A message to the people opposing illegal immigration

[RagingInMiami]

Federal law or no federal law. Border fence or no border fence. Minutemen or no minutemen. There is nothing that can be done to stop the flood of Mexicans from entering this country.

They will continue entering this country even though they know they will be exploited; even though they might end up dying in the scorching desert; even though they know they fill face racism and deportation.

After all, it’s only evolution. Survival of the fittest. The latest example of global migration, which has been happening throughout the world since the beginning of mankind.

As humans, we are nomadic people. We are restless. And we are survivors.

If that weren’t the case, we would still be living in Africa with dark skin and kinky hair while the rest of the earth’s land masses remained vacant.

But migration began immediately after the first humans evolved in Africa. At first, they spread though the continent. Then they dispersed to what became India and Australia. And then they moved into Europe and Asia.

And over the years, the people created their own civilizations, taking on physical characteristics that made them more adaptable to their geographic location. The humans that settled in Asia ventured up to Siberia, trekked across the Bering Strait and down through North and South America. They became various tribes and civilizations, including the Aztecs and the Mayans, who later became the Mexicans.

It is no coincidence that Native Americans share physical features and language similarities with the Asians.

And the migration continued over the years as civilizations survived and died, learning from one another, killing one another, mating with one other.

The Celts became the Irish, the Scotch and the Welsh. The Moors invaded Spain, giving the Spanish their dark hair and eyes, making their woman exotically beautiful.

And the English, Dutch, Spanish, French, Germans and Scandinavians migrated to the United States, each of them leaving their mark and influence while being influenced by the other.

I’ve always thought that the beauty of this country was how we became Americans but retained bits and pieces of our own ancestors. Because of the French/Italian/African influence of New Orleans, it was always one of my favorite cities.

I remember being amazed ten years ago as I sat in a Dublin pub listening to “traditional Irish music.” To me, it sounded like bluegrass music. I later found out that it was the Scotch-Irish who settled in the Appalachian Valley, birth of bluegrass music.

Down here in Miami, we have the Cuban influence. Most of the Cubans came from Galicia, Spain, which had been settled years ago by the Celts. In other words, the Cubans and the Irish are distant cousins. No wonder the Cubans are so crazy.

The Cuban sandwich is a staple down here. Like the taco in the Southwest, which itself is a holdover from the Aztecs. But the Cuban sandwich, a simple concoction of ham, pork and Swiss on Cuban bread, is derived from similar sandwiches in Spain.

But if you drive up to Tampa, which is where the Cubans originally settled decades before Castro, you will notice a distinct difference in the Cuban sandwiches. In addition to the ham, pork and cheese, they put salami in the sandwiches.

After all, Tampa had an Italian settlement around the time the Cubans settled there in the early 1900s.

So if you believe this current crop of Mexican immigrants is going to drastically change the country, then you’re not following history. The Mexicans will eventually become Americans. They will lose most of their language. And they will lose most of their tradition and culture.

But they will also acquire new customs and traditions from their neighbors and co-workers while passing on the pieces of their own culture they retained.

If that didn’t happen, then we would all still be speaking the languages of our ancestors, whether it be Swahili, Yiddish, French, Italian or Old English.

So my advice is to accept it. To embrace it. To cherish the experience of discovering the differences and similarities between the cultures.

But if you’re unable to do that because of xenophobia or fear that you’ll be in direct competition with them for work, I suggest you either move to another part of the country where you can be with your own people, or improve your working skills so you won’t feel threatened by a non-English speaking Mexican.

After all, evolution should always take its natural course.

[BrklynLiberal]

1. Someday people will be complaining about the aliens from another

solar system coming to this planet and stealing jobs that earthlings should be getting.

[RagingInMiami]

2. Well that's where I draw the line

Unless I end up sexually attracted to them.

[Cleita]

7. Remember the series "Alien Planet" with the melon heads?

It was cleverly done with the space aliens having the same problems as human immigrants. They had to take the worst jobs and live in slums. They tried to become middle class against much bigotry. Of course they really stood for all immigrant underclasses that went before them.

[BrklynLiberal]

8. Yes. Exactly

[-..__...]

14. Did you mean to post "Alien Nation"?

http://www.tv.com/alien-nation/show/1792/summary.html



Damn slags...

[Cleita]

17. Yes, I did.

Must have had a senior memory thing here. LOL

[BrklynLiberal]

19. That is what I read it as. It was a great movie before it was series.

James Caan and Mandy Patinkin

[Greylyn58]

33. I think you mean "Alien Nation"

I happened to like that show and the movie it was based on.

[DanCa]

76. Kinda like Superman working at the Daily Planet?

You know it strikes me kind of funny that Americas greatest hero is an illegal alien.

[madeline_con]

3. Why are you assuming Mexicans are non-English speaking?

[RagingInMiami]

5. Most of the illegal immigrants I encounted when living in the SW

for seven years, where I was a journalist and reported heavily on the subject, could not speak English.

I don't assume. I base my statements on experiences.

[ginnyinWI]

4. agree

As long as there is a huge disparity of wealth between the U.S. and Mexico, it will continue, no matter what.

