We Are a Nation of LAWS. People Should Not Be Here ILLEGALLY. -->

[Dr. Jones]

Prove me wrong.

Our nation, the United States of America, is a nation of law and order. The very fact that greedy, anti-American companies along with a corrupt Administration have allowed illegal immigrants to work as slave laborers in this country is a travesty!

Allowing illegals to run free in our country and put them on the fast track to amnesty is a slap in the face to every immigrant who has LEGALLY entered our country for a better life. It's an insult! Why put the criminals in front of the line? It just doesn't make SENSE!! Plus, illegal immigration is indeed a grave threat to our national security. Do you realize how many thousands of terrorists have crossed our pourous southern borders because of lax enforcement? Some have even been caught in sensitive jobs such as driving HAZMAT trucks!

I don't think it would be out of the question to consider deportation of illegal immigrants in our country, they are here against our laws and it's simply not fair to Americans nor to those that came into our country the proper LEGAL way. Not to mention the fact that they've taken a terrible toll on our social services and healthcare system.

Having said that, I do not support the Republican's draconian Immigration plan which states that we should simply ignore illegals and not help them in their times of need....but something has to be done, that's for sure, and deportation should be on the table as a viable option.

I personally believe people should be consistent though. Either you care about our laws or you don't. You can't have it both ways.

[LisaM]

1. Jail the people who hire them, then

quick obvious solution.

[BrklynLiberal]

3. and while we are at it, raise the minimum wage for EVERYONE to #$12.00

[VOX]

29. Now you're talking! n/t

[Eurobabe]

91. Exactly, why don't Americans WANT to do 'those' jobs?

because they (corps/big biz) pay shit.

[shance]

31. Absolutely. Jail those that hire them because they do the work that

most Americans wont. Don't blame those that need a job.

Blame the real offenders who make shameless profits and perks off the people that need it the most.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

39. CORRECTION:

They do jobs Americans won't do *for next to nothing*. Let's be honest here and finish our sentences with the truth!
Duckie

[sendero]

44. Nothing cracks me up more..

.... than to listen to someone decry "outsourcing" and then try to defend this. Just because the people are coming here instead of us shipping the work there - it is no different.

Nobody wants to compete with third world wages. Nobody honest that is.

[shance]

63. Do you think we are any less expendable to this Administration

than those who work here illegally?

If you think we are any more "valuable" to those in this Administration then you are fooling yourself.

I wouldn't be so quick to align yourself with those who are seeking to make you their slave. If you think those desperate for work are your enemy then my friend you are the fool.

[sendero]

88. Why do you think I'm aligning..

.. myself with this administration? Either enforce the law or make the guest workers legal. The limbo we have now, where if you want to compete in certain businesses you have to break the law is untenable.

If you think Americans can fairly compete with folks willing to work for slave wages you are a fool.

[tavalon]

105. Then

as it's already been said, go after the corporate criminals. Force them to pay a living wage or face criminal charges. Simple. Then, give amnesty to the workers already here and then create a workable immigration policy.

[rocktivity]

53. Enough Americans would do the jobs of illegals if they paid enough

And the fact that Bush's immigration reform does not include punishment for businesses who hire illegals proves what a crock it is. The Dems should tell Bush that if he wants his guest worker program, he'll have agree to raise the minimum wage AND to make it illegal for even guest workers to earn less.

:headbang:
rocknation

[shance]

61. You know that "guest workers" is just a way to screw those some more.

That's all it is.

The people that are getting hurt are those who can't afford to live, while the Administration takes our money and builds more weaponry with which to control us.

Remember those borders can be used to keep us in here, as much as keeping THEM out. With this Administration, it works both ways. To this Administration, we as American citizens are just as expendable as the "illegal" residents. Or atleast that is what many of them are trying to accomplish.

[ComerPerro]

90. They do work that anyone would do, but they do it for less

Its not that most Americans won't do the work. Its that no one can live on the salary that is paid for that work. But illegals need the money, and employers know it. So they exploit them.


Although, getting rid of illegals wouldn't solve that problem. Those jobs would still pay poorly, because there is always someone who will do the work.

[Drum]

37. I heartily agree

with both you LisaM and the OP.

