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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:04 PM
Original message
How Crazy Are They?
Edited on Tue Apr-11-06 01:05 PM by WilliamPitt
I had a debate with my boss last night about Sy Hersh's terrifying New Yorker article describing Bush administration plans to attack Iran, potentially with nuclear weapons. After reading the Hersh piece, my boss was understandably worried, describing his reaction to the article in road-to-Damascus-revelation terms. They're going to do this, he said.

I told my boss that I couldn't believe it was possible the Bush administration would do this. I ran through all the reasons why an attack on Iran, especially with any kind of nuclear weaponry, would be the height of folly.

Iran, unlike Iraq, has a formidable military. They own the high ground over the Persian Gulf and have deployed missile batteries all throughout the mountains along the shore. Those missile batteries, I told him, include the Sunburn missile, which can travel in excess of Mach 2 and can spoof Aegis radar systems. Every American warship in the Gulf, including the carrier group currently deployed there, would be ducks on the pond.

The blowback in Iraq would be immediate and catastrophic, I reminded him. The Shi'ite majority that enjoys an alliance with Iran would go indiscriminately crazy and attack anyone and anything flying the stars and bars.

Syria, which has inked a mutual defense pact with Iran and is believed to have significant chemical and biological weapons capabilities, would get into the game.

China, which has recently established a multi-billion dollar petroleum relationship with Iran, might step into the fray if it sees its new oil source at risk.

Russia, which has stapled itself to the idea that Iran's nuclear ambitions are for peaceful purposes, would likewise get pulled in.

Blair and Britain want nothing to do with an attack on Iran, Berlusconi appears to have lost his job in Italy, and Spain's Aznar is already gone. If the Bush administration does this, I told my boss, they'd instantly find themselves in a cold and lonely place.

The nuclear option, I told my boss, brings even more nightmarish possibilities. The reaction to an attack on Iran with conventional weapons would be bad enough. If we drop a nuke, that reaction will be worse by orders of magnitude and puts on the table the ultimate nightmare scenario: a region-wide conflagration that would reach all the way to Pakistan, where Pervez Musharraf is fending off the fundamentalists with both hands. If the US drops a nuke on Iran, it is possible that the Taliban-allied fundamentalists in Pakistan would rise up and overthrow Musharraf, thus gaining control of Pakistan's own arsenal of nuclear weapons. All of a sudden, those nukes would be loose, and India would lose its collective mind.

It was a cogent argument I made, filled with common sense. My boss seemed mollified, and we bid each other goodnight. Ten minutes later, I had an email from my boss in my Inbox. He'd sent me Paul Krugman's latest editorial from the New York Times, titled "Yes He Would." Krugman's piece opens this way:

"'But he wouldn't do that.' That sentiment is what made it possible for President Bush to stampede America into the Iraq war and to fend off hard questions about the reasons for that war until after the 2004 election. Many people just didn't want to believe that an American president would deliberately mislead the nation on matters of war and peace. 'But he wouldn't do that,' say people who think they're being sensible. Given what we now know about the origins of the Iraq war, however, discounting the possibility that Mr. Bush will start another ill-conceived and unnecessary war isn't sensible. It's wishful thinking."

Great.

Things have come to a pretty pass in the United States of America when the first question you have to ask yourself on matters of war and death is, "Just how crazy are these people?" Every cogent estimate sees Iran's nuclear capabilities not becoming any kind of reality for another ten years, leaving open a dozen diplomatic and economic options for dealing with the situation. There is no good reason for attacking that country, but there are a few bad reasons to be found.

The worst of the bad reasons, of course, is that an attack on Iran would change the conversation in Washington as the 2006 midterm elections loom. Bush and his congressional allies are about as popular as scabies right now, according to every available poll. If the current trend is not altered or disrupted, January 2007 may come with Democratic Rep. John Conyers, Jr. sitting as Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee with subpoena powers in hand.

"As Joseph Cirincione of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace recently pointed out," continued Krugman in his editorial, "the administration seems to be following exactly the same script on Iran that it used on Iraq: 'The vice president of the United States gives a major speech focused on the threat from an oil-rich nation in the Middle East. The U.S. secretary of state tells Congress that the same nation is our most serious global challenge. The secretary of defense calls that nation the leading supporter of global terrorism. The president blames it for attacks on U.S. troops.'"

For the moment, one significant departure from the Iraq script has been the Bush administration vehemently denying that an attack on Iran, particularly with nuclear weapons, is an option being considered at this time. Bush himself called the Hersh article "wild speculation," and White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan bluntly stated that the US is committed to diplomacy. Gary Sick, an Iran expert quoted by columnist Jim Lobe in a recent article, seems to think the reputation for irrational and dangerous actions enjoyed by the Bush administration is being used as a psychological lever. "That is their record," said Sick, "so they have no need to invent it. If they can use that reputation to keep Iran - and everybody else - off balance, so much the better."

Then why this cold feeling in the pit of my stomach? Julian Borger, writing for the UK Guardian, has some added insight. "Vincent Cannistraro," writes Borger, "a former CIA counter-terrorism operations chief said Mr. Bush had not yet made up his mind about the use of direct military action against Iran. 'There is a battle for Bush's soul over that,' he said, adding that Karl Rove, the president's chief political adviser is adamantly opposed to a war. However, Mr. Cannistraro said covert military action, in the form of special forces troops identifying targets and aiding dissident groups, is already under way. 'It's been authorized, and it's going on to the extent that there is some lethality to it. Some people have been killed.'"

A battle for Bush's soul? Some people have been killed? It's a wild day here in Bizarro World when I find myself in total agreement with Karl Rove. It is the uncertainty in all this that makes the situation truly terrifying. No sane person would undertake an action so fraught with peril, but if we have learned anything in the last few years, it is that sanity takes a back seat in this administration's hayride.

I bought a coffee this morning at the excellent cafe‚ around the corner, which is run by a wonderful Iranian woman. I asked her point-blank what would happen in her home country if we did attack. She dismissed the possibility out of hand. "I read that Krugman article," she said, "but there's no way they would do this. They'd have to be crazy."

Indeed. Too bad that hasn't stopped them yet.
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is what bothers me so....
my skeptical side says "they aren't that crazy are they?". My conspiracy theory side says "damn straight they are".


:dilemma:
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rustydog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. He has a general who said his God is stronger than "their" God
He he has an Administration that firmly believes in first-strike, pre-emptive strike.
He has been on record early on concerning using nuclear bunker-buster bombs.

Not only would this lunatic do it, I believe he will do it.

Remember, Bush along with his spine, Cheny firmly believe in an IMPERIAL PRESIDENCY, that they do not have to explain their actions.
It does not matter if you agree with that position or not..it is a position they hold and as you can tell by the past 5 years, it has worked for them quite well.

These fuckers plan to use a tactical nuclear weapon against Iran.
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. I think you're right, and I wish you weren't...
I go back to my God help us statement.
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frankly_fedup2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
86. Plus he thinks because he lives in Texas he is a home-grown Texan
but I know people from Texas and they are like anyone else, they are proud of their home state. This guy also believes he was in the Reserves during the Vietnam war. This man has made statements like "Wanted Dead or Alive," "Bring it on," "Military Operations Have Ended," in his little bomber suit and carrying his helmet.

Also, the show Iran put on today is like they are egging this idiot on. As I was watching them show off their Nuclear possibilities to the World, but mostly it appeared they were rubbing it in Bush's face, do they not realize that this idiot will do anything. Plus, he is a bully, and common sense should tell you not to show off in front of a bully.

It's like they want Bush to come and Bomb them. That's all Bush has got left to do that he hasn't done yet . . . bomb another country with nuclear weapons. You know the guy has been itching to use them?

Historic Day for Iran; however, big-big mistake!
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nolies32fouettes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
142. I wrote about this too, but I think the title offended some people..
"Crazy Bush's End of World Sale"

http://www.progressiveu.org/203820-crazy-bushs-end-of-world-sale#comment-11071


Can I help it that this is how I feel?
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darkmaestro019 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
155. Oh, that's comforting.
They really are just a bunch of toddlers, aren't they? My imaginary friend can beat up your imaginary friend. Until somebody's God shows up, can we please quit appealing to the "supervisors" to settle our arguments?

(head plus desktop)
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KerryOn Donating Member (899 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
178. I think you are right and if you are then...
God help us.

It doesn't matter if its conventional bombs, tactical nukes or real nukes. If we attack Iran, life as we know it will be over.

If I were Iran and Bush attacked, the first thing I would do would be to send all the missiles I have to the Persian Gulf. The targets would not be military targets. The targets would be oil ports, oil refineries, and oil tankers in Iraq as well as Saudi Arabia.

So if this happened, what would you do if you were China? (Remember we are at war with China for the last remaining scraps of oil left in the world.)


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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
37. You are correct they are bat shit crazy. What do you think their poll
numbers will be if they nuke IRAN and every US Solder Sailer and Marine in the Middle East is dead 24 hours later? These "End Timers" are scary.
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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #37
97. It make me wonder if the proposed reduction in troops isn't a prelude to
Edited on Tue Apr-11-06 05:05 PM by blackops
destruction. Let Iraq escalate into a full-on civil war, make it necessary to pull the troops, and clear the path for the fallout.

On edit: The fallout would sure take care of that civil unrest in Iraq, now wouldn't it? I fear Bushco may have come to that conclusion as well.
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #37
148. Really...
Bat crazy is right. I think they are crazy enough to do it. Has me loosing sleep these days.

They'll be safe in the bunkers. Look how they treated victims of Katrina -- right here.

Evil sick-wads!
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ktowntennesseedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
83. Here's what worries me about all this. Even if...
this administration has absolute ZERO intention of going nuclear (sorry, I mean NUCULER), all it would take is for some lunatic terrorist to put together a dirty bomb and set it off in Iran somewhere, and all the denials in the world wouldn't prevent a wave of revenge on America.

We could actually be 100% innocent, but it would be the start of World War III anyway. Shows just how far our trustworthiness in the eyes of the world has fallen.

:scared:
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #83
143. What if a alCIA assed like Osama Ben Forgotten did it?
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
183. Yes Virginia, there really is an insanity clause...
and someone better start exercising their options immediately. There is no such thing as conspiracy theory when dealing with bushco*. It's fact. darth cheney probably does eat live kittens for breakfast.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. i think they will -- with conventional weapons -- bomb iran's
nuclear facilities.

i believe they don't think they have a choice.

those are the ways that they wll attack iran -- from the air and as surgical as they can make it.

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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
82. they'll do it-conventional air/as for nukes? anything is possible
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #82
115. no nukes -- because that would cause them pain --
it would isolate them re: the rest of the global community -- and that's not what they want.

they really DO want to lead.

they really do want to show the positive effects of what they've done -- if there are any to be had.

so i think it will conventional non-nuke war heads.

iran isn't going tostop what it's doing -- and george has painted himself into a kind of corner.
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smartvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. FWIW, I believe (perhaps foolishly) that our citizens will not tolerate
nuking Iran. We grew up thinking of nukes as unthinkable.
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. Sorry but they'll be too busy watching American Idol to notice.
Unfortunately the only thing that might get their attention would be a nuke going off here.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
55. thank you very much!
that's it in a nutshell!
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
100. Yep... and when Rumsfeld tells us Iran did it...
They'll have their military budget increases.
They'll have their police state.
They'll have their draft.
They'll have their support.