Lou Dobbs says we are spending billions on healthcare and education for illegals and their kids. Ok, then why don't we give some aid to Mexico and help them get some jobs created, and try to equalize the opportunities between our two countries? I'm sure Mexicans would rather stay near family and friends if they could also work at home.

Second, I'd crack down on corporations that hire illegals. No job, no illegal immigration. But at the same time, I'd liberalize immigration laws so that more people could come here legally. Let them form or join unions, and start getting decent wages--and let the unions rise in importance as a voting block again. Let them also become citizens, pay taxes and vote! Bush doesn't want that--he wants "guest workers" who can't vote--cause they'd probably vote Dem! I say make them full citizens.

[QC]

6. "give some aid to Mexico"

Mexico is a very wealthy country, but almost all of its wealth is concentrated in the hands of a very small, corrupt oligarchy. That's the problem.

[neoblues]

12. In the U.S., One Percent owned 90% of the Wealth... (1992)

So we don't have much room to speak on other's country's wealth gaps. That statistic is excluding the relatively static capital of home ownership and refers just to businesses, money etc. (AND that was waaay back in 1992--it's considerably worse now!) http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/inequal/2003/0801gap.htm

[QC]

13. Yes, I am aware that wealth is highly concentrated here.

I've been complaining about it since the Reagan days. But my point is that aid to Mexico would end up in the hands of the oligarchy, and, of course, if it were not for that oligarchy, there would be no need for aid from anyone. After all, we're talking about a country with enormous natural resources and a great workforce.

[neoblues]

46. I didn't mean to infer you weren't aware...

and I agree with you, sending money to Mexico would indeed merely line the pockets of their own 'elite'. There are no easy answers and, alas, this tendency to develop defacto 'Aristocracies' appears deeply ingrained in human nature (just another consequence of greed). Even in these "modern" times, pretend to be educated and/or 'civilized' all we want, we still haven't conquered or effectively regulated much of our animal natures.

[Marie26]

80. When Mexico finally kicks out

it's capitalist gov., like other Latin American countries have done, then that wealth can be re-distributed to the people.

[ginnyinWI]

15. well if that's the case,

then the second part of my post should apply more: more legal immigration, stronger unions, and don't allow companies to hire illegals.

[BrklynLiberal]

9. Several excellent ideas there. And you are right, the last thing Bush

would want is to have all the immigrants joining unions and getting decent pay, and being able to vote!!!!

[Mr.Green93]

10. And they will all vote Democratic forever

The other party is finished.

[RagingInMiami]

11. Unfortunately, many dems don't see that

[ScreamingMeemie]

16. One would hope...but I don't see that as being the case at all.

One would think all gays, blacks, women would vote Democratic, but they don't. I am not against immigration in any way but I am not obtuse either.

[-..__...]

18. You've been watching too much of the Discovery and History Channel.

:eyes:

[WilliamPitt]

21. Yup. People teleported from Odulvai Gorge to Siberia

and then across the Bering Strait. It was awesome.

[-..__...]

25. Too much Sci-Fi channel.

"Damn it Jim... I'm a doctor not a writer".

[WilliamPitt]

26. Yeah

Too much evolution taught in schools and stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olduvai_Gorge

[-..__...]

27. I was turned into a newt.

Go to bed, Will.

These exchanges are getting tiresome.

[Bridget Burke]

60. Newt Gingrich?

You're dealing with The Crew That Never Rests.

[QC]

22. Oh come now--sandwiches are an *excellent* argument

for adopting particular immigration policies!

[RagingInMiami]

23. I haven't watched TV in more than two years

[musical_soul]

20. I remember in High School....

I asked myself whether I wanted to take Spanish or French. I knew Spanish was more practical. I didn't ask myself if it was moral for immigrants to come across here or if it was legal. I asked myself "Is that's what's going on?".

People need to think like that.

[MikeNY]

24. Actually..

The difference between us and our savage ancestors is that we are not nomadic... the situation in Mexico just sucks for these people, plain and simple. It seems to be a major pain in the ass to get into this country legally. But it seems like you can't even get in from Europe, if you have a computer science degree, according to Bill Gates, who has been lobbying Congress to pass immigration reform. So what the hell is going on in this country... the truth is economically its more sensible for us to let these people in off the books and work some menial task. Just as the Romans and every other empire has done in the past; exploit the poor to keep the war machine going

[RagingInMiami]

28. There is no difference

We are still nomadic. We will always be nomadic. Just because we have modern luxuries doesn't mean we are not possessed by the same genes as our ancestors.

Do you still live in your place of birth? If so, do all your friends you grew up with live in the same neighborhood? Have you ever moved for a job?

How many seniors have moved from the NE USA to the SE or SW USA after retirement, specifically Florida and Arizona?

The Cubans moving to Miami is another example. The white Americans who left Miami to move north to escape the Cuban influx is another example.

In the early part of the century, thousands of southern Blacks moved to big cities, especially detroit, looking for work. Then there was White Flight from the downtown areas to the suburbs. Now the trend is moving back to the suburbs because traffic sucks in most big cities.

How many people move from the rural midwest out to California each year in pursuit of stardom, happiness, excitement?

How many Californians have moved to Arizona, Nevada and Idaho in recent years to escape spiraling cost-of-living expenses?

To escape illegal immigration?

