Anyone here surprised by the level of latent racism popping up on DU?

[WilliamPitt]

The immigration debates are bringing a lot of stuff out of the woodwork here that is, frankly, kinda shocking to me.

One person compares people chanting "Viva La Raza!" in Los Angeles to Brownshirts in Nazi Germany. Another somehow conflates a family member's illness to illegal immigration and wants all immigration stopped.

Guess what, folks? If you're not a Native American whose family has been here since the Stone Age, or an African American whose family came over here in steerage chained to a wall, you probably need to STFU about halting immigration. I'm Irish, English and German, and I am damned happy that people making demands like that were ignored when my family came over here.

If we get rid of all the immigrants, somewhere around 250 million people will have to leave. That's most everyone here. All immigrants, or the family of immigrants.

Anyway, I'm pretty grossed out. We have a long, long way to go, it seems, before our claims to lieralism or progressivism can be supported by what is in our minds and hearts.

[BlooInBloo]

1. Pretty much the only ones who are surprised are white....

... folks with pigment know better than to be surprised....

(Don't bother getting the "reverse racism" chants going folks: I'm white)

[1monster]

6. I'm shocked, not because I don't know that racism exists. I've seen it in

action, both overt and covert.

I am shocked because we like to think we've evolved to a higher level here at DU. Apparently, we are not.

[mcscajun]

55. I'm not surprised, and I'm white. Not surprised, but always disappointed

I've seen too much here to be surprised.

and Racism is always racism. "reverse racism" is a loaded term.

[The Stranger]

2. Butwaitaminute.

When everyone was screaming bloody murder because an Arab company was going to operate some U.S. ports, somehow it wasn't racism and bigotry?

[WilliamPitt]

7. There were certainly elements of racism

that had been well-ingrained in the populace (and DU) by several years of Arab-oriented fear mongering.

BUT

Last time I checked, Mexico didn't have 9/11 money funnelled through their banking system. There weren't any Mexicans on those planes, but there were a couple of UAE citizens. Bin laden didn't break bread with Vicente Fox, but did with the UAE royals. There were, and are, legitimate security concerns about putting the UAE in charge of 21 American ports.

To make a bad pun, the comparison you offer isn't black and white.

[The Stranger]

37. You may want to edit your post.

Attributing the actions of 10-20 people to one billion people (who are otherwise completely unrelated) is the definition of racism. As far as 9/11 money, at least according to the ever-present, omnipresent spectre portrayed by the Neocons, it went and was everywhere, even Florida.

And there really was never expressed any legitimate security concerns based on actual facts. That is, no one has ever posted a link to any terrorist act of any kind every attributed to the company in question.

In was, in fact, guilt by association and -- to make a good pun -- clear as day. And the unappealing truth of the matter is that, once the smokescreen of "security" is removed, the association was race, pure and simple.

[WilliamPitt]

40. Um

The "company" is owned by the government of the UAE. hence, putting the government of the UAE in control of 21 ports, with their history of terrorism-funding and brunch with Osama, isn't racism. It's wise caution.

There are a billion people in the UAE government and royal family? Wow. The cafeteria lines in the public buildings must be a total pain in the ass.

[ClassWarrior]

15. It was a foreign government with ties to al Qaeda, not "an Arab company."

Nice try.

NGU.

[MADem]

31. It wasn't even a government--it was seven despots who own a country

They own everything, they make all the rules. It sure as hell wasn't a democracy. No voting, no rights for women, and don't even THINK about being gay over that way!!! And it really looked kinda fishy when nuke materials, heavy water and whatnot were being shipped out of their ports to (boogaboogaBOOGA!!!) Iran, the Monkeyking's latest enemy, and the administration expects these seven clowns to somehow be on OUR side??? Please! It was a poor decision, from the get-go. It simply did not pass the common sense test.

[1monster]

21. Not on my part. Somehow, outsourcing security to a country with strong

ties to Osama bin Ladin just doesn't seem, uh, intelligent. Also, I believe that port security should be done by this country, not any other country, not even Cananda or Great Britian.