They'll have their war.

It's a very scary thing to know that a nuke going off on American soil would be exactly what this administration needs. It's scarier to realize that they really are capable of anything.
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hvn_nbr_2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
30. What will they do? Vote for Kerry on a touch-screen? or...
Go to a demonstration that never happened because CorpMedia won't report it?
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
32. The reason that might be a foolish belief is that our citizens
could not possibly do anything to STOP them from pursuing this insane course of action.

We did indeed grow up thinking of nukes as unthinkable; but if we trust that Bush&Co also grew up with that thinking and that it will prevent their using a nuke, I think we'd be mistaken.

OUR TRUST is something they do not deserve, but I'm afraid an awful lot of Americans still trust those criminals in power. At least they don't DIStrust them strongly enough to rise up in the numbers it would take to stand a chance of preventing their insane warmongering actions....


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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #32
173. well...
I think most of the senitors and congresmen still listen a little to the way the wind is blowing. And even bush dosn't want to nuke someone without their permision.
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n2doc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
47. I don't think it will the the citizens who pull them back-
I think it will be his "base", the ultra rich f**kers out there. I think attacking Iran will be an economic disaster large enough to even hit those folks. And if we end up like Nazi Germany, they won't be able to run off to their vacation places and be left alone, they will be hunted like dogs by the rest of the world. While Iraq was good for "business" so to speak, a war with Iran opens up too many uncertainties, including a run on the dollar, US depression/bankruptcy, and civil unrest. But maybe I am placing too much hope in their sanity as well, anyone making the big bucks off of blood money in this time has to be crazy just to not shoot themselves from shame.
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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
88. we've tolerated every violation of the bush admin...he's still there
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #88
122. WE have not tolerated *ss - a puke controlled Congress has.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
96. The thing that scares me about thinking this way
...and believe me, I hope to God you are correct, is what is to prevent them from doing it without getting authorization? They could be planning to nuke Iran as I type this and we wouldn't know until it was all over.

Remember that ridiculous photo op at Thanksgiving in Iraq? Total news blackout until shit for brains was back in the air and out of Iraqi airspace.

I have come to the realization, especially after watching them sit by and do nothing for the citizens of the Gulf, that they are capable of ANYTHING. It scares the shit out of me.
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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
172. I think I may be in the minority agreeing here.
The same idea of bunker buster nuclear bombs to attack Iraqs suposed nuclear facilities was floated before that war. It never materialized. IMO it would be political suicide (if not actual suicide) so I doubt it will happen.

Secondly, I am thinking that what the Republicans may be looking for in Iran is more of something to talk tough about rather than actualy actively invade. Much like they might do with a constitutional amendment to ban same sex marriage. I think at this point the polsters and stratigists probobly realize that military action in Iran would be suicideal as it would yeald much MUCH more of what is already draining their poll numbers. More dayly deathtolls, more unlimited millitary spending, more fear that they are making things worse not better, etc.

IMO the only way they would do this is if they thought they could actualy achive the 24hr victory of blowing the crap out of a few sites without using nuclear weapons and without any 'blow back'. I certainly hope even this administration will get it that that is not going to happen. I do not think a majority of congress will be willing to take that gamble. I think most want to distance themselves with the invasion policy.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. A battle for Bush's Soul?
First you'd have to convince me that he has one.

Great article - very troubling. Logic tells me that Iran makes no sense at all, even politically (yeah it would change the subject, but the new one wouldn't be all that much better for them, given how disasterous this is going to go).

But, rationality need not come round when insanity and ideology are setting the policy.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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spag68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Karl Rove
being involved in the battle for anyones soul is just laughable. If any of them has a 'soul' they must be as dark as night in a cave.
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hvn_nbr_2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
38. Battle for the soul of the Frat Boy Messiah:
In this corner, Jim Beam.

In this corner, cocaine.

In this next corner, Zoloft and whatever else they've got him on.

And finally, in this corner, messianic delusions of grandeur.



Okay, now, given that tug-of-war in whatever's left of his mind, can you really believe, "They wouldn't do ... (anything)"?
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
5. You seem to be describing the beginning of WWIII.
:scared:

I posted years ago that these nutjobs shouldn't be able to access any nukes.
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Protagoras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
44. This describes the beginning of many historical conflicts
Think of the history of almost every major war...someone Thought they could get away with it. Arrogance. The rationalization that it was ultimately "FOR THE BEST".

And then they invade/bomb/whatever. And people die. And it isn't better.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
135. The war games our military have been playing, wrt Iran
All end up catostrophically, basically WWIII.

I guess we get to see just how far up his own ass Bush's head is, since no one has the balls to impeach the crazy motherfucker.
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Trevelyan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
165. I read somewhere that despite popular belief a president does not push the
button himself and that it is very possible that the ones who do would refuse to do it. That may be why all the retired Generals have been making stronger and stronger statements and even the Generals stationed in Iraq have made statements in the MSM for more than a year such as bush is "breaking the best fighting force in the world" I think it was General Casey who said in the media that we would be out of Iraq this year then was forced by bushco to publicly retract it.

The Harper's article this month with a round-table discussion of American Coup D'Etat and their article last month advocating Impeachment seems to be signs that the Pentagon is not going to let these bat shit evil crazies continue to break our military or start WWIII.

I hope so. I think it was Rigorous Intution EZ Board that had a short discussion on what is known of the chain of command in using nukes. Also someone said that we need to be shouting on every messageboard that we are not going to put up with this, the last and final bush straw to encourage those who might refuse that they have the back up of most of the American people.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
6. I do think they are that crazy.
Edited on Tue Apr-11-06 01:22 PM by myrna minx
I fear for us all. :cry:

Someone pried open the lock to Richard Perle's and William Kristol's crypt and unleashed them to freely roam the earth again. Whenever these two Counts Chockula rear their preternatural heads, war is always soon to follow. :cry:
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enigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
7. They are crazy
But the problem is that half of them are a PNAC "let's rule the world" crazy, and the other half is the Fundie "We're bringing on the End Times" kind of crazy.

Among the inner circle who matter, I don't see anyone that's not one or the other. That's the truly scary part.
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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
10. Batshit.
Good article.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
11. These people have keys to the underground bunker, Will
As long as they know they would survive, they don't give a rat's ass about the rest of us.

I'm convinced the military in D.C. knows bush is insane and the only way to contain him, at least for now, is by making sure this info goes public. How long it will hold him is anyone's guess.
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
114. I believe that the military officers that still have honor may be
the only ones that can end this madness.

BonnieJW posted that "these animals are itching to declare martial law". If our military still has these decent men it may make martial law impossible if they decide enough is enough. Hersh says many are ready to resign, maybe they will reconsider and do what must be done.

We can only hope.
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #114
162. I hope so too...
unfortunately so many of our ex-military officers go on to make big bucks on war after they retire, you have to wonder.
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #162
177. I have everything crossed that crosses, in hope. n/t
:hi:
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BonnieJW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
12. Do not forget
that these animals are itching to declare martial law and will do anything to make that happen. Why do you think there's all the talk of Bird Flu? They are poised like vultures (sorry about the pun)to pounce on the first case they find in this country so they can declare a quarantine, round people up and place them in convenient but isolated places where they can keep an eye on them. What a coincidence! All the people in the round up happen to be Dems.

But since the Bird Flu is dragging its feet, why not just start another war?
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
116. Welcome to DU Bonnie! Hopefully the military men that Hersh
mentioned will not resign, but stay on to do what needs done before these lunatics break open the gates of hell on Earth, worse than in Iraq, world-wide.

Doesn't it stink to even have to have such discussions as these? :grr:

:hi:
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
13. Yeah, they're THAT crazy.
Nobody has won any bets lately by underestimating these people or giving them the benefit of the doubt; I'm not about to do so now. I'm making my way through Mark Crispin Miller's book Fooled Again, and am less and less optimistic that the words "subpoena power" will enter into the democratic realm of possibility any time soon. In other words, carte blanche, baby.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
14. The only thing that will stop them is Impeachment. . .
Edited on Tue Apr-11-06 02:00 PM by pat_k
They are capable of anything.

Their beliefs are not subject to reason or analysis.

They believe what they believe.

It is impossible for people who come to their conclusions by reasoning and testing theories to really "get" what it is like to hold beliefs that are independent of, and impervious to, reality, but that is what they are.

If Bush and Co believe they must take out Iran's nuclear capability (no matter how far from acquiring nuclear weapons they are) to save the world, they will do it.

Alito told us what they are capable of (and what they believe they have the power to do), when he responded to the hypothetical Biden posed during the hearings (If We the People, through our representatives in the Senate and House, passed a resolution prohibiting the President from ordering any sort of attack on Iran, could the President ignore our will and order Bombs to be dropped on Iran?). When Alito refused to set any limit on Bush's "unitary authoritarian power" he made the lunacy of their fascist fantasies crystal clear.

Bush's claim to unrestrained power subverts the principles and institutions we established under the Constitution for the United States. Every day that passes without more members of Congress Waking Up and Standing Up emboldens them.

This is no game. Bush and Cheney pose a clear and present danger. When we call on members of Congress to accuse them of subverting the principles and institutions established under our Constitution we are engaged in a deadly serious endeavor. We must do whatever we can to help our Senators and Reps to Wake Up and Stand Up and attempt to force Bush et al. to return to the law (Censure) or remove them from office (Impeach).


--------------------------
http://january6th.org/drafts.html
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I'm not positive even that would stop them...
if they are as crazy as we all seem to believe they are.

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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. We must fight the fight. They are crazy enough to take action to stop us .
With extreme action comes extreme exposure. The more they fight us, the more they show the American people what they are. (The world already sees it).

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

On Impeachment, they have shifted from laughing to fighting.

We are winning.
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NEOBuckeye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
95. Screw Impeachment -- Send them straight to The Hague/ICC! n/t
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #95
144. Absolutely! Their war crimes are "above our paygrade"
Edited on Tue Apr-11-06 09:27 PM by pat_k
We cannot begin to redeem ourselves in the eyes of the world until their violations of international law are answered in the International Court of Justice at the Hague.

http://january6th.org/charges.html

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, John Yoo and other high-officials conspired to violate, and are continuing to violate, Title 18 section 2441. War crimes.

Insider reports and analysis of information in the public domain demonstrate their intention to circumvent and violate both U.S. Code and international law.

For example, Alberto Mora, outgoing general counsel of the United States Navy, documented the roles played by Donald Rumsfeld, David Addington, Paul Wolfowitz, William Haynes, John Yoo and others in implementing a policy that sanctioned and promoted the torture of detainees -- a blantant violation of American principle, U.S. Code, and international law. Mora submitted his chronological account to Vice Admiral Albert Church (who led a Pentagon investigation into abuses at the U.S. detention facility at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba) on July 7, 2004.

For a discussion and summary of Jane Mayer's report on Mora's memo, see The criminally insane fascist fantasies of John Yoo.