Global migration never stops. It just takes different patterns and paths and has different motives. Sometimes it is forced, either by war, famine, drought or economics, as in the case of the Mexicans.

Or sometimes it is voluntary. As in my case, where I spent ten years roaming Europe and living the Southwest, only to return to Miami.

Here is an interesting link, if you're interested.


http://www.pstalker.com/migration/index.htm

[CanonRay]

29. The problem with illegals is wages!

My biggest gripe with illegal immigration is that they accept sub-standard wages; wages that Americans cannot live on in our economy. They know they are here temporarily, so they are willing to accept sub-standard living conditions at a cost they can afford and still send money home to Mexico. That is why construction companies can hire illegals for $6 an hour. It's not that they take jobs no American wants, it that they take jobs no American wants at the wages corporations want to pay. If you could get $15 an hour plus medical insurance for cleaning hotel rooms, would you do it? Sure. But not for $4 an hour and no benefits. The illigal immigrant cannot complain, and won't. Their being here lowers ALL our standards of living.

[Kansas Wyatt]

30. There is a disconnect for some

On exactly how illegal workers are used to depress wages in a blue collar job field. In the last few months, it has gone from, they are needed for agriculture jobs to republican Senators saying they are needed for construction jobs. Because republican donating developers and builders only want to pay $5 / hour and treat them like shit.

No American construction worker can survive on $5 / hour an hour, and American construction workers do want the jobs. For a fair wage. So the American construction worker is driven away from his job field by cheap illegal workers depressing wages. Yet, some Democrats think it is more important that an illegal worker should be allowed to undercut and ruin an employment field for John Q. Citizen. Then they wonder why John Q. Citizen votes against his best interests, when he sees how the Democrat stands up for the working class and republicans trick him into voting republican.

[sandnsea]

57. Who told you this shit???

Who said Democrats support undercutting wages??? Talk about being tricked by Republican bullshit. Please list the facts and thinking process involved, because I don't get how anybody is coming to these conclusions.

[Kansas Wyatt]

59. Do some Democrats support granting illegal immigrant workers

Legal status to remain in the country or citizenship?

How about Democrats really not caring if illegal workers are working in construction, because they need to support their families too?

I HAVE NOT BEEN TRICKED BY REPUBLICAN BULLSHIT! Unlike SOME Democrats, I do see exactly how Republicans are able to pick off working class votes from Democrats. Especially when Democrats put illegal workers above the blue collar citizen.

Obviously, there are some Democrats who really not give a shit about the American construction worker, because they cannot get enough of advocating for ILLEGAL immigrant workers being allowed to work construction jobs in this country. That also goes for any blue collar job field that working Americans have been forced out of, due to a sudden abundance of cheap ILLEGAL workers willing to work for a lot less and under worse conditions, that the American worker cannot afford to compete with. Because their wages have been UNDERCUT.

Is that what you mean by, 'list the facts and thinking process involved?' To think that the abundance illegal workers are not undercutting the wages for blue collar citizens and decimating their job prospects and economic security, is the quickest way to LOSE working class votes to the Republican rhetoric.

Again, some Democrats wonder why working people vote against their "best interest." Maybe they cannot see the elephant behind the donkey's ass in their face.

[sadiesworld]

63. LOL

"Maybe they cannot see the elephant behind the donkey's ass in their face".

:thumbsup:

[sandnsea]

78. Blather

You didn't list one quote or piece of legislation to back up your claim.

Nobody is advocating illegal workers remain in the country and undercut legal workers. Well, except for Republicans who use illegals to bust unions and undercut labor laws.

Nobody is advocating legal workers work for substandard wages. Well, except Republicans who have never supported an increase in minimum wage or any other measure that supports workers.

Democrats want to turn enforcement of labor laws over to the Dept of Labor, where it belongs. They want to double the number of border patrol. They want all workers in the US to be legal so that they can report violations and stand up for themselves and their fellow workers.

Republicans want to allow more more more foreign workers into the country. That's what the Bush version of the guest worker program does. Opens the doors to tons of workers and the minute they start to get their feet under them a bit and learn to advocate for themselves, boom, send them back home and bring in a new batch to exploit.

There is a huge difference between the two strategies. You have allowed yourself to be duped and have only heard the word "amnesty" and that isn't what anybody is suggesting. You've got an elephant's ass blocking the donkey's face and the sad thing is, you chose to put it there.

[Kansas Wyatt]

82. I never allowed myself to be duped by anyone.

From the beginning of you posting to me, I have been concerned about seeing Democrats suggesting that illegal workers, who have broken laws and probably have committed identity fraud and theft, should be allowed to continue working here and even eventually get legal status. It boils down to how blue collar workers see it. I have also said that it is the Republicans and their donating employers are the ones who want many illegals here, which does undercut wages and decimates blue collar job prospects.

I have tried to explain to you that blue collar John Q. Citizen will see the Republicans talk tough on illegals, while Democrats will refuse to look at how millions of illegal workers are undercutting and destroying John Q. Citizen's wages and employment prospects. The very same employment being done by illegals that his father and grandfather supported and raised their families on. The Republicans and their donating employers are the ones responsible for all of it, to depress wages on the blue collar worker and make him compete for slave wages and conditions that this country hasn't seen for years. In the end, John Q. Citizen will only hear Democrats saying that this country cannot just throw all of those illegals out of work, who have moved in and taken over jobs for cheap wages from American blue collar workers.

