Immigration 101 - Get A Clue

[sandnsea]

Bush supports a temporary guest worker program. Open the doors to immigrants to work for crap wages, then send them back home when you've used them all up. Google Tom Delay and the Mariana Island "petri dish".

Democrats support Earned Legalization. The 3 million on waiting lists now, those with legal families in the US first. Future workers will all need to prove they've paid taxes, haven't committed any crimes, know English, and some similar requirements to earn citizenship. Give them a future and a stake in this country, give them the ability to organize and demand labor standards, etc.

The Sensenbrenner bill pretends we can build a wall and lock up 11 million people, plus anybody who has ever given food or water to any of those 11 million people.

Whether it is you working as a nurse's aid, or your tech job insourced or outsourced, or undocumented workers, labor exploitation is the bottom line issue. Either we band together, ALL OF US AROUND THE WORLD, and fight for labor laws and environmental regulations and health care, or we ALL end up exploited.

It isn't NAFTA. It isn't illegals. It isn't the Indians. It isn't the H1B-Visas.

It is CORPORATISM.

Got it?

[Viva_La_Revolution]

1. sing it!

nailed.

:)

[SeattleGirl]

2. Got it! Great post!

:thumbsup:

[WilliamPitt]

3. Hammer meet nail.

K&R.

[Der Blaue Engel]

4. Bing! Go! n/t

[Rainscents]

5. Democrats should also add in the bill,

Criminalize Businesses and Corporation hiring illegal with hefty fines and they will lose licenses on 3rd strike, you're out!

I really do like demorats bill!

[sandnsea]

9. McCain-Kennedy does that

It also turns over business enforcement to the Dept of Labor instead of ICE, which was formerly INS who notoriously did a horrible job.

[Rainscents]

10. Good, thank you for the information!

[fasttense]

21. It does? Do you have a link sandnsea? n/t

[BrklynLiberal]

46. Self Delete/ in wrong place

[Syrinx]

6. my exact quote from today

"Bush doesn't care about those Mexican people. He just wants cheap labor for his corporate buddies."

[Virginian]

29. Rove wants their children to vote Republican.

A lot of this controversy is to put a meme in the minds of the young that it was the Republican president that kept their parents from being deported.

It doesn't have to be true to be believed. How do you fight a false perception?

[Iowa]

7. The best post I have seen on the subject. Bookmarked. K&R.

Thank you sandnsea!

[Crazy Guggenheim]

8. K&R.

[ConsAreLiars]

11. Well said!

Exactly right. "It is CORPORATISM." All that noise around this issue, but that is the bottom line, that it is the "bottom line" that draws people across borders.

[hunter]

12. We are all people wherever we are, wherever we come from.

ALL OF US AROUND THE WORLD.

[Starfury]

13. Exactly! Corporatism is at the root of nearly every problem we face -

Very few people realize the extent of corporatism or what kind of future it will lead to.

"When Corporations Rule the World" by David Korten was originally written about 10 years ago, but it seems even more relevant today. It describes the inevitable result of corporate libertarianism and how it came to be. I HIGHLY recommend it!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1887208046/sr=8-1/qid=1143536797/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-4408001-6128066

(It may very well be the scariest book I've ever read...)

:scared:

[fasttense]

14. How are you going to do this, when millions more illegals

cross the border? Ok you give the 11 to 20 million illegals already here a way to make themselves legal. It helps the economy and prevents corporations from abusing them.

But what do you do five years later when you have another 20 million illegals in the US? How can you develop a working immigration policy when you can't control who comes into the country?

Amnesty didn't work. By giving illegals "Earned Legalization" you have just told all those waiting that if they come into this country illegally, they can earn legal status as citizens.

If you can't control the rush at the border, how can you control immigration?

[JI7]

16. the illegals will refuse to put up with doing cheap labor

they know they can demand better. employers will not be able to exploit people. the reason there is so much illegal immigration is because people are so desperate and willing to do crappy work for horrible wages.

if everyone is allowed to demand better, corporations will not be able to exploit people.

this will affect not only the United States, but other nations. with conditions better in other places there will be less need for people to risk their lives to go into another country for crappy work and wages.

and as sandnsea pointed out. citizenship would not be automatic, there will be steps for it. but it does give hope and the chance to demand something better rather than a choice between "bad or worse".