Through actions and words, parties to the crimes acknowledge their consciousness of guilt. They look for cover in their fantastical "theory" of a dictatorial "unitary executive" in America, but their words and actions make it crystal clear that they do not expect those fantasies to hold.

Note: Although we have adopted the relevant international laws in the Federal Criminal Code under Title 18 section 2441, violations of international law should be answered in the International Court of Justice at the Hague. It may be best for the nation to redeem itself in the eyes of the world by reserving prosecution of these crimes until such time as the suspects can be turned over to that court.


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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
15. Yes, they are that crazy, and they think they are perfectly sane and
to some extent, geniuses. And they lie. And make you doubt YOUR sanity. Lee Atwater was a kindergarten birthday party by comparison to this mind fuck.
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lutefisk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
18. They believe Americans will rally around Bush, again
They believe that once the shock and awe starts, Bush's poll numbers will move back up over 50%. And once there is retaliation, especially if on US soil, Bush will be at 80% and we'll all be flying American flags in our yards and taping them to our windows and cars. Reducing the discourse to survival against an enemy is all they have left. They are desperate and will do anything to hold on to power.

I don't think there is much doubt anymore that Bush is armed and dangerous- and crazy.
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
80. What worries me is a manufactured 'incident'.
Something with Iran's fingerprints on it, real or concocted. That would give them all the 'reason' they'd need and they'd strike before anyone had time to figure out what the true facts are. Another 9/11 type event would, in their deranged minds at least, give them carte blanch to use any force necessary to retaliate. Hmmm.....another 9/11 type event. The first one worked in their favor extremely well. If something happens that works very well to their advantage, you can expect that 'something' to happen again. History is laden with fake attacks to justify going to war and I don't think they're going to abruptly stop now. Bush wants this, it will define his 'legacy'. :eyes:
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #80
117. I would blame another 9/11 type event ON THEM.
Even if it turned out the Iranians were behind it, I'd think it was MIHOP. That would be just too damn convenient for them. If there is an incident in this country--a dirty bomb or whatever--I would blame the Bush mafia, assuming I'm still around to blame anyone. And I don't think I'm alone by any means.

I'm saying that another 9/11 type incident might backfire in a big way. Would YOU trust them to investigate it? Would ANYONE? Arrest the traitors first and ask questions later!
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #80
163. I worry about this as well....it is definitely their M.O....n/t.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
123. You make a good point. They are crazy and desperate, which
makes them extremely dangerous. You do not corner a rat and expect it to lie down and surrender. Also I am absolutely sure that the rw religious community is feeding him their bull which says there will be no consequences for this because they will be raptured out when it becomes too dangerous.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
19. It depends on how volatile Team Bush is
I know they're crazy, but I'm not quite certain that they're impulsive. Well, not that impulsive. Or are they?

That's what I worry about.

If Bush is capable of controlling his anger, the chances of war with Iran are fairly slim. But if he starts behaving impulsively (possible, given his recent political fortunes and a life-long predisposition for rash action) the chances of a preemptive strike on Iran are much more likely. The battle for his "soul" may be better described as the battle for his psychological "buttons".

I'm also glad to see that someone other than me thinks that Pervez Musharraf -- as bloody as his hands may be -- has been saving Bush's bacon vis-a-vis the fanatics. And not just Bush, but the world. Very little attention is paid to the 20-50 nuclear weapons Pakistan has. If the hardasses manage to get rid of Musharraf and seize control of those weapons, the lid will be off the can of nuclear whoop-ass for real. Iran, as a self-consciously soverign state, would never allow free-lancers to wage nuclear war in its name; but a paralyzed Pakistan embroiled in civil war and post-coup politics would hardly have the authority to say "no" and make it stick.

One plausibly real nuclear war scare, and that's it for the 50-year-long fever dream of "Free Men, Free Markets, Demure Women, and Dead A-Rabbs". But the price would be way too high, without even a single explosion. With as high as the tension is now, Bush would be a fool to risk advancing that scenario. But fear of being a fool doesn't appear to be a major brake on his behavior.

--p!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
20. It might be worth considering
what qualities would make a "leader" more inclined to use WMDs to resolve a conflict. A general make-up would likely include a male who views the world in black & white terms -- good vs bad, you're either with us or against us -- and who subscribes to a rigid, fundamentalist religion that involves a rigid, angry God who tests peoples' faith frequently, and punishes with hell-fire.

Next, one would do well to consider what situation would increase the likelihood of such a leader resorting to such behavior. While it is possible that the administration is hoping to intimidate the Iranian leaders, it is sadly true that the context of the conflict raises the possibility that Bush would take an insane path.
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gasperc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
21. my counter measure proposal to prevent
I posted this at KOS, we need counter measure ideas, I agree being crazy hasn't stopped them yet. Some said my idea was a little wimpy, help me find ideas to give it teeth


People Powered Politics

In light of the current absurd talk of the pre-emptive use of Nuclear weapons in order to prevent World War III by starting it, I propose the following citizen action of People powered Politics

I propose a pledge by the American people not to make their mortgage payments should the United States government choose to use nuclear weapons in a pre-emptive manner. The economy will be and should be brought to it's knees.
As many leader's such as Jack Straw and others have pointed out that striking Iran would be nuts and there are alternatives to dealing with Iran, all of which the Bush administration is shunning as pointed out by Seymor Hirsch.
And I don't buy the notion that Hirsch is being used by the administration to spread mis-information. I suspect a majority of Military leaders are becoming seriously concerned about the administration's myopic and messianic world view.
More below the fold.

gaspare's diary :: ::
My proposal is to create an on-line pledge for the American people to sign, of any walk of life, that they will not pay their mortgage should the United States government follow through with the action's proposed by this administration.

The effects of wuch weapons can be found here:
http://www.ucsusa.org/...

Let's face it, the ariel bombing campaign on Iran, let alone the use of nuclear weapons would bring the economy to it's knees. In fact, without the pledge, hordes of people may stop payment of mortgages and credit cards should an attack on Iran move forward.
Best summarized by Jorge E. Hirsch(UC Physics professor)



First, the likelihood of terrorist attacks against Americans both on American soil and abroad will be enormously enhanced after these events. And terrorist's attempts to get hold of "loose nukes" and use them against Americans will be enormously incentivized after the US used nuclear weapons against Iran.

Second, it will destroy America's position as the leader of the free world. The rest of the world rightly recognizes that nuclear weapons are qualitatively different from all other weapons, and that there is no sharp distinction between small and large nuclear weapons, or between nuclear weapons targeting facilities versus those targeting armies or civilians. It will not condone the breaking of the nuclear taboo in an unprovoked war of aggression against a non-nuclear country, and the US will become a pariah state.

Third, the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty will cease to exist, and many of its 182 non-nuclear-weapon-country signatories will strive to acquire nuclear weapons as a deterrent to an attack by a nuclear nation. With no longer a taboo against the use of nuclear weapons, any regional conflict may go nuclear and expand into global nuclear war. Nuclear weapons are million-fold more powerful than any other weapon, and the existing nuclear arsenals can obliterate humanity many times over. In the past, global conflicts terminated when one side prevailed. In the next global conflict we will all be gone before anybody has prevailed.



This is a proposal so that political and business leader's have a pledge of a million or more people to give them additional pause about their actions. They mis-calculated Iraq and they are gravely mis-calculating how their actions would affect the global economy. And I don't mean this to be a solely monetary thing, the death and horror that follows any strike is sickening. Whether this is a bluff tactic by the administration or not, it has already proven stupid and foolish because once the year passes Iran can mock the US for not going through with this idiotic plot.

So don't pay our mortgage and we can collectively do this. That will bring the economy to it's knees, if it hasn't snapped within 30 days of a nuclear strike, I say probably 10-15% not paying would overwhelm the system, liquidity would crash. If the administration wishes to act so recklessly and threaten the world and indirectly my own livelihood, the national and global economy should know that we do hold the power to threaten it. Since our vote and will is being mocked, it is within our rights as citizens to retaliate against immoral, unlawful and the reckless actions of the United State's government.

So I pass the baton onto anyone out there who has the technical expertise to create such a website.

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catmandu57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
22. If the corporate arm of the republicans
have control maybe they can avert this, I hope so. It's a sad day when I have to hope that one faction of the republicans are sane enough to bring the crazies under control.

I was speculating earlier about how strong was jr's* support, I believe there to be about 18 million totally committed religio crazies who would follow the bastard right into nuclear hell.

I think also that this time around the rest of the world know these people are unhinged, it's also a sad day when I have to put my faith into the world stopping a madman of our own making because Americans are too damn lazy and indifferent to do the job themselves.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
23. i dont think insanity has anything to do with it
Edited on Tue Apr-11-06 01:40 PM by LSK
I believe they did the Iraq war because of oil and the military industrial complex. They had to know Saddam was defenseless. It was an easy target. Now that they are in Iraq, they are content to just sit back and watch their bank accounts get filled from money going towards Defense budgets all the while knowing that they control of a lot of oil.

Meanwhile, Iran is scared shitless of them being next on the list. Yes while Iran is no pushover, they will not come out clean if there is a war. They do stand a large chance of loosing and getting ravaged in the process even if they somehow do win. So if Iran is in a hurry to get the bomb it is FOR DEFENSIVE PURPOSES only.

I can see how Rove is against the Iran war. He knows what can happen. Hes probably content to just keep getting rich from the Iraq endless chaos.

So I dont know if Bush is crazy or just content to keep getting rich. Does he know what can happen if he does something to Iran? Im not sure. But it sure does seem like Rove knows and thats half the battle right there.
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jaxx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
26. They're crazy enough to do it, and if the pubs lose out in 2006,
they'll be desperate enough. Everyday they stay in office is a gamble.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
27. I live across the street from an Iranian family
Edited on Tue Apr-11-06 01:53 PM by Emit
They're all US citizens now and voters, too. During the lead up to Iraq, I asked the man what he thought. He was all for Bush invading Iraq. He said his brother had suffered chemical burns back in the '80s from Saddam's army. During the '04 election, as a precinct worker, I asked the man who he planned to vote for. He supported Bush.

I haven't spoken to him about politics for a while now. I think I'll go over soon and get his opinion on these more recent events. I can't imagine that he is not feeling some sort of anger or resentment toward Bush & Co. by now.

edited spelling
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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
28. And they are such liars - that when they say no, they
are really saying yes. So when Bush says we will not bomb them, I think there is a 70% chance that he is lying.
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DebbieCDC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
29. Did anyone pick up on this in the Sy Hersh article?
"A government consultant with close ties to the civilian leadership in the Pentagon said that Bush was 'absolutely convinced that Iran is going to get the bomb' if it is not stopped. He said that the President believes that he must do 'what no Democrat or Republican, if elected in the future, would have the courage to do,' and 'that saving Iran is going to be his legacy.' "

The operative phrase here is "if elected in the future" -- WTF is THAT supposed to mean?

These people are crazier than bats in a belfry. There's nothing they won't do to hold onto power. I've been saying it for 6 years and I don't see any reason to change my mind.
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apple_ridge Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #29
98. Good catch!
You're exactly right. They have no plans on giving up power, but at the rate they'r going, the point may be moot.
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Notoverit Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #29
102. "if elected in the future" - only wimps take power via election, real men
assume it by coups! W must have been told he was never elected - and how that's a good thing!
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darkmaestro019 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #29
157. I didn't spot that. Boy, I only thought it was scary before.
Thank you for pointing that out. One of the best things about DU is the fact that we have plenty of eyes connected to plenty of sharp minds.


