So I have been told to outsource my people

[liberal N proud]

A few weeks ago I was in a meeting where a senior manager made the statement that we could outsource our work to India. This statement came on the heels of the bu$h remark that we should not be afraid to outsource our work to India.
There was much furor over the managers comments and lots of back peddling middle management. All saying that is not what he intended, it was just a comment and bla bla bla.
Low and behold, yesterday I was informed that I was to begin looking for companies in India to do our design work.
I am deeply troubled by this and don't know if I can do this to the people who work for me. These are all good people and are experts at what they do. A manager who has no idea what these people do has made an arbitrary decision because his little hero (bu$h) made some dumb ass statement.
I hope these companies who promote the outsourcing and selling off of America suffer greatly by the choices they make. Results will be poor quality product all so the current manager can say to the stockholder, I saved you 10 million this year alone.

When will America wake up? When all is sold off to the foreign crony friends of the bu$h cabal, who will be left to buy the cheap, sub-standard products made in foreign countries?
It will not be the people making those products because they are working for low wages and can't afford the stuff they make.
It will not be the ex-middle class in America because we will be working in service jobs for low wages or standing in soup lines.
The wealthy will only purchase the high end stuff made in Europe. So who do these managers think they are benefiting?

[BuyingThyme]

1. Once your people are gone, what will you do?

[liberal N proud]

2. I guess go with them

I am not past the thought of outsourcing the people yet.
Some one will need to manage what projects are outsourced to where and all the scheduling that is currently done, I just will not have anyone local to do the work.
I simply don't know what these managers are thinking when they make these decisions.

[glitch]

76. Yes you do "the current manager can say to the stockholder, I saved you 10

million this year alone." from your OP

Short-term corruption from the managers and the stockholders. Long-term liquidation of the company itself.

[Locrian]

5. happening all over...

This same thing happened to my brother in law and his wife. Lucent. Trained his replacement then was fired. Of course the rocket scientists running the company /stockholders coocked the books then the stock dumped so he pretty much lost his entire 401K.

Were I work (engineering) we keep bringing in workers from India to train. The metrics are stacked to favor the activity: the company overhead is charged to us and the more they hire (outsource) ours goes up but the "cost" for the overseas goes down. This is in a high tech aero / military industry. Rules are being agreed to and written to allow ALL our IP to go overseas for a buck.

It won't end. It's what happened to the mfg class and it will happen to the whitecollar. I dont have much hope for this country. I see morons who never "made" anything or understand how things actually "work" running everything. They have no soul, they have no respect for anything except for $$ - they only thing they care about is the game.

[adigal]

6. When none of us can afford to buy their cheaply made crap

then the outsourcing will stop. Or maybe not - they'll just sell to India and China.

We seriously need some reps to put some tariffs on goods that have been outsourced to make them equal to American prices. Of course, none of our representatives would do such a thing - they would be called protectionist! Too bad - they need to protect OUR jobs.

[SammyWinstonJack]

41. If they're going to sell it to the Indian or the Chinese workers, they

need to pay them better or lower the price, otherwise those workers won't be able to afford the cheap crap, either. Friggin' geniuses! :spank:

[SoCalDem]

7. First they came for the fabric makers

but the "new fabrics" from the east were cheaper, and just as good , so we said nothing

Then they came for the tee-shirt & towel makers
but the "new imported socks & undies & towels" were just fine..and cheaper too..so we said nothing

Then they came for the steel workers
but our mills were old and creaky, and they polluted, so we said nothing

Then they came for the auto makers
but those new cars were pretty spiffy and saved on gas, so we said nothing

The government said.. re-train..service economy's the plan.. we'll have free time, and tons of money
and so we did..

but

Then they came for the technocrats and programmers we had schooled ourselves to become
but now there are even fewer to speak out..our numbers diluted

We used to make stuff, and now we just sell stuff to each other

until the "new" jobs we have can no longer support our "habit"

[FloridaPat]

15. You forgot the programmers. Nicely done, even if you forgot them.

Well said and so true.

[SoCalDem]

16. I thought they were technocrats

:) I'll add them :)

[helderheid]

40. WELL DONE!

:applause:

[Blue Diadem]

44. Thank you..that's an excellent description n/t

[Neil Lisst]

47. True. Show me a "free trader" and I'll show you someone whose job

cannot be outsourced or done by a foreign worker.

Accountants? Lawyers? Doctors? FREE TRADERS! Why? Because all it means to them is cheaper products, fancy throw rugs woven by children.

[Blue_Tires]

86. well said n/t

[Generic Other]

93. My Japanese relatives are also experiencing "outsourcing"

They own a small factory that manufactures underwear and t-shirts. I always crack up at the samples I get because they mangle the English so badly when they write on the products. You should have seen what a set of "weekly" undies labelled Monday-Sunday looked like (Fliday was my favorite).

Anyway, the past year or so, they have complained that orders are way down and mostly (get this) from Japanese companies who have bought stuff in China and want a Japanese label sewn in, so they can charge more. So a thriving family business that has been reduced to cutting their workers, closing their shop and only employing the immediate family.

Long live capitalism. I think the middle class workers of the world are starting to find out what CLASS WARFARE means.

[RazzleDazzle]

79. No, it won't stop

I didn't have time to actually read this yesterday, but it was very highly thought of by those who did, so I'll pass it along:

If You've been Downsized, Outsourced and Retrained..READ THIS!!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2538119#2538133
Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/26/business/yourmoney/26lou.html?pagewanted=print

Oh, btw, Liberal, my heart goes out to you. You are in one of those no-win situations.