I know lots of people who have legally emigrated here to the USofA...some became citizens, some are legal Resident Aliens (the "green card.) None of them did it through either marriage or birth, but arrived here visa'd and went through the long and arduous processes of legal immigration. There's much record-keeping, and lawyers, and waiting in the process, but they've stuck it out and here they are...they're good people, and I respect their perseverance and desire to live in and become part of the US civic structure.

It is from knowing these foreign-born friends that my most visceral reaction arises to the current shouting matches over US immigration "reform." I get a pang on vicarious behalf of the many many folks who try to go legally through the procedures involved. I can only imagine how such a lax policy of enforcement NOW can actually appear---in the eyes of legal immigrants and applicants---to be "reform."

But what do I know? I was born here in the USA, and my experiences of traveling cannot give me an idea of how large the issue of immigration is to someone personally. Personally, I'm surprised that this "problem" and proposed "reforms" have whipped into a tense cyclone so quickly in the papers/newscasts/debates. Of course the issue has had some periodic ongoing coverage, but now it's so loud so fast! I am suspicious: of the Great Divider In Chief's hamhanded "agenda" and doubly so of the fact that such important reforms must be rushed and rammed into law.

Tell me again: Besides politicians and greedy barons, who else is this hasty overhaul supposed to benefit?

[genieroze]

123. BINGO!

[CanonRay]

131. OK by me!

[leesa]

147. Stop it LisaM, you know we Dems have no solutions!

This would stop this problem in a flash...but greedy Republicans, and others, don't want that profit margin disturbed.

[JeffR]

2. ..

:popcorn:

[Kerrytravelers]

8. Pass me a bag.

:popcorn: :popcorn:

[JeffR]

12. Here ya go

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[Kerrytravelers]

16. This could get real intersting before it gets locked.

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Let me know if you need a bag...

[JeffR]

18. Thanks

Drink?

:beer:

[Lost-in-FL]

30. Forget the popcorn...

Here's the six pack :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

[Kerrytravelers]

35. I'm certainly a 6 pack kind of girl!

:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

Here's a 6 pack for you! :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:


Bottom's up! :toast:

[JeffR]

36. That's the ticket

Prosit!

:toast:

[NanceGreggs]

40. Can I join the party?

I came early ... within the next fifteen minutes, it will be too crowded to get to the snack table ...

:party: :popcorn: :toast:

[JeffR]

42. Can we smoke in here?

:smoke:

[NanceGreggs]

45. What the hell?

With all of the flaming that's about to start, who's going to notice?

:smoke:

[Kerrytravelers]

48. Smoke 'em if you got 'em!

[bliss_eternal]

56. Anyone got a bong...?

:spray: just thought I'd ask... :blush:

[NanceGreggs]

82. I'm always happy to share my avatar.

No bong, though ... anyone got some Zig-Zags?

[Kerrytravelers]

46. There's always room at the bar!

P-A-R-T-Y!!!!

[Tanuki]

4. If we were a nation of laws,

we wouldn't torture and illegally detain people or go around starting unprovoked wars to grab other people's oil. Can we start by deporting the president?

[dogday]

5. For the 100th time today, these posts are getting really old...

we have had so many of these post, just the same as yours therfore I am driving by

[gizmo1979]

28. That's a cool tag.

[ecstatic]

6. I suspect that if most illegals were Other than Mexicans

Meaning, from Africa/The Middle East/ Carribean/ Haiti, etc... that this debate would be a lot different. Point is, people from those countries want to get in too, and they don't have the luxury of just walking into this country. They have to go through certain procedures. We should enforce the laws so that the process of immigration is fair and not biased towards one group.

[sharp_stick]

25. It's got to be those damned Canadians again n/t

[sybylla]

32. Agreed

I worked with an immigrant family from a European country and there were numerous hoops they had to jump through and quite often there was a large price tag associated with each hoop.

There should be equality, whether there are no hoops or a million. Everyone not seeking assylum should face the same obstacle course to permanent residency and citizenship.

[benburch]

7. That is why we need totally open borders.

Anybody who wants to be an American should only have to come here. Period. No problems with illegal immigrants being paid substandard wages because of their illegal status; ALL people here would be legal.

[Lost-in-FL]

38. Someone is smoking something

:smoke: :smoke:

[benburch]

57. I wish I were.

You know, before about 1900 there were NO passports or official ID cards of any sort. If you were here, you were a resident.