One of the worst things is that with a setup like that you KNOW this awful stuff :hide:
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #29
161. a segueway to Dan Elsbergs comments
They can't invade anybody without a draft.

"I'm made really uneasy by a line that I'm seeing from a lot of liberals and even from critics of the war, and that is the emphasis on the unfairness of the volunteer army and the fact that gee, isn't this a terrible situation where a few people are paying enormous risks and an enormous price, and the rest of us are paying no price.

I'll tell you why that makes me very nervous. I think that a case is being made for a draft, and I think it will happen with the approval of our Democratic leaders and many liberal columnists because of this unfairness issue. But it will not happen until there's been a major crisis, another 9/11. Or conceivably a war that came out of our air attack on Iran. So when I talk a short-term attack, an attack on Iran before a 9/11, it would be an air attack.

If we have another 9/11, then I think you do get a draft. I seem to be the only person saying this at this point.

But if you want to put 200,000 or 300,000 more in Iraq- which I believe he would do if he could- he has to wait until he has a draft. So we've got to stop that draft. And people who think that the draft would be a good thing because it will spread the burden and so forth, really have their heads up their ass. You can quote me on that.

It's terribly misguided and that's another thing we might be able to stop. I hope we can stop an attack on Iran - that will be very hard - and I would hope we can build a backfire where even under a 9/11, people will balk at a draft and say that isn't what we need. Because if they give him the draft, not in their minds in order to send more troops over - nobody wants to do that in large numbers - but because they think it will be more fair, what they'd be giving him is a blank check to send hundreds of thousands of troops within a year or two into Iraq and Iran and maybe Syria and North Korea.

If and when there's another 9/11 while Bush is in office, I think he'll get what he wants. And what he wants is - I have a sort of litany of what I think you'd get. Maybe I should just say the list right now.

First, I think you get a new Patriot Act, probably drafted already, that makes the old one look like the Bill of Rights. And the Bill of Rights is gone. Obviously, it hasn't had any reality in the minds of the White House, the administration, as a desideratum, as something to hang onto, since they got in, or since 9/11 anyway.

Second, total surveillance, which apparently we may have right now. When I was saying this a month ago, it wasn't on the assumption that they'd gone as far as it turns out they have. But I did see that happening in the future, as I started thinking 40 years ago, when I had clearances. I knew then that there was no great technical problem in simply turning on the NSA domestically, to listen to the American public the same way they listened to foreign countries. There was just a political problem, you could say a constitutional problem. And the day that they flipped that switch, for whatever reason, we would become a total surveillance society. I would say that switch was flipped, secretly, just after 9/11 (if not before).

I think that what the NSA is probably doing is a massive, massive vacuum cleaner operation here within America as well as in and out, and that we're talking about millions and millions of intercepts. I suspect what we're going to find out is in effect what Admiral Poindexter called Total Information Awareness, that's what was turned on. And the targeted wiretaps--the individual ones that they should have asked the FISA court for warrants on but didn't--are probably illegal for two other reasons as well: They're based on the illegal mass data-mining program, and some of them, probably a lot of them, target journalists, politicians and antiwar activists with no relation to terrorism. I'm guessing that they didn't apply for warrants--or for changing the law--because even the FISA court wouldn't give warrants in these cases, or for data-mining, nor would even a Republican Congress make these legal.

Even before the investigations we need of all this, given the overwhelming prima facie appearance of illegality, there should be senators saying right now, "stop." A lot of them, even Republicans, have uttered the words "illegal," "unconstitutional," "impeachable" about the secret NS programs. but I don't know of one who has gone on to say, "This must be stopped. Right now."
now: This should stop. Right now. While it's being investigated.

Suspend it until we decide it's legal.

Oh, it's illegal. You can't make it legal without changing both existing laws and the Constitution. When it comes to the will and determination of this executive branch to conduct unconstitutional surveillance, the die has been cast, the shift has been made. The question before us now is whether the public and the rest of the government--Congress, courts, the fifth estate--will act to roll that back, fast, or will they sign on? That remains to be seen, soon.

Third, with a big 9/11, I think there will be martial law in large parts of the country if not all of it. Fourth, a broad official secrets act. Add to that an overall surveillance society, and we have a country in which the government has total privacy in terms of secrecy and the public has zero privacy from the government. That is not a democracy. Then the world has the chance to find out what it means to have a superpower not only out of control but one that is totalitarian, a dictatorship.

What's the lesson of the Vietnam War? You don't want a king. And a king in foreign policy is what Nixon thought he was and for practical purposes was acting like. A king is what Bush thinks he is. If you don't like the word, "king," dictator is another word. He said to a questioner recently, "I am not a dictator." Like Nixon's, "I am not a crook."

All this from another 9/11?

And more. Fifth, on a large scale I think we'll see from tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands - and I mean plural, hundreds of thousands - of Middle Easterners, Muslims and sympathizers, some non-Muslim dissenters but mostly young Muslim males, in camps or deported. And that will happen without a whole lot of resistance by the public after another 9/11.

Six, a quick renewal of nuclear testing. Not because it has any relevance to any of this but because Bush wants it, the Republicans want it, and he'll get what he wants after that. And the rationale will be: It's a dangerous world, we have to be prepared to hit terrorist underground nuclear storage sites or whatever. It will be a very thin reason, but he'll get it. Nuclear testing. That starts nuclear testing all over the world.

Basically, a police state is what we're talking about. And that's what I'm really afraid of with another 9/11. And then I'll add ... Iran. If Iran hasn't already been hit, it gets hit. And then after you've had the draft for a year or so, invasion of the southern oil fields of Iran, which apparently we were close to doing a couple times in the last 20 years with earlier oil crises. That came up under Kissinger with the oil crisis in 1973, possibly taking the eastern oil fields of Saudi Arabia; later, Iran, after the shah had left.

I think an attack on Iran is fairly likely, and almost sure to have disastrous effects in the Middle East, especially if nuclear weapons are used, above all. But even without that. In Iraq itself I don't think we're facing imminent escalation, unless there's an attack on Iran, which may be imminent. And the police state ... that's as imminent as a new attack Al Queda, I'm afraid.

For that matter, an attack on Iran is a way to get more 9/11's. It's a provocation.

I could even conjecture that that's why Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is being so provocative about his nuclear program and Israel. I'm not sure he's totally averse to an attack. It would almost surely strengthen him politically."
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/1/29/144031/104

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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
31. Madman leader. Fascism. Pre-emptive war. Lunatic administration
Edited on Tue Apr-11-06 01:57 PM by Zorra
Disproportionately large fanatical segment of the national population. Centralized intelligence. Rapid loss of civil liberties. Rampant warrantless spying on innocent citizens.

What is wrong with this picture?



Are they crazy enough to do it? You better believe it. Just read the PNAC "Mein Kampf" type manifesto for a chilling insight into just how insane these certifiable sociopaths really are. Or just read Ann Coulter.
:scared:
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
33. You have laid out many logical arguments , and if ours was a....
logically thinking administration I would agree with you. I share those logical arguments, and have laid those same arguments out,(except for the Sunburn missile batteries dotting the Persian Gulf coast, which I had not known about)and still I believe wholeheartedly that my arguments don't amount to squat, because this administration has an agenda and they are not going to be denied.

This administration has repeatedly ignored the advice of our own military experts, as well as the advice of our own intelligence estimates. So, what makes you think that they will suddenly do the logical thing, which would be sustained diplomacy, ending with a sane mutual agreement and a possible, I say possible new understanding and workable alliance with Iran? This is not going to happen. The Bushies don't want it, and the Iranian leadership is crazy. Their leadership is playing the dangerous brinksmanship game, egging our administration on. The president of Iran, I believe wants a religious war, unifying Islamists throughout the middle east toward their cause.

Some very bad things are going to happen. We are on a collision course, and Bush is not against using a nuclear option. If it is on the table, then he has already come to terms with okaying the use for it, having already stated that he is prepared to do what no other president would think of doing.

God help us all.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Excellent post.
Again, to mention Mark Crispin Miller's book (because that's what I'm reading at the moment, and it struck me as wholly relevant to this discussion)--he points out that our gravest error in misjudging what the current regime will do is that we are projecting our rationality onto them, when they are not rational. We are dealing with true radicals, and trying to make logical, rational arguments about what they will or won't do is irrelevant.
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faithnotgreed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #33
160. agreed - as long as bush sees anything as his "legacy" you can bet
that is exactly the collision course he will insist staying upon because none of us matter to him anyway
why start now believing otherwise
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
34. Greatest danger for an abused woman is when she leaves
or tries to leave. At that point, when the abuser faces the loss of power, they are more likely to to viciously assault or murder the person being abused.

As a nation, we are pulling ever farther away from Bush and the power players, such as Delay, in this regime. The spin isn't working and the excuses aren't believed. They face a loss of their power and just like any other abuser, now is when they are most dangerous.

Just like an abused victim, we have to get out of their grip. But we also need to be aware that they will not release us willingly.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #34
45. Your analogy to abuse is apt.
Edited on Tue Apr-11-06 02:55 PM by pat_k
The damage inflicted by violent resistance to relinquishing power can be devastating, but the violence leaves no doubt about the abuser's nature. As they fight to keep control, the reality and urgency of the situation becomes crystal clear. Denial becomes impossible.

Like an abused spouse, we have been obsessing about what our abuser might do next, trying figure out what the fascists might be thinking and how we can placate them. It is not until a battered spouse understands the reality -- that she has NO control over her abuser -- that she can shift her attention from the abuser to herself and what she must do, come what may.

All we can do is fight the fight and take the steps we must to shake our so-called leaders out of their denial. We expect members of our armed services to risk life and limb to support and defend. Members of Congress take the same oath. It is time to let them know that their continued dereliction of duty will not be tolerated.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. We also need a restraining order
And maybe that's part of why Hersh's sources went to him.
By calling attention to this, they may hope to shake the leaders out of denial (well said, btw) and encourage them to take steps to restrain this insane administration and not allow them to do this. And not just our leaders, but world leaders as well.
And we need to keep the volume up to help persuade leaders to avert this catastrophe.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #48
60. Hear, Hear!!
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
-Gandi

On Impeachment/Censure, they have shifted from laughing to fighting.

We are winning, but as you say, we must keep exerting whatever pressure we can. (e.g., More of us need to put on Citizen lobbyist hats and engage our "leaders" (or staffers) in dialog, where we can elicit and directly challenge their rationalizations for inaction.)

We never know the ripple effects of action, but we do know that every action, no matter how small, moves us closer to victory.

We don't need a movement -- We just need to move!!


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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #60
66. You're absolutely right
That's a great post.
Have you considered changing the title to "this week" and starting a new thread with it?
It merits that.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #48
137. Okay the SCOTUS put this idiot in control. Is there any way
they can take the power to start a nuclear attack away from them? We need to look to all other agencies in the government to put pressure on these idiots.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #137
150. Congress has a unique responsibility to act when officials in the . . .
Edited on Tue Apr-11-06 10:11 PM by pat_k
. . .Executive or Judiciary subvert (or threaten) our Constitution.