You know what? I just had a thought. Is there some way for you and your people to profit from the outsourcing -- as in become brokers or consultants, or something? (You'll have to do the creative thinking on this since you're the one who knows the business.) I ask that because as I was posting this, I was thinking to myself: there's no way for him to stop this, and eventually it'll probably be his job too. THINK about my idea.

[Clark2008]

3. What's to stop them from outsourcing you?

I agree, when will America wake up?

Eventually, the only work in this country will be public school teachers instructing our youngsters on the proper temperature for fry oil. In private schools, they'll be teaching the youngsters of the hyper wealthy which companies in India in which to invest.

There will be no middle class.

[liberal N proud]

4. Nothing, I am sure

Next year they will need to show another saving so what would be the next logical step? Outsource more people, middle managers and below.
When they roam the empty halls of this building, they will still not be content with the destruction they have wielded.

[Ian David]

8. If you can't stop it, start looking for a job elsewhere.

And make sure that once you find a job, you leave the same day the outsourcing begins.

What you want is for all of your staff to leave at once-- on the same day.

And on that same day, you also want to be gone-- without notice, if possible.

Walk-out without notice if you can.

Let your boss figure out how to manage the outsourced Indian employees without your help.

Imagine if he walked into the office at 9:15 AM to discover that he had nobody but himself to figure out how to tell the Indians what to do.

Maybe also do some research to find the absolute worst firm to outsource to?

It will be an absolute disaster for him.

[liberal N proud]

18. Resume written

[mcscajun]

19. Dramatic, even satisfying, but it might not be an option.

At the firm I used to work at for 32 years, until three years ago, when our work was offshored to an Indian firm, we were "given" a "very nice package" -- with MAJOR strings attached. We had to sign an agreement not to sue the firm for "age discrimination" and we had to train our replacements, or we'd get no severance pay, no training money, no use of the job-counseling service and facility.

We had to train these new people willingly and thoroughly to enable a clean transition, or we'd have Nothing. We'd be fired for cause. I had a lot on the line, as I was eligible to take a Very early retirement so as to keep my medical benefits, and retain my stock options (not worth so much, really, but dollars are dollars) and two years of severance pay. So you better believe I sucked it up and stayed to train my "replacements".

These bastards (corporate management) have got you coming and going. My only sweet thought in all of this is that, like the OP's management, our upper management had not Clue One about all the things we did or were responsible for, they only focused on our supposed primary function, Lotus Notes development, when our department had taken on so much more than that. So, since we were supposed to train them in the applications we had been supporting, we did that...and ONLY that. I'm sure for months afterward, people in other departments we had been supporting were calling around trying to find out who would help them now, and management had to tell them we were gone, and no one picked up those tasks.

On edit: I forgot to mention...I used to be a high-paid techie, now I'm a secretary at my doctor's office. Part-time, yet.

[Ian David]

21. But at least your neighbors can't get gay married

:sarcasm:

[mcscajun]

23. Interesting comment, but irrelevant to the discussion. n/t

.

[Tesha]

36. Not irrelevent at all!

People vote for the Neocons for *INCREDIBLY STUPID REASONS*
such as preventing Adam and Steve from getting hitched. And
then the necons basically bring the whole world tumbling
down in smoking ruins around all of us.

The poster who posted the comment (which I've also posted
from time to time) is, in effect, asking the ironical
question of whether the trade-off (keeping gays from
marrying but losing everything else) was worth it to
the idiots who voted for the neocons.

Tesha

[mcscajun]

50. The OP didn't ask the ironical question.

You're putting those thoughts into the post.
I'm pretty sure the OP was focused on the idiocy of corporate management Influenced by Bush. I don't think the OP had neo-cons and 'gay marriage' distraction in mind.
I certainly didn't.

[Tesha]

61. Sorry, I forgot...

Sorry, I forgot that posts could only flow in those
channels laid-down by the OP.

I'll try to remember this next time.

Tesha

[Cassandra]

25. I am one of those odd people...

who use Lotus Smart Suite. I need to upgrade from the Millenium edition. Any idea if it's worth it?

[mcscajun]

28. Wow. I hadn't heard of anyone using that in quite a while.

Not putting the knock on it, either. It's all about what you're used to and who you have to exchange documents with. Glad it works for you. Whether you stay with it or not depends on how married you are to the various features within the Suite. Are you using a Windows CE device, so that you rely on Easy Sync? Are you just using the 1-2-3 and word processing? Are you (gasp) using Approach? That's what will determine the ease of movement to something else.

Right now, the Millennium edition (9.8) is the latest release. If you're looking for more info, here a two good places to start:

http://www-1.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?rs=0&context=SSCLM5C&context=SSCLM5H&uid=swg27006485&loc=en_US&cs=utf-8&lang=

http://www.experts-exchange.com/Applications/Lotus_Smart_Suite/

[Cassandra]

30. I use 1-2-3 and WordPro...

and Approach, which was working just fine until I switched computers. Now my linked databases became unlinked and one is screwed up. The exchanging documents thing is a problem but manageable and I really like Lotus. I guess I like being a bit of an oddball.

[mcscajun]

52. Unlinked databases. Ouch.

I'm with you on the "oddball" thing. I preferred Netscape over IE for long after the browser wars were lost, but I finally had to give up on it. Fortunately, the tide is shifting again, and I've switched from IE to Firefox, and from Earthlink's mail client to Mozilla's Thunderbird.

As to databases, I used to love dBase III+ (which tells you how far back I go with this techie stuff) but I got used to MS Access (I never learned to love it, though...too complex and clunky.)

Good luck with your databases.