Having another country manage our port security is just as stupid as outsourcing components needed for our fighter jets to another (rivall) country say like China.

What? We do. Nevermind. :blush:

[dogday]

25. That was about security and ties to Al Qaeda

not racism...

[JuniperLea]

29. No. No it wasn't.

It was all about not wanting a country that supported, housed and financed the actual terrorists who flew the planes on 9/11/01... and then refused to give any info about it after the fact. Period. I saw no racism whatsoever! It has nothing to do with the color of their skin and everything to do with the dirty deeds they pulled! That is a Bushite talking point and I totally resent seeing it used here on DU!

[MadMaddie]

30. Since we are in Post 9/11 mode...America must have

control of it's own security that includes all Ports, Airlines, Railways etc.

What other country in the world would let any country (not just Arab but any country) to manage their security. Russia wouldn't do it, Germany wouldn't do it....Why should America do it...It's not about Racism it's about common sense.

[stepnw1f]

3. Are They Liberals? You Sure?

I sort of just pretend everyone here is anonymous. But still, I am disgusted by the bigotry regardless of where they claim they are politically.

[htuttle]

4. Never surprised, but often disappointed

[KyndCulture]

10. That's my vote too....

[WindRavenX]

12. that sums it up

Racism is often hardest to stamp out when it's so engrained and so emotional a topic. Nothing's more effecive than a nice "us vs them" hate-on.

But these people claim they're not racist. They just don't like dirty browns taking a hard working American's job away. :sarcasm:

And yes, I consider it to be a racist attitude.

[rene moon]

5. Not surprised at all

And it makes me sick.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. Surprised and disgusted by alleged progressives sounding like the Klan.

[Dob Bole]

9. Not too surprised...

But I'm not sure why. Mostly it's just ignorance. Dem Underground, while mostly made up of progressives, is also disproportionatley made up of white suburban atheists, according to some of the polls and surveys we've had. Not that that's a bad thing, but from my experience white suburban atheists sometimes grow up distanced from other ethnic groups or their concerns.

Most people are ethnocentric at some point in their lives. Education is the only solution. People who seem racist now will not a year from now, assuming that they're actually studying the issues and want to know more about them.

[NMDemDist2]

11. lotsa discrimination going on Will, see this thread from the Greatest too

brown, black or female, it's still discrimination

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x759120

[warrens]

13. I don't think a couple of off-the-wall comments qualify

As any level of racism on the board at large. More like a couple of trolls letting their spots show.

[WilliamPitt]

14. Those are two bright examples

of a broader trend. Click around, you'll see it for yourself. Beyond the other stuff are all the people vehemently agreeing with the aforementioned examples.

[WindRavenX]

22. I think it's more than that though

The key word is "latent"-- it's not as obvious as "I hate Mexicans", but the attitudes displayed have a hysterical, almost paranoid fear about immigrants as a whole.
I think this is almost worse, in some ways, than blatant racism.

[GRLMGC]

26. I agree

They're worse than Freepers in some ways. At least Freepers are up front about their racism so you know what to expect.

[Iris]

52. yeah, and the freepers have Limbaugh, Boortz, and Hannity

to get them all fired up. I just expect people around here to be above getting sucked in by hate-mongering.

[bpilgrim]

27. i agree, it is usually a small minority here who spout RW views

at least that is what i associate them with, but they are definitely a minority or i wouldn't be here.

if will is right then DU sure has changed.

peace

[Yollam]

16. I haven't seen ANY racism.

You mention one quote by a person who doesn't understand what "La Raza" is about. That doesn't make him/her a racist.

Nor are the HUGE MAJORITY of democrats who want our borders controlled and immigration kept to reasonable levels. Nobody here has called for "getting rid of the immigrants" so why are you saying that?


I've seen a lot more reasoned arguments for why uncontrolled illegal and legal immigration has helped keep labor cheap, which is good for the investor class and bad for working people than I have seen of the xenophobia you're supposedly seeing.

