"OMG! The MEXICANS are coming"

[rene moon]

I am so appalled at the attitudes of this supposedly "progressive board". It makes me sick to my stomach, just reading all this shit.

I am Latina an I live in Tucson, AZ--45 minutes from the border. My great-grandparents came from Puebla, Mexico to escape the Revolution in 1910 so, the family has been here a while.

I am HEARTENED by the activism of the protesters. Many good folks are here, escaping poverty or worse in their home countries AND working hard at jobs that are usually thankless and invisible. I think it's wonderful that these folks are claiming their voice and calling attention to this issue. All human beings have intrinsic rights not dependant on legal status. I am proud to live in country where protests such this can take place.

I've been reading the posts regarding illegal immigration and see the argument that these people are taking away "our jobs." If that is so, then why is the unemployment rate in Arizona and California (4.8 percent) the same as the national average, when both states have a much higher percentage of illegal immigrants within the population than most other states?

These immigrants, mostly from Mexico, are hard-working, family oriented people. They create jobs by being here. Like everyone else they spend money and contribute to the economy by buying clothing, groceries, cars and all of life's necessities. And I think there are taxes in involved with that.

America is NOT being INVADED. If it had been 3,000, the event would have been pooh-poohed as just a few immigrants who don't vote. But 500,000 marchers? And that's with many sympathetic citizens still on the sidelines. The silent majority if you will. Scary, huh?

Scary because of the potential voting power it represents. Scary because of the realization of the changing demographics.

The bill they were protesting, HR 4437, undermines working immigrants and their loyalty. It is very much similar to the Repatriation of US Citizens to Mexico program of the 1930s, a horribly embarrassing piece of our fine Nation's history and re-creates the Berlin Wall in our Arizona desert.

An enforcement only policy has not worked and will never work. By criminalizing worker immigrants, it will undermine US-Mexico relations and offend many who live down here, in the border culture.

Solutions for immigration must include, at a minimum, an updating of our laws to reflect our economic needs, the reality of our global state, and dealing with the immigrants currently here. If we are to know who is here, and ensure that future immigrants enter legally, we must work to bring immigrants out of the shadow and encourage legal entrance, not criminalize and force immigrants in the US to hide.

So, you better watch out, the brownies are here (and have always been here)!

[ronnykmarshall]

1. Word!

:headbang:

[mdmc]

2. My ancestors took jobs from 'merikans

hang in there. Support immigration!

[BrklynLiberal]

8. Right on! My ancestors got here only 20 years before yours...

This is another one of those wedge issues that the Repukes use so disgustingly to divide us against ourselves.
Don't let them do it!!!


EDIT: WRONG PLACE This was supposed to be a reply to the OP

[mdmc]

104. I'll be seeing you 4-30-06

Mission Accomplished!!!

[roody]

131. My mom came from Ireland without a visa

in 1926. Her family was bankrupt. They lost their business in the Depression for having extended credit to wool millworkers.

[Deja Q]

205. And themselves too?

[babylonsister]

3. Excellent! nt

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. If its any condolance

they said the same thing about the Irish and the Germans when they came here in great numbers.

I welcome these hard working people from Mexico to my area, for are they not my brothers and sisters?

[Rainscents]

5. I'm with you and defend you all the way!

So many people are brain dead and self-fish about this issue.

[KyndCulture]

6. Unless you are a native american...

quitcher bitching about immigration because YOU ARE ONE!

There's some racist horseshit going round today...

[Maestro]

7. Couldn't have said it better.

Nominated. And please see my thread. Thanks.

[Xeric]

9. agreed

Yesterday I talked to a relative who is generally a progressive, Democratic voting person, but she has bought into the hysteria hook line and sinker. Said Bush was "too liberal" on the issue of "illegal immigration". Said she didn't want her tax dollars paying for illegal's kids blah blah blah.
I told her that immigrants pay taxes and generally work hard and contribute to society. That she was being fed Rove talking points. I told her that America has ALWAYS been about immigrants. That many of our ancestors came here looking for a better life and didn't speak English at first. That in a generation or so it just didn't matter any more. I don't know if I got through.
I see lots of angry and ignorant LTTE's about this subject. I see barely concealed racism, hysteria and demogoguery. I'm disgusted. This will be this year's wedge issue that will be exploited for political gain. Don't fall for it.

[Catherine Vincent]

10. So, you better watch out, the brownies are here (and have always been here

Left on, sister! :thumbsup:

[On the Road]

25. You're Doin' a Heckuva Job, Brownies!

:thumbsup:

[mitchtv]

33. I got me one

an I'm keepin 'm

[texastoast]

11. Good

I wouldn't know how to be without Mexicans. I've never been without them and I don't plan to start now. I grew up playing with Mexicans, learning from Mexicans, and loving having them as my neighbors and friends.

And you are right, you have always been here.

You must be terribly proud to see such solidarity. I'm very proud of it myself.

[RagingInMiami]

12. They've awoken a sleeping monster

And it couldn't have come any sooner.

[radio4progressives]

115. "And it couldn't have come any sooner" Hear! Hear!

[baldguy]

I heard on the radio this morning.

Dems want amnesty for undocumented workers, because they want them to become citizens & vote Democratic.

'pukes want "guest workers" because they want cheap laborers to clean their toilets & mow their lawns.

Of course, the 'pukes don't realize or care that not so long ago it was the Anglos who were the illegal aliens in CA, AZ, NM, NV, UT, CO, OK & TX.

[ClayZ]

13. Big K and R!

:kick: POWER TO THE PEOPLE! ! ! !

[xchrom]

14. as far as i'm concerned -- america and mexico are blood relatives.

and the racist hysteria about illegal immigrants is just that -- racist hysteria.

but you hear alot of homophobic crap on this board too -- so i'm not surprised about the immigration stuff -- i try to stay out of it now days.

i live in cali -- and this state would collapse with hispanic particiaption at all levels.

but i also think that the difrference between cali and mexico now isn't worth talking about -- we are related -- in every way.

more to the point -- in very short period of time this will be a majority hispanic speaking country -- then what?

[demosincebirth]

97. One third of the U.S. use to belong to Mejico

[Critters2]

103. well, then we're at least as much French

They sold us the Louisiana Purchase

[demosincebirth]

107. There's a difference between buying and stealing

Peace.

[Critters2]

110. Tell that to the Lakota

[sadiesworld]

156. There was no theft.

You may want to look into The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

[demosincebirth]

187. $15 million bucks? And there was no bargainig either

The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was negotiated at the end of a sword. Also, we never lived up to our part of the Treaty.

[im10ashus]

15. We had quite the lively discussion Friday - Saturday.

I was surprised at some of the comments.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x745050

[countryjake]

28. Yeah, and I'm still waiting for "the rest of the debate"...

I have a feeling some people's heads may have exploded, after they watched the Evening news on Sat., ha!

[im10ashus]

31. Here's hoping we changed a few minds!

:toast:

Thanks again for your help. :-)

[sinkingfeeling]

16. I have refused to read many of the posts on immigration today...

I believe that all humans are a part of mankind and deserve justice and liberty. I see no 'god awful' effects of immigration. I've never seen blond haired, blue eyed people lining up for jobs at the local Tyson plant. I really don't think the American public has a clue.

[Critters2]

43. They might

if Tyson paid a living wage and followed OSHA regs.

You don't have a consitutional right to cheap chicken.

[sinkingfeeling]

57. Since I don't eat chicken, I don't care how much it costs. However,

if Tyson had to pay chicken pluckers a living wage, then the poor investor class might not like it and Wall Street (Bush's only claim to a 'booming economy') might suffer. Ditto for most other big corporations. The GOP only wants a source of 'cheap' labor.

[Critters2]

61. I don't eat chicken, either

or eggs or pork, precisely because of this issue. Your statement that natural born Americans won't do this work, though, is simply wrong. You admit that Tyson hires cheap labor, but THAT is the reason "white" Americans aren't lining up for their jobs.

Another thing to keep in mind...probably the natural born Americans most harmed by illegal immigration aren't white, they're African American. What happened to the Democratic concern for them?

