OK, so we've left current illegal immigrants alone, what next?

[question everything]

By now I don't even know what the demonstrations are about. The Senate was going to allow illegals to obtain citizenship, or, at least, a legal status. Why protest?

But let's say that we do nothing. What next? Do we continue to let illegal people come over and take jobs that "no one wants" - reducing even further any chances for high school graduates with no skills to find decent paying jobs?

If the number of illegal immigrants is - let's take the low figure - now 10 million. Do we wait until there are 16 illegal in 2016? 24 illegals in 2024?

We, liberals, always pride ourselves that we think beyond the now and the immediate. This is why we are concerned about the environment and about energy supply and about retirement and social security and health care. Should we not think about the future of immigration?

OK, start flaming.

[bryant69]

1. OK.

And thank you for the invitation.

1. I doubt the protests were about the "Guest Worker" part of the problem primarily. As you know there were a number of bills discussed some of which had some very unsavory aspects. They were also about the racist rhetoric of many of those who support this kind of Immigration reform.

2. There has been plenty of talk here about approaching illegal immigration. A very small portion of it has been along the lines of we shouldn't care about illegal immigration, but the bulk of it has discussed various ways of fixing this problem. People have proposed different ways of doing it (I favor a three prong approach - 1. More Legal immigration, 2. criminalizing those corporations who choose to exploit illegal immigrants, having real disincentives), 3. beefing up border security a bit), but to suggest that the solution around here is to do nothing is not entirely accurate.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[grottieyottie]

6. well

Maybe the Native Americans should kick everyone out? Just to make a point. In fact, the Latin Americans (Hispanics) via their lineage may very have more moral rights to North America than any whities. Hey - it happened in Israel.

This is a difficult topic, but I fear there's not much stopping the movement of people except the movement of ideas. Which is happening via the Internet in the information age as is evident in places such as Bangalore, India.

Where hundreds of thousands of computer and call centre jobs, formerly done in the US, are now being done by East Indians. Not to mention former US and Western industrial jobs in China.

The next or 'new' generation of jobs in the post industrial West will very likely be telecommunicating information workers. And their will be a tiered internet in my opinion.

Immigration has had positive effects on the economies of Canada, Australia and even the UK which is tremendously crowded.

Control is important - yes. But not felonious Minuteman inspired tactics and structures.

That's institutionalised racism.

[bryant69]

8. Youre kind of all over hte place here

But let's respond to your points in order.

You have a point with the Native Americans - a great harm was done to them, as we all know. But I'm not sure that their experience has any bearing on the current case. Other than that we should see how some tribes faught agaimst the illegal immigrents of their day (i.e. the europeons) and it didn't seem to work in that case.

I don't know what to make of the middle bit about the movement of ideas - it seems to have no bearing on illegal immigration. I guess I can see the connection between Corporations wanting to exploit the hell out of illegal aliens here and wanting to exploit the hell out of third world nations without union laws. But I'd be opposed to both practices.

Also i don't support the minutemen so I don't know what that last bit is about. I did initial sympathize with their cry for stronger border security - I think we do need stronger border security as well. But their true nature (racist) soon revealed itself.

Bryant

[grottieyottie]

9. I am

pointing out multiple scenarios.

The movement of ideas refers to the information age - the new economy - and jobs of the future. It is relevent if only for the fact that jobs leaving the country to an Indian in Bangalore is not much different than a Mexican taking one's construction job.

Because it seems like you are concerned about jobs - and illegals grabbing them.

I say the VERY nature of the Western workforce is shifting and it may not be that bad. As new economies develop around the Internet (The dot com is only really beginning - Web 2.0 is not far) it's not only a global workforce but a global market. The days of working from Cradle to Grave at GM were over a long time ago. That industrial model will hopefully be replaced by another.

[newyawker99]

13. Hi grottieyottie!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[question everything]

7. Thanks. Now, how do we move from suggestion to implementation?

More legal immigration - how, increase the quota from say, 200,000 to 500,000 a year (I don't know the numbers, just an example)? Do you really think that this would reduce the number of illegals who continue to come? And, should this number be allocated only to Central and South American? As I have said before, if we do see a need for below minimum jobs, I would rather give them the people in Darfur, or Ethiopia, or other places across the globe who literally are dying.