[tkmorris]

60. And wages would be in the toilet

Due to there being a huge number of workers chasing the same limited employment opportunities.

[benburch]

62. What makes you think the employment would be limited?

People treat this as a zero sum game. It is not. And the federal and state minimum wage laws would still apply to everybody.

[Katherine Brengle]

77. This would be cool if it worked for leaving as well--

Like, if I could just walk across the border to Canada...

[magellan]

84. Pretty dream

Which would result in unsustainable population growth in the US if we were the only ones in the world to do it.

[benburch]

93. I don't think so.

We could make all sorts of things, conditional on mutually open borders such that most of the rest of the world would have to comply.

[magellan]

101. Ain't gonna happen

Even if the US initiated this plan, other nations that are geographically located near economically depressed countries would only envision the resulting deluge and refuse to sign on. The only way open borders worldwide could be put in place would be by massive funding of entry/settling countries to offset the resulting economic blow, or by a genuine effort to synchronize all economies so that mass exoduses of poor to rich wouldn't happen.

I believe an open borders policy would also require countries to give up what most perceive to be a symbol of their sovereignty. Antiquated as you and I may believe lines drawn on maps to be, the majority of the world does not share that view. That's why most countries have immigration laws.

The human race has a very long way to go before it's mature enough to accept open borders as fair and practical.

[Atman]

9. I'm still baffled that there is even a discussion here

"ILLEGAL" aliens.

Which of those two words don't we understand? If they're here illegally, then they are CRIMINALS, they have broken the law. If you have broken the law, you are not eligible to be here.

Period.

How can anyone argue that making the illegal legal is any different than Bush's "signing statements" declaring that he'll ignore the law he's just signed? How can any DUer rationalize this fact?

[LisaM]

15. And their employers are criminals

so either jail them or better yet, deport them.

[BlackHeart]

94. How do you hire an illegal alien?

Do you pay them under the table with cash? How can large companies do that?

[bahrbearian]

99. They use Sub-Contractors,

[Toots]

22. retroactively

Change the laws retroactively just like Congress is doing for Bush* and his illegal wiretapping. Isn't that how laws are supposed to be dealt with? :shrug:

[The Wielding Truth]

113. This is the most sensible post I've read. I don't really understand

this issue.
Do we want to follow the law or has there been an unjust law passed or Have we failed to enforce a good law for too long? I'm lost in this issue.

[magellan]

10. Thank you.

Emotions run high on this matter. It's nice to hear another voice of reason.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. Eeek! Eeek! The Bogeyman with the sombrero is gonna getcha!

[Celeborn Skywalker]

100. Why don't you ever argue a point

instead of resorting to a racebaiting one liner. It is possible for civil people to disagree on this matter without resulting to accusations of racism. See Skinner's excellent post on the subject.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

112. Sorry. When I see racism I call it what it is.

However, "reasonably" presented.

[IsItJustMe]

13. There is no fairness to this what-so-ever. I agree. It will only promote

more of the same. It's history repeating itself.

Reagan had the amnesty, and what did you get. 12-20 million more illegal immigrants. This move, in my view, will promote another 20 million in 5 to 10 years. The system is completely broke and dysfunctional, and this will only add to it by an order of magnitute.

You can believe me now or believe me later, but I know you are going to believe me.

[SteppingRazor]

14. I'm keeping out of the immigration debate, but I'd like to point out...

that you can be a caring, decent American and utterly disagree with the law. And, conversely, the law is not always right.

Slavery was the law. Was it right?

Male-suffrage-only was the law. Was it right?

Sweeet Jesus, prohibition was the law! Was that right?!! (don't you love my priorities?)

Anyway, my point is, maybe our immigration laws are not right. And if that's the case, shouldn't we, as our spiritual ancestors in the abolitionist, women's suffrage and civil rights movements before us, work to change these laws, even to the point of disobedience? Blind obedience to law and order never did anyone any good, except for the tyrants at the top.