[sinkingfeeling]

84. The fact is 'natural born Americans' won't do that type of work for the

dollars being offered. In an ideal world, all jobs would pay a living wage or more and have great benefits, but that's not the reality. It is not the illegal worker who's at fault here. And since they are holding jobs, they are contributing to the economy.

[Critters2]

87. They'd contribute more if they were paid a living wage

Why aren't Dems working for that? Do we really love our cheap chicken that much?

[megatherium]

68. You might want to read Erich Schlosser, Fast Food Nation.

He tells the story of meat packing plants and the exploitation of workers: they broke the unions by hiring immigrant labor.

[Critters2]

76. It is a great book

I saw all of this happen in Iowa, and am grateful to Schlosser for telling the rest of the country!

[kiteinthewind]

109. My thoughts, exactly! Thank you!

O8)

[Cobalt Violet]

154. May I ask what you do for a living?

Just curious.

[Bridget Burke]

182. Full time labor organizer?

Crusading journalist, fighting evil corporations?

Somehow, I doubt it. Several of those against undocumented workers have stressed how the US worker is being hurt. However, none of their previous posts indicate their Solidarity With Labor.

[Critters2]

207. My brother is a full-time labor organizer

I've been a shop steward for UNITE. I now serve a congregation in a strong union community (glass workers and miners), and work along with unions on a good many issues.

What is it that you do?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. The Mexicans are coming home.

La Revolucion is on the streets. Viva la Huelga General!

[Zookeeper]

149. Ummm.

I don't think Minnesota has ever been "home" to Mexicans. However, Mexico did open a consulate here last year.

[AllieB]

18. My ancestors dug ditches, built the Brooklyn Bridge, and were told

no dogs or Irish need apply. I don't know how anyone can be against immigrant rights, in a country that was founded and built by immigrants.

This reminds me of when I first joined DU, and there were a lot of people defending the Minutemen. :puke:

[BlooInBloo]

19. It's sad isn't it?

How people HERE of all places think this "murika for murikans" racist code crap will fly by unnoticed.

[Siyahamba]

20. Totally agree

Not even bothering going into those other threads because I know there's no convincing those bigots.

[Cobalt Violet]

155. WTF! Which DUer's are you calling bigots!

[Hobarticus]

21. K & R'd, rene moon, K & R'd...

Thanks for the shot across our bow.

[Bridget Burke]

22. Some DU'ers apparently forgot that the protests....

Were directed against a Republican bill. Those few let rip with all their fear & xenophobia. The Democrats have a bill--they are not saying "Let everyone in right now!" But some DU'ers missed that--or pretended to.

Much that is good about my State, Texas, came from farther South. People of the world need to unite against the corporate elite instead of fighting among each other.

[radio4progressives]

124. Hear! Hear!

[rene moon]

23. kick

[Squatch]

24. I am a German immigrant

and have (an currently do) served this country in uniform for nearly 10 years.

I believe (and will defend) in the American dream and I believe that if you want a part of the American dream, then there should be absolutely no barriers to you striving for it: no chain link fences nor political barriers.

[underpants]

26. I don't have a problem with them or any part of this

It's just business. Hell the real question is "Why don't we make it legal (thus making it not illegal) and regulate it?"

I know I know they fear regulation and all that.

Some people don't want anyone to know how many are here or how much there are paid or how they are treated (and it ain't the small business folks).

[astonamous]

27. I must have missed all the hub-bub...

I keep wondering why there aren't any walkouts or protesting going on here in Utah. I don't watch most of the local news, but usually if there is something going on, I would have heard on some of the blogs.

Most of what I have seen on DU has been in positive support of the Latinos. I know that I support anyone who wants to risk everything to make a better life for themselves and their family...especially their kids. They come over the border to work and end up as slave labor, which is the real crime.

I have actually looked into retiring in Mexico...which means I need to quit putting off learning Spanish. Honestly, I took Latin, but never Spanish. So if you talk real slow I can pick out a word or two and get the basic meaning, but I can't speak Spanish at all.

I am kicking and Recommending.

[Joanne98]

29. The CA and AZ unemployment rates are NOT 4.8%

That is a phoney number since the the long-term unemployed are not counted! I grew up on the border. I happen to know for a fact that nobody loves illegal immigration more than cheap-labor republicans.

[Critters2]

45. And knee-jerk "maybe they'll vote for us" Democrats

[Joanne98]

92. 28% of them voted for Bush in 04' They were PRO-LIFE!

[demosincebirth]

111. I don't think illegal immigrants are allowed to vote.

[radio4progressives]

128. Not every Hispanic/Latina/o are illegal ..

Naturalized Citizens can vote, and those born here are Citizens..

[demosincebirth]

136. I know that, but we weren't talking about naturalized citizens we're

talking about illegal immigrants/immigration.

[Texaroo]

30. A history lesson...

It amazes me that in Texas, people forget how integrated our undocumented workforce actually IS. My family has consistently hired laborers for ranch help, handyman tasks, child care, and all sorts of work, going back at least 100 years. Most lived cheaply here, and sent every spare dime back home to care for their families. These folks taught me Spanish, among many other things.

Throughout my life, I have worked with many who didn't have the "necessary paperwork," but who contributed greatly as consumers, co-workers, and as employees. They are essential to the Texas economy.

However, there ARE problems that MUST be addressed. Unlike historical immigrant groups, there is no desire to learn the language, which imposes a sort of self-isolation. They often violate auto registration and insurance laws, and they crowd emergency rooms and cost health care dollars. I would argue that some of these are simply economic side effects of working at jobs that pay very little. However, I would point out that the beneficiaries of paying them so little are typically employers - their exploitation of these workers is also exploiting public health care and other publically funded institutions. I have even see employers coach employees injured on the job as to what to say in the emergency room - that way there is no worker's comp investigation.

Latinos helped liberate Texas from Mexico. Around San Antonio, there are Latino families who have lived in the same place since Spanish missions were established almost 300 years ago.

Immigration Reform is a similar argument to the environment - the truck should be with those who exploit, and legislation should be designed to address that.

[Critters2]

46. If your family paid a living wage,

they could contribute even more to Texas' economy.

[Texaroo]

74. Bingo!

Absolutely. My point is that the exploitation produces more ill effects from illegal immigrants than does anything else... Pay them a living wage, provide benefits, and the tax burdens are lowered, and the demand lessens.

[Elwood P Dowd]

105. Correct, but most here choose to ignore it

Your quote:

"However, there ARE problems that MUST be addressed. Unlike historical immigrant groups, there is no desire to learn the language, which imposes a sort of self-isolation. They often violate auto registration and insurance laws, and they crowd emergency rooms and cost health care dollars. I would argue that some of these are simply economic side effects of working at jobs that pay very little. However, I would point out that the beneficiaries of paying them so little are typically employers - their exploitation of these workers is also exploiting public health care and other publically funded institutions. I have even see employers coach employees injured on the job as to what to say in the emergency room - that way there is no worker's comp investigation."

Many of the immigrants in my area are being paid 5 bucks an hour for jobs that once paid US citizens $6.00 to $10.00 an hour. Some even work for $3.50-4.00 an hour under the table. The republican-owned businesses take advantage of the immigrants, plus they've put millions of US citizens out of work or forced them to accept a lower standard of living. The unemployment rate for young black males in many areas of the south is in the 30 to 40 percent range.

When the housing bubble bursts, many of the immigrants are going to be stranded in the States without a job. There are millions of them employed in construction, landscaping, paving, and other areas related to the housing boom. The housing bubble is THE ONLY thing that is propping up the economy. When that goes, so goes the economy. The REAL unemployment rate is now close to 10% for US workers. What will it be when the recession hits? And, what happens when you add millions of immigrants to the mix?

Finally, why is no one in this thread addressing the corruption of Fox and the Mexican government?

[WindRavenX]

32. rene,

I too am appalled at some of the attitudes displayed. Not everyone here is in an "us VS them" mentality.

I long for the day when borders and nations don't exist.