Criminalizing the corporation - I think that most employers are small business owners like contractors and store owners, as well as other immigrants.

Beefing up border security - again, how? I think that funds have been given again and again. Unless you form a human chain across the border there will always be places that people will come. Desperate people will always find ways.

Frankly, we need to help Mexico and other countries make their countries more livable so that will not be a need to come over here for the "American Dream." I think that illegals who have been here, say, 10 years, should be allowed to live the country and enter back so that they could decide for themselves whether it is time to move back.

Just think, if all the illegals stayed in their countries and formed grassroots organizations to remove corruption and crime - they may not have a need to cross the border.

[grottieyottie]

11. e

US corporations quit raping the rest of the Americas for resources - paying a few corrupt people at the top with the rest fall into poverty...

You really should read Confessions of an Economic Hitman sometime.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1576753018/102-2543931-5803343?v=glance&n=283155


John Perkins started and stopped writing Confessions of an Economic Hit Man four times over 20 years. He says he was threatened and bribed in an effort to kill the project, but after 9/11 he finally decided to go through with this expose of his former professional life. Perkins, a former chief economist at Boston strategic-consulting firm Chas. T. Main, says he was an "economic hit man" for 10 years, helping U.S. intelligence agencies and multinationals cajole and blackmail foreign leaders into serving U.S. foreign policy and awarding lucrative contracts to American business. "Economic hit men (EHMs) are highly paid professionals who cheat countries around the globe out of trillions of dollars," Perkins writes. Confessions of an Economic Hit Man is an extraordinary and gripping tale of intrigue and dark machinations. Think John Le Carré, except it's a true story.

Perkins writes that his economic projections cooked the books Enron-style to convince foreign governments to accept billions of dollars of loans from the World Bank and other institutions to build dams, airports, electric grids, and other infrastructure he knew they couldn't afford. The loans were given on condition that construction and engineering contracts went to U.S. companies. Often, the money would simply be transferred from one bank account in Washington, D.C., to another one in New York or San Francisco. The deals were smoothed over with bribes for foreign officials, but it was the taxpayers in the foreign countries who had to pay back the loans. When their governments couldn't do so, as was often the case, the U.S. or its henchmen at the World Bank or International Monetary Fund would step in and essentially place the country in trusteeship, dictating everything from its spending budget to security agreements and even its United Nations votes. It was, Perkins writes, a clever way for the U.S. to expand its "empire" at the expense of Third World citizens. While at times he seems a little overly focused on conspiracies, perhaps that's not surprising considering the life he's led. --Alex Roslin

Or watch a movie called The Corporation.

As for any more discourse from me - I am not sure it is worth it - having just read your last post.

[liberal N proud]

2. Only one comment: about: jobs that "no one wants"

Most of those jobs are jobs that Americans did want and did do when they were paid a descent wage. But in some cases they were not even offered the jobs.
I know back in 1980 the Meat Processing facility where I worked during the summer while attending college was closed. Laying off $12 to $15/hr employees.
One year later, it re-opened, same jobs for $3 to $5/hr, the jobs were not even offered to legal citizens. They bused in people from Mexico and put them up in run down houses with-in the community.

[question everything]

4. I agree, and this is why I put that phrase this way

Not only do the jobs pay little, but there is, of course, no health insurance provided.

This is something that we, as Americans need to face:

Do we want to purchase cheap merchandise at Wal-Mart and accept the disappearance of whole industry, like the textile one? (Never mind outsourcing)

Do we want to pay cheaper price for produce and for labor and accept the loss of many non-skilled labor? And, mind you, I am not even sure how true the phrase that "a head of lettuce would cost $5.00 without illegal immigration."

And then, if businesses claim to survive thanks to cheap labor - how much do the owners and the managers make?

We've always allowed for temporary guest labor in our fields and our farms. But now we have them in construction, too. These used to be good paying jobs. I remember during the farm crisis in the 80s, many construction workers from the Midwest went to Texas that then had a booming economy.