[Ian David]

39. I use Bankstreet Writer n/t

[sinkingfeeling]

42. When I first started your post, I thought it sounded a lot like IBM.

I'm jealous, you actually got 2 years severance. I left IBM after 29 1/4 years (bridge to early retirement), but was capped at 6 months of severance. I found another job within 4 months, so collect my retirement and my salary and benefits from new (state) employer.

Only problem, is the stock I've had forever. Even with all of IBM's outsourcing and pushing 'older' employees out the door, the stock is selling today for less than half of what I bought it for.

[LynneSin]

58. It's a great idea but right now the job market sucks out there

:cry:

[Ian David]

82. But I just heard Andrew Card's replacement say that the economy RECOVERED

from that terrible recession that Clinton left us with.

You're not telling me someone in The White House would lie to us are, you?

[Ian David]

9. What would happen if news of the plan leaked-out to the staff?

Would there be an uproar within the company that might put an end to it?

Is the company high profile enough that the media would pay attention?

[liberal N proud]

11. Most of the staff was in the original meeting

And the latest announcement has been leaked to them.

High profile? I doubt it, but who knows we are a highly recognized company in the market place.

[Ian David]

12. What would your CLIENTS think? n/t

[liberal N proud]

17. Our departments clients are all internal.

I am sure the guy buying our product at Wal-Mart doesn't care where it came from as long as the price is low.

[Iris]

10. I hope your boss is making this decision based on more than Bush's comment

Like an actual plan and/or some research.

Otherwise, you'd all probably be better off somewhere else.

[mcscajun]

20. Management by Magazine, probably.

So many of these bozos read the latest article in Business Week or Barron's and figure they'd better get on the bandwagon or be left behind in the marketplace. That's all the research they need.

Repeating...Bozos.

[The Backlash Cometh]

13. What we need is disaster stories from companies who have outsourced.

I don't know about you, but I am brow-beaten with this outsourcing thing. I have cancelled my subscription to two major software products because I just didn't have the patience to get through the communication problems when I experienced software glitches. I almost felt sorry for one guy, but I'm the consumer and I make the ultimate decision.

[AndyA]

14. They need to be told that some Americans will not do business

with companies that outsource. Perhaps your company doesn't deal directly with consumers, which would make a difference, but I've closed credit card accounts, and stopped doing business with companies who outsource.

I can't understand what the outsourced people are saying, I'm sick of being put on hold to wait for a Supervisor who can speak in a manner I can understand, and I'm sorry but I feel that a person who has a job talking to people on the phone should be able to be understood by those people.

Shouldn't that be job requirement #1.

When I close or move my accounts, I tell them it's because I do not like their outsourcing of jobs, and I will not support them because of it. I will find a competitor with phone centers located in the United States. Yes, it's that important to me.

Be patriotic - support American jobs, American workers, the American economy! No outsourcing!!

[mcscajun]

22. Sometimes it works...a little, anyway.

After a flood of consumer complaints, Dell pulled back their tech support from Bangalore to three US call centers (Texas, Idaho, and Tennessee). Notice they only said Tech Support -- doesn't mean Customer Service got pulled back. So, you can bet, since most tech support these days costs money, that it's the corporate customers yelling that got the tech support pulled back. Customer service is who you and I mostly deal with.

[Cassandra]

27. Buy American when you can.

Here's a couple of very nice companies with American made products:
http://www.walkershatshop.com/
I needed a sun visor and found these guys online. They were super nice, made me 2 custom color sun visors and shipped them to me the same day by Priority Mail. The product is well made, reasonably priced and they were very easy to deal with.

http://www.coatsusa.com/default.htm
Maralyce Ferre is a craftsperson I've bought from for over 20 years and her pieces have held up that long and have plenty of wear in them still. She's a bit pricey but a machine washable jacket pays for itself eventually. Her work is really beautiful and interesting. Every piece makes me feel special.

Where can we park a thread with Buy American recommendations?

[AndyA]

32. I do try to buy American whenever possible

Even if it costs more. I think that's the PATRIOTIC thing to do.

I never shop at Wal-Mart. Can't stand the store. Hate people who shop there. They are shopping themselves and me out of jobs, and they're too stupid to know it. They drive like the idiots they are, cutting you off in traffic in their shitty little foreign cars, so they can support communist China by buying cheap crap at Wal-Mart.

You can't get much more un-American than that.

:argh:

[Horse with no Name]

56. But....most people who don't pay attention see that

because of the VERY SUCCESSFUL brainwashing ad campaign that Walmart did prior to buying everything from China.
You remember the one where they claimed that they wouldn't put it on their shelves if it wasn't made in the USA?
Many folks still believe that is where they are shopping.

[Ian David]

43. Sometimes I feel guilty calling outsourced tech support

For example, I own a PalmPilot Tungsten C.

At the time, it was worth about $500.

I was having technical issues, and having trouble communicating with the guy on the phone who was obviously just reading from a script.

"Should I download PalmDesktopTungstenCWindowsME.exe?"

"No no no! Go to Palm.com. click on USA. Click on Downloads. Now click on Tungsten C. Click on Palm Desktop. Click on Windows ME. and then click on PalmDesktopTungstenCWindowsME."

Eventually, he gave-up and said, "You're going to have to ask your IS department to help you!"

I said, "I don't have an IS department. This is for my own personal use."

His tone changed, and I realized that maybe it was because I had a $500 device for my own personal use, when in his country $500 could feed his entire family for a year. And I, who could afford $500 for a PalmPilot was bitching that I couldn't get my Wi-Fi to connect to the internet. And he has to deal with mudslides destroying whole villages.