[bleedingheart]

34. as the granddaughter of immigrants from Europe who took jobs

that "no one else would do"...which is capitalist code for "jobs that pay squat and are dangerous"...

I have to say that it is appalling to see the anti-immigration craze today....the country was founded by and populated by immigrants.

[Zynx]

36. It's nationalist/racist garbage.

The same thing happened to the Irish, Italians, Poles, etc.

[Zynx]

35. My Irish and Polish ancestors were treated the same way.

It's disgusting. Immigration is good for the United States. We should speed up the legal processes so we don't have to have illegals.

[bleedingheart]

38. but if they are legal they can vote and they gain the protection of

citizenship.....and that is what the people like shrub don't want to see...they want to see the immigrants permanently locked into a limbo doing work for next to nothing....

[NNN0LHI]

37. Get rid of the wide brush though. There ain't that many racists here

The few that are here just post a lot. Makes it seem like a lot.

Other then that good post.

Don

[coalition_unwilling]

39. I support workers without regard to national origin

In Los Angeles, Latinos\Latinas do all the work so that the money changers can sit around drinking their cafe lattes at Starbucks all day. It's frigging incredible how hard the immigrants work and for what to me seem like meagre rewards. (I grew up on a farm in Missouri and I know hard work when I see it.) Should Sensenbrenner's bill become law and L.A. not declare itself a sanctuary (like Coachella just did), I plan to join resistance movement and actively and knowingly aid undocumented immigrants. That is, if I don't get arrested helping run an underground railroad in South Dakota first :) So many civil disobedience opportunities, so little time.

[countryjake]

44. As a former farm girl myself, I echo your sentiments, exactly!

If they intend to make felons out of pickle pullers, civil disobedience will be the ONLY way to go!

[Critters2]

48. No, paying pickle pullers a decent wage is the way to go

NO one has a right to cheap pickles.

Farm girl my ass! Real farmers pick their own cukes! Corporate pretend farmers hire immigrants and underpay them

[countryjake]

118. You obviously know nothing about the Pickle Business!

There are no agri-business farms around here, all small farmers just trying to break even and maintain their rural heritage. Many have gone under in the past six years, due to the economy and the desire of many of their pullers to seek out a better, less back-breaking living.

Not many real farmers around here want to see armed government agents patrolling their fields, harassing their farmworkers, and slowing down harvests.

Sorry, if it hurts you to hear the facts. You should try reading up on them...have you ever even seen hundreds and hundreds of acres of cucumbers during the month August. No measly pickle patches out here!

[Critters2]

188. People should be paid what they're worth

Period.

[countryjake]

197. And how is that possible....

if the prices that farmers get for their crops is less than what it takes to plant, grow and harvest them? Do you know anything about what our government has done to the small farmer with its policies on markets and trade? Just the price of gas the last few years has put many family-owned operations in jeopardy and even if they make it thru the growing season, the land taxes might do them in.

Cheap pickles you buy in a jar at the grocery has absolutely nothing to do with the price a farmer gets for a bushel of pickling cukes...their buyers are jumping with CAFTA down to Central America, where the American-owned agri-businesses pay those farmworkers peanuts (who themselves once owned and farmed that same land, but now are reduced to slave-labor) and people with proud traditions of love for the land and everything that grows in it can no longer even feed their families.

We have Clinton's NAFTA and Bush's CAFTA to thank for the fact that small farmers and proud farm workers all over the Americas can no longer earn a decent living from this earth!

[Critters2]

199. I buy locally grown cucmbers from farmers I know

(who I KNOW don't hire illegal workers) and either can them myself, or buy locally produced pickles at the Farmer's Market. I do everything I can to keep the hiring of illegal workers from being profitable, including NOT buying from those who hire them.

If others would do the same, we could take a hold of this problem.

[countryjake]

202. When thousands march in protest of Bills which create that problem...

much more is accomplished, wouldn't you say?

There are individual things we can all do to tell the jackasses in the White House we don't support them and there are collective actions which make those bastards tremble!

The right-wing is terrified this week and we have those working people to thank for it!

[countryjake]

203. And any Bill that ultimately throws up a barrier...

to any one large segment of workers from organizing and gaining their collective voice by unionizing should be protested!

[Critters2]

204. Problem is...

the right wing gets to vote. At least some of those protesting don't.

[countryjake]

206. what does voting have to do with it?

[Critters2]

208. Voting affects policy.

If right-wing voters are pissed off by immigrants who can't vote, Republicans benefit at the polls.
That doesn't seem obvious to you?

[countryjake]

210. Not much to be done about right-wing voters anyway...

most are set in their ways and don't approve of anyone who doesn't represent their own interests. Working class interests have never been right-wing interests, ever!

I've spent my entire life "pissing off right-wing voters" and I take great pleasure in it. It's the people, and the people alone, who change the course of world history.

I could care less about what conservatives think...the objective is to MAKE THEM TREMBLE!

[Critters2]

49. Try working for a living wage, so evryone has a decent life

[coalition_unwilling]

52. I'm unemployed but would settle for any job with a living wage if I could

get one. (I'm not sure what you mean by telling me to "Try working for a living wage.") Are you giving me a suggestion?

[Critters2]

55. Sorry, I was unclear

I should have said something like, "...working in support of living wage legislation" or "advocating a living wage for everyone" or something. I wasn't referring to YOUR wages, but to decent wages for everyone.

Sometimes I'm stupid. Whatcha gonna do? :shrug:

[coalition_unwilling]

58. I advocate a living wage for everyone (I think), if by that

advocating for a democratic socialist revolution is included.

[GRLMGC]

40. Thank you

Great post!

[theobscure]

41. open borders?

I'm afraid this whole debate has descended, like abortion and so many others, into a pseudo debate. You are either for completely open borders or you are a racist isolationist. Once you enter the debate you are either pigeonholed as one or the other. No wonder this country is so devoid of enlightened ideas.

I don't understand how you can have a functioning country and government without having some idea of who and how many people have claim to representation and the advantages of the government's functions. The only possible outcome of open borders is anarchy or one world government.

I understand that this is a progressive forum so maybe anarchy or one world government has mainstream appeal within the progressive community. Fine, it's an interesting debate to have. But I don't hear many progressives staking themselves to one of those end goals to lend some context to their positions on this debate.

On the other hand, you have the fundamentalist view which is, as usual, simple minded at best and fascist at worst.

As for me, I love the melting pot concept. I believe we should welcome as many people from every region of the world as we can economically absorb. There should be some legal procedure for this that includes a coherent, fair policy for any would-be immigrant to understand. We should also encourage temporary worker and educational visa programs that again have a legal process that must be followed.

One of the only reasons to have a government is for security purposes. If it were up to me, we'd adapt a non-interventionist foreign policy which would include bringing our troops home and dismantling the military industrial complex. Protecting our borders in my mind would be the only legitimate function of our scaled down military. They should be in position to thwart foreign aggression and prevent individuals from entering our country illegally.

I'm not the smartest person in the world by a long shot. But it boggles my mind that my view of immigration is unworthy of recognition as a legitimate and reasonable solution. While at the same time, the two "legitimate" camps of debate are guilty of intellectual dishonesty on one side and an intellectual dearth or depravity on the other.

[BurtWorm]

50. Why can't we economically afford the 11 million in question?

Haven't we already?

[theobscure]

66. amnesty

OK. Fine. Let me ask you this: Do you think giving amnesty to these 11M will encourage or discourage future illegal immigration? I think we all know the answer to that question.

I'd love to be able to say welcome one and all, forever and ever, amen. But I'm assuming that you, like myself, would expect all those welcomed into this country to receive full and equal benefit of our governments protection and services. How do you decide how much to tax in order to provide these protections and services when you don't have any idea of how many people you have to provide these protections and services to? How do you even go about knowing how many people you even have in your tax base? What is the advantage of being a declared and recognized legal citizen of the country? In fact, citizenship would become a distinct disadvantage.

Our smoke and mirrors economy is not going to survive forever. In fact, I think we're closer to collapse then we dare recognize. Again, maybe this would be a good thing for those who are in the anarchy or one world government camp. Again, they are revolutionary, progressive views that deserve examination. I just wish people would declare themselves so we have some proper context to have substantive debate with the potential for real solutions.

