Did you hear what DiFi said today at the immigration hearing?

[in_cog_ni_to]

She was asking that the 1.3 million (?) workers in Ca. be allowed to stay because her state NEEDS them. In making her case she said she had called the unemployment agency in Ca. and asked them to run an ad for agricultural workers. They didn't get one response. Nada. Zilch. Zip. Zero. Interesting, eh?

All the people who say they would gladly do the work the migrant workers do, seem not to be telling the truth.

I don't recall if DiFi said how long they ran the ad, but for however long it ran, no one applied for the jobs offered.

[Fridays Child]

1. Could be hyperbole, on her part. I don't know.

But that's a pretty powerful statement, and I'd like to see the proof. What wage was offered, for example? What kind of working conditions? Where and, as you asked, how long did the ad run?

In the absence of evidence, I'm not willing to support any proposal--Democratic or otherwise. This issue is too important to decide based on unsupported rhetoric.

[BlooInBloo]

6. How about we just stipulate once and for all time...

... that ANYTIME ANYONE says ANYTHING, it's ALWAYS theoretically possible that they are lying.

Done.

Now, do you have any specific reason to believe that DiFi specifically is lying in this particular case?

[Fridays Child]

40. You're ignoring the point I made...

...and implying I said something that I never said. Sheesh. :eyes:

[NanceGreggs]

18. Agreed.

If I were living in California right now and saw an ad for agricultural workers, I would automatically assume that it paid poorly, and offered no benefits of any kind.

Why? Because it's been all over the news for years now that these jobs are snapped up by illegals - and we all KNOW what kind of pay they make, don't we? I'd realize immediately that I would be competing for that 'job' with other applicants who were willing to take it for a less-than-living-wage.

Had DiFi ran an ad that said: "Agricultural workers desperately needed, fair pay, some benefits, quality working conditions and overtime past a 40-hour work week," she probably would have gotten a very different response.

[catmother]

23. hey sis. i just posted a reply.

:hi:

[BlooInBloo]

47. Oh I'm sorry...

I thought you cast doubt in the complete absence of even a shred of evidence.

My bad.

[benddem]

2. how much were they paying?

no one who lives here on the open economy could live on what they pay farm workers. Stupid point. Difi should know better.

[xchrom]

9. the migrant workers live on it.

what are you talking about?

and i'm all for living wage legislation -- just refering to the notion that people who live here don't accept those wages.

many, many of our migrant workers -- don't migrate!

[sandnsea]

15. They barely survive on it

They're the same ones people bitch about for being a burden on the local social service system. It's the same old story, pay people crap wages, blame them for being poor, and then whine about taxes to pay for the social service system they wouldn't need if they were paid fairly to begin with. Doesn't matter whether it's Wal-mart workers or farm workers, it's all the same story.

[xchrom]

24. but those aren't the facts anyway -- as a whole

migrant workers, day laborers{these are the illegals we're talikng about after all} contribute far more to the economy than they take out.

the social services argument is a ruse --

liberals/progressives need to have a different argument -- they need to argue for better wages -- period -- and frame the {illegal}immigrant within better wages for everyone.

[in_cog_ni_to]

14. Why would it matter to an unemployed American?

A job is a job is a job. Benefits or no benefits. You either want to work...doing ANYTHING to put food on the table, or you don't. This isn't about how much they pay or how good the benefits are. It's about people saying the immigrants are taking their jobs away. I think she proved a point...IMCPO.

[WinkyDink]

25. I think slave-labor might not be what being an American ought to include.

[in_cog_ni_to]

31. Then either go after the people who hire illegal immigrants

or let the immigrants do the jobs. The ONLY way to fix this is to make the people who hire them pay DEARLY for doing so. THEN, wages will be raised and benefits offered (maybe :().

[ClintonTyree]

36. There lies the rub.........

the cheap labor (slave labor) Corporate Republicans don't want to raise wages so they'll hire as many illegal aliens as they can. In a fair labor market (aren't the Republicans all about "free trade"?) hourly wages would rise with inflation, supply and demand etc. But the Corporate Republicans don't want that. So much for "free market" enterprise, huh? :eyes: Actually, the LAST thing the Corpo-Thugs want is a free market.

[tsuki]

51. True, I posted my saga yesterday here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2536347&mesg_id=2536438

It is not a happy situation for the corporate masta's.

[theophilus]

3. How much per hour do these jobs actually pay? Are there any benefits?

Are the working conditions safe? Are the hours reasonable? Do you have to be living a migratory lifestyle to "fit in" with this type job? I'm just wondering.

[jody]

10. I agree farm wages are too low. Best solution is to outsource farming

to other countries except for the hugh agribusinesses that can afford to replace labor with machines.

Food prices might go up but I'm sure you and others will not mind paying the added cost.

[bunkerbuster1]

4. What was the hourly rate being offered?

Did DiFi leave out that tidbit?

[xchrom]

5. of course they're not telling the truth -- it's the liberal version of

conservative christians against gays.

full of unreasoned hysteria.

this is going to a real latin-american country in the blink of an eye -- and we are blood related to mexico in innumerable ways -- legal or illegal mexican or latino workers are not the problem.