We call these people and say, "I'm a college kid, and I want to fly from Los Angeles to New York for the weekend to visit my girlfriend. Do you have any fares under $2,000 for college kids?" We're talking to people who have probably never been on an airplane. Have family they might not have seen in years because they can't afford to travel from the town where the call-center is to their home village. And then we get upset with them when they can't get us a flight with XM Radio.

Of course, if we keep it up, we're going to be in the same boat as they are.

We're driving our country and our economy into the ground while making the world hate us.

Yes, we do deserve decent customer service.

When I get particularly bad service, I've been tempted to say something like, "I use my PalmPilot in my cattle business. My company is developing a new breed of Brahman cow that is genetically engineered to use in medical research. My dad got his start in the cattle business importing them from India for the beef industry. I grew-up eating nothing but steaks from Brahman cows."

It's not true, of course. And I've never done it. Just been tempted. I've let a couple of them have it, but not by using the "I kill your sacred cows" story.

Bush is creating hatred of America on the global scale.

And we, as individual Americans, are venting our frustrations across the globe one customer service rep at a time. Yes, many of them are incompetent and rude. And yes, the cultural barrier can be frustrating. And when we talk to them, we often take it out on them. And sometimes they deserve it.

But we're making them hate us as individuals, while at the same time Bush is making the world hate us as a country.

And we might end up to poor, too bankrupt, and too weak to defend ourselves.

I once made a very dark, gallows humor remark that if any of the 9/11 hijackers were New York taxi drivers, it would have been easy for them to want to drop a plane on the city.

If an entire generation of Indian and Pakistani workers comes of age knowing Americans as the rude, angry, spoiled people yelling at them on the phone, won't that make it easier for them if someone ever asks them to drop a plane on one of our cities? Or to enlist in an insurgency or an army to oppose us? "I have clients in that building. Can I make sure that Mister Jones is in the office when I do it? That bastard keeps yelling at me about his PalmPilot."

The Republican outsourcing plan puts ordinary Americans into a cage match with ordinary Indians and Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, and the arena and the rules are rigged to encourage conflict.

And has anyone asked this question: If the NSA is spying on calls originating outside the country... does that include our customer service and tech support calls to India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Malaysia, etc? What if a suspected Al Quaeda agent is working at a call center?

Outsourcing and immigration: Another way to get us mad at brown people.

[Cassandra]

24. I've been wondering that for years.

The wealth of our country is being raided for short term gain. I'm a jewelry designer and already I see business has dropped off to almost nothing. Many people don't care what kind of garbage they buy as long as it's cheap.

[Nickster]

26. You know, it could take a realllllll long time to find a quality outfit to

do the outsource work. I'd think lots of case studies and site visits to other companies would be in order. Probably going to have to call many,many committee meetings with upper management to truly look at alllllll of the costs/benefits involved.

You know it's realllly hard to find a quality outsourcing firm too. Lots of things could go wrong in the transition.


Just saying.......

[cap]

31. he can't do that... he'll lose his job...

what I suggest is that he run things in parallel...this gives folks a chance to find other jobs. Also, it covers his tail just in case the outsourced firm doesnt work out. (which it often happens). He can keep swapping out outsourced firms until someone does work out. Put Americans on the QA/testing team and have them test the hell out of this stuff... it will buy some time.

[Nickster]

33. I just mentioned that there are a lot of obstacles to doing a job correctl

y. Lots of unforseen pitfalls. Where you choose to take that is entirely up to you.

[cap]

34. he has to be really careful that he doesnt look like he's not

totally onboard with outsourcing... Otherwise he will get axed.

[Nickster]

35. Agreed. n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. Does the local press know about this? Does your department get along?

The news needs to get leaked.

Also, the affected people should tell everyone they know. Perhaps one of the people NOT connected to the company (and untraceable to anyone in it) should write a LTTE asking why the top executives shouldn't be outsourced, too, since obviously an Indian CEO would make far less than an American one. Make the company a laughingstock locally.

In addition, maybe you need a middle-management UNION. All of you stick together and refuse to train your replacements. (They can't fire you all at once without having replacements in place, can they?) I don't know exactly what you do (and you wisely haven't said), but such an action may grind the company to an immediate halt. Maybe your whole department should call a wildcat strike until the company drops the outsourcing plan.

If all potentially outsourceable people around the country stuck together, gathered their courage, and refused to participate in their own firing, this outsourcing nonsense would stop. Not everyone would win (not everyone won during the early phases of unionization), but eventually someone would.

Think of it. Suppose every time a company announced outsourcing, the affected department IMMEDIATELY refused to come in to work at all. Suppose they rallied community support. (Might be difficult, though, because for the most part, white collar types didn't support blue collar workers who were outsourced.) Workers at other companies could send notice to their management that they wouldn't hesitate to do the same if they were so stupid as to try to send jobs overseas.

This outsourcing mania would soon die down.

One thing I've observed in studying history is that a small group of people can tyrannize the masses simply because the masses don't stick together. Mao Zedong's Red Guards terrorized all of China, reorganizing towns and factories and communes according to their whims--until one day, the workers of a factory near Beijing united and fought back against them, killing several and physicallly throwing them out of the factory. Although the Cultural Revolution continued for several more years, Mao immediately reined in the Red Guards.

Let that be an inspiration to all outsourced workers. Stick together.

[newportdadde]

37. We have big time outsourcing at my company.

Our IT area is a shamble of what it was 5 years ago. Lots of good people got mad and left, other got cut. I'd say 50% of the staff is gone. The moral is so bad I can't really explain it. Imagine walking two floors of a large building once brimming at the seams with staff, now you walk through 25% empty cubes and 50% onshore, 25% company employees. Its a rare time indeed if I actually run into someone who isn't onshore when I walk over to use the john.