[BurtWorm]

70. You know they're paying into the system as we speak, right?

Not only through sales and other taxes, but they actually pay billions into SS by giving fake SS numbers. All those billions go into the system never to be collected.

One-world government has nothing to do with it. Nor does anarchy. It's just the way free markets really work. People go where the jobs are, and borders don't stop them.

[Critters2]

75. Spoken like a true, cheap labor Repug

Gotta love that invisible hand!

[BurtWorm]

77. What's the alternative? You like the Sensennbrenner plan?

Or the Buchanan plan? Which one are you behind?

[Critters2]

79. I like fining employers who hire undocumented workers

REAL fines, not the slaps on the wrist they get now.

Even more, I like paying workers a living wage, and encouraging union organizing. Those would seem like Dem values. Why isn't the Dem party working for them?

[BurtWorm]

81. Let's let them stay then.

And organize them. And get them a living wage. Let's take the fear of deportation off the table. Let them stay.

[nolabels]

134. If they just enforced the $5,000 a head fine for employers on.........

the books now, there wouldn't be a problem. The fact is OUR government has not been doing their job. It didn't matter if was either party because neither enforced. As always, crooked politicians want to blame the public for their failures :shrug:

[theobscure]

86. yes, they pay....

...to some degree. But to the extent that a working poor legal citizen does? I don't think so. I also don't agree that they don't collect. You're right they wouldn't be eligible for SS or other official benefits; but when they need assistance we are providing it indirectly, which we should.

I understand their motivation for coming. I empathize with them and don't blame them for coming. I wasn't suggesting that they were coming to force anarchy or one world government upon us. They are, however, the only possible outcomes to open borders. It simply can not be sustained. If economic implosion doesn't come first; it will manifest as a social and political explosion. The kind that result in such things as coup d'etats, ethnic cleansing, genocide, and class based strife.

[Critters2]

67. No, we haven't

the presence of undocumented workers at less than minimum wage has depressed wages across the board and cost the jobs of natural born American workers. The drive to the bottom has undermined the hard-won victories of the labor movement, and cost workers in most industries benefits of all kinds.

We have not "afforded" undocumented workers. We've barely survived them, and may not, ultimately.

But, lest I get called a recist or Repug or something...I hold responsible the cheap labor conservatives and opportunist politicians on both sides of the aisle. The workers are just taking advantage of a corrupt system. They didn't corrupt it.

[BurtWorm]

73. I'd like to see some citations to back up your claims.

Why are corporations outsourcing jobs to Asia if natural born Americans' wages are depressed by the presence of immigrants in this economy?

[sadiesworld]

160. I'm guessing that if the elites could figure out a way

to offshore construction, landscaping, childcare, etc., they would.

[Bridget Burke]

151. Please show us the figures that prove wages are depressed....

And what the hell do you mean by "natural born American workers"? Do you want to expel all Legal Immigrants, as well? Not a very good phrase for a "non-racist" to use.

[calmblueocean]

140. Kudos for a thoughtful post and welcome to DU.

I'm pretty much where you are -- let's increase legal immigration quotas, fund and technologize the INS so they actually have the organizational capacity to do their job, and then step up border security, as well. It doesn't seem like rocket science to me, but the debate goes on...

[Pooka Fey]

144. I generally avoid 'illegal immigration' threads for the reason you stated

in your opening sentence. But I'm breaking my own rule to say NICE POST and Welcome to DU. :hi:

And to very bravely add my .02, I'll say that this issue could successfully drive out any last 'loyal till the bitter end' blue collar workers still voting the democratic ticket. On Mike Malloy's show tonight, a caller from Madison WI shared the story that his brother didn't get a job as a janitorial supervisor because his spanish speaking ability wasn't of a high enough level to successfully manage the janitorial staff. Mike basically told the caller to quit whining - that employers can demand whatever job skills they want - if they want you to speak fluent Danish for a job in Hawaii, then if you want the job, just learn to speak Danish. Hearing Mike Malloy spouting out the 'Global Corporatist Manifesto' chapter, verse and line just about made my head spin.

Before anyone jumps on me for Americans being 'too lazy to learn foreign languages' - I score level 4 out of 6 in the standardized EU language test, 6 is fluent. That's after 2 years of university study and 1 on my own. Language acquisition is not something that one can achieve in one's 'spare time', however if I want a job in the country that I am as of now planning to immigrate to, LEGALLY, I need to be at native speaker level - '6'. In the country where I hope to live, asking a blue collar worker to speak a foreign language to get a job would probably cause massive public riots in the streets. They protect themselves constantly from encroachments of English language fluency demands being made upon their workers from American corps which set up satellite offices over there and then want to conduct business in English. This is a successful nation that attracts many immigrants, and yet they manage to preserve their language and culture, without feeling guilty about it. I guess our "nation of immigrants" mythology is too compelling to allow us that privilege here.

[fleabert]

42. excellent post. thanks. nt

[grace0418]

47. HOLY CRAP! For a second I thought my mother-in-law joined DU!!

My mother-in-law, a woman who emigrated here in her 30s from SE Asia, said something very similar to the title of this thread to me recently.

My husband was out of town on business so I was attending a family birthday party (his family) on my own. It was the day after 100,000 immigrants (mostly Mexican, but not exclusively) protested in downtown Chicago. I was sitting at a table full of my husband's aunties, trying to make small talk. This is not easy because I have nothing in common with these women and English is *definitely* their second language, but I was trying my best. Suddenly, my mother-in-law launches into this diatribe about how "the Mexicans want to take over this country and they expect to be able to come and go as they please. Isn't that GROSS?!"

I was completely horrified and all the other women didn't say a word.

I will admit that I haven't been following this issue very closely (it gets hard to keep up with everything these days), but I was reasonably certain things weren't as black and white as my m-i-l was declaring. And I definitely didn't agree with her outright bigotry. But not having actual facts at hand, I had little with which to refute her bile. I simply said "Well, I don't understand what's gross about wanting to come to America and work for a better life. And I think the situation is a bit more complicated than you might have been lead to believe."

"No, that's what is happening! They said it on the news!" she replied. :eyes:

Trying to remain calm and patient (and not cause a scene), I said "Well the newscasters always say things in a way that sounds the most sensational and extreme. It's really best to take what they say with a grain of salt until you can read further into the situation." I then immediately changed the subject because I could tell the other women were getting really uncomfortable. In my husband's culture, it's not so good for a daughter-in-law to be "talking back" to her m-i-l.

Things were going along fine until someone brought up Mayor Daley. My m-i-l made the most tenuous connection between Daley and the protests and she was off and running again.

I finally interrupted her by saying "Well, as the granddaughter of immigrants myself, I don't feel it's my place to turn around and close the door behind me. Who am I to decide that America should no longer welcome immigrants when my family immigrated here? I'd feel like a giant hypocrite." I was *hoping* that she would see how hypocritical she was being considering her own relatively recent immigration to this country. I don't think she caught on, but at least I got her to shut up. God, people are so freaking clueless. It depresses the shit out of me.

[glitch]

51. Don't assume everyone posting on DU is a Democrat, or even progressive.

I believe COINTELPRO is now legal again with the Patriot Act, so you can't judge every post as representative of DU.

(not saying that all disagreements are with moles, we are a boisterous bunch after all, just saying evaluate with that possibility in mind)

[Nutmegger]

53. Well said - recommended.

I'm so tired of the "OH MY GOD! IMMIGRANTS!" attitude not only here but in the US. What have we become?

With that said, the Repukes are probably going to use this as a good "wedge issue" since it resonates so well with their "base".

[Critters2]

78. The Repugs are split on this

The voting base wants tough immigration laws.

The funding base wants cheap immigrant labor.