[kevinmc]

7. I heard her ....

But what i thought I heard her say was they posted in 50 something WelFare Offices .... which I thought was a stupid place to post a job. Didn't catch how long they posted it.

[John Q. Citizen]

8. Did she mention the rate of pay offered for the job? Piece work in the

fields is tough, especially when you try to pay rent on it and feed a family.

[sandnsea]

11. Because people go direct to farms to get hired

Not an employment agency or the unemployment dept. And since farm labor is seasonal, you typically don't get unemployment benefits either so you wouldn't be at the unemployment office to know a job was available. What a doof.

[Beaverhausen]

16. The point is...people keep saying that americans can't get jobs

so why wouldn't they go to an employment agency or unemployment office?

Bottom line - some people don't want to do this work.

[in_cog_ni_to]

22. EXACTAMUNDO!

:hi:

[sandnsea]

27. That's not how it's done

I'll say it again, my son was a wildland firefighter. He'd never go to an unemployment office looking for a job, he knows the system and would show up in spring for the pack tests, etc. Half of those workers are immigrants too. But college kids do the work as well. It's every bit as ugly as farm work, it just pays better. Pay a good wage, anybody will do the work. This is a bogus argument and one that allows business to keep exploiting labor, whether legal or illegal.

[Beaverhausen]

34. But a "wildland firefighter" is a specialized job.

If you are unemployed and just need a job doing ANYTHING to bring money in, a good place to look is the unemployment office or an employment office.

We are on the same side, but I'm just trying to show the reality that exists. I think more people would be willing to pick strawberries, etc. if the pay was better. That is what we need to focus on.

[bahrbearian]

12. Why didn't she offer some construction jobs, too ?

[Cleita]

13. A little story. Something that happened back in the seventies.

There was a big sweep by the immigration at one time in the 70s because the same noises were being made about Americans being unemployed and immigrants were taking jobs from them. The strawberry crop in Orange County was just becoming ripe when this happened.

With no workers to pick them because they were either in detention centers or being kept away by police, a call went to all the unemployment offices to get the unemployed into the fields to save the strawberry crop. I think they even convinced the growers to pay minimum wage.

If you've never picked strawberries as a living, then you'll know why they call it stoop labor. Not a single American worker lasted the whole day. They just walked away and said that they couldn't do it. The immigration had to relent and let the hispanic workers back into the fields to save the crops. After that it was decades before anyone started grossing about this again.

[in_cog_ni_to]

17. I believe it. Great story.

:hi:

[Cleita]

32. It's true. It was so long ago and a local story, I don't know

if there are archives of the Los Angeles Times to dig it up. I don't think you can find it on line though.

[Beaverhausen]

20. and we are down by 35% here for workers

the agriculture business is in dire straits here now trying to find workers.

I will look for a link....

[Beaverhausen]

41. Here is an article about the farm worker shortage

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/09/18/BUGLUEP7UD1.DTL&feed=rss.business

Ripe crops languish in the fields

It's harvest time in the Central Valley, but where are the farmworkers?
George Raine, Chronicle Staff Writer

Sunday, September 18, 2005


It's the middle of harvest season for California raisin grapes, and only half of the farmworkers needed are in the fields.

What holds for raisin grapes is happening widely in California agriculture. In the Central Valley alone, there is a shortage of from 70,000 to 80,000 workers to bring fresh fruits, nuts and vegetables to market, according to an estimate by the trade association Western Growers.

Some growers are planting fewer acres than normal as they scramble to save the season. Western Growers is worried that the lack of workers -- mostly immigrants from Mexico and Central America -- could cause $1 billion in losses to California agriculture this year.

Manuel Cunha Jr., president of Nisei Farmers League in Fresno, is getting 50 calls a day from growers asking where the workers are.

"It's a disaster," Cunha said. "We have an immigration program that is broken."


********
More at the link

[sandnsea]

21. My husband picked strawberries as a teen-ager

Where I lived, people fought to get the jobs in southern Oregon in the hops fields. Teen-agers will do these jobs, if the pay is right. You just have to have a system in place that targets them instead of immigrants. I don't care who does the work, that's not an issue to me. But Americans will do the work if they're paid fairly, and immigrants shouldn't be exploited and then blamed for the resulting problems.

[Beaverhausen]

26. so the bottom line is getting the employers to pay a living wage

right?

[sandnsea]

29. For everybody, yes

That's the problem. With our social services and health care. With immigration. With outsourcing. It's all the same problem. Corporate exploitation of labor, here and overseas. And farms are increasingly big corporate too.

[catmother]

28. and how long ago was that? back when i was a teenager i

would have picked strawberries too. but most teenagers today are spoiled by their parents and have high allowances.

[sandnsea]

33. My son's friend did 5 years ago

Bucked hay one summer. How about that? And how can it be that we can have one topic, that only 10% or less of Americans have $100,000 incomes to pay those high allowances and the rest of us are struggling. But that economic reality doesn't translate to this debate, when teen-agers I know have quit school to help keep the bills paid. This is a dumb dumb dumb argument to make to support immigration because it takes away from what the real debate should be, a decent standard of living all around the world which requires fair wages for ALL.