Most of these guys are young, early 20s they room together for awhile, get a lot of good knowledge then go back home to get married taking the knowledge with them. I'm still considered the young guy at 30 because of the hiring freeze we have had for so many years.

Also their skills are pretty crappy, I've had them use an old copy of a program wiping out changes I had made a month ago etc. Another installation mistake required 20 individuals across multiple groups trying to get it all recovered.

These easy coding changes like I'm speccing now should be going to a young college kid here! That is how you learn the system! That is how you build knowledge, its just getting wasted. In the end we are only screwing ourselves as the older folks here leave taking their experience with them.

Here is what you can expect:

1)They play the hourly game, at first they are very fast with low estimates, they then work their people like dogs unpaid to get it done in time. Once they get the in and you basically have no analysts left and HAVE to use them there estimates get creep. Before you know it even if they cost 1/3rd, the damn hours are twice as much.

2)Their testing is horrid, be sure to have a STRONG analyst available to test and double check their work.

3)No company loyalty, they don't think "Wait will this effect XYZ group?" They don't care they just do it.

4)They never say no, even to ideas that need to be said no too, part of the training to smile and get along. This can have many fun and interesting side effects.

5)Expect problems and production failures.

[liberal N proud]

48. Your wat to expect sounds like some valid concerns

Thanks for the information.

Through the day, I have been thinking about this and am putting together a plan that I can pitch to management that will save the people who work for me.

[land of the free]

91. good for you. More suggestions

Good luck to you. I know this is a very difficult situation, as I've had friends who have ben assigned the same horrible task. Unfortunately, they were not able to convince their executives of reasons why to not go down this path. Now, everyone is miserable because things are going so poorly.

Some suggestions of what to consider in your pitch/discussion:

1. Have they consulted with other companies in your industry and done a lot of research on the pros and cons of this? Is it acually a successful model in your industry? For some industries, outsourcing works, but for others, it can be a disaster. Understand also that your competition might not want to admit how bad it's failing them, but you should be able to tell by their company's performance since moving to the outsourcing model.

2. Have they done a full investigation of the up-front costs today and expanded what the costs vs. benefits will be one, five, and ten years down the road? Do they fully understand what the turnover ratio of India's workers in their industry is, and what the rising costs due to competition for the best workers will be? Understand that many overseas companies will not lock into a long-term contract (usually 1-3 years) with guaranteed costs because they know the pay rates are skyrocketing (in many industries the pay rates are rising 20%-40% per year.) This means your costs may rise dramatically as you've become dependent on these companies because you've laid off your local workers.

EDIT: I should have also added that you should have some type of guarantee that the company you're hiring to do your work will actually do the work. Often, they do it for a year, then they hire a different company and outsource the work to even cheaper labor. Sooner or later, the Indian company hires a Chinese company, which hires a eastern European company, and so on. Eventually, they'll probably outsource it to unemployed Americans who used to have the jobs.

3. Have they realized the enormous increase in local management costs and time to manage a business with many workers who are on the opposite side of the globe? Between different hours (we're sleeping often while they're working), ongoing training due to high turnover of contracted staff, communication issues, and many other problems that can arise from such an arrangement, the amount of management involvement will increase significantly.

4. Have they considered the loss of knowledge and potentially loss of intellectual property when they transfer information and tasks overseas?

5. Have they researched any impact on contracts with customers (for example, with a lot of government work and other contracts, there are many legal issues that have to do with transfering a client's info overseas)?

6. Have they considered any language and cultural training that might be necessary for your remaining workers? Also, you may have to do a lot to retain those key people, as morale will drop considerably.

7. Finally, if they think this is such a wonderful, "Go Bush" kind of idea, ask them (if you dare) what is wrong with American workers, what is wrong with keeping jobs here and keeping your good, loyal people employed. I'll guess the answer is the almighty dollar. What an anti-patriotic thing to do.

The US is really in a bind because we have to pay our workers benefits. Outsourcing to a country of well-educated people appears to save the US company a lot of money after about 5 years because of the savings on health insurance. Until we get a national healthcare system, we will see many high-paid high-tech jobs leave our country.

Good luck in your pitch.

[Dr. Jones]

38. HOLY SHIT, I'M SPEECHLESS!! And MAD AS HELL!

America ain't what it used to be, that's for damn sure.

What jobs are safe? What jobs can't be outsourced?

Bye bye middle class America.

[Ian David]

45. Things that are being outsourced

Tax preparation
Mamogram interpetration
Pap Smear interpretation
X-Ray interpetation
The voice on the speaker at the drive-thru window

X-rays outsourced to India
http://health.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1435209.cms



McDonald's Outsourcing Their Drive Thru Windows
http://mcdonaldization.com/viewtopic.php?t=12&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=435ba94b5a665c639c76be17da61f21a

[mcscajun]

51. The only jobs that are "safe" are those that are absolutely Hands-On.

If it needs to be Touched, it's safe. If it can be done remotely, it will be.

If you've got children, get them into the trades: Plumbers and electricians will always be needed. Someone on another post here this morning mentioned the septic industry. Shitty work (literally) but lucrative.

[Dr. Jones]

57. True, but unfortunately

even those trades can be INSOURCED! Pretty soon they will be I fear, probably by illegals the way things are going.

I live in an apt. community where virtually NONE of the maintenance staff knows English.

