Why does a minister's wife kill?

[Blue_Roses]

I have been following this case in Tennessee and I have to say, I along with other friends are wondering what the hell made her do this. Was it abuse? Locked into a relationship with no hope?What????

[EST]

1. Mebbe she just hated his ass.

[Saphire]

42. lol...sometimes it's the simplest answer.

[Neil Lisst]

2. The Devil made her do it.

[Raine]

3. Abuse

probably, lot's of those bible thumpers are real neaderthals with 'their' women.

[MADem]

4. Or their kids??

Who knows. We'll have to wait until they put together a defense to find out.

[Appalachian_American]

6. A neighbor claimed that the husband threatened to shoot their

dog if it came into his yard. I think that little tidbit could be analyzed from many different angles. And some could be innocent. Others could give some insight into possible abusive tendencies on his part.

[Wetzelbill]

13. that was the first thing that I thought of

have no clue if it's true or not, however, maybe he was a terrible SOB behind closed doors. You never know, the guy could have been pretty bad and just pushed her over the edge.

[Kipling]

5. "A relationship with no hope" is no excuse!

I can understand how abuse might be a factor, but if I got married and then got bored with my wife I wouldn't just gun her down.

[AndyTiedye]

8. Did They Have One Of those Divorce-Proof "Covenant Marrriages"?

When they say "Until death do us part" they really mean it.

[Horse with no Name]

63. or perhaps he threatened to harm her or her children if she left?

Since he was a minister, his flock might not think too kindly of someone leading them when he can't keep his own house in order.
I couldn't say--I'm not completely proficient in "Fundiethink".

[MADem]

11. Maybe it was an accident?

Or maybe they weren't what they seemed...they could have had a kinky private life, and she might not have realized the gun was loaded. Ya never know what people get up to behind closed doors.

Whatever the reason, the police are not letting any info out.

[TNDemo]

35. His father and her father were both ministers.

I am assuming with the COC. I imagine if she was in an abusive relationship and wanted to leave she felt like she would have no support from anyone if she left. Of course this is all just supposition. Or maybe she has postpartum psychosis. Who knows. Obviously she wasn't thinking straight or it would not have been done the way it was.

[AndyTiedye]

69. Marriage Arranged By Their Parents?

[Solly Mack]

7. No idea but being a minister's wife really wouldn't make her less

likely to kill. At least I've never seen a shred of evidence that would suggest to me that those associated with the clergy are any less likely to committ a crime than anyone else.

I don't know why she killed her husband, but I don't think her being a minister's wife makes the crime greater or more shocking or more anything...

I imagine her motives were the same as many people who kill

Maybe he was abusive and she killed in self defense
Maybe she just wanted out and this was her way
Maybe she just didn't like him
Maybe he had a huge insurance policy she wanted
Maybe she just went nuts one day
Maybe they had a fight and she grabbed the gun first
Maybe she had a lover and divorce would have been too costly
Maybe she was mentally ill and God or the dog told her to do it
Maybe he was having an affair and she ended it with finality
Maybe he was sexually abusing the children

and any other reason people give for killing

[H2O Man]

24. On NBC

her attorney noted her youngest child's age, which hints at a specific type of depression. Further, he noted that she was reportedly not able to sleep well in recent times.

As many people on DU know, there is a model used to evaluate how a person is functioning, on five levels (or "Axis"). It's changed slightly in recent years, but in general, one evaluates for: major mental illness; personality disorders; physical injury/illness/disability; how well the person has functioned, on a scale of 1 to 100, in the past year (the "high point"); and how they rate on that scale today.

It may be interesting to see how this woman is viewed by those who have access to information that we do not. Once these are determined, it will be possible to view her crime in a more proper context. It will be far more interesting than some of the speculating and projecting that has been going on here at DU.

[Solly Mack]

54. I must confess to not having read or seen the news items

relating to this event other than the very first blurb. (basically "minister's wife shoots minister")

I gather from what you've said you're thinking the defense will be extreme postpartum depression, yes?
A very real and very serious condition.

I wish I had not read that. lol Bias and judgment can be formed so easily. And even when opinion formed is to the good, it can still be a bias.


There's a host of reasons people kill - some understandable(even if still unsettling), some not...and some that demand compassion and mercy.

I mainly just feel sorry it happened at all.

I do fear, however, that people will judge the "minister's wife", and not see the woman. She's a woman first.

