a patient, and asks him if he believes in evolution. Patient asks why. Dr states that he can treat the disease as the virus agent that it had evolved in to or he could treat it with leaches and blood letting.

Freeps won't believe in science until they need it.

[graywarrior]

38. You beat me to it.

I was gonna say wait til he gets an infection.

[mdmc]

47. hey gw, I gave you a shout out in this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=4998244#5001022

Peace and low stress good lookin!

[graywarrior]

53. Hey! Thank you.

That's real nice.

[mdmc]

56. peace and low stress gw

:)

[graywarrior]

60. Back atcha, dude.

O8)

[wicket]

54. Or ask him if he gets a flu shot

Which is based on the virus evolving every year.

[karlrschneider]

39. End the discussion with something like this:

Ignorance is understandable, forgivable and curable, stupidity is not.

[kiki]

40. Jesus Tapdancing Christ (no pun intended).

His argument against everything is basically, "Well, hey, I'm not sure I believe that".

If he's so into empirical evidence, ask him to prove a SINGLE DAMN THING he believes in. And no, quoting scripture isn't proof.

[Waya]

42. Geeez....

...just tell him that on the issue of Evolution vs. Intelligent Design - Evolution wins. Darwin was right - look at George Dubya - there is 'the missing link' if I've ever seen it.

Besides 'Republicans and Intelligent Design' is an absolute contradiction in terms.

Don't waste your time with those people. Can lead the horse to water...bla, bla....you get the drift....

:evilgrin:

[aden_nak]

43. Tell him if he wants to understand the how, he should go to school for it.

Because that's what separates his ability to understand from their ability to understand. Very often, people decide not to believe in something because they can't understand it, as if their own capacity for understanding were the ultimate measure of whether or nothing something is possible. Ask him if he understands how a microwave works. Or he can explain the process of nuclear fission. Or if he can tell you how a wireless router actually GETS the signal from one place to another. He probably can't. But he accepts that those things must work. So just because something is beyond his little brain doesn't mean that's a proof of its nonexistance.

[kiki]

45. Good point.

Back when I used to indulge in them, my altercations with freepers always used to end with "I'm not your fucking teacher", after them demanding a link for the fiftieth time without ever putting one up themselves.

There's a website you freepers can visit to find out about these sorts of things. Dunno if you've heard of it - www.google.com.

But of course, you'd only go there if you actually WANTED to learn something.

Being stupid is like a drug to these people.

[VTMechEngr]

46. Man, its sick.

I know how all three of those work. Bad Engineer, Bad! :spank:

[knitter4democracy]

51. My dad tried to explain them all to me once.

He's an engineer, too. He made me take up through Calc II in college or he wouldn't pay for it, and you know what? I'm glad he did, since many things made more sense after that. He was right.

Thanks, Engineer!

[LSK]

64. that is a wonderful explanation

I was trying to figure out how to frame it, and then I read your post.

:thumbsup:

[kiki]

44. Oh, and the "all mighty dollar"...

(Typical that a freeptard can't even SPELL 'almighty')

...that's gotta be a fucking joke. Ask him to look at the three biggest influences on his worldview. Humble working men with an austere lifestyle? Mmm. Fucking thought so.

Tell him you don't waste your time on cretinous hypocrites and be done with him.

[EstimatedProphet]

48. Tell him that he can believe that science doesn't work all he wants

So, he should throw away his computer, his calculator, his car, his medicine, his TV, his stereo, hsi clothing, his furniture, his house, his food-everything.

Science works on the scientific method. An hypothesis is formed from an observation about nature, tested through experimentation, and the test is analyzed extensively to determine whether it holds up. It's that way for everything-physics, chemistry, biology, geology-everything. If he wants to reject part of it because he just doesn't want to believe it, then why does all the other stuff work?

[BlooInBloo]

49. Go learn the mathematics of exponential growth/decay....

It's really quite easy.

And once you understand it, it's easy to see how to figure the doubling time/half life without actually waiting for it to occur. Banks use such methods all the time.

[VTMechEngr]

52. If I recall correctly:

Its the time constant for a First Order Differential equation.
dN/dt = - k N


Solution:
N = No e^-kt

Where k is the time constant
N is the current number of atoms
No is the starting amount of atoms
t is time

[BlooInBloo]

59. For decay, yah... constant % decrease...

In particular, notice that there are 2 parameters. Hence, any 2 points on the curve will be needed to fix them - just pick points in time that are close to now, and hence easy to verify the values. So there's nothing magical about knowing the half-life will be, say, a jillion years from now - we don't have to wait the whole jillion years to find out.

[skids]

55. This is a diversion.

All you need to do is attack the issue from the computational science perspective. If they don't buy in after seeing evolution, including these so called "irreducibly complex" systems, exhibited in an automata much more basic than DNA, then you know nothing you can say will help and they aren't worth arguing with. If they won't listen to math, they won't listen at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_algorithm

It may take some time to get them to grok the math, but if you are just insistant that the success of these algorithms is concrete proof evolution works, and that that wins the argument, and don't bother to get distrated from making that point, they'll have to address it.

[janx]

57. Don't waste your time!

This is a political "wedge" matter in which some ignorant people don't understand the difference between science and faith.

[hopeisaplace]

58. Tell him he's free to believe what he wants..just keep his beliefs out of

government, so that you are FREE to believe what you want:
(separation of church and state).


edit: clarity

[sendero]

61. Why waste your time?

I wouldn't discuss polymorphism and inheritance of C++ objects with a 3 year old, why would you talk sense to a person who is religiously imbecilic, if not insane?