[cantstandbush]

46. I tell you, it's the STOCKHOLDERS we must go after. None of this could

happen if the stockholders of these companies didn't allow it. They allow obscene CEO salries, stealing workers' benefits and retirements, all in the name of getting a bigger and bigger bottom line. It's not just enough to make a more than reasonable profit, they want all profit, no risk, and very little investment. Until we know who the real enemy is they will continue to kick our butts. But how do you expect the American public who believes Saddam was responsible for 9/11 to even begin to understand this?

[n2doc]

77. Stockholders have almost zero power

It is all a big lie. Most of the stock in a listed corp is either held by the founders (or their families) or big investment funds/pension plans. These folks don't give a damn about the effects of outsourcing, just the short term bottom line. The only time anything does happen is if someone with very deep pockets buys a big chunk of stock and starts making waves. It is why so many of these companies are just used as ATM's by their Leaders- there are never any consequences.

[JohnyCanuck]

49. capitalism - a system of inexorable compulsion

The Market as Purgatory

by
Jens Jessen

Capitalism has changed its face. The elation of 1989 seems far behind, when the collapse of the socialist camp was celebrated generally as the triumph of the market economy. Only the conservative sociologist Niklas Luhmann, himself not one to long nostalgically for socialism, had no wish to speak of victory: In his opinion, the most one might say was that the collapse of socialism had preceded that of capitalism.

To argue with Luhmann over the prophetic quality of his pronouncement is no longer possible, as he, in the meantime, has died. Still it is certain that capitalism’s stock throughout the world, and even in the Western countries of its birth, has sunk dramatically. Equally certain, it has long since ceased to be a problem only for the Left. All the authors whom we queried in our series on the “Future of Capitalism,” whether scientist, philosopher or writer, whether from Europe, America or the Third World, whether conservative, liberal of leftist, all were of the opinion that capitalism, which had, for centuries, brought fabulous prosperity to the West, could only be viewed today as a kind of threat.

Even the Entrepreneur Sees Himself a Victim

Even captains of industry, making the rounds of the television talk shows, anxiously shake their heads and assert--and believably--that they are at the mercy of a free market, which allows no leeway for their decision-making. They don’t want to order mass layoffs, the return on capital demands it; they don’t want to relocate factories abroad, but the competition forces them to; they don’t want to shut companies or to gut them, but the market with its remorseless fluctuations makes this, unhappily, unavoidable.

This is an astonishing turn of events. Describing capitalism as a system of inexorable compulsion used to be, rather, the specialty of leftist critique. What is prompting businessmen today to adopt the language of Marxist alienation as a self-description? Is it merely a rhetorical trick for deflecting personal responsibility onto the system? Or are they beginning to feel themselves victims of that alienation which consists in having to act otherwise than how one actually wants to act?

http://www.logosjournal.com/issue_5.1/jessen.htm

[devilgrrl]

53. Your company is going to be paying a lot of $$$$ for NOTHING!!!!!

Yeah, that's right, you won't save a penny outsourcing but you will get a lot of substandard work. Will it be worth it? Don't count on it.

[liberal N proud]

55. I have already determined that quality is no longer important here

it is all about how much salary dollars can be cut from the budget "this year"
Then next year it will be done again.
3 years ago, this facility had over 700 employees, we are down to 400, Until this year it was all done by offering attractive early retirement programs. But that only works while your work force is old enough to take those programs. Now they have to find other ways to reduce the salaries on the books.

[devilgrrl]

64. Fine. What you'll be saving on salaries you'll be spending fixing...

all the mistakes and shit work you're going to get. In other words, you're not saving a cent. Looks good on paper though. :sarcasm:

[The Straight Story]

54. I have been dealing with this at work as well

We outsourced a group to india and I have been giving the folks from india tours of our centers - cause they have never seen a data center. Now they won't be working in one over there (the centers stay here) but some of the project work revolving around systems inside it has been outsourced to them.

So people one floor up from me are now out of work, and we have to deal with people a long ways away on a different time zone, to save a few pennies.

Now I don't mind us growing our business in india, they have a growing base of consumers and having offices there like we do helps us and them. What I am seeing though is if functions overlap they decrease the people here and hire people over there (and getting rid of overlap is a good thing).

[Horse with no Name]

59. I recently closed my company

Basically because of Bush policies.
Tort reform, bankruptcy changes, as well as outsourcing all impacted (or will impact in the near future) our bottom line. My partners and I felt that our best offense would be to return to the public sector and amass as much cash as we can and pay off as many bills as we can. I will not be investing any money--just hanging on to it. Downsizing, etc.
I am returning to work in the hospital because I truly feel that skilled service jobs are going to be the only safe harbor in the storm we are headed for.
My job isn't outsource-able and in the 3 years that I have been in the private sector, the job I am going back to pays $10 more an hour than when I left. I'm very fortunate and feel badly for those that are not as fortunate.

[Swamp Rat]

60. Why not demonstrate to the asshole managers that it is impossible to find

a place to outsource the work y'all do (or else the products will be inferior). Throw a wrench in the gears and stop this travesty... at least before you quit. If you do decide to quit, get as much info on the place and the managers as possible, just in case you decide to write a letter to the editor. ;)

[Nikki Stone1]

62. kicking Swamp Rat's post and suggestions

My friend in NOLA lost her tech job some time back and has never recovered. She can't get a job at her expertise level and salary level because so much has been outsourced.

[Swamp Rat]

63. I feel her pain

literally. :(

[Nikki Stone1]

66. I know you do. I've been reading your posts. Right now, she is working

with her younger male relatives pulling apart hurricane-damaged homes on a per-job basis. SHe is a very little person and about 50. These days of physical labor are very hard on her. I talked to her last night and she was downing Motrin for the pain. I want her to move--either out here or with her kids up north, be she refuses: New Orleans is her home and she is adamant about remaining.

