ALL, repeat ALL white players tested?

[auburnblu]

I think the guys were probably acting like jerks and not on their best behavior, with the DNA report, not sure I believe a rape happened, but believe the women weren't exactly treated well.

A disturbing fact NO ONE is talking about is that ALL 46 white players on the team were DNA tested. Were all of the white players even at the party? That is a very important question. If something like this happened with the University of Hawaii Men's swim team, would ALL Asians on the team be tested if they were not at the scene of an incident. If something happened with the University of Texas at El Paso baseball team, would ALL Latino players be tested if they were not at the scene of an incident. If it happened with the Auburn football team, would ALL black players be tested, even if they weren't present when the incident happened. The cries of racism and profiling would be non-stop.

What if players were tested who weren't even there? That is troubling. Not as troubling as a young woman being abused, but shows that profiling is alive and well.

[benburch]

1. If nobody orgasmed... How could there be seminal DNA? nt

[MiniMe]

7. Yes, just like a girl can get pregnant with no orgasm

seminal fluid is released even without orgasm

[hexola]

12. Yeah - but it probably has some DNA...(nt)

[MiniMe]

23. Exactly my point. : )

[U4ikLefty]

63. One sperm would indicate in a DNA test???

I thought it would be too small a sample.

[azurnoir]

17. DNA is DNA no matter what

part of your body it's from. They probibly used the "cheek swab" method on the players, were you simply wipe a Q-tip like swab inside of your cheek much less invasive. As far as matching with the victim that swab was of fluid from inside her (I assume) vagina and doesn't mean that there was seminal fluid, the DNA could have been hers. If these players wore ah hats then there would not have been any there.

[benburch]

20. Exactly.

And if any of them watch CSI, they would know to wear condoms when committing a rape...

[Cronus Protagonist]

2. Wasn't it voluntary?

On Edit, apparently it was not voluntary.... here's what I found....

"Authorities ordered 46 of the 47 players on Duke's lacrosse team to submit DNA samples to investigators. Because the woman said her attackers were white, the team's sole black player was not tested."

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory?id=1828331

So the whities were tested because the woman claimed all her "attackers" were white. If she had said her attacker was black, I think they would have tested the black guy, don't you think?

YMMV

[auburnblu]

13. If he was at the party yeah

If the sole black player was not at the party, no he shouldn't be tested. Once again, am I the only one getting it? What if a player could prove he was not at the party and was still tested simply I repeat simply because of his race. That is troubling. This is like a report of a group of three black males driving by a house in a green car and a few minutes later in town police are pulling cars with black guys over in the same town doesn't matter if the cars are green or blue or black or white. As long as the driver is black the cars are pulled over. And that happens and its wrong. Get a clue DU, geez quit supporting crap like this.

[roguevalley]

3. makes you wonder in this CSI world if they wore hats. probably.

anyone know what that would mean? the girl showed injury consistent with this. what now I wonder?

[hexola]

4. She claimed her attackers were white and on the LAX team...?

What is so disturbing...?

Its not like she takes names and IDs with every dollar bill...

And its not too much to belive all 46 white players were at the party...

[auburnblu]

8. Its that ALL were tested

What if they were ALL not at the party. I listed other examples. Can you imagine the outrage in my other three examples if ALL were tested and not ALL were at the place of the incident. Damn, double standards and acceptance of profiling are the rule of the day it seems.

[hexola]

10. What if, What if...who cares about "what if...!

What if they tested all white people in NY - oooooo that would be soooo wrong...?

[auburnblu]

19. They were not all there

http://www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2006/03/29/News/Police.Release.911.Tapes.Players.Deny.Sex.Of.Any.Kind.With.Dancer.At.Party-1763517-page2.shtml?norewrite200604102340&sourcedomain=www.dukechronicle.com

Yes that is wrong, ever hear of the Constitution? I suppose not.

[freeplessinseattle]

58. so how do the cops know for sure who was at the party

and who wasn't? it wouold be so easy for some to say they weren't there when in fact they were. it's not racist to be thorough and cautious, it's called "ruling out suspects".

[alcibiades_mystery]

5. how hard is it to read the forum warnings?

Is this LBN? No. Jesus.

[Redstone]

6. Racism and sensationalism, anyone?

And it's not "late-breaking news."

So what was your point, exactly?