We need to have a comprehensive illustration of data showing the economic costs of the current situation and the economic costs if we stop hiring them.

[grottieyottie]

10. t.

"Not only do the jobs pay little, but there is, of course, no health insurance provided."

US governments, long controlled by the corporate elite, has turned it into a corptocracy.

Pills and medicare don't have to be expensive. But the corporations dictate congress. And ensure they do. Despite America's elderly to now travelling on weekend 'day bus trips' out of large cities near the Canadian border to buy their meds in Canada because they can't afford to eat if they don't.

"Do we want to purchase cheap merchandise at Wal-Mart and accept the disappearance of whole industry, like the textile one? (Never mind outsourcing)"

Of course you do. It's human nature. It's called value and it's when you get a good product for a fair price.

"Do we want to pay cheaper price for produce and for labor and accept the loss of many non-skilled labor? And, mind you, I am not even sure how true the phrase that "a head of lettuce would cost $5.00 without illegal immigration."

In the Netherlands - There are no people on the streets (except in dingy parts of Amsterdam), full medical and dental care (including FREE meds from the pharmacy) sets a four member family home back about €100 a month. Machines and farmers pick the veggies and it exports more vegetables than any other country in Europe. Despite being smaller than Rhode Island. Lettuce costs €0.25 at the supermarket.

"And then, if businesses claim to survive thanks to cheap labor - how much do the owners and the managers make?"

Most of it. Look at the shameful CEO wages in the US. Who needs that much money?

"We've always allowed for temporary guest labor in our fields and our farms. But now we have them in construction, too. These used to be good paying jobs. I remember during the farm crisis in the 80s, many construction workers from the Midwest went to Texas that then had a booming economy."

If they can do the job they will. Bottom line is - I don't think the US government cares for it's people nearly as much as EU members. Imagine what those military budgets could do? All they are doing now is forcing kids into being professional and private soldiers 'cause there is jobs there. Paid to militarize earth and eventually space in US hegemony. Maybe.

Then again.
ALISA SAYS: Sigh. According the U.S. government, all male immigrants – legal and otherwise – are required by U.S. law to register for selective service.

According to the National Center for Immigration Law, one in ten U.S. soliders who have DIED in Iraq have been immigrants. Five percent of those serving in our military are illegal immigrants.

The first soldier to die for the United States in the current war in Iraq was Marine Lance Cpl. Jose Gutierrez, an illegal immigrant from Guatemala.

He died for you.

You are not in Iraq fighting for anyone. You are home, sending lie-riddled missives to strangers at 3 a.m. on your computer.

Enough said.

http://atrios.blogspot.com/

[grottieyottie]

3. Watch this.

http://www.markfiore.com/animation/phobia.html

[question everything]

5. Thankfully, the answer is NO to all the "questions"

and, until recently, I would automatically side against all the ones who would complain about illegal immigration because there was always and undercurrent of racism.

But when I saw the thousands of protesters I could not help but wonder why do not protest against the war, or against lack of health care, and against the eliminating of so many domestic programs.

And, as I've stated in another post, I would like to see an independent economic data showing the burden that illegal immigration has on us.

I lived in California during the 90s, when the Clinton years brought economic expansion to all levels of income but everything else is broke. Heath care for uninsured, road infrastructure, schools. One reason is the infamous Prop. 13, but another was the heavy load on these systems with no income tax to help. A CBS report yesterday put the loss of taxes at twice that of the taxes actually collected.

I think that we need to strip down any hint of racism and to look - if we can - at cold numbers.

[Cleita]

12. Annex Mexico and make them American.

This would be only if Mexico agrees to this by treaty.
Then they would come under our federal laws. This way nobody is illegal anymore. Isn't this the big problem? That they BROKE THE LAW AND SHOULD BE PUNISHED? If all Mexicans are Americans they aren't breaking the law anymore.

Somehow I don't think this will change how many people think. They will find something else to object to because like the varied and increasing excuses to invade Iraq, the real reason people object to the immigrants isn't being laid out on the table anymore than the real reason we invaded Iraq is.