Where are the cries from the Democrats to fine the hell out of anyone who hires illegal workers? Silence, because republicans have moved from agriculture jobs to getting the democrats talking about other jobs Americans allegedly won't do, like construction. We all know what Bush and his republicans want, the problem is, where in the hell are the Democrats standing up for the American Blue Collar Worker against illegal workers undercutting his wages and taking over his work, so he can provide a living for himself and family, like his father did and his father did? We have had laws on the books already to deal with illegal workers, but they are only as good as they get enforced. When did the Democrats raise hell about the number of illegal workers flooding into the country, just to protect working class people?

The only thing John Q. Citizen will see is that some Democrats want to represent illegals more than they want to represent working class citizens. I have not been saying the Democrats are just as bad as the republicans, I have only been saying how all of this will turn out when the Democrats fail to take a hard stand against how illegals got here and WHO is bringing them here. Because Democrats will take working class votes for granted and try to be the savior to the illegals as well, and they will get some of votes peeled off by the republican trickster rhetoric, again.

The sad thing on this issue is that the donkey's ass is in the blue collar worker's face, and all he experiences is the smell of gas, while the elephant's tail swathes fresh air for the donkey. Again, there is a definite reason why working class votes continue to be taken away from the Democrats, and the reason is very clear on this issue. Since you think it is "Blather," don't respond to it and just keep wondering why working people vote against their best interest.

[sandnsea]

83. Fining business? Punishing illegals? Republicans tough?

I agree with your premise. What I object to is that you clearly don't know what the parties stand for. The McCain-Kennedy Bill DOES provide for tougher penalties and turning enforcement over to the Dept of Labor so it becomes a true business penalty. The legalization process also calls for fining illegals. Why don't you know this?

Republicans tough on illegals? Bush wants a revolving-door immigration plan, let them in, use them up, send them home. It would be a horrible plan, all the way around.

So yeah, you define the problem with the blue collar worker and I agree completely. But you've got the immigration plans completely screwed up and have confused a couple of right wing lunatics with the corporate Republicans that are in control. Why? Where did you get your idea that Republicans are tough on immigration???

[Kansas Wyatt]

84. Republicans are NOT tough on immigration

THAT IS HOW THEY WILL SELL IT TO THE VOTERS! UNDERSTAND NOW!

Meanwhile Democrats will come across as wanting to give illegals amnesty, and blue collar workers have fucking had it with Democrats not looking out for them. I haven't got a fucking thing screwed up, and you will keep wondering why in the hell working people vote against their best interests and no longer believe the Democrats represent them. AND YES, anyone who hires an illegal needs to be fined severely and property confiscated if they continue to do so, and illegals need to be deported at the expense of their country. Don't like it? Too fucking bad, working people don't like their wages undercut and losing their ability to earn a living in their craft, because illegals are pushing them out. Anyone wanting to argue for amnesty needs to give up their livelihood and economic security first, then they will have some credibility to stand on. Until then, you are only telling working people to bend over and take it up the ass.

You do know the labor department is run by Bush cronies and their funding has been getting cut, don't you. Sure, Kennedy isn't walking into an agreement with McCain, like he walked into an agreement with Bush on education.

Once again, keep wondering why working people vote against their best interests, and AMNESTY is a very good start. Now leave me alone, since you think I do not know how Republicans are going to fuck the Democrats hard on this issue, and end up getting exactly what they want.

[sandnsea]

85. "Republicans talk tough on illegals"

That's what you said. Yeah they do. And you help them by repeating stuff like Democrats supporting amnesty, even though no Democrats do.

Yes I know the Bush Adminstration sucks, but you can't just do nothing for the next 3 years.

[Kansas Wyatt]

88. Do Democrats strongly oppose AMNESTY

Then why aren't they screaming about it? THAT'S THE POINT!

Why aren't they screaming about prosecuting employers who hire illegals? THAT'S ANOTHER POINT!

Why aren't they talking about how illegals are decimating the working class and undercutting their wages? THERE'S ANOTHER POINT!

The working class is watching, and they are not seeing any representation on this issue.

You are the one suggesting and taking 3 years to do nothing at all, not me. AGAIN, keep wondering why Democrats keep losing votes from the working class to republicans. I am not the one who needs to be convinced that republicans only 'talk tough on illegals.' Democrats fail to realize that the working class at least hears the republicans talking tough on the illegals, while Democrats figure out how to accommodate illegals already here and refuses to take a hard stand against employing illegal workers and illegals.

ONCE AGAIN, I have told you how Democrats are losing working class voters, and you can keep wondering why Democrats keep losing working class voters. If you just cannot comprehend it by now, there is no point in continuing.

[sandnsea]

89. They ARE

THAT'S the point. I don't disagree with you on the working class voter, I disagree with you spouting what the right wing SAYS the Democratic position on immigration is. How many more times do the Democrats have to say they oppose amenesty before you hear them? Every one of them has said that every time they've opened their mouths. I can remember John Kerry taking on Tyson and other Bush buddies for hiring illegals during the primaries. New regulations on business is part of the McCain-Kennedy bill and Kennedy has said so. More border patrol is part of it as well. Documenting workers will give them the avenues they need to file the complaints so wages and working conditions won't be driven down, that's the whole point of it. It's a comprehensive solution.