[demgurl]

54. I think it is racist to let illegal immigration continue.

I have written about this before and stand by what I have said and I am not racist in the least bit. When we let the good folks come over and be taken advantage of we are being a racist. By not insisting they have a chance to become legal, we are subjecting them to less than minimum wage pay, substandard working conditions and possible harm. We complain about our minimum wage but imagine trying to survive on less than minimum wage and possibly risking life and limb because your illegal work conditions are not monitored. It is racist to let such treatment continue. (in my opinion)

Allowing immigrants a chance to become legal could only help all of us. Their wages would go up. They would have safer working conditions and they will be able to be legal contributors to our society. (I do not mean that strictly in the legal sense - these people have so much more to offer)If their jobs are legal then they will not only get paid more but more Americans may be willing to also do the jobs at a fair price - we will also get paid more.

There is nothing wrong with saying illegal activities should be stopped. I think most of us would agree we need to end drunk driving or even hard drug use. We can end illegal immigration but it is the solution, I think, that shows your true colors. Are you demanding an end to illegal immigration by saying they should all go back from where they came from or are you saying to end it by allowing more people to become legal?

[redherring]

56. I don't agree and I am an immigrant as well

You know something, I have been here since I was 18(I am 26 now), and coming here wasn't really easy. My mom worked for USAID(back in my country--I am of South Asian descent) for approximately 20 years before she qualified for the greencard. Naturally, since I was 18, my whole family was allowed to immigrant. Had I been 21 or older, I would not have been allowed to come here legally until my mom became an American herself. I have been an American for approximately 4 years now. My family did it COMPLETELY LEGALLY, and as I said, it wasn't easy. No offense to you personally, but the way I see it is that there are hundreds of thousands of legal immigrants as well as citizens that are WITHOUT jobs and I feel that corporate greed has a lot to do with hiring illegals. They want to make more profit, and hiring illegals and paying them under the table saves dollars for sure. Sure, America's unemployment rate may be 4.8%, but that is not a small number. 4.8% is probably millions of Americans who don't have jobs. That's too many unemployed Americans if you ask me. I cannot support illegal immigration. Furthermore, I also have a huge problem with H1B visa as well. Plus, the crux of the matter is that illegal immigrants get pregnant here, and these anchor babies instantly become citizens. By doing so, they have increased their chances of becoming American citizens.
There is the legal route and the illegal route. As far as I am concerned, staying here illegally is against American law. No way will I support illegal immigration. I don't care what anybody says.

[izzybeans]

59. Here's what I think of it:

http://tookjobs.ytmnd.com/

in solidarity. South Park parody of the rightwing mind. Damn Goobacks driving down wages for hard working murkins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goobacks

[David Zephyr]

60. Thanks!

I've posted here at the DU ad infinitum and I am 100% in your (our corner).

Great post !

[Minnesota Libra]

62. I used to live in an area where Mexican workers..........

.....outnumbered American workers. NOT because AMERICANS WOULDN'T DO THE WORK but only because Americans weren't even given the chance to do the work. So please forgive me if I not overly concerned with the fact that we might ".....offend many who live down here, in the border culture". I'm most concerned with AMERICAN WORKERS. If we close our border down tight Mexicans AND OTHER ILLEGAL ALIENS will find somewhere else to go.

[rene moon]

71. Uh,

People are not "Illegal Aliens". Sorry but I hate that word. Illegal immigrants, sure but aliens, no.

[Minnesota Libra]

80. Illegal alien means not from here and is here illegally so it fits. nt

[rene moon]

82. Nope, sorry it doesnt

I dont care what the "legal terms" are. Calling people aliens is gross.

[Minnesota Libra]

89. yea, and..........................

[WindRavenX]

94. immigrants are fucking PEOPLE

Jesus am I reading this shit?

(that wasn't directed towards you rene moon)

[Minnesota Libra]

99. The illegal alien issue is the only thing I disagree with Dems on nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

145. I agree

They aren't aliens.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Minnesota Libra]

91. "colored"? I mean illegal aliens regardless of color/race. nt

[RagingInMiami]

114. The word "alien" dehumanizes the immigrants

And it is not only offensive, it is outdated.

The fact that you probably know this and insist on using the word anyway reveals a lot about your character.

[Beausoir]

125. Using the term "alien" is disgusting. These are people.

Shame.

[GRLMGC]

126. Seriously

but look at the source

[podnoi]

132. Spare the word play

Alien is just terminology.

I am as much a humanitarian as the next, and quite frankly I have no problem with hispanic power, after all the Hispanic heritage tends to be populist.

However, we simply cannot survive without order. While I do not agree with the way repubs approach security, there is indeed a threat. And having massive movement across the borders is an insecure situation and like a lot of other problems is a threat to our welfare. We have already had one "amnesty" and it increased the problem. We simply can't allow this kind of chaos, no matter what ethnic background, black,white, whatever.

It has nothing to do with racism.

[RagingInMiami]

135. Deal with it because it's not going to stop

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RagingInMiami]

162. Not that you stereotype or anything

My curt "deal with it" response was a reaction to Podnoi's "save the word play. Alien is just terminology."

It takes a lot to offend me, but I was offended. Do we still call Black Americans "colored" or "negro" and then tell them to "save the word play, that it's just terminology", when they point out that they don't like those words?

In other words, my response was not even directed towards you.

But that didn't stop you from comparing me to the stereotypical Latino male who is "arrogant, superior and rude" and "arrogant, macho and condescending."

Then you say that "Latino men grow up and treat women as equals." That is a topic for a whole another debate, but I can assure you that having been raised by a divorced Latina mother, I treat ever women with the respect she deserves.

I hope you teach your daughter not to make blanket statements that lump entire ethnicities into a single category.

[Zookeeper]

176. I described to you MY EXPERIENCE.

I moved to S.F. with absolutely no preconceived notions about Mexican men. They made this impression all by themselves.

I'm sure you treat your mother well, but the Hispanic men I ran across did not treat me well. (Maybe they would be nicer if I were their mother.)

I apologize for interjecting myself into the conversation, but after reading these immigration threads for the last few nights (including yours), your comment came across as arrogant and aggressive. I realize it's "Chicano Pride" week on DU, but, really, do the rest of us (African-America, Native American, white and our new LEGAL immigrants from Somalia, Ethiopia and Laos) have to give up our livable wages, culture, communities, schools to citizens of another country who are here uninvited? I don't live in the Southwest, this has never been Mexican homeland, yet Vincente Fox opened a Mexican consulate here last year. I love diversity, but why is a Hispanic majority "diversity" and a white or black majority isn't?

Business is at the heart of this problem. Forget building a wall, forget making people felons, forget making people squeal on their neighbors. Businesses should be nailed to the wall for hiring illegal workers.

However, without blaming, could we actually ask Mexican citizens who are here illegally to take some responsibility for what they are doing? The attitude of letting "brown" people off-the-hook (they just want to work) isn't all that different from the old, racist idea of the "noble savage." I know Mexican citizens who are here illegally, right now. They aren't stupid. I think they can grasp the economic reality of their willingness to work for slave wages.

So, there's my first rant of the day...

Although this immigration debate on DU is charged and probably bound to leave some lingering bad feelings, I have learned a lot from reading the opinions on both sides of the issue. And it certainly is helping me refine my views on the matter.

[Bridget Burke]

178. You have a problem with a Mexican consulate in your city?

Please explain.

[Zookeeper]

183. Having a Mexican consulate open in a city...

that until recently had only a handful of legal Mexican-American citizens, is a pretty clear indication of the rapid growth of Mexican citizens who are here illegally.

Why open one here? In part to issue matricular consular cards, that LEGAL Mexican-American citizens have no use for. The head of the consulate is the former diplomatic advisor to Vincente Fox. The consulate exists to prop up Fox's corrupt administration with money sent back to Mexico by Mexican citizens.

You may find this article interesting:

Mexico's Undiplomatic Diplomats

http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_4_mexico.html

[Bridget Burke]

184. Consulates in a city mean that the city is internationally important.

Your link doesn't work.

[Zookeeper]

185. I had a feeling I was missing a hyphen.

Well, there are suddenly a number of cities who have become "internationally important" enough to open a Mexican consulate right about the time there is a huge influx of Mexican citizens.

I'm not sure St. Paul has otherwise increased it's international importance that much in the last five or ten years.

