Conflicted about illegal immigration

[LuckyTheDog]

Below are seven points. As you will see, I am all over the map on this. But I suspect others here feel the same way.

1) As a person who believes in the rule of law, I think it is bad news for America if we don't start enforcing our immigration laws... even if it means changing them to be more realistic.

2) I DO think it is unfair that some people "cut in line" to get into the U.S. ahead of legal immigrants.

3) I think legal immigration is now and always has been great for America. I think we need more of it, not less.

4) Do I blame an impoverished Mexican for doing what he/she has to do in order to survive? Not really. I might do the same in his/her case.

5) Some of the hardest-working, most decent people I have ever met have been immigrants - legal and "otherwise."

6) Do I think illegal immigrants tend to drive down wages for unskilled and marginally skilled workers in the U.S.? Yes, I do. Simple supply and demand.

7) Illegal immigration isn't such a great deal for the undocumented workers, either. It leads to some horrible exploitation that puts the undocumented folks and their kids at risk. We have to deal with that, too.

[XemaSab]

1. You forgot point 8:

We need someone willing to pick our fruit in the Central Valley of California when it's 100 degrees for cheap wages.

Other than that, it looks like a good list of points.

[LuckyTheDog]

3. We do and we don't

I can't help thinking that, in the absence of cheap labor, good old American ingenuity would lead to more automation and/or other kinds of more efficient harvesting methods -- out of necessity.

Of course, it also might lead to higher prices for fruit, at least in the short to medium run. But, with that could come higher wages for farm workers.

[TygrBright]

4. Heh. If we "need" the fruit picked....

...we should be able to pay the REAL cost of getting it picked.

Supply & demand, fair market rates, unfettered capitalism, blah-blah-blah....

In a REAL capitalist system, the employers wouldn't need to rely on the government to facilitate the importation of slave labor, would they?

cynically,
Bright

[XemaSab]

9. Don't you think an increase in the price of vegetables and fruit

would hurt the poor disproportionally? :shrug:

[mondo joe]

5. No. If we NEED it we can PAY for it. n/t

[XemaSab]

10. See post #9

[mondo joe]

11. Everything hurts the poor disproportionately.

But if you increase the lowest wages it improves wages across the board.

[XemaSab]

12. I'm not sure how that works

I'm not sure how raising the wage of a tomato picker helps the wages of a Wal-Mart employee. :shrug:

Also, if the wages were better, wouldn't that drive even more illegal immigration? :shrug:

[mondo joe]

13. When the poor earn more they spend more.

And where do you think they're going to shop?

Would it drive more illegal immigration? You bet. That's why you need to impose serious penalties for hiring illegals.

[XemaSab]

15. They're going to send the extra money

Straight back to the folks in Mexico.

I agree with the rationale for raising the minimum wage for US citizens, but not for raising the wages for illegal and/or "guest" fruit and vegetable pickers. I think that could just amplify the problem.

And if you increase the penalties on farmers who hire illegals, that would also raise the cost of fruits and veggies because it would be part of the cost of doing business.

I am very protectionist towards California agriculture in part because I don't want to see ag lands lost to development. It's the biggest sector of our economy, and we need to keep it strong.

[mondo joe]

16. Who said they'll be Mexican?

I don't know where you got that. Right now illegal Mexicans hold those jobs because the employers can get away with it. If they can't, the working population changes.

And yes, it would increase the cost of produce. We went over that already.

[XemaSab]

19. Every time I've been past a field of workers

they all look like Mexicans or Central Americans to me. :shrug:

And frankly, having worked in the next field over for 15 dollars an hour, I don't know how much you would have to pay to make it worthwhile for English-speakers to do. Working in the sun in 100 degree weather is really really bogus work.

I think the status quo has a lot to be said for it. The workers are happy, the farmers are happy, and the consumers are happy. :shrug:

[mondo joe]

20. You need to break the vicious cycle in your mind.

Farms hire illegals because illegals work for less. Illegals work for less because that's what they have to do to get the work.