A handful of Democrats in DC can only do so much. If people like you choose to repeat what the Republicans say Democrats believe in, instead of what comes out of the mouths of Democrats, then you can't blame the Democrats in DC. That's YOUR fault and that is what happens time and time again.

[CanonRay]

64. Democrats who support unrestricted illegal immigration

so called "Open Borders" do indeed supoort undercutting wages. I think there is no doubt that the presence of 10 to 20 million Mexican workers here illegally undercuts wages. They are not just fruit pickers, you know. Visit any construction site. Any. Anywhere. Why do the employers hire them? Because they can get away with low wages, no benefits, no worker's comp payments. Probably no taxes withheld, as the SSN used by the illegal isn't his anyway.

[jukes]

67. if reagan hadn't succeeded

w/ his "right to work" union-busting bullshit, undocumented workers cdnt get a job on a construction site. time & again, the republicans have destroyed the American working/middle class so they can feed their greed. unions PROTECTED american jobs & required standards of training that prevented the shit-box housing that's now being produced for us to huddle in.
it's sophomoric to rage against immigrants for trying to make a living; instead, wreck the machine that is mowing down American workers to a subsistance-level average!

[sandnsea]

79. THAT is the Bush program

His "guest worker" program is open borders with tons of immigrants coming in. An endless supply of desperate workers who won't know their rights and will put up with the worst pay and working conditions. They already have businesses set up, bringing these people in from all over the world. If somebody gets uppity, kick them back home and bring in a more docile worker to replace them. You are describing the Republican plan.

[Ron Mexico]

31. Nothing can be done?

How about removing incentives for illegals being here and throwing people who hire them in prison?

Also, let's drop this "xenophobia and fear" bullshit - not agreeing with YOU isn't necessarily a character flaw. If there is so much more opportunity in this country, asking people who come here to follow our laws is NOT unreasonable. What other country can you stroll in to, demand services, demand government publications in your language, and get citizens like you to call anyone who doesn't like it "xenophobic?"

If you are in Mexico illegally, you are not entitled to emergency care. You are not entitled to taxpayer-funded legal representation, education or anything else except prison time and deportation. Does that make Mexicans "xenophobic" and full of "fear?" Same with most other countries. Are they racist, too?

Your ADVICE is to "embrace it?" "Cherish the experience of discovering differences and similarities between cultures?" I can do that with the people who are here legally, so please spare me your condescension and cliche.

Oh, by the way: since anyone could use your "human nature" arguments to justify anything a human does, sandwich ingredients aren't really a persuasive argument. Just sayin'.

[RagingInMiami]

34. Do you honestly believe that's going to happen

That they will start imprisoning the people who hire illegals?

We should stick with reality. Although the solution to this "problem" is obvious, why do you think it hasn't been done? Because big business runs this country, and that is not going to stop anytime soon.

And we are not Mexico, we are the United States of America. Mexico is a third-world country, we are a first-world country. We are apple pie, they provide our orange-picking work force.

The immigrants are here to stay, like it or not. That's reality.

But don't embrace it, don't cherish it, don't even eat the fucking sandwiches or the burritos.

Just keep voicing your theoretical solutions that will never find their way into Congress.

[Ron Mexico]

35. These ideas have made their way into Congress, and

then people here illegally protest. Amazingly, we get people like you who tell the majority of the country to suck it up because it's inevitable, and that if we don't "embrace" / "cherish" illegal behavior we're "xenophobic." Eventually, the situation will reach a tipping point, and yes, I do believe that it will change. It can't possibly continue like this forever, even with your skillful namecalling.

But thanks for that useful comparison between Mexico and the United States, something I'm sure only you had access to. I'm sure that if only the xenophobic fucks who don't have the brains or refinement to agree with you had access to these little-known facts, everyone would appreciate the wisdom and depth of your every thought.

In the meantime, can you tell us what other illegal activities we're supposed to "embrace" and "cherish?" Corporate greed and corruption, for instance? Government waste or corruption? After all, those are at least as unlikely to change or be the subject of effective new laws as illegal immigration, right? Should we "embrace" and "cherish" those, too?

[RagingInMiami]

36. Talk about the American way

"These ideas have made their way into Congress, and then people here illegally protest."

Perhaps if enough Americans took to the streets and protested against corporate greed and corruption, we can begin making some changes.

After all, we might not have "embraced" of "cherished" corporate greed and corruption, but we sure as hell have accepted it.

[Ron Mexico]

37. Accepted it? That's what you're telling us to

do about illegal immigration, right?

Oh, right, you have a problem with one and not the other, so only one is wrong.

So really, protesting is only okay when it's against something YOU dislike? We xenophobes aren't good at cutting through cryptic riddles like what you just wrote.

Oh, got any more interesting facts about the differences between Mexico and the U.S. (maybe some sandwich recipes)? All of us xenophobes are trying to learn what we should simply shrug our shoulers at and accept based on the wisdom of your teachings, but we don't have access to all that cool top secret stuff like you do. Maybe if you condescend to us more we can understand and benefit from your depth.

[RagingInMiami]

41. Don't put words in my mouth

I support freedom of expression for everybody whether I agree with them or not.