Redstone

[auburnblu]

9. Whoops. My point is potential profiling

ALL, that is troubling. Testing anyone and all simply because they are of the same demographic group when they were not even there is pretty damn troubling.

And moderators please move.

[hexola]

11. Figure out if they were all there FIRST - then post...! (nt)

[auburnblu]

18. Three WERE NOT even there

http://www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2006/03/29/News/Police.Release.911.Tapes.Players.Deny.Sex.Of.Any.Kind.With.Dancer.At.Party-1763517-page2.shtml?norewrite200604102340&sourcedomain=www.dukechronicle.com

I thought I had read this before. DNA tested when you are not even at the scene of the incident simply because of your race and who has a problem with this besides me? Damn this is troubling. I don't care if they were white, black, Asian or whatever, this is just damn troubling.

[hexola]

22. They were uncooperative...

"...the large sample was necessary because members of the lacrosse team provided little information to investigators..."

Plus - they went to great lengths to conceal their identity at the party - calling each other by number, saying they were from the baseball team...

Just saying they werent there doesnt cut it...even with some form of alibi...

[auburnblu]

27. Depends on the alibi

Honestly,

Let's say same gal was attacked at a party held by the Duke football team and in this case it was jut one attacker and he was black. Let's say the team had most players there, most not all. The team is more balanced race wise, but there are probably 46 black players on the team. Are you honestly suggesting that all black players on the team should be dna tested if they could prove they were not there. I have never heard such nonsense. Talk about being guilty until proven innocent. Does all this guilty until proven innocence support of thesting someone not even at the incident really make anyone on here seem more enlightened. I thought W hated the Constitution, I think W would applaud with the willingness to trash Constitutional rights being supported in this thread.

[Neil Lisst]

34. your point is that innocent men have to give DNA samples

But that happens all the time.

It appears that these guys volunteered to have their DNA tested. Could the prosecutor have required them to give DNA evidence? Sure, if he gets an order from the judge requiring it.

In your example, the black guys would have to give DNA samples, fair or not. Would a court order that all black guys at a university submit DNA? Probably not, probably too broad. But players at a party? That is a reasonably definable universe.

DNA will probably help these guys.

[auburnblu]

36. But Players NOT repeat NOT at the party

I have no problems with the white players at the party having to give a DNA sample. But there were three who were not there. And I have a big problem with them having to give a sample. Its the ALL I have a problem with, and three not there were still ordered to be tested.

[hexola]

38. You need to be sure that the samples were not voluntary...

Before you go any further with this argument...do a fact check.

They came right out of the shoot claiming DNA would clear them - its a team - so just so there would be no question...why let questions linger...?

There is no "I" in team...

[auburnblu]

42. Damn, it was an order

Why don't you do a fact check? I'm saying I don't give a damn what the team decided or agreed to. Three players who were NOT present should not have been ordered to take a dna test in the first place.

[auburnblu]

45. Before you post again, read the Constitution

You've questioned me twice in this thread. I have my facts straight. Where they all there? Nope. Was it an ordered test. Yep. Little something called the 4th Amendment. And let's think about what that says. The right of the people to be secure in their persons against unreaonable searches and seizures. Please read the Constitution before further posts in this thread. I have.


http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.norulak.com/fourthamendment.htm&h=777&w=912&sz=13&tbnid=U8ZOB4-fUpbDyM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=146&hl=en&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2B%25224th%2Bamendment%2522%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DX

[hexola]

50. Dude - drop the sanctimony...

You may have a valid point...

Its not the way I see it - but the 'tude aint helping you...

Its not as if I support racial profiling...this is peculiar situation...

There are other legal factors in play...

[auburnblu]

54. You had a tude too

The "check your facts before posting", please talk about attitude and being high and mighty. You were calling me wrong and guess what, nope. Not once, but twice. Get over yourself. There are a lot of unique situations, but amazing as it is, I prefer for the Constitution to be respected. Just because a situation is unique doesn't mean the Constitution should not be followed.

And what other legal factors are in play that would preclude the Durham PD think about the Constitution? A lot of your posts in this thread seems to support racial profiling and ignoring the Constitution and that's why I keep challenging you.

[Neil Lisst]

41. Were they ordered? By whom? I suspect they did so voluntarily.

Just because they gave DNA samples doesn't mean they were ordered by the court to do so. I'm sure they were told the school expected them to do so, however.