[catmother]

37. we tried to get some kids to do some cleanup work around our

yard. couldn't get anyone. my mother-in-law in new york couldn't get teenagers to shovel her snow. i guess it depends on where you live and what the income level of the people is.

but you're absolutely right. everyone should have a decent standard of living.

as far as $100,000 incomes that's not really all that much to give these kids the things they get today. i'll bet you that those high earners have a lot of debt. i was just talking to a dental assistant the other day -- i'd say she was late 40s, early 50s. i mentioned that experts say that if you want to live comfortable in retirement you have to live under your means when you're working. that's what my husband and i are doing. she said that she wasn't -- that their kids were getting married and they were helping them out and that her husband felt they should just put everything on credit cards. i hope these same kids help them out when they retire and don't have enough money to live on. i've heard the experts say that the average family has 2 car payments and approximately $8500.00 in credit card debt.

[sandnsea]

39. A dental assistant?

And how much do you think a dental assistant earns?

[catmother]

43. she's a special dental assistant to an oral surgeon -- i've heard

that a regular assistant makes about $14.00 an hour. my point is that she did not worry about having money to retire.

we met another woman -- a private nurse -- husband retired -- he had made a lot of money in the financial world. their accountant told them they had to cut back. they had 4 kids, a boat, a motor home and they ate out at least 5 nights a week. i asked her "aren't you worried about retirement"?. she said "what if you don't make it that long?":shrug:

[sandnsea]

48. $14 an hour, wohoo

You know what, I suspect you and I live in very different worlds and no amount of explaining about how low-income people barter to get a boat or a motor home because it's the only recreation they will EVER have will get through to you. Have a nice life.

zzzzz

[catmother]

50. well i tried to send you a private post but you don't accept them.

i don't know what your problem is. i'm 64 years old and i live a comfortable life. it wasn't always that way. i come from a blue collar union family. we lived in a cold water flat. we all worked our way up to better lives.

when i met my 2nd husband i was a single parent living in a dump of an apartment and i was unemployed. i took a job as a barmaid in a neighborhood you may know nothing about in new york city. i served pimps and hookers. i had pimps try to get me to put my ass on the street, but i managed to pay off my bills. we stayed in that dump of an apartment for 2 years until we could afford something a little better. we both busted our asses, worked all the overtime we could get and each year we made a little more -- lived a little better. our vacations consisted of driving from new york to florida out of season where we could get a room with a little kitchenette for $9.00 a night. things just got better as we worked harder and got promotions and raises.

right now we live in a beautiful house -- we both drive moderately priced cars which are paid for, we have a little nest egg that's growing. we live under our means. and you resent me for that. i'll never forget where i came from. my son was born in a clinic because we had no hospitalization. i didn't even know what doctor was going to deliver my son. i took him to clinics for his shots. back then there were no pampers. i washed diapers every day and hung them out on a clothesline. when it was really cold -- they actually froze stiff and so did my fingers from taking them off the line. we had no air conditioning in the summer.

so okay i'm doing good now. what's wrong with that? i'm very concerned with people who are less fortunate and i'm very charitable. i thank god every day for my blessings.

so if you want to think i'm some rich lady who doesn't understand the plight of the poor, think again.

on edit: my husband is still busting his ass. he works 10-12 hour days and sometimes has to go in on the weekend and he does not get overtime. because of his level -- he's exempt but if he wants to keep working that's how it is. he sometimes has to travel. last year he worked 8 months in minneapolis coming home on weekends. if you think that's easy -- you're wrong. he's getting up there in age too.

[Cleita]

30. This is true. Everyone should get fair wages for a day's work.n/t

[catmother]

19. the illegals take these jobs because they don't have a choice.

a us citizen can collect welfare which includes free medical care. i, for one, would choose the welfare rather than toil in the hot sun for minimum wage and no medical care.

anyone else? :shrug:

[NanceGreggs]

35. So true.

Medical coverage is all-important these days, and represents a substantially valuable 'benefit'. That's why too many people choose social assistance over a paying job - because if you have to pay your own medical expenses, for some people, it means not being able to 'afford' to take the employment.

[catmother]

38. exactly.

:dilemma:

[Lars39]

42. Welfare is now limited to only 3 or 4 years for an entire lifetime,iirc.

[catmother]

44. didn't know that. what if the person is unable to work due to

illness? i know there's a social security fund for the poor and ill, but it doesn't pay too much monthly -- not enough to live on.

[Beaverhausen]

45. Illness would be covered under disability.

and that is only 3/5 of your regular income...something like that.

[catmother]

46. actually my husband has to pay for that right now. the company

will give him 50% -- to be covered for 66-2/3% we pay a monthly amount.

but if you've never worked -- then what happens after 3 years.

[ecstatic]

49. Nobody answered? Not even the illegal immigrants

So what is her point? Besides, no mention of the pay rate offered.