My point is simply to point out that the law is not always right. My own stance on immigration, I think I'll keep to myself :hi:

[intheflow]

92. Thanks you for calling us back

to our best ideals of justice. :hi:

[Iowa]

118. Great post...

Laws can be (and are) purchased by the plutocracy, so I'm very slow to kneel at the altar of the legal system as it exists in the US today. What's legal and what's right, decent, fair, and moral are often very different things. Furthermore, as I see it our existing legal system serves three primary purposes: 1) to arbitrate the disputes of the rich and famous, 2) to serve corporate interests (i.e. Bush v. Gore), and 3) to keep the little people in line.

So I don't get too charged up over "illegalities". I tend to be more concerned about evil intent and damage done. By that standard the everyday "legal" activities of many politicians and corp. executives are far more grievous crimes than those perpetrated by drug users and petty thieves. The rule of law as it exists in this country today is a very weak peg upon which to hang one's hat.

[EFerrari]

17. Prove this is a nation of laws and not law breaking.

:shrug:

Prove that illegal immigration isn't a fine old "American" tradition.

:shrug:

Prove that illegal invasions aren't the American way.

:shrug:

This line of reasoning isn't really useful.

And, by the way, the 9/11 hijackers used the northern border, not the southern border. :)

[the other one]

19. You are WRONG! We are a nation of JUSTICE!

Laws are always being used to commit crimes. I see know order to that.

We are a nation of people who prize JUSTICE, and that is something that comes from the hearts and minds of our citizens, not from the words written on pieces of paper.

[kurth]

34. Justice is not served when you're abetting cheap foreign labor

to undermine your own citizens.

[xchrom]

47. labour -- skilled labour -- from skandinavia and europe

make 20% more than ''native'' born americans.

they do as much to keep ''native'' born americans from moving up the skilled labour market as anything else does.

[EFerrari]

72. Then the logical solution is to support labor, not to attack

workers.

[malaise]

20. The problem is that citizens of

other countries see your government violating their laws with impunity.

[Kenergy]

21. We WERE a nation of laws (past tense) when we were a

democracy; the Fuhrer demonstrates on a daily basis that laws are arbitrary,
the Constitution is "just a piece of paper". Voting machines with no paper trail.
Congressional reps that represent corporations, not their constituents.
We are no longer a democracy.

I agree with what you posted, but that's pre-911 thinking.

[Minnesota Libra]

23. There is a problem with your take on the issue, the law is..............

.....for everyone to follow until it becomes inconvenient to follow the law any longer.

When people are reminded of the issue of our laws then of course it is just convenient to claim someone else or something else is responsible, or at the very least more responsible than they are. They simply refuse to address the issue of illegal aliens breaking our laws.

The illegal alien issue is probably the ONLY issue I break ranks with Democrats/Liberals on.

[John Q. Citizen]

24. But first let's return CA, AZ, TX, NM, cause we stole it and thats illegal

[ChazII]

107. Do the DUers in those

states have anything to say?:evilgrin:

[John Q. Citizen]

120. The undocumented DUers or the documented DUers?

I'm not sure either way, but I assume the documented and undocumanted DUers who agree with the OP would be happy to return stolen land and both classes of DUers in those states who don't agree with the OP wouldn't.

But that's just an assumption.

[CrazyForKucinich]

126. Original Poster OWNED!

Nice post.

[TX-RAT]

140. This stupid comment comes up about once a day.

Is this your idea of keeping our party together?

[John Q. Citizen]

148. Stupid is as stupid does, good sir!

[sojourner]

26. Well then, I say we start at the top of our gov'mint. Once THEY

prove to me that we ARE a nation of laws -- or when WE the people take the notion seriously and apply that to the highest among us, then I'll think about your point.

[endarkenment]

27. Ok, so lets just legalize them.

Then, as the problem is that 'they' are 'illegal', the problem will be solved.

Right?

[foreverdem]

130. But what about...

all the people waiting to become citizens legally? Is that fair to them?

[Bridget Burke]

134. Then change those laws.

The whole immigration system needs an overhaul.

[porphyrian]

33. Laws are neither created nor enforced equally.

Murdering a family and driving five miles over the speed limit are both examples of breaking the law, but people don't want to invalidate the rights of most drivers just because they break the speed limit law. Instead of blaming the immigrants for sneaking in to be exploited, why don't we blame the people who illegally hire and create the demand for more of them?

[bliss_eternal]

41. First, someone prove this isn't another "post & run"

flame attempt, and it might actually warrant interest and discussion.