[fasttense]

20. I understand what you are saying J17, but the

transition you make between better conditions here for legal immigrants and improved conditions in other countries doesn't follow. We have no immigration policy right now, it is a free for all. But I do not see other countries following in our footsteps and opening their borders. What makes you think improved conditions for newly minted immigrants will translate to the same thing happening in other countries?

[Joanne98]

17. it won't work like it didn't work in the 80's.....More will come

And wages will continue to fall. Housing will go up, public services will go bankrupt. Excatly what the Republicans want. Once again the Dems are either clueless or helping big business turn America into a fascist third world police state. If the Dems give ANYBODY amnesty, I'm WORKING AGAINST THEM IN THIS ELECTION!

[sandnsea]

19. You're voting against yourself

You don't stand up for workers, then you're voting against your own best interests. This is how Republicans divide the workers, over and over and over. If we had invested in energy technology like Clinton invested in internet technology, there'd be plenty of jobs and nobody would care about how many immigrants were here or how they got here.

[sandnsea]

18. That's why it's a labor exploitation problem

Whether we're exploiting undocumented workers here, or our corporations are exploiting them in other countries, it's all the same result. We have to stop thinking that the only solution is to "save our jobs" and instead, begin to confront the corporatism that fosters the whole cheap labor problem. They told us globalization was going to life people out of poverty and create economies for us to sell our products to. Well, in order for that to happen people in other countries have to earn enough money and have a standard of living that our products fit into. We either stop letting them exploit any labor anywhere; or accept a global plantation economy, the investor class and those who serve them.

[nonconformist]

15. Bingo. nt

[Swamp Rat]

22. Guest Worker Program = The New Slavery

[GeorgeGist]

23. Yup...

but thanks for the reminder.

[DemReadingDU]

24. Great post! K&R

[The Backlash Cometh]

25. It's a good post, but I have a question:

Would you approve the temporary guest worker program if they were protected from earning "crap" wages? I say this because sometimes I think that we Americans are a bit arrogant to assume that people prefer this culture, over their own.

[Virginian]

34. I think you have a point.

I wonder how many people, who have come to this country illegally, really want to become Americans. Are they sacrificing their native nationality for US citizenship just to be able to work legally in this country?

There has to be something between working illegally for "crap" wages and full citizenship. Does a "green" card imply that the worker has applied for citizenship? Can't people have permanent residence status without citizenship?


I have read some local LTTEs where assimilation is presented as a bad word. Isn't that part of becoming American -- assimilating into the population? Assimilation was important to my immigrant ancestors. They wanted to fit in. They wanted to become Americans. It is good to keep an ancestrial language for as many generations as possible; bilingual kids have a huge advantage. It is good to keep ancestrial customs and celebrations for as many generations as possible. That is part of what makes our nation different from any other. Assimilation doesn't prevent that, it expands it by teaching a culture to others who would not have otherwise known it.

I am not in a border state but I am in an area with a recent large influx of people from Central America, especially El Salvador. They are living in colonies and avoid interaction with other races and ethnicities. There is no sharing of cultures. I don't know how many are legal and how many are not -- it isn't painted on them anywhere visible. But one thing for sure is that there will be a "We vs. They" challenge until everyone becomes "We."

[The Backlash Cometh]

38. The problem with assimiliating in America.

I think the biggest untold story in assimilation in America is that there are many people who are suffering from an identity crisis as they make the transition from one culture to the next.

In broad terms you have ethnic groups and White America. Whatever is inbetween is not defined or organized enough for people to bond to, or to find support from. If any party created an all-inclusive concept of an American, it was the Liberal party. But then Republicans successfully managed to define the Liberal party as the party of disjointed minority groups. We became fractioned. People like me, stopped trying to look for the diverse American group to associate with. And I also stopped listening to my Republican relatives who tried to claim that they represented what an American is. If they represent what we are, then we are lost as a country.