Personally, I'm in favor of treating legal immigrants like royalty, but illegal aliens should be DEPORTED. Doing otherwise is unfair to those who go through the expensive and arduous process of legal immigration.

And 1 million immigrants per year is an awful lot to absorb. That number should be reduced, too.

And we should remember that it was Bush Sr. that raised the number of legal immigrants to the present level...

[BurtWorm]

17. I'm not surprised because the same divide rises to the surface

everytime the subject comes up. I don't understand the anti-immigration point of view--least of all when it comes from progressives who claim they're on the side of "American" workers. Unionism is supposed to be internationalist in outlook. No, I don't understand it, but I'm not surprised.

[Sammy Pepys]

18. Pretty shocking to me

This is the last place I think I would've seen stuff like that around here, but it doesn't seem to be majorly widespread.

[Disturbed]

32. If millions of Caucasions were entering the US...

illegally and driving down wages and taking jobs that Americans would actually do if the wage was at least minimum and had some employee rights there would be no concerns?

[BurtWorm]

39. You tell me.

Do you really think there would be? If it were Canadians coming south?

[Sammy Pepys]

58. I'm not disagreeing with you...

I've just seen some extreme language here. I think you can express discontent with the current situation without saying inappropriate things.

[TheBaldyMan]

19. just shows you now have REAL working class posters

just for the record I am a white, working class man - I have lived my entire life in close proximity with political incorrectness and thinly veiled racism. For those feather-bedded silver-spoon princesses out there - welcome to the real world.

[BurtWorm]

42. You don't think racism is for working class people only, do you?

Or just for men?

[TheBaldyMan]

63. working class people IMHO have less of an excuse for racism

because you tend to do the same crappy jobs, for the same crappy pay, with the same crappy conditions and are pretty much in exactly the same boat as immigrants.

Other posts as well as this one are trailing out the same old cliches, it's the <insert derogatory ethnic term here> coming over here and taking our jobs/housing/welfare.

One thing that is not being asked is why this is happening. If people started thinking about this maybe folk would stop blaming the immigrants and realise who is really behind it.

[DS1]

20. The Native Americans kicked out the Druids, who have been here

for millions of years.



Stonehenge, where the demons dwell,
Where the banshees live,
And they do it well.

[WilliamPitt]

28. No one knows who they were or what they were doing...

[DS1]

34. KISS?

[WilliamPitt]

43. Just to piss you off

[NoPasaran]

23. Totally not surprised

[Tinksrival]

24. Well there's immigration and there's illegal immigration

Which one are you discussing? Two different topics but you seem to use one in hand with the other?

:shrug:

[JuniperLea]

36. Doesn't matter

Your views on immigration should have nothing to do with race.

And if the current laws were actually enforced, there'd be no issue here.

[Tinksrival]

53. I agree with your statement but

The OP states:

<Guess what, folks? If you're not a Native American whose family has been here since the Stone Age, or an African American whose family came over here in steerage chained to a wall, you probably need to STFU about halting immigration. I'm Irish, English and German, and I am damned happy that people making demands like that were ignored when my family came over here.>


(Who's talking about halting immigration?)

I am first generation American. My father came to this country with his parents from Norway. They became citizens of this country.

I just think the OP is confusing.

[JuniperLea]

73. Hmmm... not confusing to me at all.

What is the motivation to do it legally? There is none that I can see. As long as corporate America uses them as pawns in their game of greed, everything remains the same.

Unless you are in one of the groups mentioned in the OP, then you are an immigrant to this country. There was racism against the Irish, against the Jews, against the Italians... virtually every immigrant group has had racism levied against them. We are all immigrants. My Irish ancestors talked about "Irish Need Not Apply" signs next to the "Help Wanted" signs...

And as I said, the laws are not upheld because of corporate greed... they want the cheep labor so they take advantage of the immigrants.

My mother's side of the family are descendants of Mary Chilton, whom legend has it was the first female European to set foot on Plymouth Rock. I am all at once proud, and ashamed. It may have been outside the law and technically legal for them to take this land, but we did a huge disservice to the Natives.