Several here have taken the bait, which I totally understand, given the passion of this issue. But has anyone noticed that the original poster hasn't bothered to respond to any of it?

Things that make you go, "...hmmmmmmm." :eyes:

[JeffR]

43. Join us back at response #2

At least this thread has served as an excuse for a party.

[Kerrytravelers]

51. We got drinks, smokes and dancing! Hell, maybe even some karoke!

:toast:

[bliss_eternal]

55. Oooh, right o!.

See ya' there--LOL! :hi:

[im10ashus]

75. LMAO!

Hell, let's make the whole thread a party. Anytime they post and run, we should have a drink. :beer:

And a smoke. :smoke:

And a laugh. :rofl:

:-)

[JeffR]

79. Cheers!

:party: :party: :party: :party: :party:

[xchrom]

49. poster has 408 posts -- hmmmm?

[bliss_eternal]

54. ....

:hi:

[xchrom]

67. hi bliss!

:toast:

[bliss_eternal]

69. Hey YOU!

Funny how we all get sucked into these things, isn't it?

:pals::toast:

[xchrom]

78. funny?

or :silly:

:pals:

[bliss_eternal]

83. Totally...!

:rofl: :spray:

:hug:

[endarkenment]

50. Actually it was his second post on this topic today.

And for the second time he introduced the terra terra non-issue of the 'aliens with hazmat licenses' story the media floated today.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=773339&mesg_id=773339

lets all play karl's new game: "its the mexicans, stupid".

[xchrom]

85. dim logic and mass hysterectomies!

:rofl:

[im10ashus]

52. "Our nation, the United States of America, is a nation of law and order."

:rofl:

You almost had me there! :rofl:

[EFerrari]

59. You again. I keep seeing you on these threads.

"law and order"

:rofl:


Yeah, "law and order"

:rofl:

[im10ashus]

66. I know.

I can't help myself. Law & Order is just a show on NBC. The term "law and order" somehow fails to accurately reflect the present State of our Union and the criminals in charge. :hi:

[EFerrari]

68. Nixon made "law and order" code for segregation.

It's astonishing to me that DUers can use it unself-consciously.

But, that's dating me. :)

[im10ashus]

73. Nah. Not dating you at all.

It shows you are aware. :-)

[SPKrazy]

58. Splain sumthin' to me then

Why do these "illegals" have to be illegal?

If they are really doing "jobs no one else will do", then give them work visas

[VelmaD]

64. Ask yourself this one question...

are you absolutely sure ALL of your forebears came to this country legally?

[CAcyclist]

65. So if we're a nation of laws, why does everyone break the speed limit

when they drive? And why do so many people break the drinking limit when they drive? If everyone obeyed the laws, 40,000 people a year wouldn't be dying on our roads. I think that the Vehicle Code is a much more important and pertinent set of laws than immigration laws.

[Garbo 2004]

70. "thousands of terrorists" have come into the country? Tell us then how

many "thousands of terrorists" have entered the country through our southern borders, since you appear to be citing that as a "fact" that others should realize.

(And you really think the vast northern border is impermeable?)

So has the US stopped detaining and deporting illegals? One would think so from your post.

Curious all those "thousands of terrorists" flooding into the country and yet the FBI is busy watching Quakers and vegans. Perhaps they think the "thousands of terrorists" will show up for a peace rally?

[EFerrari]

71. Don't forget peace grannys and girl scouts.

You're wrong, Garbo2004. We should be very concerned about those al Qaida nannys and gardeners who cross the border daily. :sarcasm:

[Garbo 2004]

81. Yeah: nanny by day, hazmat trucker/terraist by night n/t

[savemefromdumbya]

74. Just give out work permits at borders and ports.

Work permits should be freely available and legal as long as they can take care of their own healthcare (except for emergencies) when they are here? Need to ID people crossing borders and coasts for security reasons.

[endarkenment]

132. They really won't address this point.

Legalize it and suddenly the whole 'but they are illegal' canard just melts away. What we are left with is 'but they are not the same as us'.

Karl's new game: 'it's the mexicans, stupid'.

[Cleita]

76. I'll agree with you only when the other lawbreakers like

BushCo are brought to justice. Otherwise a nation of laws is empty rhetoric when the laws only apply to an underclass and not the upperclass.