[auburnblu]

43. Ordered by the police authorized by the Court

http://media.www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2006/03/24/News/Dpd-DnaTests.Lacrosse.Team.In.Suspected.Rape-1716621.shtml?sourcedomain=www.dukechronicle.com&MIIHost=media.collegepublisher.com

Geez. This is making me tired. Police have to want it to happen and request that the Court authorize it.

[Neil Lisst]

44. dupe

[Neil Lisst]

47. that order had to come from the court

The police can't make the players show up and give DNA, but the court with jurisdiction of the case can, and appears to have done so here.

However, it is a motion to which the players could have agreed immediately. They may have. The school would probably order them to do so, not being as restrained as the police by the constitution. They can threaten kicking you off the team.

There is an order mentioned in the article, and the police/state would have applied for the order shortly after the incident, and to which the players may have agreed.

[hexola]

49. Order...this is the sort of semantic failing common in the media today...

I'd like to know...is an "order" the same as a warrant...?

They (the media) use a word that "does the job" but may not be specific enough for this sort of analysis...

[Neil Lisst]

52. Yes!!!

that's it

It's a search warrant, except it compels someone to present and give DNA, or whatever. You can be ordered to give blood, DNA, fingerprints, hair, writing samples, even your voice saying certain words.

[hexola]

48. Sorry pal...not buying it...

I dont really trust the media to report this stuff very accurately...(and Im too tired to compare all the accounts...)

Were all 46 issued a search warrant for their DNA...?

or - Were they asked to voluntarily to give a sample...?

Big difference...BUT the media might still report using the word "ordered"

The media -I know- would easily overlook/miss this detail...I've seen the word "ordered" - used...but I "order" a burger and fries everday...

You make it sound like they were all arrested, and processed like criminals to get the sample...

I dont have the answers, nor do you... - I want to know also - but you have made no case for profiling - IMO...

Not an obvious slam dunk for profiling - and certainly no cause to indict DU...

[Neil Lisst]

53. it appears they did have an order, a warrant, from the court

it would have directed the players to give DNA samples at a certain time and place. If any of the players had wanted to resist the order, he could have resisted giving a sample by filing a motion to require a showing of probable cause for the taking of his DNA.

That didn't happen. Did the players decide to give DNA because the school wanted them to? Expected them to? Told them to? Whatever, they were smart to do so if they knew it would show they were clean on that count.

[auburnblu]

55. Do you have to question every post?

The police wanted the order and the Court agreed. Am I going to believe the media or you? Maybe neither. But you're constant postings that every one and every report is wrong unless you agree with it is just crazy.

[hexola]

56. See Ya fellas!!!

[MrMonk]

31. Your article says that the samples were collected on the 23rd

The article is dated the 29th. Did the police know that three of the players weren't there before the samples were ordered?

[hexola]

33. Im not sure we really know all the samples were ordered...?

The article seems to imply that - but isnt really clear...

[auburnblu]

35. They should have asked/researched

Or had a provision which allowed exclusion if proof existed that a team member was not there. Ordering a blanket testing. Damn. If I was one of the three guys. I would sue. Forget the Constitution, this is DU, a place that suddenly I bet W would love.

[MrMonk]

14. ALL white men on the lacrosse team were tested because

the investigators know that the men at the lacrosse players' house represented that they were on the lacrosse team; and the investigators do not know which members of the lacrosse team were at the house (only that a large number of them were), and the lacrosse team members ain't talking. Ordering all of the white members to be tested is not racial profiling because the order is not open-ended, it is explicitly limited to the lacrosse team.

[hexola]

15. This is more sinister...Sports Profiling!!!

Danger...!!!

[auburnblu]

21. Yes it is

Were they asked to provide proof they were not there first? They were tested based on being a member of the team and on race. That is profiling. Just because they are white, doesn't excuse it. Geez.

[benddem]

16. there is only one black guy on the team

or was. She testified that the guys who raped her were white. This isn't profiling it is following the evidence.

[auburnblu]

24. So test those who were THERE

Three were not, they should sue the Durham PD for something. What a joke our legal system is. And even if someone is guilty of rape, worry that justice won't be done. As Robert Blake, OJ and Ted Kennedy have shown, if you're rich in this country you can literally kill someone and get away with it. I'm sure someone will now rush to their defenses.

[hexola]

26. What if...someone had an alibi - but they found their DNA on her?

You like hypotheticals....

Can you imagine - a fake alibi?