You have made me curious to check out how many other countries have consulates in Minnesota, though.

[Name removed]

191. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zookeeper]

211. My apologies for being snarky.

I just read too many posts that never would have been tolerated if the word "white" had been substituted for "hispanic."

The demonstrations have elicited a strong show of support for Hispanics in this country, which is good. But, everyone shouldn't be expected to celebrate citizens of another country being here illegally, just because they're Hispanic.

[podnoi]

190. "Alien" is not a color or ethnic term

I think folks have been watching to many sci-fi movies. I believe the term "Alien" came about well before it was used to describe someone from outer space.

[Bridget Burke]

152. "We cannot survive without ORDER"?

Law is one thing. But I get nervous when people start bleating about "Order."

[podnoi]

189. Order vs chaos - Not in the repub way

[indigo32]

63. Amen

:applause:

[Redstone]

64. No Irish Need Apply!

Every single immigrant group has gone through the same crap the Mexicans are going through now.

I guess we never will learn, will we? You'd think that after going through the xenophobic crap themselves, the prior groups of immigrants would be just a bit more understanding.

Redstone

[TheBaldyMan]

88. well they do have a point discriminating against the Irish

as they are a bunch of priest-ridden feckless drunks

[Redstone]

95. At least the Irish side of my family was!

Not sure about the rest of them.

Redstone

[Jim Warren]

102. Know why God invented whiskey?

So the Irish wouldn't rule the world.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[klook]

69. The anti-immigrant reactionaries ignore reality

Illegal immigrants not only "suck up resources" here, they work here, they buy goods and services, they contribute to communities, they raise families here. In short, they do exactly what my ancestors and millions of others did--scramble to make a go of it in America, and in the course of doing so, change the course of history. What's so scary about that?

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
--"The New Colossus," Emma Lazarus

By the way, I look forward to the day (which I know will never happen in my lifetime) when there is no such thing as "illegal immigration."

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...
--"Imagine," John Lennon

[Critters2]

72. The let's unionize 'em and pay 'em a living wage

[glitch]

100. And watch the Republican's heads explode. Ah sweet justice. nt

[klook]

137. I'm all for that! (eom)

[sentelle]

83. Immigration? or just "Illegal Immigration"

Let me preface my thoughts this way: I had to deal with the immigration process a few years ago, when I fell in love, and married my wife (from overseas).

Lately My wife asks why we did things in the way we did (i.e. go through the permanent resident process) and not just come to the US like everyone else?

I don't think anyone is trying to close the borders to legal immigration. Legal immigration is the hallmark that has made the US what it is.

At the same time, should we encourage people to break the law? Yes, illegal immigation is against the law, not only here, but in most countries. Would you really expect to be able to take a boat to the UK, or any of the EU nations, and live there without some sort of immigration process? Would you expect to walk to Mexico, Guatamala (forgive my spelling, I'm not in a mood to fight with my dictionary), or anywhere in South America without some arrangement with the respective governments? Can you conceive of what the penalty would be if we were caught in any of those places as an illegal immigrant? What would be the penalty for the employer or whomever who hid us from immigration authorities?

Should we just let anyone into the country willy-nilly, or should there be a process to patriate the people that want to come here, a process to insure that those who come here are not guilty of crimes, atrocities or Moral turpitude? There is such a process. Its called 'legal immigration'.

I personally believe that all who legally enter the US add value to the culture here, but ultimately, we are a nation of laws, and should expect nothing less of those who want to live and/or work here.

There are many places in this country where illegal immigration occurs where it is not being done by the latin american community. Pick an ocean for instance. Whether you are an illegal Russian, an Illegal Mexican, an illegal canadian, an illegal asian, you are still violating US law, and should be treated in precisely the same manner as anyone else who violates US law.

[Klukie]

129. This major truth is lost on so many!

I really think the passion of the issue tends to strip away all common sense.

[Triana]

141. well said sentelle....

..my sentiments exactly. I'm all for LEGAL immigration. Besides everything else, it's a matter of national security, too.

[Bridget Burke]

173. We have had posts against ALL Immigration.

And at least one thread devoted to "Why do we let ANYONE in?"

[Siyahamba]

201. Congratulations on being able to sponsor your wife.

My partner cannot sponsor me because we are of the same sex. What do you suggest to couples who are unable to immigrate through marriage, just sit apart and wait?

Now, I'd never do it because my partner would receive stiff fines and/or jail time and I'd be barred from reentering the country if we were caught. But if one partner being in the US illegally is the only way a couple can be together due to a heterosexist immigration system, then I'm certainly not going to turn them in.

[KharmaTrain]

90. Mobilize...Be Silent No More...And VOTE!!!

I was just in Tucson and saw a very cosmopolitan city...far more homogeneous with the Hispanics and anglos as I see here in Chicago.

The hispanics, like blacks and other lower income groups have long been a supressed minority "kept in their place" by those with money and power. Mexicans aren't coming here to "invade" this country...they're doing the same thing my grandparents and others have done...trade a hard days work for a hard days pay. They're a victim of two corrupt systems on both sides of the border that has led to millions living in substandard political and economic conditions. The time has come for the hispanic voice to finally be heard...especially where Repugnicans are concerned.

Just like they tune out the blacks as "being on the plantation", Repugnicans have long tuned out Hispanics as just being "lazy bandits". Both groups were used to build up the racist Repugnican machines in the South (attracting the old segregationists) and the Southwest and West by giving the same treatment to Hispanics...specifically Mexicans.

While I long ago learned never to speak for anyone on DU but myself, let me assure you there is a lot of solidarity here with you and with the real causes of the immigration "crisis" (if such a thing exists)...and it won't be fixed with building walls and making felons out of 11 million hard working people. But let the Repugnicans keep playing with this issue...I can't see a way they win.

Peace...

[Joanne98]

93. More of my two cents.......

I'm supporting the House bill 100%. Make them felons and deport them then build a fence.As someone who grew up in CA on the border I detest illegal immigration. In fact I know alot of Mexicans born in this country who also hate illegals. It doesn't have anything to do with race. It's called EXPLOITATION! If you're pro-union, pro-environment, anti-redevelopment, anti-housing bubble, anti-globalization and most of all anti-slavery. E-mail your senator right now and tell them your a democrat who supports the house bill.
Joanne98
PS. I forgot anti-police state.

[countryjake]

98. Sorry, it's that House bill, HR4437, that is ILLEGAL!

The bill, effectively, creates nothing but a "police-state" and advocates discrimination against a huge population of working people in this country. Not one damn thing Pro-Union about it! It goes against every single notion that our Constitution represents...no human is "illegal" and HR4437 does absolutely nothing to end exploitation.

Please, explain to me how that bill goes against globalization?

[fujiyama]

147. Have you actually read the bill?

or do you know anything about it? You don't have to support a nasty draconian bill like that to oppose illegal immigration (and I certainly favor stronger border security and don't favor general amnesty).

I oppose both, but the bill ignores reality and wastes time and resources adding punitive measures. It also punishes anyone that "aids" an undocumented person, and adds incredibly inhumane restrictions on asylum seekers as well.

How much are you willing to spend to "kick them out"? Should many that have American born children also be forced to leave?

These issues are much more nuanced than people would like to admit. Tancredo and Sensenbrenner are meanspirited ass holes and they don't give a shit about you, me or any other American. This is about a xenophobic election ploy. They will use this as a great wedge issue like others. They've found another group to attack now.

[Bridget Burke]

179. No, I won't e-mail Cornyn & Hutchison to tell them I'm on their side.

I'm a Democrat & won't support a Republican bill.

[demosincebirth]

96. Bien dicho!

[in_cog_ni_to]

101. DITTO!

:thumbsup:

[xxqqqzme]

106. I think the protests/demonstrations

have been impressive - anglos could learn a few things about organizing from thir Latina/o cousins. We should be so lucky 2 have half this many turn out for peace demonstrations. We are fighting our own local oppression thru gilchrist backing the Costa Mesa, CA mayor. Everytime we think we've made progress some idiot white male drags it back into the hate rhetoric arena.