[mmonk]

33. Kinda surprised

but not shocked.

[Fridays Child]

35. Jimmy Santiago Baca

http://www.jimmysantiagobaca.com/

So Mexicans are Taking Jobs from Americans, by Jimmy Santiago Baca

O Yes? Do they come on horses
with rifles, and say,
Ese gringo, gimmee your job?
And do you, gringo, take off your ring,
drop your wallet into a blanket
spread over the ground, and walk away?

I hear Mexicans are taking your jobs away.
Do they sneak into town at night,
and as you’re walking home with a whore,
do they mug you, a knife at your throat,
saying, I want your job?

Even on TV, an asthmatic leader
crawls turtle heavy, leaning on an assistant,
and from a nest of wrinkles on his face,
a tongue paddles through flashing waves
of lightbulbs, of cameramen, rasping
“They’re taking our jobs away.”

Well, I’ve gone about trying to find them,
asking just where the hell are these fighters.
The rifles I hear sound in the night
are white farmers shooting blacks and browns
whose ribs I see jutting out
and starving children,
I see the poor marching for a little work,
I see small white farmers selling out
to clean-suited farmers living in New York,
who’ve never been on a farm,
don’t know the look of a hoof or a the smell
of a woman’s body bending all day long in fields.

I see this, and I hear only a few people
got all the money in this world, the rest
count their pennies to buy bread and butter.

Below that cool green sea of money,
millions and millions of people fight to live,
search for pearls in the darkest depths
of their dreams, hold their breath for years
trying to cross poverty to just having something.

The children are dead already. We are killing them,
that is what America should be saying;
on TV, in the streets, in offices, should be saying,
“We aren’t giving the children a chance to live.”

Mexicans are taking our jobs, they say instead.
What they really say is, let them die,
and the children too.

[SoCalDem]

Not a bit surprised.. Just like Karl planned

SoCalDem (1000+ posts) Sat Mar-25-06 08:44 PM
Original message
Right on schedule...Karl's still got his "groove"
Look at any "news" show and what do you see?

IT'S THE DOUBLE D PLAN IN ACTION

Divide & Distrust


All the nasty divisive stuff is bubbling up...can't you hear the burbling and oozing??

Immigration (racist undertones & all) is the headliner ..7 months before the election, the one thing that has to happen is for democrats to be put on the spot about this age-old issue.

Since we have been a country,(and before that) we have had northward immigration. If we built a 50 ft wall, they would build 55 ft ladders..

Immigration is an issue that republicans can win on...because as much as they pretend to "like Mexicans", everyone knows that "their" Mexicans are loyal toadies and are not rank and file "folks"..

BUT getting democrats to bite on this issue will hurt their standing in the hispanic communities and the republicans KNOW it..

Immigration is NOT a campaign issue, since NO ONE person's beliefs on the issue will make a bit of difference.. If it were an easy issue to "fix", it would have been done years ago.

It's an issue that just gets pushed onto the next congress and the next and the next.

............................................

Another pet issue that always gets people to divide up..abortion...Look at all the states (red ones) that are gleefully setting up SCOTUS cases and creating odd law to divide the voters ..

............................................



And just in case the media , still reeling from being hornswaggled over the war, continues on their path to finally start telling some truth, ...well... we have the "Poor-W-The-Media's-So-Mean" tour out there creating a new myth.. The Media is out to get him, and cannot be believed.. This one's right on schedule too, because if they are to steal another election ("the quad-fecta"), they must have people believing that the media is wrong..

The media is, after all, saying things like. "Democrats are leading".."Democrats might re-take congress".etc..

In order for the "steal" to work, the people must be prepared in advance to DISTRUST what the media says.

There are SEVEN months left...plenty of time for Karl to spin a new web..

So far the plan is working too. The media folks are trying harder than ever to "be fair", "be balanced", and are wasting lots of time trying to find "good stuff" to report, lest they continue to be attacked by the slime machine..