[H2O Man]

60. The defense attorneys

may uncover -- indeed, may already have uncovered -- another reason. It could be that he was a shit. Possible a violent, threatening shit. Nevertheless, the law doesn't generally allow folks to shoot even mean people. Thus said, the defense still will always start with her -- what was her level of functioning, and how did it impact her actions in the context of her family life in the months, weeks, and days leading up to the murder? The defense will start with her, then move on to the victim.

Postpartum depression could be, according to the attorney in his first interview with NBC, part of the measure of her functioning. In theory, it could explain, in part, her lack of sleep, which could connect to her functioning level at the time of the shooting. I am not saying this to either excuse or convict; merely to say her judgement may have been way, way off of what it was at other times in her life.

No matter what comes out (and it is possible that the truth might), this is tragic. Three little girls are victims; the man is dead; and the woman will likely be in prison. Extended families are damaged, as is the fabric of our society. Those poor little children.

[Solly Mack]

61. Agreed. This is tragic

I'm sorry it happened at all. Something went terribly wrong in that house.

[Neil Lisst]

9. her winning argument is ...

her winning argument is ... He was sexually molesting the kids, she confronted him, he smacked her and told her he'd kill her if she reported him.

... and scene

If she can sell that, she walks.

[Clark2008]

14. Could be the truth... nothing to "sell." eom

[LostinVA]

26. Exactly

[Neil Lisst]

59. even if the truth, she still has to sell it

Otherwise, she goes away a long time.

[Kipling]

15. She'll have a tough time selling that - they would look for evidence.

Although there is always that nasty little chance that it really could have happened.

[0007]

28. I'll second that

[tocqueville]

10. why are those Xians armed with guns ?

what would Jesus have done ?
What caliber does he recommend ?
automatic or half-automatic ?

so many questions....

[rooboy]

12. Huh? Does being a "minster's wife" make her different from other women?

n/t

[lukasahero]

57. Or men?

[Maddy McCall]

71. Yes. It's a suffocating environment in which her every move is watched...

by her husband's congregation.

I have a good friend who was married to a church pastor. She married him while she was young, still in college. They are now divorced--he was very publicly busted for having an affair with a woman on the church's staff.

She is doing well now. Has her own career in the area in which she received her college degree. She still has moments of terrible sadness about the whole thing, but she's glad she's out.

You cannot imagine the confines she lived in as a pastor's wife--always being watched, always having snide remarks made about her if she pampered herself in the least way, couldn't join other women at the country club for card games because it might appear that she was gambling and drinking or that she could afford to do what many of her husband's congregation couldn't afford. Had to watch how she decorated the house, lest the deacons make jokes that "we're paying your husband too much." Every move watched by everyone in town.

It's a life I would never want, under any circumstances.

[NVMojo]

16. why did Andrea Yates, the wife of a fundie, kill her 5 kids?

[ClintonTyree]

17. Post-partum depression........

was her defense. And if I'm not mistaken, she's being given a new trial as we speak. In my opinion, there is NO excuse for murder. None. If you're in a rotten situation, walk away. You do not "solve" the problem by murdering someone.

[LostinVA]

25. NOT depression -- pyschosis... two very different things

And, go talk to women at domestic abuse shelters: sometimes it's not possible to just walk away. An abusive relationship can literally be like being locked up in an emotional (and sometimes physical ) prison... when you have kids, it makes it that much harder to leave.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

40. Yes, there is a big difference between post partum & psychosis.

After my first son was born I had a severe case of post-partum depression. I had panic attacks and horrible visions of how I could stop my colicky baby from crying. I never acted on any of those visions but I could see if someone was a little further along in the throes of this horrible hormone imbalance, where they could. At the time I was suffering from this (19 years ago yesterday) there was no mention of this really and I felt very much alone. A few years later it came into the public light.

Thank goodness that I didn't have this problem after my second son was born.

[mondo joe]

47. Why is she the "wife of a fundie" rather than a fundiie herself?

[GeorgeGist]

18. The most likely reason...

was to protect her children.

[watrwefitinfor]

19. Abuse of the children was what I thought of.

Preachers can be a smarmy lot.

wat

[slackmaster]

20. Blaming the victim isn't the answer

You always have the option to leave a relationship. Nothing he could have done to her justified murder.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

21. I don't believe in the death penalty, nor murder, but ask millions of

abused spouses how easy it is to leave a relationship. Some leave in body bags.

[LostinVA]

27. To quote the Dixie Chicks' "Goodbye Earl":

"BUT EARL WALKED RIGHT THROUGH THAT RESTRAINING ORDER
AND PUT HER IN INTENSIVE CARE."