[Rex]

80. Hear hear! We are a nation of LAWS!

Unfortunately the people who run our government seem to think they don't need to follow the Laws of the Land. This sends out a bad signal to other people in other countries - hey that place don't even follow it's own laws! Why should illegals care when they see the very core of our government constantly break not only their own laws, but international ones as well. Not making an excuse for illegals, they should not be here unless on a work visa IMO.

It is a 'lead by example' kinda thing and in no way did GWB start it, but he sure is the shinning beacon of it!

[walldude]

86. Becoming a citizen is not easy....

Has anyone here ever had to take the citizenship test? Anyone care to enlighten people how long it takes to get through the red tape and paperwork you need to become a citizen of the U.S.? It takes years and years and cost money. We need an simpler immigration policy. I agree with benburch, anyone who seeks freedom and a better life for themselves should be allowed to enter the U.S. I just think they should be documented. They should be given a temporary work visa good until their citizenship is either granted or denied. Then we need to take a good look at how we can streamline the citizenship process. People act like illegals want to be illegal. They don't. If it were within their grasp to legally become a citizen they would jump on it. Let's put it within their grasp. Starting with the ones already here. I for one do not want the government to spend the money it would take to deport all these people.



Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door

[kurth]

110. I know plenty of people who are naturalized citizens

Their experience:

1. Stick around for 5 years as a permanent resident. Enjoy all the benefits of being in America as far as employment, education, driving, getting robbed etc. You can't vote, but you can't get drafted either.
2. Get a photo taken, and get a fingerprint card made by the local police.
3. Fill out an application form.
4. Send application, photo, fingerprint card, and a check for a couple hundred bucks to the INS.
5. Wait, oh, maybe 6 to 8 months, for an interview.
6. Go to the interview with the immigration "examiner". Typical questions: "Who was the first president?", "How many senators are there in the U.S. Senate?", "How many stars are there in the American flag?". All these questions can be found in a little booklet, available in every tongue spoken in America.
7. Go to the citizenship "hearing" at the federal courthouse to take the oath and shake hands with the judge.

Not hard at all.

[Cronus Protagonist]

124. Green card holders can't vote, true, but you can get drafted

A small quibble. Another, more substantial one is that when denied, the result is devastating, often splitting families with American born children. And worrying about getting caught for years, then wondering if the INS is going to kick your ass in the end after you do finally get to apply... All I wanted to note is that it's not quite as easy as you think.

[Bridget Burke]

135. You left out the Immigration Lawyers...

Quite expensive, but generally needed to gain citizenship.

[Gregorian]

87. Perhaps it's a law that runs counter to progressive ideals.

First I'd like to say that we all break the law. Every time you drive faster than the flow of traffic, while going over the speed limit, you're breaking the law. Maybe you're on your way to the hospital. Or whatever. Maybe the law is bad. I was nailed over and over in a place that was later found to be an illegal speed trap.

And then there is the abortion law. How fair is it to force a woman to have a child she doesn't want. Or maybe even a child who themself would not want to live. Like a crack baby. Or a seriously retarded baby. I can imagine that even one of them might live a beautiful life. But that's not the point.

And then there is "illegal" immigration. There were people already living in this country. They had no laws. And inretrospect, I would bet anything that they wish they had had laws. Because that group that came over and squatted on their land, destroyed them. I think the threat of illegal immigrants is artificially overblown. And here's just one reason why I think that. Because the world population is a highly significant concern that outweighs the location of individuals. We are in a world of global phenomenon now, not local. It's "us", not "me". No matter what we do about immigration, we cnannot change that fact.

We need to think on bigger scales now. I have a hard time with that, especially when I see the world's biggest embassy being built in Beijing. There are a billion Chinese just waiting to flood this country. Or it may just seem that way. However, I'm not anxious to see our population double in this country. But, we are past that era now. We are all in this together now. We're going to have to learn how to share. I don't know how else to say it.

[Deja Q]

89. Hmmm

I agree! We cannot have illegal aliens, not all of which are benign.

And to loosen the laws on immigration is no different than loosening the laws on illegal drugs known to ruin peoples' lives.

[Clarkie1]

95. Please explain the logistics of identifying and deporting 11 million

people.