As I just said in another thread, if you feel that strongly about illegal immigration, then gather up all your friends and family and take to the streets.

[Ron Mexico]

42. I'm not.

I even asked you to explain your brilliant analysis so that us xenophobes could understand it. We need cool people like you to point us to stuff to "embrace" and "cherish."

I also asked you what other sort of illegal activities we should "embrace" and "cherish," but never once did I question your freedom of expression or your freedom to condescend to us shortsighted xenophobes. I never thought laws should be ignored just because others people don't like them or don't think their enforcement is feasible, but now I know I was wrong. I think I'll celebrate by going out and buying a few kilos of Bolivian flake, since the war on drugs is a failure (as such, we should "embrace" and "cherish" the use of narcotics, I guess). Is that the right stance, too?

See, I've got the same freedom of expression that you do, and I think that ignoring a law because it's tough to enforce is a crock, but advising others to "embrace" and "cherish" those who violate that law is condescending beyond belief, and I wanted to see where you drew the line. I know of nobody who is against LEGAL immigration, and I know of nobody who says "let the Irish illegals stay, but let's boot them damn Mexicans out," so when I see words like "xenophobia" I tend to respond with the same regard towards the writer that you have for those who don't agree with you.

So, does your "ah, screw it, it's human nature, so let's embrace and cherish" policy apply only towards illegals, or not?

[RagingInMiami]

44. You know what other "illegal activities" I support?

Marijuana use. I like to smoke pot every once in a while. I go through my phases. Sometimes I go months or years without smoking. Other times I smoke more often.

And even when I'm not smoking, I don't think pot smokers should be criminalized. I know the law says they should. But I choose to ignore that law.

I also support cohabition between a man and a woman before marriage. You might think that is legal, but it's not in Florida, which is where I live.

It is a second-degree misdemeanor; "Living in Open Adultery", Article 798.01 -- oh, the horror!

And guess what, it is also illegal in Virginia, the state you listed in your profile. Except they don't even have to be living together to be arrested. All they have to do is have sex before marriage and they are in clear violation of Article 18.2-344. Better known as the "fornication law".

Any person, not being married, who voluntarily shall have sexual intercourse with any other person, shall be guilty of fornication, punishable as a Class 4 misdemeanor.

That may be a misdemeanor, but if you happen to practice oral or anal sex, either with a man or a woman, then you're guilty of a felony. And marriage is no exception. After all, it is a "crime against nature."

§ 18.2-361

Crimes against nature

A. If any person carnally knows in any manner any brute animal, or carnally knows any male or female person by the anus or by or with the mouth, or voluntarily submits to such carnal knowledge, he or she shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony, except as provided in subsection B.

B. Any person who carnally knows by the anus or by or with the mouth his daughter or granddaughter, son or grandson, brother or sister, or father or mother shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony. However, if a parent or grandparent commits any such act with his child or grandchild and such child or grandchild is at least thirteen but less than eighteen years of age at the time of the offense, such parent or grandparent shall be guilty of a Class 3 felony.


But I'm sure your partial to the missionary position -- if you even have a sex partner -- so you don't have to worry about those pesky laws.

After all, you're such a righteous man, an honorable man. An exemplar of a law-abiding citizen.

You would never do anything illegal nor support such activity.

[Ron Mexico]

66. "But I'm sure your partial to the missionary position..."

"But I'm sure your partial to the missionary position -- if you even have a sex partner -- so you don't have to worry about those pesky laws.

After all, you're such a righteous man, an honorable man. An exemplar of a law-abiding citizen.

You would never do anything illegal nor support such activity."

This, combined with your previous posts, pretty much tells me everything I need to know about you:

1.) When someone doesn't agree with you, it's a character flaw on their part.
2.) When someone challenges you, you resort to insults.
3.) You want laws enforced only when you agree with them.
4.) When you have a point of view, everyone is simply supposed to accept it as human nature, "embrace" it and "cherish" it.
5.) Your ability to spell correctly and use proper punctuation is roughly equal to your ability to discuss things like an adult.
6.) You have a love for ending posts like a drama queen, full of weak jabs and weaker sarcasm.

I could have predicted a lot of that from your first post in this thread, but for some reason I had to see it for myself. Thanks for not disappointing me. Keep on raging down there, while we "xenophobes" up north "embrace" and "cherish" diversity of thought - you know, that "freedom of expression" you mentioned. A lot of us can actually discuss things without your dimwitted brands of sticks and stones, but I appreciate all the laughs you were kind enough to provide me.

[RagingInMiami]

74. Your posts have been nothing but belittling, condensending and snide

Why should you deserve any better responses?

[Ron Mexico]

75. Your first post was the very height of condescension, I challenged you to

defend it, and you came up lame. As expected.

But I "embraced" and "cherished" your freedom of expression, if that makes you feel better.

[shanti]

91. yes, accepted it

why didn't you complain when it was mainly in california, and MIGHT have had a chance of curbing it? oh i see...it's in YOUR neighborhood now.

gotcha.

[The Wielding Truth]

71. Your post has helped me weed through this issue.

I'm certainly leaning towards the position that with this wave of globalization, the problems of worker exploitation, and the constraints of national security,there cannot be an easy amnesty solution.