Anyway, one goes through an identity crisis if they can't make the jump cleanly from one group to the next. And sometimes you THINK you have made the jump, only for someone to remind you of your ethnic roots. In my case, I experienced the usual run of the mill racist discrimination, mostly from strangers; but I also experienced discrimination of another kind. I really got confused when Republican relatives expressed that they never understood why I would defend hispanics because in their eyes, I WAS NOT HISPANIC. Yeah, I suffered an identity crisis over this one. I resolved it by going back to my roots and confirming to myself that I was of Hispanic descent (latina Americana y Chicana), I was proud of it and I would only be half a person if I rejected it. It is my base and where I draw my strength. But, it was a declaration I had to make within myself because I'm very aware that to immigrants, I am not an Hispanic, but an American. Yet, to white Americans who don't know me, they can't help but see my ethnic roots.

[hfojvt]

57. there seems to be an Us vs Them theme here

You seem to say that a hispanic is supposed to defend hispanics or that it is somehow strange for a non-hispanic to defend hispanics. I do not really get that. If everyone is thinking that way, or just your Republican relatives (in-laws? or dad's side or something?)
To some extent, I expect a person in my family to be a Schoephoerster (not my real name) first before they are either Irish, German, American or Hispanic.

[The Backlash Cometh]

59. Just the Republican relatives.

And then they wonder why I don't want to bond with them as family.

[Virginian]

63. I grew up in a small town of factory workers.

It seems like all the companies came in from the north to a right-to-work state at about the same time in the first two decades of the 20th century. The word was out around the world looking for workers to fill the jobs.
One of the companies was Dupont and they built this little planned community way back then. There was A village and B village and maybe a C village. I only knew of the B village because that part of the original plan had long since disintegrated.
People came from parts of the South and from parts of Europe looking for jobs in the mills and factories. The Greeks and Armenians and the Italians came to work in the factories. The Armenians and the Italians did not come in strengths to maintain a culture but the Greeks built their own church and held after school "Greek School" for their kids to make sure they retained their culture. The Greeks also assimilated and had friends outside of their own culture base. It was OK for a Greek to marry a non-Greek, but it was better to marry a Greek. My friend took me to her after school program a few times and I was totally accepted and welcome. The priest even sat with me and tried to teach me the alphabet as he would have done for a member of his congregation. The Greeks did not isolate themselves socially from the rest of the town, but rather became part of the social foundation. They assimilated and became a part of everything without losing their unique identity.

My grandfather came over at the same time, solo. He married a local girl, some of us inherited his coloring and features but nothing of his culture. I envied my friend for being bi-lingual, for being able to talk to her mother or cousins in public without everyone knowing what was said. She was never rude, she always told me what they were saying. I knew a few words, but never enough to follow a conversation. I think one of the reasons they were able to keep their culture intact for several generations was because they shared their culture with others.

[The Backlash Cometh]

64. I think this is the healthiest adaptation.

[roody]

71. Did they come because they wanted to live in the US

or because their community was ruined by violence and/or poverty?

[Virginian]

82. All the more reason to assimilate. Why do you think people left Europe?

To stay the same as what they left would only bring violence and/or poverty on them here.

Aren't these the same reasons people came to the US from Europe? Take Ireland for example. The early Irish immigrants assimilated, but even they discriminated against the potato famine Irish -- why -- because the second group clumped in the melting pot rather than blended. Both groups had Irish names, Irish traditions and Irish roots. Neither has ever lost their Irish heritage, but life was easier for the first group. I am not Irish (except on March 17,) so if I have it wrong, will an Irishman or historian please correct me.

Poverty is such a relative term. In some places it means not having a place to sleep. In others, it is a dirt floor. In our nation, it may mean being on welfare or not having the latest style in shoes.
But real poverty in our nation is with the illegals. They do not have the safety net of our welfare system or wage and labor laws. Unless they are innovative, they will always be poor. Is being poor here better than being poor there? As my great-aunt says, "We were poor, but we didn't know it before TV because there weren't any rich people living nearby."
Assimilation would allow for more contacts and possibilities for a larger variety of jobs.