Lots of women are killed or almost killed when they leave. Experts know that is THE most dangerous time in an abusive relationship.

[alarimer]

30. IF he was abusing her (I am merely speculating here)

I'd consider what she did self-defense. Abusers never stop.

[LostinVA]

32. Right, I have no idea about this particular case

And I don't condone cold-blooded murder... but systematic emotional, mental, and physical abuse is literally torture. Abusees often say the physical abuse it the lesser of all the evils... that what is done to their minds is far, far worse...

IF this lasy was abused, her place in life would amke it even harder to leave...

[alarimer]

62. The police have said they know the motive

but are not telling. So I am just guessing here. Or it could have been an accident. Or maybe she just lost it one day. We don't know at this point and I don't want to assume the guy was a bad guy and "had it coming".

[slackmaster]

43. This is the kind of reply that makes me love DU

If you say a murder victim had a role to play in his or her demise, you get beaten up by one set of people and accused of "blaming the victim".

If you say a murder victim didn't deserve to be murdered, you get beaten up by a different set of people who say the crime must have been justified in some way, or at least "understandable".

The age, gender, and skin color of the murderer and the murder victim often determine who says what. Sometimes the manner in which the killing was carried out cause different emotional responses, which in turn affect some individuals' attitudes about the crime.

Here's my take on it: Murder victims often contribute to their fates, either through bad behavior or by failing to take precautions that were available. Some murder victims are bad people, some are good people who have made some bad choices, and some are completely innocent. But in no case is murder (or capital punishment of murderers), ever justified.

Have a great day.

:hi:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

52. "But in no case is murder (or capital punishment of murderers),

ever justified."

Well said Slackmaster

Have a great day too and peace.
:hi:

[Clark2008]

23. Really?

I think I'd excuse her for killing him if he was diddling the kids.

If he was abusing her over a period of years, I wouldn't convict her of first-degree murder either (which is what she's charged with), but I'd probably give her a lesser-included charge, such as manslaughter. She shouldn't get off scott-free, but I'd consider her killing more of a delayed self-defense than first-degree murder.

[slackmaster]

44. I was in an abusive relationship

It didn't start out that way, but it got pretty bad.

I called the police once. It didn't do any good.

I got out in March 2003.

I wasn't born yesterday, Clark2008. I've seen a lot of relationship situations, my own and others.

Killing another person is justified only in self-defense, and that means in response to an immediate threat of your own death or great bodily harm.

[Clark2008]

58. But it also means in the defense of your children in most states.

Children who are too young to defend themselves can be defended by a parent.

I, also, was in an abusive relationship, slackmaster, so I'm no stranger to this odd dynamic, either.

I know the ins and outs of longterm domestic abuse both personally and in covering the murders of women (and it was always women, but I'm sure men are killed, too) who tried and tried to get out of these relationships and couldn't. Hell, one woman had gotten out and her ex killed her when she came over to pick up the children they jointly shared custody of.

My position is that, as a juror, if it were proven that the husband was fondling the children, I probably would consider the killing self-defense by proxy because they have no other choice, themselves. But, if the abuse were confined to the mother, and, again, if it were proven, I'd be more inclined to let her go with manslaughter and time served for having to live with the abusive bastard.

That said, we don't know all the facts in this case, but if those become the issues, those are my positions.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

22. Same Reasons Other Cold Blooded Murderers Kill, I Would Think. n/t

[sendero]

29. I went.

.... to church sporadically as a child. I noticed even then that the preacher's kids were almost always a total mess.

In my adult years, I mentioned this to a close friend. He said he'd noticed the same thing. His theory was that the kids were a mess because on Sunday they heard their father spouting a lot of crap that he in no way lived up to the rest of the week.

It's just a theory, but I think it is probably close to the truth a lot of the time. We all know from following politics, just because someone proclaims his love of Jesus, it doesn't mean he isn't more likely to act like the devil :)

[tnlefty]

46. The worst of this type of situation that I've come into contact with is a

female whose father was one of the extremely strict "Pentecostal" type of preacher. Fire and brimstone sermons and he put on a good show in the community, but he beat the hell out of her, her mother and her brothers. Regularly beat the hell out of them. He began raping her when she was around 8. She has been diagnosed with bipolar and emotional disorders (imagine that), she has been in mental hospitals 6 times, she has attempted suicide twice and she damned near succeeded once.

The sad thing is that she is acting out a lot of the extreme religious aspects with her own children, while behaving differently that what she proclaims and how she lives. I don't think that she has beaten them, but I have heard her say some REALLY nasty things to them.