[hedgehog]

96. I think my grandma was an illegal, but can I stay?

Actually, we're not quite sure what her status was, but instead of landing at New York, she landed in Canada, took the train to Niagara Falls, crossed the US border there, and then took the train to Youngstown. This was back around 1920 or so. Sounds pretty shady for an Irish immigrant.

[Notoverit]

97. Right after you prove the "nation of laws" thingy.

Stolen elections, a POTUS who brags about breaking laws and defies us to do do something about it, or exempts himself from laws he's signing (i.e. torture), and Abramoff, Halliburton and Enron write said "laws"...

[SaveElmer]

98. Ahhh...how simplistically Republican...

And only possible if you ignore the humanity of the people involved...

This is not a black and white issue....

These people are victims of a system that perpetuates them in poverty in the countries in which they live. The United States, and particularly American business, is partially culpable for perpetuating that system.

Instead of treating the symptom of the problem, the immigrants, like murderers and hounding them like dogs, how about we try and help solve the root problem? American companies profit off of this system, and at least partially, we are reaping what we have sewn.

[fleabert]

102. did you cut and paste this from Hannity's web site?

you should cite the source!

[K8-EEE]

103. Let's Start With Arretsing The President For Breaking The Law

Or, we can arrest they guy selling oranges on the freeway. But I think it would be better for all concerned if we start the Law Respect thing up top.

[KAZ]

104. Not sure the "good Doctor" would like that. n/t

n/t

[alittlelark]

106. Paging Dr. Jones.... Dr. Jones.... you have messages.

[im10ashus]

121. Dr. Jones. We need you in DU. STAT!

Dr. Jones? Dr. JONES??

[mike_c]

108. my work here is done....

Paging Dr. Jones....

[Triana]

109. Totally agreed (n/t) K & R too..

[GeorgeGist]

111. I'm only 1/16 aboriginal ...

my other 15/16th is here illegally!

[Generator]

114. A nation of laws?

What a fantasy. We are a nation of myth. And this immigration thing is the least of my worries. The zillion other "laws" that those we are supposed to respect most have shat all over in the last five years ruins it for me. Criminals in the front line-indeed-the criminals that RUN this country remain my top concern. DU is losing me..much as the Democrats with another plan to do nothing but change the semantics are.

[izzybeans]

115. Spanish, British, Portuguese colonies, etc.

just sayin'

Border issues are inevitable. However I'm not sure how this current resurgence of exclusionary nationalism will stop the engines of capitalism. Without creating solidarity with those "dirty illegals" the wheels of contradiction continue to spin. We are locked into a common history. Your beef is not with the "illegals". Some of our nation's laws were written to protect the interests of someone other than you; most of those laws govern the economy. We are a nation of laws; but our nation must make laws with an eye for a common humanity, not distinctive and manifest destiny. Progressivism is the movement that most realize those goals; short of that we are no beacon of light on a hill; just another country cowering in fear of the "other".

[Warren DeMontague]

116. Two points: #1--> There's no point in having a minimum wage (which I think

should be a LIVEABLE wage, by the way) if corporations can hire illegals or others for peanuts and expect to get away with nary a slap on the wrist.

In my humble opinion, that's where talk of enforcement and 'cracking down' on immigration ought to, at least, begin.

#2--> you win the prize for the most egregious post-n-run I've seen all month.

[moondust]

117. I tend to agree.

Look around at all the people who immigrated to the U.S. legally, respected the laws, stood in the lines, endured the red tape, learned the culture, did what was reasonably asked of them to become U.S. citizens, and tell me that they were fools for going through all that.

Illegal immigration is a monumental case of disrespect and those who have chosen it as a basis for their existence should not be surprised if they are disrespected in return.

It will be a good sign when those who have built their successes on unlawful immigration activities start going to jail. They provided the motive without which the problem might not exist today. Of course the price of lettuce may go up.