The violence they left behind follows them here. Whether we want to face it or not, MS-13 is gaining a foothold in this country and infects mostly hispanic neighborhoods. Parents who assimilate have fewer children who join gangs because there is less contact with gang members and less peer pressure to join gangs.

[sandnsea]

42. No

Seriously, go read on the Mariana Islands. Don't forget sweatshops have been uncovered in this country in the last 10 years. A guest worker program will just be a use 'em up and spit 'em out system, the worse kind of exploitation imaginable. I don't think everybody would prefer this culture, but I do think there are enough people who would want to become citizens to fill any potential job gap.


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=mariana+%22petri+dish%22&btnG=Search

[Eurobabe]

26. Precisely, and Lou Dobbs had a guest on last week

that spoke about how we're getting shafted by big business. Outsource and insource, drive wages down for everyone.

[rman]

27. Actually NAFTA helps create conditions that contribute to illegal

immigration.

NAFTA to is a manifestation of corporatism. NAFTA rhetoric sounds nice, but it isn't the first time corporatists use deception to get their way (just look at the tax cuts).

The solution to excessive immigration of any kind does not lie in immigration legislation (though you need fair immigration legislation anyway).

Other than that, i agree with the points you raise.

[sandnsea]

43. Labor exploitation

NAFTA isn't the problem. Not insisting products we buy are made by workers with the same protections we have is the problem. Not caring about the environmental wreckage corporations are causing in other countries is the problem. When CocaCola uses up the drinking water in India, it doesn't matter where the coke is sold, it's a problem. We need to get passed the me me me aspect of these issues and see that we have to stand against this corporate exploitation, wherever it rears its ugly head. They're going to drive us all to the bottom of the pile if we don't stand up together.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rman]

49. For all i know

NAFTA has weakened workers protections in Mexico. And environmental protections. Etc.
NAFTA was not created by unions or citizens groups, it was created by the same large (US/transnational) corporations that benefit from it. Same ones that see unions and environmental protection as trade barriers.

Though of course the problem is much broader then NAFTA. I only mentioned it as an example.

[SaintLouisBlues]

28. My old Congressman, Dick Gephardt says: International Minimum Wage

http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/talking_politics/documents/02877045.htm

Gephardt’s call for an international minimum wage, on the other hand, has not received as much attention. But the proposal is almost as important to his political strategy. Under his plan, the World Trade Organization would institute a minimum wage among its member nations relative to the standard of living in each individual country. In theory, this would improve the standard of living in developing nations while also minimizing the wage disparity between the United States and other nations — which would, in turn, keep some industrialized labor in the US, a long-time Gephardt issue. "Having an international variable minimum wage is a new idea, and one that is consistent with the trade policy that I’ve put out there for 20 years," says the congressman, who opposed the North American Free Trade Agreement in 1993. "I think these are distinguishing ideas. And I think people will take a look at it."

[BlueEyedSon]

30. "Cheap Labor Conservatives" bringing back feudalism

[Minnesota Libra]

31. Lou Dobbs speaks on this issue constantly and has the..........

.......only truly fair approach that I've heard so far.

Basically Lou Dobbs believes we should close BOTH borders down tight, hiring more border guards, and then fine the crap out of anyone and everyone for hiring an illegal alien. He is even for confiscating property from those repeatedly hiring illegal aliens.

Hey, it works for me because so far it is the fairest thing I've heard from either party.

Yesterday I was accused of picking solely on Mexicans but PLEASE notice I have not narrowed my thoughts to any one country. Illegal aliens from one country is just as bad as illegal aliens from another country.

I am NOT anti-immigration by any means. I am ONLY against illegal aliens from anywhere.

[ProfessorGAC]

32. But, It's A REALLY Big Wall That "NoSensenbrenner" Wants

He thinks it will work because it's going to be really big! He's a moron. His constituents should be so proud that they sent that tool to D.C.
The Professor

[EFerrari]

35. It reminds me of that scene in "High Anxiety" where

they're trying to figure out how to keep the newspaper off the streets.