What they SHOULD be doing, is shining a light on the PLAN afoot, instead of thinking they can still have it both ways..

They tried that tack on the war, and it did not work out so well for them...

They should start out every report with ..." The adminsitration wants us to believe x-y-z-, and wants us to report ....

BUT we feel that the public needs to know about :

the environmental calamity approaching
the sorry state of health care in America
the vast numbers of people NOT even included in the unemployment reports
the sad state of college financing
the increasing of foreclosures
the increasing interest rates
the obesity crisis and its connection to "corporate-food"
the gasoline crisis
etc
etc

[KyndCulture]

41. And the liberals fell for this shit YET AGAIN!

damn are we stupid or what?

[Beausoir]

74. Yep. Works every single time.

[BlueManDude]

56. Wrong - Bush is on the wrong side of it

this will not hurt Democrats. It's yet another issue (like the ports) where Bush is at odds with his base.

[SoCalDem]

66. It hurts us when our so-called leaders line up with them

We should not even dignify the issue by commenting on it.. Let them swing on their own rope.. we don;t have to join them.. By Kennedy and others offering suggestions of their own, it only gives them reason to say.. "See EVEN the democrats" say there's a problem..

Kennedy and others should have countered with a suggestion to raise ALL wages to a level that employers would not want to hire undocumented workers..

[BlueManDude]

72. The Dems are irrelevant here

whatever is done will be Bush and the GOP's baby and I believe Bush is doing himself no favors here.

I'll give the guy credit. I disagree with his policy but the easiest thing to do would be to pander to the Tancredo types. He's sticking to his guns, albeit for the wrong reasons (it's cheap labor that he's in love with not some gauzy red, white and blue version of the American dream).

[JuniperLea]

78. Yep! There is no motivation for greedy corporate America to adhere

to the law! The fines they get are pocket change and the only people who suffer NIS raids are the immigrants themselves. It's business as usual the very next day.

There are three things that need to be done... enforce the current laws, shut down big corporations when they are busted the second time, and make it illegal to send money "home". If you truly want to be an American, come on "home" to America.

[CBGLuthier]

38. Give Texas back to Mexico and our problems will be solved

I find it really damn funny that the two states, Texas and California, where most mexican illegal immigration occurs were part of Mexico until a bunch of white assholes just decided those borders were wrong.

Most of the immigrants, Mexican and central american are the descendants of native americans and we are going to sit up here and tell them to stay out of "our" country?

Some nerve this "country" has.

99% of the illegal backlash is because of racist fears that america is turning latino. Well maybe it is. After a few hundred years of white domination maybe the change will do us good.

[cynatnite]

44. It's more startling to see the numerous posts supporting it...

My father and grandmother came over illegally after WWII. Germany was in ruins and they found a way out to survive. They lied and used fake documents to get in. My father couldn't go visit family in Germany. He wouldn't have been allowed back.

When I tell people that, they nod and are very understanding. I have a white face, red hair and hazel eyes.

Many of those same people want the brown skinned illegals deported who come here for a better life.

I can understand why this is such a big deal, but sometimes it seems like the loudest voices in supporting the building of walls and deportations is where the racism lies.

I'm hoping all of us learn from these discussions.

[BlueManDude]

59. Is it ever OK to change immigration policies?

Is it possible that the immigration policies of 50 or 100 years ago are not the way to go today?

[William769]

45. Discrimination comes in all forms here on DU

Not just racism.

[JuniperLea]

46. Not too terribly shocked

I'm disappointed almost daily by some people who post here.

Between the racism, the holier-than-thou-ism, the braggadocio, the grammar and spelling police, the rudeness and condescention... I'm finding myself reading the same posters over and over... and my ignore list must be huge by now. The one thing you have to remember is that this is the public at large; you will find all kinds here. There are many, many very good people here. That's what keeps me coming back.

On racism: Until we drop all words that denote color or race, until we treat all people the same, until we eliminate all mention of race and sex on school forms, business forms, employment forms, etc., we will never see racism go away, imho. I'm tired of all the lines of division in society. No matter where you want to draw the lines, a consistent number in each group are assholes... assholes come in all colors.