When employers can't pay illegals substandard wages, the working population will diversify.

I don't know that all those groups are happy. Doing what they feel they have to OR can get away with, yes.

[XemaSab]

25. I think there are likely to be ugly, unforseen repurcussions

to a major change in the system.

I live in California and I worry that a big change would have the effect of higher food prices, increased urban sprawl, increased illegal immigration, or some other effect that could further destroy the Central Valley.

[mondo joe]

26. Maybe. Life is change. We'll evolve. n/t

[madeline_con]

2. I think the WH is blowing smoke up our collective ass.

The increase in violence in Iraq indicates that the ruthlessness being required of our troops is increasing.

There is a major push to kill those who make trouble for the occupation ASAP, and cause as much psychological damage as possible on the rest. Then, DUH-bya can start to talk about a pull out.

This immigration thing is a diversion while towns are "cleansed" of undesireables in Iraq. :(

Maybe there isn't enough of a response to the homophobic hysteria, so they needed a new plank for the platform.

[LuckyTheDog]

6. It IS a diversion in one sense

It is a diversion in the sense that they are bring it up NOW because they see it as a wedge issue. And it certainly is. I mean, hey, we've had this problem for eons, so why is it an emergency all of a sudden, eh? I think we both know the answer to that -- you stated it.

But, illegal immigration also is a real issue that cries out for policy ideas from progressives.

[silverlib]

7. Great post - thanks

I'm all over the place on this, too. NAFTA is IMO the worst thing Clinton brought us. It helped Mexico short term, but then the corp. started moving to countries with even cheaper labor. I want our borders protected, but I do not want them closed and I don't want a wall - it took years to tear down the one in Berlin. Immigrants are an inherent part of our history and are an important and contributing part of our society. We need to stop exploiting them. I want the corporations to pay fair wages. I want a single payer health system, national health insurance or anything that will get the insurance out of corporate hands and off their plates. I don't understand why corporations are screaming for this, too. If wages are fair for all, including the immigrants, legal or illegal, then the playing field will be leveled. The bottom line then must be that our government, which is no longer we the people, does not want a level playing field. It's a hard sell either way. Capitalism has trumped democracy.

Thanks again.

[ginnyinWI]

8. my four points

1. more legal immigration and legal hiring.
2. prosecute employers for hiring illegals.
3. support decent wages for all--and unions if needed.
4. pass legislation for those already here to become legal (Kennedy's proposal)
5. Expedite immigrants' becoming full citizens--so that they can vote.

The only ones who lose are the employers--who will have to start paying fair wages.

[countmyvote4real]

14. Thanks for your post. I'm too disgusted by the illegal war to

even begin to get my head around this new wedge issue. As far as connecting tissue, I've seen stories of immigrants signing up for military duty with a tenuous promise of full citizenship. That kind of service kind of changes the stakes for me and I think that citizenship should be guaranteed for military service. (Although, it seems a pretty extreme price to pay under the * administration.)

There are times when I would like to immigrate to a more enlightened country as the bloom on our country's rose seems to be overcome by a blight that will not go away.

[LuckyLib]

17. I'm with ya on that one. We're thinking of leaving too. There are

more people than you can imagine who are disgusted with this country, and are looking at living abroad. Since many companies are (and will be) abandoning their retirement obligations, folks are figuring out they have been SCREWED royally. 30 years of contributions and you'll be lucky to have a portion of what you had. Sheer economics will make many Americans take a look at expanding their horizons. We are.

[cynatnite]

18. Here's the story of one young man...

SEATTLE - Pfc. Juan Escalante, who joined the Army and fought in Iraq after showing a fake green card he bought for $50, will be allowed to remain in the United States.

http://www.komotv.com/news/printstory.asp?id=29750

I'm really torn about this. While I think it's a good idea, I'm not sure if they should have to fight in this war for citizenship. But what can anyone say if someone is willing to lay their life on the line like this in order to become legal. :shrug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

22. Someone posted a picture here not long ago

of a man holding a sign at a rally (I think it was in Chicago?) that said "MY IMMIGRANT SON DIED IN IRAQ"

[TahitiNut]

21. What's your opinion of 'scabs'?

By that, I mean people who take jobs offered by companies who are under strike by a union and are attempting to 'bust' the union.