"We'll get a truck, a BIG TRUCK and LOTS OF QUARTERS."

[ProfessorGAC]

37. LOL!

Or in Jaws. "We're gonna need a bigger boat!"
The Professor

[Joe Fields]

33. Very good, very succinct post.

This is the issue. For people that still don't get it, corpoations rule, not only America, but the world.

[mike_c]

36. 100 percent right!

eom

[GrapesOfWrath]

39. Tell it sister...

K & R :kick:

[donkeyotay]

40. Focus, focus! Thanks sandnsea!

Ah yes. The slave labor in the Mariana Islands was the Evil Delay's perfect petri dish of capitalism, which he wanted to emulate here. I believe he also made some quip when he visited that he didn't see any sweat. May these rat bastards be placed in those locked barracks and made to work like this slave labor was. May the petri dish of justice grow robust enough to prosecute the whole crime family.

If they're not outsourcing, they're in-sourcing. Bottom line is they intend to make us all serfs.

[mzmolly]

41. Yep.

I got it.

[intheflow]

45. Right on, sandnsea.

You nailed it! K&R. :kick:

[BrklynLiberal]

47. Raising minimum wage to $12 wouldn't hurt either. Kick and recommend

[Catfight]

48. Great post, you answered a lot of my questions. Thanks nt

[NNN0LHI]

50. I got it n/t

[Horse with no Name]

51. Yep.

:thumbsup:
We have more in common with the workers who come here than we do with the folks that legislate this nonsense.
We have to help them and hope they help us in return.

[CanonRay]

52. Totally 100% On The Money

It's not about race, it's not about security, it's about cheap wages for corporations. Why do you think nurse's aides make minimum wage?

[EVDebs]

53. Paul Krugmans latest on immigration's uncomfortable facts

North of the border

mes.com/gst/tsc.html?URI=http://select.nytimes.com/2006/03/27/opinion/27krugman.html&OQ=_rQ3D1Q26nQ3DTopQ252fOpinionQ252fEditorialsQ2520andQ2520OpQ252dEdQ252fOpQ252dEdQ252fColumnistsQ252fPaulQ2520Krugman&OP=1ee6914aQ2FQ3Fv_fQ3FQ7DM0ppQ7DQ3F-eecQ3FeQ3BQ3F-.Q3FpFQ5E3Q5Ep3Q3F-.b0RdSQ7E3Q25)Q7DSi

[Buck Rabbit]

54. Okay teach I think I get it, but I have a couple of questions.

I absolutely agree that employers should be heavily penalized. I hate as a business owner having to compete against slave labor.

Now here are my questions:

1) You crack down hard on employers, what do you do with illegals now unable to find work? Deport, put in government housing, wait until they steal for survival and put them in jails? Offer free transportation back home?

Most business people who hire a few illegals won't take that chance if faced with truly severe and enforced penalties.

2) What do you do about private individuals (landscaping, housekeeping, day-care), small farms, and small construction subcontractors that hire illegals at exploitive wages? They are virtually impossible to catch. Ignore this segment? I have heard this is a huge segment of the employers of illegals, but I am not sure about that as I an just a 101 level student at this point.

[sandnsea]

55. They won't come if there are no jobs

To any sane individual, the economic lessons of Iraq and Katrina are clear. Trickle down corporatism doesn't work. If we were infusing money from the bottom up, setting wage regulations and all the rest, then the living standards would prime the pump to a growing economy. As it applies to illegal immigrants, people wouldn't need to come here.

And if we made it a social stigma to hire illegal workers, that would stop the private person as well. We're such a bunch of hypocrites, bitch about them being here and being a burden to our social system, then turn around and exploit them and leave them with no other option but to be a burden to our social system. We have to start calling people on that bullshit.

[Buck Rabbit]

60. Your second point is going to be a tough one.

Making it a social stigma. First Republican and Libertarian free marketers won't buy into it being a stigma as long as they can get their lawn cut cheaper and the person was paid the agreed to price, exploitive or not. Social stigma keeps me away from Wall-mart but obviously not many other people.