[fishnfla]

47. Let the Mexican flags fly in our country-why not?

Keep wages depressed for the working poor born here, by all means!

Dont bitch when you see the Rebel flag waving then.

[KyndCulture]

48. that's ridiculous....guess you just illustrated Will Pitt's point.

[JuniperLea]

49. ARGH!

It's not their fault! Blame corporate America! As long as someone can point a finger and say "illegal immigrant" then those jobs won't pay much. The price of the produce on your table is directly related to those immigrant farm workers! Chances are the restaurants and hotels you frequent are kept nice by illegal immigrants as well.

Don't blame them. They didn't cause this. Don't make them pay for something that corporate America fucked up!

[Midnight Rambler]

50. Here ya go

It's not my country, but they're my people.

[Iris]

57. Where were you when a large number of union members started

voting Republican? There's been a trend over the past 30 years or so for blue-collar, union workers to vote Republican. Now we're supposed to scapegoat an entire population because they vote against their own best interests?

Being uninformed is what hurst people - whether it's the working poor or middle management.

[BlueManDude]

51. It's not racist decry policies that drive down our standard of living n/t

[Iris]

54. But that's not what's happening.

A group of people is being scapegoated.

If working people are so concerned about the standard of living, than why have a large number union members been voting Republican for the past 20 years?

[BlueManDude]

67. Blue Collar Union types who vote GOP

do so based on cultural and social issues. The GOP pushes their buttons on gays, blacks, terrorists - whatever the boogieman du jour is, and they react like Pavlov's dog.

The fact that these people are stupid and vote against their own economic interests doesn't have anything to do with the fact that cheap labor drives wages down for all of us.

[Iris]

70. If you want to be on board with people like that, more power to you.

This issue is bringing up a lot of problems we have in this country right now, but I still maintain scapegoating a group of hardworking people who are looking for a better life is NOT the answer.

[BuyingThyme]

60. Latent racism: "If Mexicans don't do the work, nobody will."

[BlueManDude]

68. Isn't that more disparaging of Americans than Mexicans?

[BuyingThyme]

71. Yes.

[johnnie]

61. The thing is

"Guess what, folks? If you're not a Native American whose family has been here since the Stone Age, or an African American whose family came over here in steerage chained to a wall, you probably need to STFU about halting immigration. I'm Irish, English and German, and I am damned happy that people making demands like that were ignored when my family came over here."

They weren't ignored. My grandfather wouldn't tell anyone he wasn't born here because he was afraid that he would be treated like shit. He was only 3 when he got here, but he never admitted to not being born in America.

I think that is what you are saying. From what I remember, the Irish weren't treated very well when they started coming here. The Japanese were thrown into camps during WW2 and look what happened to the Arab community after 9-11. I could go on, but I am too lazy..lol.

As for the "brown people" comments being thrown around here so much, I don't really think that is it regarding this immigration issue. It just so happens that the majority of immigrants that are being affected by this bill are from Mexico and they happen to have darker skin than us from european decent.

I have seen a hell of a lot of people accusing people here being racist against the "brown people", but I have yet to see one person who is against the immigrants coming here to say "brown people". It seems more like the people who are accusing others here at DU of being racist against the "brown people" are being more racist by not discussing this as an immigration issue instead of skin color issue.

Flame away.

[juajen]

62. Come on, Will

Who's talking about sending all the immigrants back? It only makes sense now that we are reaching saturation, to at least put some controls on immigration. I don't think there are many, if any, countries in the world where you can just go over the border and set up housekeeping, are there?

I believe, however, that if they pay taxes, they deserve citizenship. The control should be with the company that hires illegal aliens. Their wages should be American wages. If a company does not comply, the fines should be very heavy and implacably enforced.

[WilliamPitt]

69. "now that we are reaching saturation"

Do you have any proof at all to back that assertion?

[juajen]

81. None, except for the polluted waterways all

over the county, a lot of which comes from fertilizer used to feed our growing population. Give me a break, please?