[radio4progressives]

122. Totally Agree.. Anglos need to Join Latina/o causes, and then they'll join

ours, like the war in iraq, the domestic spying and a number of other issues that we have ..

it's a matter of joining our struggles together, realizing we all share the same common bonds, and common enemies.

[kpete]

108. Right On!

My family too has been in Mexico, Texas and California for at least 200 years. We have been going back and forth --- ignoring the border. It just depends where the action is. Many of them live in Mexico, some in Venezuela, lots in L.A. and some in Texas. The border is a non reality to us. We have always lived in this part of the world. We are good people, hardworking people. Some of my family are prejudice against the newer immigrants. I am not.

I strongly agree that solutions must be well thought out and humane. We are all brothers and sisters. Let us not lose sight of that. Color of skin is meaningless.....

[qanda]

112. You should hear C-SPAN in the morning

It's non-stop Mexican bashing when they talk about immigration. All I know is that if this is what progress is then I'd rather be behind the times. The thing that kills me is to hear many of my own black people talking about we don't want them in *our* country taking over *our* jobs-- please just shoot me now!!!!!

[radio4progressives]

120. The Racists Propaganda Machine Has been Working big time...

[Chovexani]

113. Word!

Good lord, reading DU the last few days has felt like that "Goobacks" South Park episode where time travellers from the future came back looking for jobs in present-day South Park.



DEY TOOK ER JOBS!!!!

:eyes:

[radio4progressives]

116. So Glad to See Intelligent Responses to this Insanity in our Country

:kick: :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Taverner]

117. RIGHT ON!!

Personally, I think if we're going to open the borders for trade, we should open them for workers as well. Otherwise, what's the point?

Oh, and California should be a bilingual state - but that's a whole different casa de gallos....

[Kashka-Kat]

119. Can we make it legal then? If there are arguments for that... then

sure, lets hear it. How can something be "criminalized" which is already illegal? I'm honestly just puzzled by your stance -- either we have a global state (or some kind of North American alliance) where people have freedom to live where they please on the planet ... or we don't! So far we don't. I can't go live in Canada or Costa Rica or some other Bush-free place (yep I've looked into it) ... maybe if I had that freedom, I might have a different point of view.

[Babel_17]

121. I can understand your frustration but ....

you're painting with a broad brush.

Labor in the US depends on the law of the land being enforced. And the US doesn't have a draconian immigration policy.

We've already had one amnesty and our government assured us they would make sure it was the last one we'd need.

Ok, that's water under the bridge but I have concerns that we'll see that cycle repeated.

Fwiw, in many parts of the country many of us are feeling wage pressure due to the way illegal immigrants are being employed.

They're getting employed in significant numbers by many fly by night construction and home improvement companies.

I'd love to see these people be treated better. But please, don't ignore those of us who have valid concerns.

Let's remember who benefited from this exploitation and deal with them first.

If we do that a lot more people will be more enthusiastic about taking measures to get a better deal for those who are suffering due to their status of being illegal immigrants.

The republican's aren't going to demand accountability from employers. How about we democrats who differ on some points of this issue all get together behind that first?

I don't expect it to be a popular notion but I think it will be foolish to start the process of legally assimilating these workers without first getting things straight with these employers.

This is a really emotional issue for those who have been suffering pressure on their wages and job security due to these exploiters.

[radio4progressives]

123. that's a different issue - this is where we join common cause

we join the latina/o community on their immigration struggle, and they'll gladly join us on in solidarity on living and merit wage/union struggles.. they'll do it because it benefits everyone.

[Seabiscuit]

127. THANK YOU! ... for that breath of fresh air.

[tlsmith1963]

130. I Heard...

that the kids in San Diego walked out of school today over this. And of course some stupid anchorman had to crack, "I bet they did this just to get out of class!" How does he know, anyway? Maybe a lot of those kids really *did* care about this issue. If they did, then I am proud of them, too. I am tired of the scapegoating that is going on. And I worry that the border wall they want to build may be used to keep us *in*, not necessarily to keep the illegal immigrants out. I wouldn't put anything past these fascist jerks who are running our country.

Btw, I am not latina. I'm white, although my cousins have some Mexican ancestry.

Tammy

[hunter]

148. Kids walked out of school all over California.

A lot of them have parents and grandparents and aunts and uncles who are undocumented workers.

These high school kids will be voting very soon now...

[Hubert Flottz]

133. We need to replace the Deadbeats in Congress who have" jobs

they don't want to do!"

[MissWaverly]

138. I'm with you

there are 11 million people, who are part of the life blood of this country, this is
a cheap fix for a bad election year. Yes, people need jobs, but how many Amercians are
willing to work w/o health care and social security. If these people get hurt on the job,
it's their look out, with the high cost of health care in this country, how many of us
would want to be roofers under those conditons? American needs to provide jobs that
provide a decent living, we need to take make the country we have outsourced and that is
not the fault of the illegals. We need better benefits, better wages for all. We need
to pay for the products we buy fairly and promote job growth in Mexico as well. What
we are wasting on stupid walls that they will climb over, we could be using for good
will economic programs.

[gardenista]

139. K & R

[Solly Mack]

142. well said

[fujiyama]

143. I agree with most of what you said

and I am tired of race baiting xenophobia. I am especially appauled when I hear things like "kick 'em out". What is that supposed to mean? Practically, how do you go about kicking out millions of people, many of whom have children that are American citizens being raised here now? Hell, I heard one particularly nasty comment espousing putting people on box cars if need be.

However, illegal immigration is not a good idea. The US needs to have better border security and I definetely think undocumented immigration is a threat in several ways. There's the obvious security threat for one. Then there is also the problem of exploitation and people not being paid the prevailing wage or even the minimum wage. This of course has the potential to drive down wages, though I haven't seen it being conclusively proven.

The keys are to make sure no one is being exploited (increase labor standards here and this shouldn't be so difficult in a wealthier nation if it weren't for such awful pols in congress - better wages, increase penalties for corporations that hire illegal workers), and encourage Mexico to fix the situation there as well - don't let multinational corporations exploit workers there, fight corruption, etc. The Mexican government has to know the US has finite resources and cannot indefinetely support all those impovershed there.

Ultimately, it's worth considering just increasing the caps of those in Mexico that wish to enter to more realistic levels, though I would rather not give preference to those that entered illegally.

A fair trade treaty needs to be written up replacing the alphabet soup of "free trade" treaties we have now. As it stands, everyone but a small and already wealthy elite is profitting.

[The Straight Story]

146. So why come here illegally and outside the system?

Is it because Mexico is sucking? Should we just open all borders, the world over, and let people just go where they want?

I looked up emigrating to Mexico, it ain't easy. So folks want to come here instead of changing things at home, ok cool - but can they at least respect the basic laws we have regarding coming here?

and ensure that future immigrants enter legally, we must work to bring immigrants out of the shadow and encourage legal entrance, not criminalize and force immigrants in the US to hide.

And how do we ensure future folks enter legally? Why should they. Just show up, breaking our laws, and we will eventually be accepting of it.

I don't care what country they come from. We have some basic laws we all have to follow - from wearing our seat belts to smoking. Why should we openly accept people who just don't care about our laws?

Peronsally I love the mexicans I have met, no issues with them at all. Nor with the iranians I know. My co-worker is a canadian who came here legally.

We have people who go through hell, legally, to come here. They go through all the hoops, from all over the world (Sassan from Iran, Mahammad from Somalia, my one engineer whose wife came here from Thailand, and many more). Why should we just welcome people who ditch the line and say 'well, they are here so screw it?'

Sassan's family fled terrible persecution to get here, and he and his folks went through all the right channles to get here. He just became a citizen last year after 14 years. But even though his family fled hell they still did what was required of them legally. Why should mexicans (or anyone else) be treated differently???