I'll say one thing for all of you down in New Orleans: you're the stubbornest bunch when it comes to loving and defending your home. If it were up to you all, New Orleans would be completely rebuilt. The sad thing is, I don't think it will be up to New Orleans.

[nini]

65. do some cost analysis on this stuff

In the long run this ends up costing companies money. From the missed deadlines, lost time in different time zones, pissed off customers who hate this etc.. Almost everyone I know at a company that did this said they regret it. It ends up being less cost effective than keeping things inhouse or at least in the states.


convince them it's better from a long-term financial standpoint.

[Squeech]

67. Exactly

Recent post of mine in another thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=763406&mesg_id=763527

Basically my argument is, there's a whole 'nother agenda to outsourcing. Saving money is the least of it (especially if the new workers fail to understand the requirements and the job has to be done all over again, at which point you've lost time and haven't saved anything). But another important part of the agenda is to eliminate workers who might otherwise think of themselves as stakeholders and might throw a money wrench into management plans, I now believe.

[Nikki Stone1]

68. In other words, it's to remove upper management layers so far from

the workers that they can't even begin to fight them?

[Squeech]

69. I say

the main thing is to disempower the middle class, reduce us all to a condition of literal wage slavery.

I don't think this specific bunch of managers knows what they're doing, beyond a nice little bump in their quarterly bottom line. But the OP thinks they got the idea out of some magazine, and I think the people who publish the magazine do have a clearer idea of what results they expect from the management policies they advocate.

It occurs to me that corporate balance sheets have a line item called "good will," which doesn't quite mean what it says but attempts to put a dollar value on the advantage of having served their market decently in the past, and having customers that remember that. But there is no such line item for "human capital" or "institutional memory" or any way to give the workers any credit for the past success of the business. It may just be as simple as that: if there were a labor force equivalent of "good will" on the balance sheet, management might not forget the significant value embodied in long term employees!

[mcscajun]

70. "Institutional Memory" -- you hit a good point there.

That's a huge chunk of what is lost when older workers are forced out in favor of offshoring.

We train our replacements in our essential tasks, and we tell them who their critical contacts are, but there is no way to transfer our institutional memory: the knowledge of who is impacted by what, how our actions impact the firm as a whole and what we need to take into account in making decisions, why we should do things a certain way and no other without good cause, the key people to call or the action to take when that bizarre but rarely occurring problem comes up...all the little things that make long-term employees valuable, useful and effective at what they do...all that gets lost when we're shown the door.

What workers need to keep in mind these days is two-fold: 1) Management is engaged in "what have you done for me lately?" and 2) Loyalty is dead, so act accordingly. Do NOT kill yourself on the job thinking that your dedication will help to save you from the ax; it won't. Keep your eyes and ears open for signals that your department is "on the block". Keep your resume constantly updated, and your networking contacts alive. Keep both your resume and your network of names and numbers offsite. You may need them both on very short notice...like when you're escorted from the building by security the day of your layoff.

[Nikki Stone1]

75. Good points all

And it's all about looking out for #1. Which means customers get crap.

[Nikki Stone1]

72. I agree with what you think the ultimate goal is

I've been using the term corporate feudalism for years, but I think you are right that feudalism also requires some responsibility on the part of the governing family, church, etc. to the people,at least to keep the people from rebelling and coming after them.

I think you are right that the employees who are management don't really know what the goal is. They tend to follow "trends"--there's a whole set of social expectations on doing the next new innovative thing.

I like your idea about corporate balance sheets, but dream on....

Also, I added something to your post on the other thread.

[liberal N proud]

73. Our company use to have a motto "Our people are our most valuable asset"

It was on signs in all the conference rooms and hallways. Even printed on Company letterheads. That motto disappeared about 6 years ago.

[unblock]

71. research the business drawbacks of outsourcing

the company i work for has done and is continuing to do some work with software companies in india, although no jobs have been displaced because of this. we didn't lay anyone off and would not have been able to afford it hiring in the u.s. so the work simply would not have gotten done.

but there are things that we'll never outsource and there are good reasons for this.

first, there are problems outsourcing in general (not necessarily to a foreign country like india), such as a loss of control over the project, timeline risk, budget risk, training risk, support risk, etc. my wn pet peeve is that with in-house software, you can very easily get a new feature rolled in, whereas this might be very, very expensive and complicated in an outsourced deal. another big thing is that you have to be able to spec out the project very carefully when you're outsourcing otherwise the software company will (deliberately or otherwise) really take advantage of you.

second, there are problem specific to outsourcing to india, most noticeably the time zone. language can also be an issue. nearly everybody you would ever speak to speaks english, but the accents can be nearly incomprehensible. also there are cultural and style differences, and discribing a feature or a user interface style can take extra iterations because you take something for granted because most american universities teach programming in a relatively standard fashion, whereas indian universities can have a different approach.

upper management usually just sees "oh, they work for 1/5th what u.s. programmers work for" and think they've hit the jackpot. but you really need to dedicate from full-time u.s. resources to oversight and testing and communication and training and budget renegotiations and contract disputes so on, which seriously eats into your cost savings.

and most of all, outsourcing is out of the question if you don't really have a safely outsourceable project. personally, i would never outsource a software architecture. i'd want to hire locally the people who really understand the project, but i wouldn't mind outsourcing some tedious aspect of the project, such as many user interface screens.

[Gregorian]

74. It's all about money.

We are witnessing the leveling of incomes. This is what they mean by a global economy. People will suffer. Eventually we will all be making identical incomes. Chinese, Americans, and all of the rest. Mind, this is just my theoretical thinking here. This only happens if there is nothing to interrupt it. Like war, global warming, etc. What's good for business is bad for the workers, I am guessing. But eventually, we are going to hit that plateau where we are really in a global economy. I don't see anything bad about that. What's bad is, getting there.