[BeHereNow]

119. Your opening statement invalidates the rest of your argument.

Sorry, but we are NOT a nation of law and order.
We are a "nation" steeped in anything BUT law and
order. Our foreign policies are directly related to
the total economic destruction of several countries.
Destruction that benefits the corporations operating, without
paying taxes back into their economies, and has destroyed the
infrastructure of those countries. (We're next, in case you haven't caught on)

Policies beholden not to the the benefit of "American citizens" or other
citizens victimized by the multi nationals,
but to the corporate empire operating, for now,
out of, and with the abuse of, "America" and our military forces.
The flood of immigrants to this country is a DIRECT result
of "our" foreign policies, which have never been further
from any semblance of the rule of law.
People need to eat.
Get it?
BHN

[WillyT]

122. This Has Been Another Drive-By-Posting... Brought To You By...

The people who make... VIAGRA!

:shrug:

[CrazyForKucinich]

125. Yes. Let's fine all the jaywalkers who break the law...

Your reasoning of following the law to a "T" is ridiculous.

America is the Land of Opportunity. Anyone who wants to come here should come here. The statue of liberty says give us your hungry, tired and poor. It doesn't say we'll think about taking your hungry tired and poor after we make them jump through 20 hoops.

If you're for the rule of law in all scenarios...you might as well be for tearing down the statue of liberty.

[rman]

127. Who's saying people should be here illegally?

What people are saying is that turning illegal immigrants into cheap labor guest workers and building a wall along the border is not the best solution to the problem.

[BlooInBloo]

128. We Are a Nation of LAWS. Black people should not school with white people.

circa 1960

Yes the topic is more-or-less completely different.

Yes, however, the RATIONALE is exactly the same, and equally simplistic.

In particular, the rhetoric says NOTHING about what we should do if the laws are WRONG. The rhetoric gives the impression, in fact, that it's not possible for laws to be wrong, and that laws should be slavishly followed.

"Either you care about our laws or you don't". That is: "fuck you if you think the laws are wrong and unjust. You still have to follow them, or else you're "soft on crime". "

That's bullshit. Laws ARE unjust sometimes. Laws can be CHANGED.

I'm not sure personally if this is the case with immigration, but I am sure that slavishly following laws JUST BECAUSE they're laws is a 3rd grade view of things.

I for one am DAMN glad Rosa Parks didn't see things that way.

[Zynx]

139. Hell we used to have Prohibition and virtually everyone broke that law.

[mdmc]

129. sometimes our laws are wrong

I care about laws... Just laws. everything else is 'just' law.

[mmonk]

133. This issue would be best addressed

after the current government for the following reasons; 1) The current government spreads fear about others and encourages hatred in many subtle ways and 2) It's best to address the issue when clear and humane thought processes are a part of the solution which would not in good judgement be now with fear, and propaganda rampant.

[Bridget Burke]

136. Another drive-by, divisive thread

Yup, we're a "Nation of Laws"--under an illegal president who started an illegal war. And I've always had a problem with "Law & Order." I can understand LAW--but what the hell does the ORDER stand for?

Our immigration system does need revamping--although the changes I'd like might make some of the xenophobes unhappy.

But why the HELL is this suddenly a CRISIS?

[tyedyeto]

137. Is it time to dismantle that wonderful Lady Liberty?

who proudly declares:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."




Many here seem to think these words of wisdom are no longer valid in today's world.

[Zynx]

138. What's YOUR plan for getting rid of 6-11 million people?

Hmmm? And what about the fact that many of them have had children here who are now US citizens?

[mmonk]

141. Detention "centers"?

[Zynx]

143. A fancy term for concentration camps if you ask me.

It's interesting how the numbers almost work out too.

[mmonk]

144. Coincidence?

I doubt it.

[savemefromdumbya]

145. OMG!

I hope not!

[mmonk]

142. I hereby formally request

that this issue be made a seperate area at DU. Too many threads and it makes some of us think uncomfortably that many are falling into a political trap set up by the right.

[cap]

146. don't buy this argument one bit at all...

This argument presupposes that the law can be followed!!!! The immigration system in this country is downright Kafkaesque! If we went through a similar procedure to get our driver's license, everyone would be driving illegally! I wish the media would publicize the inefficiencies in the system!

Typical RW BS... make laws that dont work and then howl about lawbreaking when people try to go about their business.

[Zynx]

149. Exactly. If our immigration system was set up properly, we would never

have such a huge illegal problem.

[TheBaldyMan]

150. If it's a nation of laws, why are a bunch of crooks running it ?

You're right, you can't have it both ways Doc.

[Old and In the Way]

151. Republican Party

OK, where do I pick up my prize?