Secondly, when you are a private individual hiring someone to perform contract labor for you as a non employer you have no way of knowing if you have hired an illegal immigrant, a legal immigrant or a five generation citizen. They don't have to fill out an I9 form if you hire someone to install new gutters. Asking every latino service contractor whether they are legal or not doesn't seem practical and a bit racist to boot.

Have I ever knowingly hired an illegal? Nope and I wouldn't either but I have had my suspicions about some of the laborers of licensed construction contractors I have hired on work I have done on my house. My bet is they are paid cash, per day by the contractor with no records, making undercover stings the only way to catch the cheating employer. The contractor often with no permanent employees will tell you he can't compete without doing it, if he were to admit to the practice at all.

[sandnsea]

62. I could make excuses for them, but I won't

I'm just that kind of bitchy person that tells people to their face that they're hypocrites and I don't care who they are. More people need to do that. There isn't anybody more attuned to what the neighbors think than stick up the ass Republicans. If it becomes socially unacceptable to hire undocumented workers, they won't do it. And the reason it would become socially unacceptable is because they're a burden on the social service system, not because they're being exploited. You just have to think like they do.

I know it isn't easy to guarantee every worker has legal documents, but we don't even try. There will never be 100% effectiveness, but we can all become more responsible.

[DanCa]

56. In every day in every way I hate the chimp a little more.

The guys evil thru and thru and who will get blamed? It will be the Democrats. I can't stand the man monkey. Chimps belong in zoos and not the oval office.

[DrGonzoLives]

58. Hear, Hear

Does anyone really think that Republicans are supporting this out of the goodness of their hearts? No, they know who keeps their campaign coffers stuffed.

[bloom]

61. yep

:kick:

[kid a]

65. Thank You!!! nt

[stickdog]

66. If we need to build fences, let's build them first to keep IN

our good jobs, and only then to keep out the our most desperate neighbors.

[uppityperson]

67. Exactly. Liveable wages for world citizens.

We all need to work together against the corporatism! Well put.

[WillyT]

68. With A Visible Dose Of Fascism !!!

<snip>

Fascism is associated by many scholars with one or more of the following characteristics: a very high degree of nationalism, economic corporatism, a powerful, dictatorial leader who portrays the nation, state or collective as superior to the individuals or groups composing it.

<snip>

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

:nuke:

[bvar22]

69. Well Stated!!!

:patriot:
In EVERY case, "Barriers to Trade" and "Restrictions on Corporations" were created to protect something valuable!

The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[nicknameless]

70. Another point that doesn't get discussed. Fox likes the status quo

because of the $$$ that ends up being sent back to Mexico, not reinvested in the US.

[AuntiBush]

72. Got it!

You're right. It is CORPORATISM alright.

Learned a lot watching over three million march in the last several days. Hope others did as well.

[Minnesota Libra]

73. I simply don't understand the reasoning of some of this........

.....why should we..... "Give them a future and a stake in this country, give them the ability to organize and demand labor standards, etc."

Illegal aliens are here ILLEGALLY - it doesn't matter what they want - who hires them, who rents/sells to them, they are here illegally.

this is what they think of Americans

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=7324

[nicknameless]

74. That article was REALLY something.

It was so extreme that found myself looking for Fox advertisements as a way to check whether or not it was legit.
It really was an amazing read. How many Americans know that's the attitude and the law down there? Thanks for posting it.

Wow.

[Minnesota Libra]

80. Of course it can't be taken seriously, the article doesn't........

.....meet with what everyone wants to hear.:wtf:

[nicknameless]

81. Hmmm -- Where did that article go?

[fearnobush]

75. Temporary guest worker programs have led to massive riots in France.

Do we really want that to happen here? Remember all those cats burning in France last fall? Most if not all were immigrants.

[memory]

76. very well said!

Thank you for putting into words what I couln't! A very divisive and complicated issue....

[Usrename]

77. economic injustice

I'm with you about this. Count me as on your side.

[fujiyama]

78. I have had my disagreements with you in the past

but on this you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

[KyndCulture]

79. that was brilliant!!!!! another K&R