I'm sorry to say that I saw this coming a long time ago. So I didn't have children. And I designed my life so that I would not need work. I cannot imagine what this must be like for you in the working world. Well, I can. My last job was as an engineer. And my job was actually outsourced to the Canadians. It was devastating to me for a short period of time. And then I went back to my independent life of no work. I am aware of the fact that I'm not working by virtue of wealthy people being willing to give me money for something I have that they want. And my timing is impeccable. I'm just lucky.

Think of how happy the Indians are. I only say that because it's true, and it puts this in perspective. I'm really quite angry about it, to be honest. And it's going to increase in speed. It's not good news for us. But if your eyes were even partially open, you saw this coming a long time ago.

Sorry. Just another stupid post of mine. Not much to add.

[mcscajun]

83. Not much to add? How about the book you should be writing for us

on How you designed your life so that you wouldn't need work? And letting us in on what exactly wealthy people are willing to give you money for that Doesn't involve work?

Big Secret or what?

[Gregorian]

84. Property on the west coast of California.

And it was in all truth, a quest for beauty that went "wrong". I ended up making money. And hating it. I just wanted a cabin in the woods. But each property had it's own way of kicking me out. And the result, in retrospect, was a vivid sampling of every kind of land. I started out with a total beater of a house in the Bay Area. There are no fixers any more. But I took that and moved into a 350 square foot shack, where I lived for four years. Huge twelve foot oak trees right along side of giant old growth redwood trees. A unique place. I sold that to an engineer from Sun Microsystems who wanted to be near Silicon Valley, but up in the mountains. Then a huge piece of land two hours north of San Francisco. You can't buy big land anymore, unless super rich. And I sold that to a man who worked with Condolizza Rice. He wanted a place north of San Francisco. Then off to an old farm in Humboldt county, where I had a glorious old 90 by 70 foot solid redwood barn. And now, Oregon.

And my place in Oregon is "rabid, retarded, Republican". The place in Humboldt county was invaded by subdivisions. The land north of SF had 90 degree NIGHTS all summer long. And so on.

So I've been able to do absolutely nothing but enjoy being on my property for fifteen years, and make money doing it. Of course there was a bit of work. But it was my own sweaquity, as I call it.

I'm sure a lot of people have done the same thing, and probably done better than me. And the bottom line is, you can keep the stinking money. All I want is silence. And it hasn't gotten easier to find since I started. I'm on my way out of here, and have no idea if I'll find "home".

But the basic idea was, I was not going to be in that "idiot parade" on the freeway every morning and night. And that was worth a lot.

[mcscajun]

87. Sounds like the Midwest might be next for you.

There are towns there that are virtually Begging people to move in. Some will even pay (of course, they want families for that.)

[Ilsa]

78. Alot of it doesn't work too well, and I've read where a lot

of companies regret that decision because they've lost business through poor customer service, lost control over data, etc.

[Career Prole]

80. This will not stop. Never. Never. Never. Unless...

...unless we muster the collective sack to have a general strike.

I guess that really means never, then. :shrug:

[melissinha]

81. 2 ideas: Buy Blue and invest Blue

I suggest that we really try to get out the message that we need to buy from labor and environmentally conscious companies.... I suggest that people who are experiencing outsourcing also report that to BuyBlue so they can reflect that in their ratings and research that the public can see ( that way you can be anonymous)


http://www.buyblue.org/ Stop supporting companies that don't support your values.
Reward companies that have a triple bottom line:
People, Planet and Profit

Then, I suggest that people invest in companies that are pro-labor and environment... Withdraw funds from irresponsible companies....

[harpo]

85. you aren't my boss are you? If so see the following post...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=4951706&mesg_id=4951710

;)

[RagAss]

88. I'd be scared.....what if one of them snaps...

...even 10 years from now and comes looking for you. Quit dude. Get another job somewhere. Let someone else do that evil shit to them.

[land of the free]

94. the laid-off employees will know it's not middle

management's decision to outsource. It's the executives, the board, etc. trying to make higher profits for their investors.

Sometimes, the best thing a person in middle-management can do is try to fight to keep their workers, and then implement the plan they're ordered to do. Insist that the employees are informed honestly - not only is it wrong to lie to them, it may be illegal. The middle-manager can do his or her best to make sure to advise employees on their best skills, suggest what areas to work on to be an even better candidate, and give them a lot of support.

BTW, first they outsource the people that thysically do the work. Next, they move to outsource middle-management. Sooner or later, they just fold or sell the company to an overseas investor.

It's a terrible business model, but until we get a national health care system (so that employers are not footing a lot of the healthcare bill), more skilled American workers will lose their jobs.

[upi402]

89. You're a real leader. Your coworkers are fortunate, and unfortunate

Too bad your boss is a BushBot. Ya know, I've been dealing with wealthy people lately. Live high end and don't have to work.

They are useless brats. Wasted skin.

[sentelle]

90. There is only one group we need to outsource

The only group that needs to be outsourced is the one who has the idea for this... namesly upper management.

1/5th the cost? means that we can get a CEO for less than a mil....

Yes, there is sarcasm, but truth works too.

[specimenfred1984]

92. Your Company Is Likely Going Under Anyway

A large percentage of companies that downsize are out of business 5 years later.

Sorry to hear it. If you are leaving anyway, let someone else do the outsourcing. IMO, you should be leaving anyway as the company probably won't be doing well in the future.

Or you can always move to India.