People are going BATSHIT crazy of immigration here...

[Solon]

DAMN I haven't heard some crazy shit coming out of people's keyboards over this one issue. Before these people start jumping down my throat over this characterization, why not actually think of some solutions that actually

WORK!!!!

Seriously folks, while I recognize that the illegal immigration issue is a problem, there are solutions out there that will NOT turn us into "Fortress Amerika, Uber Alles!!!!" The first part is to increase funding to INS to investigate the EMPLOYERS of undocumented workers, and when caught, fine the companies with an amount like 20 grand per day per worker until they stop violating the law. Hell, make it even more interesting and DOUBLE the fine for every day they are in violation of the law after they are caught, from 20 grand to 40 to 80, etc. Keep that up and we will have a lot more companies hiring a lot more citizens than undocumented workers. Next, the Hillary proposal would actually be useful to a limited extent, but only if said workers would come out as undocumented workers. One thing you could tie into the proposal is my fine plan with a refinement of sorts, Employers who ENCOURAGE their undocumented workers to register with INS for temporary work visas will NOT face fines, however, they would face all the minimum wage and labor laws just as if these workers were citizens.

See, the biggest problem I have with this whole immigration issue is the black/white thinking that goes along with it, it is NOT a decision between building an electrical fence for several THOUSAND miles of border or having it completely open. Nor would locking up these desparate people in prison a solution either, all we would do is shift the burden onto the already overburdened prison system, plus it wouldn't be a deterrent either. Hell, if you want a true deterrent, impose the death penalty, without trial, to all illegal immigrants, and I think we can all agree that that is simply too extreme, not to mention cruel. The Hillary/Church plan is a decent start, but I don't think it goes really far enough to REDUCE the amount of Illegal Immigration into this country. Another change I would make to it is a cutoff date for application for worker visas, this includes some type of proof of residency for those who were already in this country BEFORE the bill is passed, and those afterwards cannot apply and face deportation. This is how far we can go on our side of the border.

[knowbody0]

1. the solution IMHO is to penalize the employers who exploit

these workers.

[Solon]

2. I like my exponential penalty idea...

Some company tries to delay a judgement for a week(7 full days) and they would owe the government 2,560,000 dollars, no bullshit, no appeals, and that's PER UNDOCUMENTED WORKER. That should be enough of a penalty.

[SammyWinstonJack]

9. bu$hco and the cheap labor repugs will never do that.

[Canuckistanian]

65. That's the key here

Until serious penalties are given out to employers who repeatedly break the laws, the discussion is moot.

[DBoon]

3. I'd make all employers hire immigrants thru a union hiring hall

at union rates under a union contract

[Solon]

5. I like that idea...

use it to FORCE employers to hire union immigrant laborers who register for a visa, making it a condition for waiving fines when caught.

[DBoon]

6. That way US wages aren't driven down by illegal labor

and the workers are paid well and have better working conditions, and have a stake in the American system

If there really are jobs that native born Americans just won't do, then employers shouldn't mind too much if the people that WILL do these jobs are union, right?

[Solon]

7. In fact, it would have the opposite effect...

First, it would increase Union Membership DRASTICALLY, and in addition it would force Non-Union shops to increase wages across the board, that sounds like an excellent idea.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

59. day care, elder care are two ways that they take on tough, lowprice

jobs that are impossible to fill with US citizens.

Seriously, changing bedpans of 90 yr old senile, sometimes violent folks for minimum wage? Those jobs are always going unfilled in big cities.

[struggle4progress]

74. Those jobs shouldn't pay minimum wage. eom

[Toots]

63. Except most don't hire laborers they hire sub-contractors

People who contract their labor and are not paid hourly wages. There will be no Davis-Bacon on the farms...

[DBoon]

64. Workers gotta control the hiring process

same as when dockworkers unionized in the 1930's replacing the shape up with a union controlled hiring hall

Subcontracting to evade responsibility has to go. period.

A just solution to the immigration dilemma requires us to radically change how we deal with labor.

[NoAmericanTaliban]

4. Its a matter of selective enforcement - the immigrants are made into

felons while the employers are not punished, even though there are plenty of existing laws prohibiting the hire of illegal immigrants. If the will was there, employers could be made to verify the legal status of their workers & the exiting laws enforced.