You seem to imply that just because someone has a seemingly air-tight alibi, they can be exonerated...

I would want the DNA test - even if I wasnt there...just to bolster my claims...

[auburnblu]

29. What if someone was out of town?

Or at the hopsital or who knows what. And you did not answer my question? With the football team example. Want you in writing to say you want the black players not present tested even if they could prove they were not there. I wouldn't want them tested. But want your response. So should a black player in a similar situation be tested, I say no, what do you say?

I have a feeling you will not answer my question, prove me wrong.

[hexola]

37. If all she had as ID was "a black guy on the football team"...

...then yeah - test them all...and think - who is doing the profiling...the victim or the accusers...? "A black guy on the football team" is fairly small net - IMO...

And - really - I dont know the legal details when it comes to alibis...
You seem to postulate that an alibi trumps everything...does it? I dont know...

Can they refuse if they have an alibi..? Or is that not evidence enough...

Your whole argument is based on the assumption that all the samples were involuntary...

They are a team - and may have decided that everyone should get a test...

[auburnblu]

40. So test black guys for crimes not at scene of incident?

You said it, not me. Geez. Profiling is alive and well on DU. You act as if no alibi is believable. None. There was an order for all to get tested it appears. Maybe there was a team vote not to challenge the order. But a little due dilligence to decide who to order tested in the first place would be nice. And I don't know all the legal details of the case either and no matter the truth I feel sorry for the young lady at best she found herself in a bad situation she didn't expect and at worst she was horribly attacked. But I wouldn't mind if a little thing called the Constitution was remembered.

[MadMaddie]

25. Welcome to Black America.......

This happens every day in America....the Central Park Jogger incident the black teenagers were crucified by the media and the public and found guilty....ooops and guess what.. .they were innocent....the guy that committed the crime...committed a couple of more rapes and then was convicted....he is the one that came forward and admitted he did the crime....he was hispanic....

Something did happen at the Frat house...was it rape? was it a Twanna Brawley type incident...?

Anyway you look at it...it's a bad situation.....

[auburnblu]

28. Good example

Those kids, kids in age at the time anyway, were put in jail for how long, in reality imply due to their race. Now I'll admit it made sense not to test the black guy even if he was at the party, because the victim said her attackers were white. But to test players not even there. Damn.

I agree, bad situation. Seems like a team out of control.

[hexola]

51. Is the problem "racist profiling" or "racial profiling"?

They would seem to be different concepts...

I see your point about the guys who werent there...not really ready to agree.

[KitchenWitch]

30. No DNA does not mean no rape.

[Neil Lisst]

59. the affidavit for the search warrant said she was raped ...

vaginally, anally, and orally, as well as choked and beaten, for 30 minutes by three players.

A reading of it makes it difficult to imagine no DNA by players on her.

Read the search warrant and see what you think.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=900439&mesg_id=901380

The warrant was issued by Tammy Drew, one of several magistrates in that jurisdiction. A magistrate is sort of an assistant judge who can handle official business of the court, like issue search warrants, particularly at night, when judges are not available. They do their work essentially under the auspices of a court system, where they handle a ton of the day to day functions of courts running.

[sproutster]

32. Okies, well why DNA test all of them ... No DNA was found to match

But the pros is going forward... Against WHO? Did they lie to get the DNA? Seriously, wtf?

[LisaL]

39. Hello? That is not true. They did find DNA belonging to two men

in the bathroom. Just not on the woman. But they did match the DNA to two men.

[sproutster]

60. But it's the bathroom

[LisaL]

61. Yea, so? She alleged the rape took place in the bathroom.

[jberryhill]

62. You do understand....

...that matching the DNA of two men to DNA found in their own bathroom is something of an unsurprising result, yes?

If one looked, you'd probably find their fingerprints all over that bathroom too, but what you'd be seeking to prove there is a head-scratcher.

[cynatnite]

46. Ejaculation is not required when raping someone n/t

[Neil Lisst]

57. Here is the actual search warrant issued.

I haven't checked it yet to see if it addresses the DNA testing, which might have required a separate motion.

here is the search warrant issued by the magistrate in the case:

[Catherine Vincent]

64. I know one thing, if I was on that team and wasn't at the party...

there is no way in hell I would agree to DNA testing. They should have tested only the ones that were at the party.

[U4ikLefty]

65. Since you are all about truth...why not enable your profile??? n/t