[countryjake]

64. What surprises me are all the Democrats supporting...

a draconian Republican bill! Has everyone read that thing? They are fine-tuning it today (on C-SPAN) and it's some pretty scary shit.

We should be spending our time calling and writing our Senators, instead of fighting all the freeper-trolls and chicken-shit DINOs that are trying to raise the ruckus on here. Looks like HR4437 will make it out of committee today, with some amendments, and hit the floor tomorrow, as scheduled. Republicans are forcing this thing thru!

[BeHereNow]

65. Please add: "Not only surprised but DISGUSTED."

I need that choice to vote accurately.
BHN

[Cleita]

75. You have come late to the party.

This bigotry has been raging for more than a year now on DU. I still have the scorch marks on my ass from all the flaming posts.

[northzax]

76. honestly, Will

it's not the same thing, and you know it. certainly there is a lot of nativism on this board (see: dubai ports), and I myself am the descendant of illegal immigrants (was anyone less wanted than the Puritans?)

However, mass illegal immigration is a symptom of a societal illness. It is a symptom of illness in the societies that lose huge numbers of talented people to emmigration, and it is a symptom of the illness in the US labor markets. We want illegal immigration, we need illegal immigration because there is nothing cheaper than what is, in essence, a slave population. The immigration in the earlier stages of US history filled in vacant spaces, and was much more regulated than what is happening now. But it had the same effects, of driving down the price of labor on a consistent basis. As long as the Irish and the Italians were at each other's throat for a piece of bread, they weren't ganging up on the plutocrats. And there was always more space to spread out, and more resources to go around (plus, we were willing to consider people living in much worse conditions than we are today, go visit the Tenement Museum in the Village. Today, people without health care is an abomination, then it was everyone. Today, people without a high school education (at the very least) are screwed, then there was enough manual labour to get by.

The immigration today is significantly different than the waves that came before, for several key reasons. One: much of it is intended, by the immigrants themselves, to be temporary, not permanent (sure, the people leaving County Kildare during the potato blight always said they were coming home, but the reality is that they, and everyone else, knew that wasn't going to happen. Because of the inevitability of staying, there was more of an incentive to assimilate and join the civil society of the new country. And they knew that by doing so, they could become Americans. Modern day undocumented immigrants don't have that luxury, they will never be Americans, and they know it. most of them don't want to stay, they want to make enough money to support the wife and kids back in El Salvador. But the process forces them to stay. And while forcing them to stay (since border crossings are so dangerous now) it forces them to remain as second class citizens, easily exploitable by almost anyone. What, are they going to call the IRS if someone garnishes their wages illegally? of course not, they can't, since the very facto f hiring them is a crime, and their working is even more of a crime. We have created the ultimate labour-destroying device, a group of people not accountable to the law, and even worse, who's employers are not accountable to the law. Why is it a worse crime to take a job without a permit than to hire someone without a permit?

Illegal immigration is a serious problem, not because of the immigrants, but because of what they represent, the illness in our societies and theirs.

[acmejack]

77. Call me young and impressionable

Though at my age I merit being called neither...

I frankly find it quite difficult to damn a man for crossing an invisible line in an attempt to make a better life for his family. Perhaps due to having been fortunate enough to have traveled extensively, I have realized that men are all brothers, united through their exploitation by the wealthy and powerful.

Anyway, I have been nonplussed, to say the least. The veneer is thin...

[mzmolly]

79. No. While I don't excuse it - some people are competing for "the jobs

Americans won't do" with said immigrants. They, like those who come looking for work from other countries, have families to feed.

If jobs were plentyful and there really were jobs "Americans wouldn't do" then you'd see much less trepidation about the immigration situation.

[CornField]

80. Why would anyone be surprised? Look how women are treated

Prior to and definitely following the 04 elections, women were tossed under the bus by many on DU. Why should it be shocking that it is happening to others as well?

[LeftCoast]

82. Locking

While I agree with the sentiment, it is against DU rules to call out other members of the board.