Of course we should pressure our fellow citizens (including officials in every branch of our government) to stand up against the subversion of our Constitution. But, the Congressional oath and the power to Impeach makes each and every member of Congress uniquely, and individually, responsible to take Congressional action when the principles and institutions we established in the Constitution are under siege.

http://january6th.org/reject-fascist-fantasy.html

. . .
The Balance of Powers Favors Congress


Contrary to what the new American fascists would have you believe, the three branches of Government DO NOT share power equally.

When we established our Constitution for the United States of America, we yielded NONE of our Sovereignty to ANY institution we created, but we did vest more power in Congress -- our voice -- than in the Judiciary or the Executive.

How do we know we gave Congress more power? Simple. We gave Congress the Power to Impeach the President and members of the Judiciary. (The President and the Judiciary Can’t Impeach Congress).

The design of our constitution anticipated the need balance conflicting interests. When the laws we pass to address specific problems (or an interpretation of those laws) conflict with each other, or with the tenets of our Constitution, we look to the judiciary to resolve these conflicts in a manner that ensures that the application of the law is the best reflection of our will that can be achieved in an imperfect world.

If, instead of acting ensure that the execution or application of the law reflects our will, officials in the Judiciary or Executive seek to supplant our will with their own, Congress has a duty to step in. . .


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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #150
158. Good point! This is also why the Founding Fathers
gave to Congress and Congress ONLY the authority to declare war. They could never have envisioned pre-emptive wars, "police actions" and undeclared wars. But they were all too familiar with the workings of tyrants and tyranny to have entrusted that power to the Executive.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #150
170. And they need to exercise that unique ability
And we need to keep supporting the ones who are trying to exercise that (Conyers, Feingold, etc) and to encourage those still in denial that it has gone this far to open their eyes to the reality that it has and that they must restrain this administration now.
I don't know what the point of no return is, but I think we'll likely see it in hindsight rather than before it occurs. I'm becoming increasingly concerned that we are edging ever closer to it.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #45
136. That is a good first step. I also would like to somehow public ally
call for our military leaders to refuse to participate in this outrage. They swore to uphold the constitution and to protect the people of the US. They may be the only ones who can end the madness of this administration.
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #34
52. Great analogy!
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #34
174. SPOT on analogy

Bravo! And, shudder.
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
36. bushit is insane
I am convinced he's nuts and right about now I think he calls all the shots and pays absoluetly no attention to his handlers.

If his own military commanders don't shut him down and get his ass out of office I am convinced we are doomed.
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Catamount Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
39. Will or anyone...question about the 'bunker-busting bomb...
Does the US have it ready to go right now?
While I believe that * and his adm. are willing to do anything to further their cause, I heard that that particular bomb is still not ready!
Do you know if this is true?
What scares me the most is that * will just do it, probably very soon and the consequences be damned!
Please tell me that what I heard was right! That way we still have some time to stop this...otherwise they will have their Armageddon!
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #39
68. According to this informative article, nuke bunker busters are ready
for use and have been since 1997.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/bunker-buster4.htm

I recommend this one-page overview for anyone wishing to get a quick idea of how nuclear bunker busters work. There is more detailed info available there, too, if you want to follow the links.

This paragraph alone says a lot:

<< From an environmental and diplomatic standpoint, however, the use of the B61-11 raises a number of issues. There is no way for any known penetrating bomb to bury itself deeply enough to contain a nuclear blast. This means that the B61-11 would leave an immense crater and eject a huge amount of radioactive fallout into the air. Diplomatically, the B61-11 is problematic because it violates the international desire to eliminate the use of nuclear weapons. >>

:nuke: :crazy: :nuke: :crazy: :nuke:


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Catamount Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. Thanks, I thought that was the case!
Something needs to be done immediately to stop this madness!
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
40. "sanity takes a back seat in this administration's hayride".
Bush, a madman being guided by madmen, one would think that checks and balances would be in place to avoid such scenario's.

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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
41. Think worst possible scenario
And bet on it. We have heard this administration lie too many times and have seen them do too many very stupid things to believe they will not nuke Iran.

The my God vs. your God deal is truly scary. They all believe the Armageddon myth to the point where they are clearly more than willing to make it happen.

I guess the one with the most toys/countries/money wins? They have nothing to loose if they believe our days are numbered anyway. Personally, I'm waiting for Bush to announce himself Dictator of the United Republican States of America.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
42. IGNORANCE RULES Factor in play here, Will :o)
15 % Illiterate

25 % Aliterate

40% of us Americans do not read...

they are EASILY FOOLED....Highly susceptible? I would think so....

One of the DEMs Platform/Tenent/Planks/Philosophy should seriously advocate/pursue/ a successful LITERACY PROGRAM/SYSTEM for the WORLD...starting with the USA..and if we do...lets get to the next Level at the same time, the 200 Level....the Level of having the worlds best communication device since printing was started a few centuries back....the InterNet much more available to the common Masses....and in such a manner, they know what to do with the damn thing, use it to further their respect / knowledge...Lets take Education to the Next Level....we are not addressing Solutions so much these days...the real solutions for us addresses: Sustainability for the entire Human Race....

The Pubs are Lost in this Realm, the Dems must BEAT The PUBS in terms of Paradigm Shifting...the DEMS must go CUTTING EDGE

and, bwahahaha, (laugh) There ain't too many things the Pubs can do about it...as their Philosophy Sucks big time...the only thing for a Pub to do once this occurs, is to eat crow, some faster/spiceier than others, and join the Party/Group/Philosophy that best serves the Continuation of Mankind...in a safe climate...Healthy Wealthy Wise stuff here...something they can understand once the Brainwashing Cure is attained....We wish for more Indies and wavering Pubs to come on over to join REASON SANITY AND COMMON SENSE/Good...thats Us Dems...Maybe not now but it can be...if a message sim to the above is accepted as a good thing and becomes Popular.

jus some thoughts to mull on....Will, sorry for the rant
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
43. How crazy? My take on **.
Axis I 296.32 Major Depressive Disorder, Recurrent, moderate
292.84 Cocaine Induced Mood Disorder (Is probably medicated for this)
305.20 Cannibas Abuse
291.8 Alcohol Withdrawal, Recurrent

Axis II 301.81 Narcissistic Personality Disorder (This condition existed in Boss Cousin before substance abuse)

Axis III Facial Ticks
Frequent accidents resulting in facial bruising
Axis IV Explosive Episodes, abusive behavior with subordinates

Axis V GAF=50


Not someone the Military would allow to handle the football, let alone make use of it.


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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #43
75. Why is the GAF so high?
I would put it at more like 30. ;-)
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #75
119. Lately he has tried to interact some, why I gave him a 40.
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #43
78. Interesting! I just made a stab at diagnosing GWB this weekend
and after considering some of what you mentioned in your post, I settled on Socialized Psychopath or Sociopath, sometimes called a "Serial Bully."

I don't have a DSM-V handy, so I don't know the numbers to assign, but here is a very interesting list of symptoms/behaviors of this type of personality:

http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm#Sociopath

For those who won't go read the many descriptive points of the social psychopath, here are just a few of them:

-- always charming and beguilingly plausible, especially to those who are capable of protecting or enhancing the sociopath's position

-- excels at deception (this must never be underestimated, but always is)

-- excels at evasion of accountability

-- will often engineer himself or herself into a position of authority as gatekeeper of the organisation and thus the person through whom all information must flow, and the person to whom all requests for services must be referred - which he or she then takes delight in denying

-- is adept at offering weak and inadequate people the positions of power, control, security, influence or respect that they crave but who lack the necessary competencies to achieve - such people are unaware that their consequent dependence on the sociopath makes them permanent manipulatees, pawns and expendable agents of harassment

-- is contemptuous of disrepute to their organisation and of collateral damage and of the destructive consequences for all direct and indirect parties

-- is skilled at identifying, undermining, discrediting, neutralising and destroying anyone who can see through the sociopath's mask of sanity

-- at all times restricts the actions and rights of others (especially those holding the sociopath accountable) whilst aggressively protecting his or her right to do anything without being hampered by social norms or legal requirements

and lastly and perhaps most frighteningly:

-- only after the sociopath is exposed and relieved of position, or they move on, can the full depth of their destructive behaviour be fathomed and the consequences calculated.


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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #78
118. Definitely a personality disorder which one?
The substance abuse muddies it up.

The Narcissistic symptoms are common among those who abuse cocaine so could rule that out. His Narcissism is long term from childhood. He liked to be called "Boss Cousin". What you list also applies to a Narcissistic as well as what was called Sociopaths.

The key to George he sees no wrong in himself.


I would not do this if I were practicing.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #78
139. In reading these symptoms it is interesting to think about
what the statement of Mr. Taylor this week must have done to wonder-boy. Paranoia.
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livetohike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
46. They are crazy enough to do it. People have to realize
that this next strike is not a video game war.

I am old enough to remember ducking under my desk at school for air raid drills during the 50's. The concept of using nuclear weapons dredges up old history/nightmares for me.

I want to take people by the shoulders and shake some sense into them. If we let go with a nuclear weapon, we will open that Pandora's box. Those countries who have them - will use them too, imo.
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. Those air raid drills made an impact.
That is the mental picture this conjures for me. I do not want to have to start that nonsense again.


We already have to practice lockdowns. Duck and cover would be too much.
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livetohike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. I had recurring nightmares for years after those drills
:scared: In the nightmare, I was always running home from school during the sirens. I didn't know anyone who actually had a bomb shelter in their yard, but I remember hearing about them.

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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
49. that's what scares me the most about these people - they are certifiable.
No telling what they'll do.
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MrBlueSky Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
51. ARRGH!!!!
For CRYIN' OUT LOUD.... did Jesus SAY "Blessed are the warmongers, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven?????"

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO... He didn't!!!!

This piece really makes me very cross!!!!

Death shall arrive on swift wings for the whole world if this happens!!! :nuke: :mad: :grr:

IMPEACH BOTH NOW... before they go crazy!

This is TRULY SCARY!!! :scared:
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. welcome to DU
:hi:
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MrBlueSky Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #56
67. Thanks helderheid
While I'm new to posting, I actually have been reading threads since January 2005, when I heard Randi Rhodes talk about this site on her show on AAR.

I am a progressive who believes in listening to all points of view, cutting through the shrill flamers and love a true challenge to my mind. I prefer to listen to arguments that are neither spin nor ideological talking points from any political party.

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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
53. Is bush insane?
That's the question. If there's an ounce of sanity in him, he won't do it. I wish I found that comforting.
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
57. It has always floored me to watch the press and public defer to a lunatic

He is completely crazy.

I think many people take that figuratively and not literally. But, the man is LITERALLY mentally ill, to a deep and disturbing degree.

Delusional, paranoid, grandiose. A fragile ego that necessitates him to remain completely isolated to protect it from being completely shattered. Narcisstic beyond belief (that personality disorder includes a complete lack of being able to feel any empathy for another person). He is a very mean person. Degrading to others in order to lift his little insecure azz above them. Cowardly and fearful.

The man needs to be on a locked ward.

He would bomb Iran with a nuclear weapon.