Thank you for your insight. I am new to this issue and I am still in learn mode. I hope that others are still open to a logical,if not simple answer.

[shanti]

90. thank you!

it's been going on in california for YEARS and you can see how far its gotten. it hasn't been stopped because THEY don't want it to stop! the only reason it's getting play (besides being a huge distraction from what's going on with *) is that it has stretched way beyond california's borders. people didn't care when it was california's problem, but now...i have to laugh.

[mondo joe]

32. I do accept the culture (and sandwiches) will change. That's not the

issue with illegal immigration.

I don't care if we increase legal immigration.

It's the ILLEGAL part I have a problem with.

[PsN2Wind]

38. Does your willingness to "embrace" these illegal

immigrants include letting everyone from Haiti or the Dominican Republic that wants to come to Miami into this country? Or is that a little close to your neighborhood? I'm sure there are a few million there that also "yearn to be free".
IMHO those proponents of unfettered immigration are, for the most part, those that have jobs that immigration is unlikely to effect or really need someone to mow their lawn, cheap!!!

[Ron Mexico]

39. Then there's some of us

who can't find a job in his or her trade where he or she lives (construction and D.C. Metro ares, in my case) because all of those jobs are going to illegals: under-the-table payments, no income taxes, so they get paid less and take home more. But that's okay, because if we don't agree with it, we're evil xenophobes who are full of fear, right?

[PsN2Wind]

43. Yet many posters here have little sympathy

for you and much for those that undercut your pay and your ability to find work. I'm wondering just how many of them will have there livelihoods threatened by these illegals being legitimized? Actually I'm wondering if any have ever worked at a trade that would be threatened?
Those that say the import of labor is just your tough luck should not expect much sympathy from us if their job is out-sourced.
The import of labor is more expensive to this country than the export of jobs.

[phylny]

47. You 're absolutely right.

In 2000, we bought a Toll Brothers home in the D.C. suburbs of Virginia. I watched my house being built, and watched others being built in the neighborhood.

Almost all the laborers were Mexican workers. One guy laying a floor in a house close to mine chopped part of his finger off. He wrapped it up and continued working. It was horrible.

There were so many things wrong with the house that we had them coming in and fixing things more than a year after we settled. Before settlement, I had a complaint about lumps under the carpet. I surmised that they were either pieces of drywall or other "stuff" not cleared away before the carpet was laid. I walked into the house one day to see a Mexican man with a mallet, smashing down whatever it was under the rug. His family was there with him, three little kids and his wife.

A few years later, we finished our basement and had a guy drywall for us. He had three Mexican helpers. I know he paid them in cash. They did a nice job, but I know they were probably underpaid.

There was such a tremendous amount of construction in Loudoun (and still is) and Toll Bros. and others are making a KILLING selling houses. I know why - they don't have to pay a decent wage, and they don't have to offer benefits.

I always wondered what happened to that poor guy's finger.

[Bridget Burke]

61. When you realized your house was being built by illegals....

You immediately got out of the deal! And you have barred any contractor who hires illegals from your home.

Clue: Every time you go out to eat, check the kitchen first!

[Bridget Burke]

68. So take to the streets & PROTEST!

What's your Union up to? What the hell do you get for your dues?

Surely you can get your jobless brothers & sisters out where people can hear your complaints.

[RagingInMiami]

40. I've long thought our immigration policy towards Haiti is unjust

We accept the Cubans and send the Haitians back.

[incapsulated]

45. "..we would still be living in Africa with dark skin and kinky hair.."

Guess what. There are people reading DU right now who have dark skin and kinky hair. They haven't mutated!! And, *gasp* they are also Americans.

You know, I find it interesting, to say the least, that people on this site, who will accuse others of racism quite easily, are so blind to it in themselves. This attitude is one I've come across again and again here, that "we" on DU are just white folks speaking among ourselves. And you aren't even aware of it.

[phylny]

48. Gee, I didn't read it like that at all.

I took it as meaning that over time, people changed and we as humans became very diverse in race and looks. If there had been no migration, all people would still look alike in skin color, hair, and features. We don't because of migration.

When reading it, I didn't assume the writer thought we were all white. Sheesh.

[incapsulated]

50. Think of it this way...

Would you say to a black person: "We would still be living in Africa with dark skin and kinky hair"? I would ask you what "we" you are referring to. I think you mean "everyone would be African", but that isn't what you said. You said "we". As in the people you are adressing. Some of whom already fit your description.

Now, maybe I'm just tired and oversensitive to this because I've read variations of it many times. I will admit that.

(edited to make the quote correct.)

Another edit for clarity: "We would still be living in Africa with dark skin and kinky hair". The statement assumes the we no longer live in Africa and we no longer have "dark skin and kinky hair".

[phylny]

51. As I read it, the "we" referred to "some of us have kinky hair, some of us

don't" so "we" all don't look the same anymore.

And, I didn't say the "we" originally, for clarification, I'm just responding that I didn't read it as though the poster was racist.

[RagingInMiami]

52. Oh for fucks sake

Talk about nit-picking. That is why we call them African-Americans.

[incapsulated]

53. I AM AN AFRICAN AMERICAN

Who is this fucking WE you keep referring to?

Jesus, way to make my point.