[Lisa]

62. it would be really hard to find coal and oil ...

... if the stuff that scientists say about geology, paleontology, and the age of the Earth were all fictional.

Sounds like your "friend" is a neo-catastrophist, or something (if he believes in radioactive meteorites, wildly-fluctuating solar emissions, etc.). The thing is, these kinds of events would leave other traces, and over many generations scientists have tried to piece together the story in a way that seems to be consistent.

Sure, scientists don't know EVERYTHING. Sure, we're still learning about the earth's history and natural processes (for example, the way in which continental drift theory became accepted during the past century). Every scientist I know admits these two points ... and claiming that researchers aren't aware of this is setting up a huge "straw man".

Given that the vast majority of scientists do not make the big bucks, I find it ludicrous that he would claim we are in it for profit! (We don't spend our research grants on hot tubs.) It's quite usual for us to divert money from our regular salaries, if we teach at colleges and universities, to buy research equipment and share information with colleagues. I had to dig into my own pocket to ship books and articles to researchers elsewhere, and recently I helped cover accommodations and travel costs for visitors from developing countries who were attending a conference at my school. I'm glad I haven't got kids, because it would be a lot harder for me to help out other people that way.

Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if he turns around and says that "you can't trust people who are not earning a lot of money", as one neo-con I know often does.

[Crunchy Frog]

63. You can't argue with these people.

No matter what information you give, you will never, never get through.

I think there is some value in the exercise, just because it can spur on your own learning. I've learned alot about science in the process of gathering information to refute creationists. It can also be of value in swaying fence sitters who simply don't know much about science. Trying to change the mind of a hardcore creationist is a simple exercise in futility though.

You are not EVER going to open this guy's eyes.

[Cleita]

65. You can't debate anyone that stupid.

You can lord it over them though.

[cushla_machree]

66. I am continually amazed

about how little most people know and understand about science. I forget myself sometimes because i spent 4 years in college studying it. It just blows my mind that people are still not adequately taught the basics.

I too, have argued with some freeptards about science. Global warming naysaying tends to be their topic of choice, which is a simple one to argue if you just ask them where they are getting their information from. They can't tell you, or won't admit it is straight from the bumblings of Rush. Sometimes you will get a smart one with quotes, but if you ask them where they get the information, it is usually from an oil financed website or right wing think tank. Which causes a chuckle.

The main ignorance is they have no idea why something is both a fact and a theory. They don't understand the basic concepts underlining it all: The Scientific method. Theories don't become fact until they are tested and retested...science allways seeks to make room for new thoughts and is constantly trying to disprove itself. This intelligent design shit starts off with a known, Ie god created the earth and it is 6,000 years old, and just try to find facts that support it while ignoring everything that contradicts it. Science works just the opposite. Any contradiction would make the theory wrong.

The also like to talk about how somehow, there is this big scientist conspiracy, usually they are involved in climate research, and they are fabricating their research to get grant money. Which is completely ridiculous, because it would mean a worldwide conspiracy, and strange how NO ONE has found any way to disprove their research. This idea that they are making stuff up is ridiculous because, everyone knowns that if you disprove something and replace it with something else, you have just granted yourself a place in history. Plus, there is not a lack of topics to research. People wouldn't get renewed grants if they were not showing promise. If they failed, it would be time to move onto something else.

If you are looking for help in your fight against the ignorant freeps, i would suggest talkorigins. They have a search feature where you can google the topic of your choice.

http://www.talkorigins.org/

i am fond of the index to creationist arguments:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/

[Clark2008]

67. He actually has some valid layman's points, particularly re: grants

Now - the fact that there are scientist who DO warp their research to keep their grant money going is out of the way - that's what I'd do - agree with that point (or some other minor point) and don't sound condescending (not that you did, but we have to be wary - all of us do) and then move him, slowly, into expanding his mind.

Let's face it - most of us did this when we were in our teens and early 20s, but these folks didn't. They didn't ponder God and science and the universe and what, exactly, a million light years means. Maybe they THOUGHT about God, but they didn't PONDER Him.

We seem to want to make folks who haven't PONDERED suddenly JUMP into what we've thought and mulled over. Some people just don't DO that until later in life. Be patient. I see folks above saying, "Don't bother," but I say, "YES BOTHER!" He doesn't seem so lost that he's ignorant. He seems as a child - what many of us were at 7 or 8 or 9 or 10 years old, only, because he's 20 or 30 or 40-something, we don't want to take the time to still teach.

Keep up what you're doing. Don't be condescending. Explain away his fears. He read your piece, or so he says - that's more of start than you're giving him credit for.

[heart of darkness]

68. No, he actually doesn't have a point with regard to grants...

with all due respect to DU'ers

that is a bullshit argument that I have heard from anti-global warming, anti-ozone layer, anti-intelligent people. Do some scientists do unscrupulous things? yes, but the problem with lying in science is that for it to be science it needs to be provable..if you make a claim that can't be backed up, it comes out eventually and the disgrace destroys you..done, no respect, nothing..unlike politics, lying doesn't get you ahead in science.

The best these tards can hope for is to buy off scientists to make it the science "fuzzy"-basically, the crap Exxon is paying for with respect to global warming.

[Fountain79]

69. What's the neutral forum?

I have been looking for one.

[Liberal Veteran]

70. Ask him if he wants to test the "theory" of gravity....

...by jumping off a cliff.