It's sad.

[DemonFighterLives]

31. She looks mentally disturbed

but it could have been his doing. The congregation sure seemed to like him, but there could be weird things going on behind the scenes. Law enforcement seems to be alluding to some dangerous situation- whatever that means?
The whole culture of fundy/gun nuts is a problem waiting to happen. When God doesn't answer the prayer quick enough, all hell breaks loose.

[WinkyDink]

33. I'm going with the abuse theory. Aren't many thrill-killing women.

And it's the husband who's dead here, not the children (Andrea Yates; the woman portrayed by Farah Fawcett who shot her children in the car; Susan Smith; etc.), so I doubt there's another man.

[Horse with no Name]

64. You really can't lump these women together

The dynamics of their crimes were completely different.
Andrea Yates had severe diagnosed and not treated postpartum psychosis without a support system.
Diane Downs systematically planned out and executed one child and attempted to execute the other two to make herself more desirable for the man she loved that did not want children.
Susan Smith also planned out a sensational story--complete with attackers after the murder of her children. She did grow up in an abusive situation and I am not familiar enough with the details to say whether or not she was insane when she killed the kids.

[Dob Bole]

34. Every post in this topic is going to be speculative bullshit...

she killed him. I don't think there is a justifiable reason for that.

[LostinVA]

41. Severe abuse is a reason for justifiable homicide

Definitely legally, and often morally. I'm not necessarily talking about this case, but any case. As another poster said, it is very, very rare to have a woman murder her husband just for the hell of it (ie socipathic reasons). It's usually some type pf abuse, and lesser reasons are usually money (insurance), or infidelity. The cops already said no on the infidelity, not too many preachers have big insurance policies (and the cops would know that by now) and she was making no effort to cover anything up and collect, and it's doubtful she's a sociopathic murdered. So... the odds are she's mentally ill or was ina controlling, abusive relationship. Both of these -- legally and morally -- are grounds for justifiable homicide.

It will be interesting to see what happens in this case.

[zbdent]

36. Did he preach Old Testament or New Testament?

Old Testament - "Death" to fornicators/adulterers . . . the punishment fit the crime according to the bible then, right? Didn't he cheat on her?

[dogday]

37. Ministers can make the worst husbands

They try to impose their beliefs on their families.... They appear to everyone as a god-send but to the family they are monsters... This would not be the first time or the last that you will see this....

[stray cat]

38. The same reason others kill their spouse?

39. abuse

my wild guess is he was a control freak and she snapped.

[DanCa]

45. Fundies (of any stripe ) push people over the edge.

Maybe she couldn't take the holier than though crap? Maybe it was about roe v wade? Funny thing though is that I haven't heard much of this case. You would think that the RW loons would be all over it.

[mondo joe]

49. What makes you think he's more fundie than she is?

Anything?

[DanCa]

51. True

I am just going on gut instinct.

[LostinVA]

56. She probably is just as Fundie as he is

Especially since she has close family members who are pastiors... it's all she's known.

[EST]

48. The popularity of this thread goes a long way toward

justifying the warm stream media's fascination with similar themes.
For a peek inside a wigged out religio-fundie's head, re-murder and capital punishment, see: http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/punish.html

[QC]

50. Maybe she had a guy on the side. n/t

[LostinVA]

53. Not a minister's wife in a small town

EVERYBODY would know about it in about two seconds. I went to school with some Methodist minister's kids, and the whole family had zero privacy -- people calling and just coming over at all times of the day, thinking they had a right to question you about ANYTHING, noticing what you bought in the grocery store, etc. Plus, all the committees and social stuff she would have to do....

[QC]

67. Every small town I ever lived in was like Peyton Place.

Seemed like everyone in town was doing it with everyone else. There's nothing else to do.

[lukasahero]

55. When will we ask why husbands kill their wives?

There's a whole heap of speculation on this thread (and all the others on the same subject) and discourse over whether that speculation justifies a woman killing her husband.

Wives are killed at the hands of their husbands every day and no one seems to wonder why. I wonder.

The number one killer of pregnant women is their partner/spouse. (http://www.now.org/issues/violence/043003pregnant.html)

Why do we have thread after thread asking why/how a woman could possibly kill her husband and not a single thread asking why/how so many husbands could possibly kill their wives?

Just asking...

[LostinVA]

65. Yup...

[ecstatic]

66. thanks for the link. its definitely scary out here nt

[Kipling]

70. They all have different reasons: this is one case with one reason.

[The Straight Story]

68. To get him to the other side :) (nt)