He truly BELIEVES he is on a mission from God!

Psychotic!
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Pathwalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
58. Do you think the Judas as Hero story is a coincidence?
It's as much of a coincidence as that woman asking Bush if we're nearing the Apocolyspe - and if not - WHY NOT? I've spoken to friends who also thought that woman had an accusatory tone when she said WHY NOT?
The Fundies believe that Judas WAS a hero, and are now pushing the belief that the "Anti-Christ" is a hero, which is the part Bush was hired to play. He will play whatever part they ask, as long as it makes him a hero in their eyes. If that means striking Iran, he will order the strike, and I will bet it will be nuclear, because the one thing fundies want is Armageddon, and they are tired of waiting.

Sy Hersh also said that it was the religous idealogues who are pushing this, and I don't think that fact should be ignored. It doesn't matter what anyone but them think - they're in charge. Logic has nothing to do with it, reason has nothing to do with it, and sanity, most of all, has nothing whatsoever to do with it. As long as you use those guidelines, you'll be wrong.

All that matters is that this group of religious fanatics have been on a fifty year crusade to bring about their cherished bloodbath; they now CONTROL the nuclear weaponry, and they will decide when, not if, we bomb Iran. They are now in power, they are now in control, and their hands are on the nuclear buttons. And, yes, they ARE that crazy. and impatient.

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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #58
145. Jim Mzcl (sp?) told Tweety that Cheney is pushing for action
That scared the hell out of me. If Cheney's for it, chances are it'll happen.
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
59. Excellent as usual, Will Pitt. Your debate with your boss is likely
a debate many are having all across this country now that Sy Hersh has revealed the plans for nuking Iran presently being considered in the White House. Your words here

<< Things have come to a pretty pass in the United States of America when the first question you have to ask yourself on matters of war and death is, "Just how crazy are these people?" >>

are right on target. I've been seeing everywhere I turn others questioning the sanity of GWB and his cadre with regard to this very issue (nuking Iran), and I think that ball has just begun to roll.

For all our collective complacency and willingness to just let our government do whatever it does without much attention from us, I do think there are TIMES when most of us in America wake up with a jolt, shocked to see just how far wrong our "leaders" can go. And afraid -- very afraid of what will happen if we do NOT get motivated and speak out, making at least our best effort at preventing a horrible outcome that spins out of control.

And when that happens, when we the people in this country are shaken to the core, witnessing threats we never thought we'd have to confront again, just maybe we'll take bold enough steps to interfere with the dastardly and insane actions of wicked persons in power.

What worries me so much is that it's been a long time since the 1983 movie WarGames opened the eyes of a nation to the very real threat of Global Thermonuclear War. So many U.S. citizens have grown up in a time when no one talked about "fallout" or "radiation poisoning" or the dangers of an accidental triggering of massive nuclear missile strikes. I'm concerned that an entire generation or two has never really given much thought to grim prospects we older folks had to live with for too long.

The Cuban Missile Crisis in October of 1962 was the closest the world ever came to nuclear war, with the potential for "Mutual Assured Destruction" forcing restraint upon leaders since then until various treaties and a general awakening of most populations steadily reduced the likelihood of any nation launching nukes, ever.

I love the idea of American citizens vowing to refuse making mortgage payments in order to get the attention of the corporations ruling our land from behind the curtains. But I agree that a plan like that needs more "teeth" ... in fact I think it needs some added measures we can threaten to take that would leave no doubt of our intention or (hopefully) our power.

Could we also, for instance, promise simply to NOT BUY ANYTHING, say for three days, in order to demonstrate our understanding that consumers do have a certain power even if we've been cheated out of our fair voting process?

Honestly, if I had the skills, I would not hesitate to create a Website for such a massive demonstration of consumer power in an effort to stay the hand of the Bush Cabal from launching a nuclear attack -- on Iran or anyone else!




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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #59
141. It would be very effective if the action could be against BIG
corporations: energy concerns, big ticket items (cars, homes), credit cards, etc. Many mortgag holders are little guys. A work stoppage for several days is a good idea and also turn off the damn tube for a month. Get your news from BuzzFlash and Common Dreams.
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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
61. 2006 Midterm Conversation
The worst of the bad reasons, of course, is that an attack on Iran would change the conversation in Washington as the 2006 midterm elections loom. Bush and his congressional allies are about as popular as scabies right now, according to every available poll.

If it were to happen I honestly think that is the key. It wouldn't be the first time a President escalated the violence of conflict for political reasons (think Vietnam). They are indeed desperate. I think that both the Iran situation and the current immigration debate are designed as a last ditch effort to get people to rally around the flag, in the Iran case, and to tap in to the fear/hate of the "other" , in the immigration case. Both techniques are common ones for tyrants to employ, especially desperate tyrants.

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spuddonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
62. I had this exact discussion with my hubby Sunday morning...
My husband had just finished Hersh's article, and we were discussing it over coffee. My husband used the exact arguments that you used with your boss.

I told him I'd already had this exact conversation, several years ago, with our brother-in-law who proceeded to tell me 'there was no way we would invade Iraq'.

I remember we ended the conversation with something along the lines of "Our problem is that we are using rational thought processes to assess this situation - this administration does not use rational thought."

You nailed it, WilliamPitt...
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
63. since cheney is actually running things, he's the one to worry about, and
yes, he would.
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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
64. "Indeed. Too bad that hasn't stopped them yet."
"I read that Krugman article," she said, "but there's no way they would do this. They'd have to be crazy."

Indeed. Too bad that hasn't stopped them yet.

Sadly, this has been all I've needed to know in order to form my (terrified) opinion.
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oc2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
65. guys! guys! it is sounding like you WANT him to do it around here!

You know a part of me says, 'its nuts, they would never be THAT STUPID!'

and another part of me that says, you kow 'we deserve this..nukes away!'
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #65
74. Say what?
Methinks you just won the Total Misread of the DU Mood Award for the day.
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x-g.o.p.er Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #65
81. Are you kidding me?
We don't deserve this. 70% of the American people don't deserve this, Iran doesn't deserve this. I'm not in favor of them having nuclear weapons, but Jesus in a jumpsuit, they don't deserve to have a nuke dropped on them just because Bush thinks they shouldn't have one.

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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #65
175. Darling, did you *mean* to post that particular comment on THIS thread?

Bless, it's been somewhat fraught I know, but no, really, I don't think anybody on DU is of the radioactive cheerleaders bent.
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haab Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #65
182. That was oc2002's Six hundred and sixty six post...!!
Should I be worried..!?


Voices against Bush nuking Iran are very muted in the mainstream... There really should be a massive outcry!!
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
69. I told my friend in August 2002 that we would be at war in Iraq by April
He said I was crazy: no way they'd do it. Mark my words, I said. I was right.

Now a new prediction: Bush cannot and will not go to war with Iran. They cannot and will not. Mark my words.
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MrBlueSky Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. To alcibiades_mystery
Dear alcibiades_mystery: :hi:

Thanks for your post.

Trust me... I am absolutely counting on your prediction being correct.

However, can you please shed some light here as to why you feel that way? I'd love to get some details here.

Thanks! :hippie:
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #73
91. I think for the reasons enumerated by Will
The international pressure against such a move would be unshakeable. Whatever fantasies the conservatives have concotcted here, the real money doesn't want it. The real money always wanted Iraq, primarily because it believed its own nonsenses about it. The real money cannot tolerate an attack on Iran. OK, it can tolerate an attack, something like the Libya bombings from the 80's, but even that is tenuous at best. Moreover, Iran has been quite savvy at insolating itself through foreign partnerships with real power players. If anything, the whole thing will be solved by the Chinese and Russians engineering a departure of the current PM. Finally, there is absolutely no stomach for it in the US, and I don't see any amount of propaganda or media hyping making that happen. It really is a case of fool me once, shame on you - and the level of popular cynicism on this issue will simply make the kind of temporary consensus we saw around Iraq impossible. Don't forget that Iraq was a major bogeyman for years, and low-level bombings were taking place all the time. Sadddam Hussein was a cartoonesque villian in the American consciousness. The same can't be said about Iran. There won't be the political stomach to pass a resolution for attacking Iran, nor will the populace accept the already specious reasoning that the initial 9/11 resolution authorizes such an attack. Now, I believe that the administration has stocked the Pentagon with ridiculous yes-men, but officers are officers, and will revolt if they feel like their troops are being utterly expended for no good reason. There again, the pressure would be too great. That said, I had studied the Iraq issue for years. I protested Clinton in San Francisco when he planned a new wave of bombings in 98. I knew the WMD issue backwards and forwards, and knew there were none. But I also knew the current mood on Iraq, and knew that it could be manipulated. I fairly new to the Iran issue, but I think I know it well enough to know nthat the last 3 years have made an Iran attack impossible. There will be no general attack on Iran. It is simply not doable, at both the level of popular sentiment and the level of actual power.
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retread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
70. There you go with that "reality-based" thinking again! n/t
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
72. Okay -- I don't think it's going to happen.
(SOMEONE has to play the other side on this thread, right?)Too many negatives, and no positives -- even for them.

But they might be considering some action that is short of this nuke scenario -- conventional weapons? -- that really won't seem so bad compared to what we really feared.

Anyway, that's what I think -- then again, I didn't think they were going to go into iraq, either...
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Bob3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
76. Attacking Iraq was crazy and look what they did
anybody who wasn't beating the war drums pretty much called what has happened to Iraq. They didn't listen then to anybody else and they won't now. They have developed group-think into an art form. What's really nuts is that they lie to themselves as much as they do to us. * said talking to Helen Thomas that the reason he attacked Iraq was that Saddam wouldn't let inspections take place. That's a flat lie. * was the one who told the inspectors to get out before we went in. But I'm sure in his heart * believes that Saddam was keeping the inspectors out. That's were the real crazy comes in. At least Cheney knows he's a lying scumbag - * thinks he's on the side of the angels.

In all this I find my self wondering what Tom (where english sentences go to die) Friedman says about all this. He was a big cheerleader for Iraq, compared it to the Normandy Invasion (mother of god) so I wonder what he feels about Iran - what will that be Iwo Jima?




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demo dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
77. Krugman's wrote his piece to start a dialog anyway Intl. experts
Edited on Tue Apr-11-06 03:45 PM by demo dutch
claim they're years away from a nuclear bomb
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subterranean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
79. Remember, Bush denied his intention to attack Iraq
almost right up until the day of the invasion. He kept insisting that war would be a "last resort," even when it became clear he was going to invade no matter what. He will say anything to mask his true intentions, regardless of the issue -- Iraq, Social Security, the Plame investigation, domestic spying, Iran, you name it.

With this maladministration, it's safe to assume that whatever they say, the opposite is closer to the truth.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
84. If the Amnesty Bill goes thru, I don't care who we nuke........
Maybe he feels like me?
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
85. They don't care
Dubya and company are on a mission from God.

Sanity, logic or even causality don't factor into it. If it is God's will (as spoken in Dubya's ear) that Iran needs to be attacked, then that's what happens. Result, Dubya goes to heaven. End of story. If Rummy and some of the others can ride his coat-tails to heaven, so much the better.