[RagingInMiami]

55. "we would ALL still be living in Africa with dark skin and kinky hair ...

while the rest of the earth’s land masses remained vacant."

Is that any more clearer for you?

[incapsulated]

56. I wouldn't have said anything, if that is what you wrote

But it wasn't, was it?

Never mind, I'm done with this. If I had a point, I've made it, I'm not going to argue this based on what you rewrite, now.

[RagingInMiami]

58. Yes, you got me, I'm a racist

So what right do I have to stand up for illegal immigrants?

[DrGonzoLives]

87. Irony?

You take umbrage at being called racist when someone else is offended by what you say...yet you are all ot happy to throw around the same terms yourself.

[Bridget Burke]

65. Some of the Irish have kinky hair....

And they tan better than the pasty-faced Irish. In fact, they are called "Black Irish." New theories of the "peopling" of Europe stress Atlantean links. That is, areas linked by sea routes--nothing to do with "Atlantis."

And the role of the Celts is seen more as a ruling elite spreading their language, rather than conquerers displacing earlier settlers. Especially in Ireland! Not that I'm contradicting your interesting post, just adding possibilities.

www.lilliputpress.ie/listbook.html?oid=2733139

It's interesting how many supporters of The American Worker have suddenly appeared. Before the immigration issue was popular, they were strangely silent on the subject.

And we've also seen some truly disgusting displays of xenophobia, racism & ignorance.

[RagingInMiami]

72. I lived in Ireland

And the theory of the Black Irish is that they are descendent from the Spanish Armada, which helped them in their struggle against the English. Many Spanish, of course, are a mix of European White and the North African Moors who invaded them.

Considering my ancestors on my mother's side came from Spain, I have no doubt I share the same DNA as many Africans. And that's something I'm proud of.

[RagingInMiami]

54. And we call them African-American

[rman]

49. I don't think anyone is in favor of illegal immigration.

But that doesn't mean anyone has to support immigration law that turns illegal immigrants into legal cheap labor guest workers, build a wall along the border and make it illegal to provide healthcare to illegal immigrants.

Nor does it mean nothing should be done so that just anyone can immigrate whenever and however they want.

[Bridget Burke]

62. I don't think "nothing should be done." But this is not a CRISIS!

Thoughtful reform of how we handle all immigrants would be useful. But making the long-standing situation a CRISIS is a Republican ploy to divide & distract.

[laheina]

92. Illegal immigration is the repug wedge issue of this election

season. Last election it was the fear and hatred of gays. This election it is fear for our jobs.

It's funny how they're using this issue to stir people up. Especially after *they* sent the economy down the shit-hole.

[Ioo]

69. Everyone should oppose ILLEGAL immigration.

Everything you speak of is LEGAL immigration. I lived in Tampa from age 12 until 19, I worked at Blanko's Cuban Rest on Cypress Street, where I learned most of my Spanish. I love Cubans. All of them loved America, and they all come to this nation via legal means.

I think it is dishonest, and in fact flat out a right-wing tactic to blur the lines between LEGAL immigration and ILLEGAL immigration.

If you are going to support ILLEGAL immigration, you may as well support ILLEAGAL wiretaps, or ILLEGAL wars. Stop it with this whole crap ILLEGAL immigration DOES NOT EQUAL the same as LEGAL immigration.

You should oppose ILLEGAL immigration, because it is ILLEGAL!!!

I give up, I would not argue with a right-ring nut, and I am not going to do it here. You are being dishonest and you know it. Throw open the doors and let everyone in, but shut your hole about impeachment and so on, because you support ILLEGAL acts, you have said it is OKAY to break the law.

[lonestarnot]

70. Ragin - I think most do not object to them being here, but do

object to the illegality of how they get here. It would be so much easier to have a stream lined immigration policy that is fair to all who immigrate.

[mzmolly]

73. Lovely, thoughtful post however accepting differences culturally

is not what this issue is about.

We need balanced immigration and labor laws.

[radio4progressives]

77. Excellent History Summary of Culutral Evolution vis a vis Migrations

As a former musician steeped in Irish, Scottish, Cajun and Bluegrass (ole timey too)and some Tex-Mex, learning about all this history (in general) informed my playing, emphasing idiom, the origin and traditions of the languages and cultural aspects of each tune or song.

[Inland]

81. I was following until you got to the native americans

and I realized that "evolution" can mean the end of things, too. They could have used some borders then.

The celtic music is nice when it's bluegrass, but then again, you see an effort in Ireland to reclaim a largely dead language. The Irish sure could have used a better set of circumstances at home, and not just the ability to flee.

The cuban sandwiches in Miami are nice, made by people who, or whose parents, never wanted to leave Cuba.

And I'm sure English will look and sound different in a hundred years. But in the meantime, what does that have to do with the practical necessity to speak it now?

All in all, I do believe immigration adds something. But that doesn't mean uncontrolled immigration is best, not unless you think that there's only an upside to more and more. I don't, because you use evolution as "whatever happens, happens", and there's some things I don't want to give up, like the concepts of representative democracy and civil rights first articulated by slaveowning white english speaking males of european descent.

[Zookeeper]

86. Well said. n/t

[Blue_In_AK]

93. Right on, Raging.

One world - we're all in this together.