[Vinca]

153. Great post. I've been on the verge of leaving DU

because those of us who believe in enforcing immigration laws are being painted as racist. It really makes me mad. Last night I was checking the Canadian immigration site because my husband and I are planning to move there in about 3 years when we "retire." He's a Canadian-American, I'm an American. He can sponsor me so it's not the long song and dance ordinary immigrants go through, but even so he has to provide proof that we'll be living in Canada and that he's a bona fide Canadian: job confirmation, property deed, birth records, etc. I wouldn't think of just crossing the border and setting up housekeeping. Why should our borders be any easier to cross? I sympathize with the plight of illegal immigrants, but the solution isn't as simple as declaring everyone legal and going on about our business.

[screembloodymurder]

157. If I want to live in Canada or Mexico

I have to apply for a visa or citizenship.

[MrTriumph]

158. The purpose of the Berlin was to keet people IN, not people OUT.

Whine as you might, but Mexico is the problem. If it were not a failed economic state, Mexicans would not feel compelled to leave their country.

[formercia]

159. What's the big deal with immigration ?

It's just another bogeyman the Administration is throwing out there to throw us off balance and turn us against each other. The Terrorism bogeyman is wearing thin and they need another cause to polarize the electorate.

They get Sensenbrenner to go on TV and spout his Jim Crow racism to drive the wedge even deeper. The only thing that was missing was the rose colored glasses and the Smokey the Bear hat. He would be a good spokesman for the KKK.

Mexicans are Americans just like us and they are repopulating territory we stole not so fair and square from them a Century and a half ago. The War with Mexico was fought with an agenda, very similar to Iraq. Trumped-up charges and a Manifest Destiny.

Don't buy into their hate. If you have to hate someone, direct it at the Administration,they are the bete noir in this nasty game.

[Bridget Burke]

180. There is certainly no Immigration CRISIS!

Could immigration laws be improved? Certainly!

Wouldn't Fair Labor Practices help our country--& every country? Yes! (How many of those opposing "illegal immigration" to save The American Worker have previously expressed their solidarity with labor?)

What news stories have DU'ers ignored to feed this fake crisis?

[BR_Parkway]

161. Some of my ancestors lost their jobs to invading Europeans - buffalo

hunting, fish and wildlife management, original organic farming.

Another case of "we got ours, screw everyone else"

[Finder]

163. Appalled as well, good post. n/t

[baby_mouse]

164. ARIBA ARIBA!

Crowds of Illegal Mariachi Bands Decimate Music Inustry

Locals express dismay, joi de vivre, etc.

[jeffrey_X]

165. Great post!

I completely agree with you.

[savemefromdumbya]

166. If people want to come into the country they can but

work permits can be issued and stamped renewed at the borders. People can come and go. If incoming people want to stay permantly and apply for green and then citizenship they should be allowed to. I think for security reasons there should be some ID given like a passport/drivers license at ports of entry/airports/border patrol. There should be no border walls as they should be no need for them. America should be seen as a friendly country. After all it is made up of mostly immigrants like me.

The tricky thing is the healthcare for incoming people not many businesses can afford healthcare for their incoming workers.

[medeak]

167. have 3 generations of hispanics working for me

and Grandpa goes back to Mexico in winter...hardest working employees (of 70) we have.

[DemVet]

168. Bullshit!!!! Bullshit!!!

What about "illegal" don't you understand?

If the Mexicans want to come, there is a process. There are laws. Let THEM follow the laws.

My wife was born in an Asian country and for her to come to this country, she had to apply for a visa.

She then followed the LEGAL process to become a citizen.

EVERYONE else should have to do the same.

[hunter]

169. Rene Moon, you've provoked me to post my first Journal entry.

But I posted it on skinner's thread because there are too many people on your justly inflamatory thread who I want to flame and I simply don't have the time.

:dilemma:

[mimitabby]

170. many of us (ME for one) are highly sympathetic

my grandparents were italian teenagers who were not considered white either when they came to this
country.
I am so proud of the people who are standing up and marching in LA and all over the country.
I am glad the brownies are here :)

[northzax]

172. tell me, how did they get here?

I assume on a boat, that stopped at an immigration check point? Where they were legally allowed into the country?

[Bridget Burke]

181. Yes, they stopped at an immigration check point.

After they were found to be free of obvious disease, they were let in to the USA.

No quotas, no high-priced immigration lawyers, no sponsors, no difficulties at all. Even though it was 99% easier to immigrate legally (for white people back them), many of my ancestors DID face prejudice & xenophobia, though.

[CanonRay]

171. Every one of those 10-20 Million

"immigrants", in addition to entering the country illegaly, are using SOMEBODY'S Social Security number (as they can't get one), which IS a felony under Title 42 of the United States Code. Are they using yours? I worked such cases for Social Security for over 20 years, so I know what I'm talking about.

[OzarkDem]

174. Agree - limted legal immigration is ok

The fraud and security problems, not to mention the taxpayer cost related to large scale illegal immigration is unacceptable.

[hunter]

177. Not really.

Most employers know very well which employees are undocumented, and even if these employees have false social security cards, the employers have enough sense not to run the fraudulant identification numbers through any government agency.

If you knew you were hiring an undocumented worker as a housekeeper, would you fill out all the proper legal paperwork? Probably not, because your cheap ass knows a legal worker has to be paid more and can better assert their rights as an employee. Finding good help is difficult and you'd be greatly inconveninced if the INS came by and carted off your best workers.

[Critters2]

209. Actually, it appears someone was using mine.

Had a long conversation with someone at the SSA about it, after receiving a letter asking me to verify my residence and place of employment. I called to ask what was up, and this very kind woman told me that those letters are sent out when two people are using the same SSN on their w-4's. I was appalled, but she was very nonchalant about it. Seems it happens all the time. She assured me that it probably wasn't being used for any other purpose, and that the employer probably did it, but for an illegal immigrant.

What part of "illegal" are we having trouble with?

[mvd]

175. Good post.

Some people treat illegal immigrants as not even human. Remember that many illegal immigrants come from harsh conditions. The human side of anyone should at least want immigrants that came from such conditions to be able to apply for citizenship. At the same time, if we raise the minimum wage, it will allow Americans to be more competitive with the illegal immigrants. JAILING illegal immigrants is ridiculous IMO. Our country's image is hurt enough.

[APPLE314]

186. and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming

and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming and coming

and that's the truth.

[LittleClarkie]

192. "The board" has no attitude

Some of the people on the board, on the other hand, might.

Yer brush is alittle broad.

[HEyHEY]

193. What's the problem? Mexican girls are hot

[LittleClarkie]

194. Is it fair to those who went through the system legally

for those who have not gone through the system legally to be granted amnesty and become citizens?

That's one question I have.

However, legality aside...I acknowledge that there are millions of illegal immigrants in this country. Many business rely on their hard work. It would be nice if they could be granted some sort of legal status, is all.

[HEyHEY]

195. Thing is...

In my view, the first illegals were the folks on the Mayflower. So, if they didn't have to go through legal channels, why should anyone else lookig for a better life?

[cornermouse]

196. I respectfully disagree.

We can't simply move to Mexico and become a citizen. They have laws preventing that and since it's their country, not ours, we must and should respect that. While I understand that they have trouble getting jobs at home, I see no reason why illegal immigrants from Mexico or anywhere else should be allowed to enter our country illegally and be rewarded with citizenship.

And sorry to disappoint you, but its not about "brownies". Its about respect for our laws.

[B Calm]

198. Guest worker program = CHEAP LABOR Lets don't make this

out to be anymore than what it is! It's a war against labor.

[dogday]

200. RUN FOR YOUR LIVES AND YOUR GALLBLADDERS

.......:sarcasm:They bring food to destroy us from within.......:sarcasm:

[Minnesota_Lib]

212. I lived and worked in a Cal town that had lots of immigrant workers…

One day, a sweet young kid that was working as a temp for the state agency I worked for invited me to her home for dinner. I went and was the better for it. Her family was dirt poor but they cooked up a great Mexican dinner for me and treated me like a king. I was overwhelmed and totally humbled by these great people. The term “Salt of the Earth” comes to mind.

After that, I was invited to many funerals, weddings and parties in town. I came to love these immigrants for their generosity, good humor and unwavering optimism no matter how bad times were for them. I am a better person because of that experience...and this country is a better place because of them.