They're probably perfectly willing to let Dubya have his delusions and ride his coat-tails to the bank, setting up contract after contract with Halliburton, Carlyle and whatever other contractors they've got hidden in their pockets. The profits from those tidy little enterprises will never see the light of day, the gleam in the tax-man's eye or the inside of a US bank.

They WANT Iran to have nukes, or at least to be able to make a show of pretending they do, so Dubya the "war president" can be the first president in our lifetime to push the big red button. They'll call it being "pro-active". Dubya will call it God's will.

They literally don't care if the planet is destroyed in the ongoing mess because they and their close family will personally have the resources (hidden offshore) to ride out the storm. They'll be sitting on the beach at Aruba watching TV. The show - us watching our skin fall off. Reality TV at its finest.

Has Nevil Shute lived in vain?

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Fiendish Thingy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
87. As horrific as a nuclear attack on Iran would be...
I sense that it could/would accelerate the tipping point we are already approaching...

Because Bush is consistently at/near 60% DISapproval ratings (Clinton's highest was 53%, and that was in his first term), the narrative in the hearts and minds of most Americans appears to be changing, even if the MSM is starting to play catch up one moment, while continuing to catapult the propoganda the next (witness the recent WaPo).

It will be an uphill struggle to convince America that Iran is an imminent threat, and almost impossible to convince people that the use of nukes is justified. Even if there's another 9/11 incident, I think fewer people will be swayed, and more will be skeptical of any rationale for war Bush puts forth.

If Bush is truly Batshit, I-Am-The-Messiah looney tunes, and is allowed to make a pre-emptive nuclear strike, his presidency will end, I am sure of it.

What scares me is that his official dictatorship (and WWIII) may then begin if congress/military/you & I don't rise up en masse to stop him.

As for not paying your mortgage, I don't see much chance of that taking hold.

On the other hand, a general strike lasting several days, with no purchases, staying home from work, and demonstrations that garner local attention (regardless of the MSM coverage) with organized calls for impeachment (I know we're already doing the latter, but in the wake of a nuclear attack, things would be different) could gain significant momentum.

A general strike would include millions of people who are not homeowners, and could include many members of the immigrant community, who, as we have seen recently, seem to get better turnouts at their demonstrations than the progressive community of late...

Or am I just dreaming?
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
89. We don't know if they're that crazy, but we do know that their credibility
is shot. Here the public is debating how insane their government is, and no one can overlook the fact that they lied for war before.

Solution: Congress could pass another resolution revoking the IWR (and not agree to an Iran Resolution, btw.) Remove the problem of the preznit's damaged credibility, and promise that if we attack another country, it will be because a case for war has been proved and the Congress has authorized it.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
90. Yes. They are crazy and they will do anything.
Better put in a sheltering kit, Will. We did. And I'm so not kidding.
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msatty99 Donating Member (465 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
92. No body is going to drop a nuke on Iran
and everybody is just overreacting a tad. Come on...I love Sy Hersh...but even Mr. Hersh
wants to sell his story!

Even numbnuts Bush won't do this.
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the other one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
93. The IDEA is to provoke massive counterattack.
They are crazy enough to provoke a retalliation which may kill 20K US soldiers. That is the goal. It will take massive casualties to re-ignite Bush's popularity and to bring the home front back in line (they hope). If it works out, people will be lining up to enlist and tripping over themselves to sacrifice for the war effort. The victims of the Iranian Counterattack will not die in vain!
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #93
127. Nothing is going to re-ignite Bush's popularity.
People are just not going to fall for that pre-emptive war kool-aid a second time. The entire neocon bag of propaganda and media manipulation tricks is empty; people are finally starting to see through all that. What frightens me is that it may be too late for public opinion to make any difference.

If he hits first and they hit back, everyone will know WHY they retaliated, even if there are massive American casualties. Who wouldn't do the same thing in their place? The idea that the Iranians are going to just sit there and let themselves get bombed into oblivion is completely insane.

If 20,000 American troops get killed when/if Iran counterattacks, if Bush makes the first move I will hold Bush responsible for their deaths. Not the Iranians.

The thing I'm most afraid of is that at this point Bush doesn't actually give a damn about his falling approval ratings, because he's got his power locked in already. Either the next election is "taken care of" before it starts or he'll declare martial law and there won't be any election.

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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
94. Attack on Iran = assassination of Archduke Ferdinand
And we called World Wars I and II bad....
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
99. "I'm not going to attack Iran with nuclear weapons" sounds a lot
like "If someone on staff leaked Plame's identity, we're going to find them".
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
101. LINK TO FINAL
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yvr girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
103. Please God, don't let the wackos who run the country to the south
be as crazy as we fear. I don't want to get caught in the fallout.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #103
106. Hell, we're already caught in the middle
Our soldiers are getting shot at in Afghanistan fighting Dubya's first Oil War.

We're on the Great Circle route to Iran.

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=LAX-THR&RANGE=&PATH-COLOR=&PATH-UNITS=mi&SPEED-GROUND=&SPEED-UNITS=kts&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=&MAP-STYLE=
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #103
146. Yeah, I've been praying to.
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Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
104. The Son of a Bitch is Crazy!! He will do it! He wants to do it!!
Bush realizes no one can or will stop him do anything before the 2006 elections. He can knock everything off the news with one order to commence airstrikes. As long as he doesn't use nukes, no one will stop him or even try very hard to stop him.

Bush relishes a vision of himself as a great military-war leader. But he knows two pissant wars in Iraq and Afghanistan do not a legacy make. Using a nuke means a legacy forever. Changing the governments of three major Islamic countries - now that's a legacy in his mind.

He's going to attack Iran - it's just a question of when, how much, and with which weapons?
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npincus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
105. the dry drunk wants an Iraq Re-Do: his legacy is to "Save Iran"
Crazy motherfucker. How can he be stopped?
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
107. Alas, calling Bush 'insane' is not hyperbole
Incredibly ill informed, delusional, speaking to gawd, messianic tendencies out the wazoo, and a 'who gives a shit' attitude about people that is so extreme he is doubtless a sociopath....
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DianaForRussFeingold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #107
111. 'You don't cross George Bush'
Hmmm... I thought this gave some insight of his personality.. By DOUG THOMPSON
Apr 11, 2006, 01:35



"In 1999, while I worked on a background piece on Harris County, Texas, judge Robert Eckels, some Houston politicians invited me to a fund-raising reception for then governor George W. Bush.

Bush, already mentioned as a front-runner for the GOP Presidential nomination in 2000, easily won a second term as governor the year before by building a very un-Republican like coalition of Hispanics and moderates.

Bush sipped a bottle of Corona as he walked among well-to-do Texans at the outdoor event, slapping some on the back. He approached and stuck out his hand.

"I'm George Bush," he said. The handshake, quick and limp, lacked any warmth or sincerity. The plastic smile looked phony. He moved on.

Later in the evening, I walked behind a group where Bush spoke with some of his cronies. They were talking about possible opponents for the GOP nomination. One member of the group suggested some opponents might use Bush's less-than-sterling past against him.

"Let 'em try," Bush said with swagger. "I'll fucking destroy them."

I recounted the story with my host as he drove me back to my hotel.

"That's our governor," he said. "Don't let the smile fool you. He can turn on you in a second. You don't cross George Bush."



The corpses from George W. Bush's political wars litter the ....more http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_8439.shtml


:scared:
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
108. Crazier than most people want to believe! Caligula crazy. Hitler crazy.
Edited on Tue Apr-11-06 05:41 PM by BrklynLiberal
Dr Strangelove Crazy. Should be on thorazine crazy.
:scared: Crazy enough to scare me to death.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #108
159. Crazy enough to scare me to death too!
Bush, Cheney and their whole Neo-con cabal are absolutely scary crazy and to answer Will's question, they are crazier than any of us can even imagine and very, very dangerous...

:scared:
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
109. Is it bait and switch?
Edited on Tue Apr-11-06 05:45 PM by endarkenment
So here is a thought, perhaps not much of a thought. Suppose that the campaign to justify bombing the crap out of Iran is a big bait and switch campaign. They scare the crap out of us by taking the nuclear option beyond 'contingency planning' to 'consulting with congress', they build their stupid ass Divine Strake to blow up zillas and cactus in the desert for the benefit of the las vegas tourist industry and then when they have us scared shitless that they really are going to go out and commit an abomination, they pull the switch. Instead they offer to just send our armada over to Iran with conventional weapons. Ahhh... we all sigh with relief, we've dodged the bullet. They get to have their Iranian mixup without the nuclear atrocity, just before election 06, they steal another few million votes, confuse their shaky independents, and squeak through the elections. Fuck them. They are vile evil bastards. But isn't that what they are doing here? Aren't they baiting us to buy into the lesser evil of a non-nuclear strike?

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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
110. I have an idea, declare the White House a Federal Home for the Insane
Bush wants to go down as a great President.

Bush totally screwed up Iraq. Iran is sort of a do over for him. You know--if at first you don't succeed try try again.

Now we also know that Bush is not the sharpest knife in the draw--aside from being, apparently, a few fries short of a happy meal, so how about Congress declares the White House the Washington DC Facility for the Certifiably Insane.

Inside his padded Oval Office (new wall coverings, Mr. President, the First Lady designed it) Bush could continue to give orders to Cheney and Rumsfeld and Condi, etc. Unknown to them, however, the low level staffers sent to carry out their orders are all doctors and nurses. Someone else--maybe we could get Bush senior and Clinton to do a bipartisan temporary presidential thingy--is actually running the country. If Bush Senior won't betray his son--though why on earth wouldn't he--then I think Gerald Ford is still around--at any rate it would be good to have Bill back, sort of like watching Captain Kirk sinking back into the command chair on the Enterprise after defeating the Klingons, I feel better already just thinking about it.

Bush could then be like one of those guys in the loony bin who thinks he's Napoleon--giving orders left and right with no one to actually carry them out.

Alright, this is crazy, but is it any more insane than even contemplating using nuclear weapons on Iraq?

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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
112. The simple answer is that tyrants will use what ever they got to stay ...
Edited on Tue Apr-11-06 05:53 PM by nolabels
in power. Why would you think * would be any different?
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electron_blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
113. Yes, well, the American people are in denial about many things, including
the fact that their President is insane. Even many Bush opponents are in denial about that.

Great article, thanks for posting it. The sooner America wakes up, the more hope I actually have about our country.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
120. Crazy enough to do this to distract from Bush being the leaker of Plame.
These people need to be ousted now!
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
121. I have no doubt that Hersh is right, and that the plans are being drawn
as we sit here, typing away--including plans for the use of nuclear "bunker busters" on Iranian nuclear sites. It's interesting that Rove is alleged to be an opponent of military action against Iran; apparently the political calculus won't add up if US troops are taking heavy casualties as we head into the midterm election. That would put him at odds with Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice, most likely--the recent Bushco faultlines continuing to widen. What worries me most about this current "battle for Bush's soul" is that I've seen no evidence that he actually has one. Instead, he carries a wealth of idiocy and an unerring instinct for doing exactly the wrong thing at any given moment. Frankly, I fear for the future of my country.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
124. Hersh's sources in the military aren't fundies.
They somehow survived Rummy's axe. They're the rational branch of the military. They're scared. And because they're scared, I'm scared.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #124
147. Also, I quite thinking this was a plant when Murpha backed
Hersh.
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TroubleMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
125. When Rove is the voice of reason and moderation.....that's scary.
The guy who's the definition of hardball, drag-it-into-the-mud politics is the voice of reason. First they had Colin Powell (a guy who tried to cover up Mai Lai) was the "voice of reason." ....and now it's Rove??