[flordehinojos]

23. is it a crime for corporations to go to mexico and pay them 40cents an hr.

there?

They are being exploited by our great american corporate people there and here. is there any justice?

No Justice. No Peace!

[Neil Lisst]

24. thank you for your seven well-presented points

I agree with all seven.

[thatsrightimirish]

27. I agree

I think that no one is above the law but being realistic if we arrest all these people there will be a fugitive class in this country. And I do believe we will lose a lot of productivity because I really do think a lot of Americans won't want to do those jobs and businesses will suffer. Then again I don't really get the protesters point by saying that illegal immigrants should not be arrested for being illegal. Sorry but they are! Confused? Me too!

[Lexingtonian]

28. having to deal with all this stuff personally

and more than enough dealings with INS, DoJ, and immigation lawyers, my view is different.

Points 3-7 are pretty obvious.

Your point 2: in fact, INS works by a yearly quota system according to nationality. The yearly quota applied to my Western European relatives hasn't been filled in over 50 years if ever. The quotas for Central American and Asian countries are always filled. Huge backlogs fill up for applicants from those countries, and when the backlogs get embarrassingly large and bad publicity happens, Congress quietly lifts the quotas for a time. This "cutting in line" stuff is silly- the system is kept intentionally inefficient, creating "lines". How immoral is it to game a system that is deliberately rigged against people like you and not others?

Your point 1: you may want to have a look at these laws you so piously say people should obey. In my experience the laws are intentionally ambiguous, partially internally contradictory, very unevenly and highly politically enforced. There are loopholes that immigration lawyers will reveal to you and get you through if the price is right. If you have the money for some expensive, well-connected, American immigration lawyers- i.e. you're willing to pay $40-$50 K- you can get almost anyone in. (Nazi camp guards and SS excluded.) If you don't have the money, the system is ponderous and Kafkaesque. In my experience INS case workers tend to be either brutally intimidated liberals who feel degraded by what their jobs make them do or callous-to-hateful senseless Republicans who think they're in charge of handing out Harvard diplomas.

At bottom immigration is all about economics/classism and ethnicity/racism. My relatives are white and sound very educated on paper, some are blonde and blue-eyed. INS people smile at them and don't ask hard questions, and their applications are seeming always approved within a few weeks,. My Latino and Caribbean friends get absurd and impossible questions, their interviewers are always hardassed and negative, it takes them four and six months to get replies for simplest stuff, and the outcome is a crap shoot. Approving stuff for nice white Europeans entails no risks for low and midlevel INS people. Making life too easy for brown-skinned people is disapproved of by upper tiers,

It's not the laws that are really the problem. You can't write entirely adequate ones. It's the spirit of the enforcement, a fair balance of justice and mercy, that is everything. But under the present regime, justice and mercy are in exceedingly short supply in this stuff as in all others.

[radfringe]

29. I'm in the "same boat" (so to speak)

both sets of my grandparents immigrated here after WW-1. But they came legally, followed the rules, learned the language once they were here, found jobs and built a life for themselves they would probably never had if they stayed in Germany/Italy

why did they come? opportunity for a better life

why are people crossing the border illegally? Opportunity.

Ross Perot spoke of a "giant sucking sound" regarding NAFTA. And yep, corporations ran down to Mexico (and elsewhere) built manufacturing plants, hired the locals. So you could argue there are jobs "there". So why do we still have people flooding across the border? the "jobs there" don't pay much, and even the "jobs Americans won't do" pay more than those back there.

so it's the OPPORTUNITY that is bringing them here.

(excuse the Rumsfeldian style of rhetoric)

do I blame them? nope.

do I like the idea of them crossing illegally? nope.

do I have any idea as to how to address the problem? Nope