Scary stuff.
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
126. Nah, I don't think so. I'm worried, but I'm not this worried yet.
It is time to start working on spreading a counter argument (against military action) that reminds them of all the BAD things that WILL happen, even if this "operation" is deemed a success.

Losing an Aircraft Carrier (and several thousand Sailors) to those Iranian Missiles would be a good place to start.

I'm sticking by my theory that this is a ploy to send world Oil prices through the $100.00 per Barrel mark, for short term gain for the Bush Cabal <http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2563769>

If this is still an issue in August, then I'll begin to worry.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
128. Not a doubt in my mind he's crazy enough.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
129. Most wars, Iraq obviously included, begin with severe delusion.
Anyone who doesn't believe that they are crazy enough should read Barbara Tuchman's The Guns of August.

Compared to Bush, the Kaiser, Czar Nicholas and the others were rocket scientists.

He is that crazy. What's more, he's a sociopath, completely devoid of ethics or sense.
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catzies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
130. "...COVERT MILITARY ACTION...IS ALREADY UNDER WAY..."
(Emphasis mine.)

God help us all. :cry:
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tlsmith1963 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
131. This is Why...
...Bush needs to be impeached. He is 100% crazy. I wouldn't put it past him at all to nuke Iran. And I am totally anti-nuke. I hate those damn things. If Bush did nuke Iran, it would be the darkest day of my life. I don't know if I could deal with what my country had done. It's bad enough that we nuked Japan once. Do we have to do it *again*? No, I want Bush out of office. He is just too dangerous.

Tammy
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marzipanni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
132. Battle for Bush*s soul
:evilfrown: >------------> :crazy: <------------< O8)

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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #132
134. bush has a soul?
whatever 'soul' he may have needs a tune-up if he does
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
133. This has to be
my favorite piece you have written.:thumbsup:
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
138. I do believe this bunch IS crazy enough to attack Iran
Just look at Bush, swaggering around like he's top dog, untouchable by any rule, law, policy, procedure, and certainly above the concerns of anyone but himself and his cabal. Do they give a flying shit about what we think? Nope. Do they care about the consequences of such an action? Nope. Mr. "I'm a War President" is living in a world most of the rest of us do not inhabit. He fancies himself a swaggering cowboy, but he's a cartoon caricature, a bad B-movie imitation of a tough guy. However, instead of being able to point at him and laugh at the silly swaggering little man, I am instead fearful of what he is capable of. When you have no conscious, when you have no empathy, when you have no genuine feel for life, for other human beings, what is to stop you? I fear there is nothing in Bush that would stop him from taking this next, horrendous step. The really horrible thing is, he does have this "messianic mind-set", as Sy Hersh wrote in his article, and is convinced that anything he wants to do, anything he does, is his God-given duty to do. The Fundies think he's there to bring on Armageddon. I don't think he really believes that, but I do believe he plays into it. And I believe he takes great pleasure in being the way he is -- and that the rest of humanity is there solely to feed into his increasing sense of being all-powerful.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
140. How crazy does one have to be "with God on our side?"
:sarcasm:

"But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side."
~ Bob Dylan
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Horseradish Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
149. Economic ramifications
Tinfoil hat devil's advocate here ... saying: haven't the multi-nationals (oil and superstructure) been experiencing record profits like NEVER before? Like a bear eating everything in front of its nose to bulk up for hibernation?:shrug:
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FULL_METAL_HAT Donating Member (673 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
151. Sy Hersh's credibility is being used to keep IRAN story #1 DISTRACTION!
Edited on Tue Apr-11-06 10:38 PM by FULL_METAL_HAT

I believe Sy Hersh's contacts inside the Pentagon are KNOWN by the * admin people and they are being fed a special diet of "they're really gonna do it".

And this is for one simple reason: keep the talk of *'s failures, lies, and treasons OFF the #1 spot.

As long as people are asking "are they really that crazy", their attention and focus on "they are criminals" is diverted and deflected.

God bless Sy, but anyone can be lead down the garden path, ESPECIALLY if the NSA/AT&T "Narus 6400" is set to watch for any communication from a specific individual...

This is classic diversionary tactics.

They KNOW how deep in the shit they are now, and are quite willing to throw up ANY chaff no matter how nutty sounding. Quite frankly, if this shit doesn't stay in #1 spot they might pull out some REAL nutbar stuff like "Russia is threating to nuke us" -- or make up your own crazy distraction story!

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Redneck Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
152. Heh...
I read the first few paragraphs, all the while going yeah you're right, but they're completely bug fuck insane. Insane enough to go through with nuclear strikes on Iran. I was unaware of the Krugman article, and you're right that it is frightening to have to think, just how crazy are these people anyway.

For my part I almost drove off the road, screaming at the radio, when I first heard the news.
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confludemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
153. To answer you question, rhetorical or not: pretty goddamn flamin' NUTS
such that anyone who is in a position to GO FOR THE THROAT politically speaking and is not doing it or who is trying to "work with" them, is worthless
But maybe you are hinting at that yourself but you shouldn't be hinting at it. Subtlety and crafted messages? Fuck that, it has only led us to where we are now. Unbridled attack, day after day.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
154. If Capitan Dumbass starts a war, we won't make it to the midterms.
The magnitude of another massive war in SW Asia would cause a global war between the US and China with various other countries joining in the fray on different sides. Yes, an even more massive war than World War II (think about that one). It it goes nuclear, it will dwarf the war both my grandfathers fought in. The whole globe would be set ablaze with killing and pain.

Certainly Cheney ain't THAT stupid. I mean, I think they have the potential to do another war. The odds just seem against it this time. I hate playing the odds.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
156. They are as crazy as any other Totalitarians
From the more-Bushlike Pinochet, marcos, and the New Phillipino Bushevik El Presidente (by dint of viter fraud) Arroyo, to the still Bushlike but much more violent Stalin and Hitler.

They are all members of the same family of Totalitarian Monsters.

They are all crazy and will happily kill us all, so long as they get to sit in their bunkers hundreds of feet beneath the rubble and sip tequila and play war.
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flying_wahini Donating Member (856 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
164. Mark my words, he plans on using illegal immigrants for the
draft........ just write in a provision that if they
serve 4 or 5 years, then they can have their citizenship.
Why do you think they the amnesty for illegals is in
the news lately.......?????
Gee, do you really think that isn't part of their big plan?
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saberjet22 Donating Member (118 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
166. message to Bush
George,
You're fired!
To fellow DUers, inform this idiot that you, as an American, are exercising your right as an employer (the asshole does work for us) and terminating the bastard.
So, Georgie, it's time to clear out. Take a hike. I repeat, George, you're fired!
I wish it were that simple.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
167. OUR LIVES ARE IN DANGER. I've been saying this for some time. Al Gore said
Edited on Wed Apr-12-06 10:45 AM by Beam Me Up
it before the past election. He called for the resignation of practically the entire cabinet on national security grounds.

When are people going to get it? These people ARE insane. This isn't a figure of speech. The ARE insane and they have at their disposal the largest stockpile of WMD ever in human history. This whole game has been one long tiresome plot, from *'s installation through 9/11 and all the rest of it. The cabal that has taken control of our government and military is the biggest threat to humanity that has ever existed on the face of the Earth. Hell, yeah, it sounds like hyperbole. That doesn't mean it isn't true. Moreover, what people really don't get is, this isn't incompetence. They WANT to destroy the United States of America. That IS the plan! And if they can sow the seeds of global warfare for the foreseeable future, so much the better.

They need to be removed from office and NOW.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
168. We need pressure Congress take back 5/04 resolution authorizing Pres!
I'm surprised by the hesitancy and confusion of your Iran column.

hat we need is not to play "Will he or won't he?" It is to pressure Congress to take back the May 6th, 2004 resolution authorizing the President to use "any and all appropriate means." He should have to come to Congress for a declaration of war, as required by Article One of the Constitution. And we should insist on hearings and debate that ensure Congress votes "No."

Don't lull activists into armchair punditry. Put them to work!

Signed, A friend of IndyOp...
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Old Smokey Donating Member (193 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
169. Great Article
These people scare the living shit out of me. They are fucked up.
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JPZenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
171. US Troops Are Targets of Retaliation
We have about 200,000 servicepersons in the countries surrounding Iran, including ships off the coast, 135,000 troops in Iraq, troops in Afghanistan and Kuwait. If the Iranians wanted to retaliate for the US attack, they would make inviting targets for Iran.

Also, remember that Iran has twice the population of Iraq. This is not an easy country to counquer.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
176. They are crazy as rabid dogs on coke-laced LSD.

If you waved a cardboard cut-out of Michael Moore with Cindy Sheehan's ears and Bin Laden's beard attached at them they'd strip-search it and pray. They buy into their own virally-inspired shit. The Great Demon Choronzon has clamped onto their minds with huge trans-dimensional tentacles slithering up through the hell dimensions from the Abyss and is snacking on their souls like a big sexy Momma Hagfish.
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
179. Hard to say what Bush will do
Edited on Wed Apr-12-06 10:57 PM by Blue_Roses
He's impulsive and goes by a different set of standards than the rational mind. I think Bush definitely wants to leave office with a legacy and so far he's coming up with zero.

Iraq's a mess. Social Security reform bombed on him. Gas prices are soaring (even though his oil buddies thank him) and the average Joe is PISSED. He's consumed himself with leaks and lies. He looks like a failure as a President and that small fraction of things in itself can drive an impulsive man to do almost anything. Bush is no different.

I say it's a matter of time. Desperate men do desperate things and Bush is desperate right now. His flailing ego can't take much more.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 02:02 AM
Response to Original message
180. The only comforting thought on their threat to Iran is this...
They won't do shit before the election. The Iran thing is all about scaring up some votes. Once they do Iran, the erosion of support begins. So I'm sure they won't go after Iran at least until December.
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haab Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
181. Iran is a threat to Israel....
...and that is the bottom-line.... They pose absolutely no threat to us.


In the past the Neocon closed all avenues to dialog, when the Iranian President (Khatami) repeatedly invited the US to start a new dialog with Iran. Reason being the Iranians main concern, Israeli Nukes and occupation of Palestine, will never be addressed by the US Administration.


The Nuclear option is being considered because it is far away enough from Israel. Only Muslim nations will be harmed...! And that is the sad truth and the main calculation of risk. The right-wing US media has already tested the US public and the majority aren't too concerned about Iraqis being killed (innocent or otherwise) compared to the death of an invading US soldier.

All that is needed for success is to keep the majority of us Americans ignorant of the truth..... (and the lies have already started)

If the US were to gain Iranian Crude Oil supplies, then nuking Iran is worth it to this Admin..... As Cheney told a Saudi Prince they are invading Iraq "because it is doable".....


There are only two considerations in this Admins mind:

1)securing oil supplies
2)protecting Israel

Forget everything else......
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