[rocktivity]

8. DING DING DING! NoAmericanTaliban, you're our grand prize winner!

...the immigrants are made into felons while the employers are not punished, even though there are plenty of existing laws prohibiting the hire of illegal immigrants...

This is what bothers me about the proposed laws--their insincerity. They don't prevent people from entering the country illegally, and they don't punish businesses for hiring them. Common sense dictates that "reforming" illegal immigration would start there.

Bush has spoken of a guest worker program, and these protests play right into his hands. He WANTS these people to stay in the country because it allows his cheap labor corporate friends to push down wages, and if he can turn them into to legal citizens, he can also turn them into lifelong Repub voters. THAT'S the only reason why he would care about them!

:headbang:
rocknation

[NoAmericanTaliban]

13. Don't forget that Reagan gave amnesty to illegal immigrants

but then again he created most of them by waging wars in central america.

[mia]

10. Find US workers who are willing to work as hard as immigrants.

A friend of mine works as a manager for a large, nationwide construction company. He says that, in general, the Latin American laborers (hired by subcontractors) work harder than their US counterparts in almost every area. They also have a better safety record. The issue of accident prevention
is one of the biggest concerns in the construction business.

[stillcool]

11. so it's the US workers fault?.....

or maybe just the poor, ignorant, and perhaps non-white US worker that's at fault?

[mia]

14. No

He said race isn't the issue. They want to get the job done well with as few accidents as possible.

[Solon]

15. Correction, he wants to shave a few pennies off the labor budget. n/t

[U4ikLefty]

42. I'd like to see stats to back this up.

[BringEmOn]

70. Fewer accidents or fewer reported accidents?

[Solon]

12. OK, so what happens...

Do people who either are born citizens in this country or earn it legally somehow less productive, and if so, how the fuck does that make sense? What this friend of yours is actually saying is that they will do it for far cheaper than American workers, and that's the bottom line.

[NoAmericanTaliban]

16. Its about cost benefit economics - employers save costs & get the benefits

when hiring illegal immigrants; & they do it without fear of punishment & with complete impunity.

[Solon]

19. Exactly...

Hence the reason why I believe in punitive fines being imposed on them, the larger the amount the better, no limit and no appeal, these Corporations are NOT people, and shouldn't even be allowed access to the legal system the way they do now.

[NoAmericanTaliban]

28. Not only should employers be fined but jail time too for big offenders

Tyson Chicken was caught a few years ago having assisted illegals in crossing the border & then bused them to their chicken processing plants. They were fined something riduclusly low like $5000. If some of these execs had served some jail time other companies would think twice about breaking the law.

[Solon]

31. No club fed either, state pens with multi-year sentences...

that I can get behind!

[mia]

18. Finding people who will do the work well and safely

is the bottom line. The prevention of accidents is the #1 priority in this business.

[Solon]

20. No, whoever is the lowest bidder is what matters in this business...

I should know, I know a few Union Carpenters in the area that are hard up for work, even though we have been experiencing a building boom, they are almost always outbid by immigrant worker firms.

[mia]

23. That's true too.

With the building boom, skilled carpenters should have no problem finding jobs.

[sadiesworld]

22. Are you referring to illegal latino immigrants having better safety

records or latinos generally?

[mia]

25. Not talking about illegals at all, but Latinos in general.

[Solon]

29. So Americans do work as hard as immigrants, thanks for clearing that up.

Seriously, is this a racial thing for you or something?

[mia]

43. What does race have to do with it?

I'm talking about immigrants. A high percentage of them happen to be Latin American. US citizen workers span the spectrum of races.

I suggest that immigrants are more eager for work and see opportunity to make a better life. I think it's always been that way. We Americans tend to take our good life for granted. We're threatened when others come and do our jobs better, often for less pay.

[U4ikLefty]

45. You are relating anectdotal evidence as if it were fact.

Perhaps you could point me to the study that points to your assertion that immigrants have a higer productivitgy rate & lower accident rate as American contractors. This study must take into account that these immigrants must be LEGAL since you weren't talking about illegal immigration.

[mia]

50. I'd be interested in finding a study too.

This is purely anacdotal. The information comes from the experiences of one person managing a construction business. What I see around me,living in Miami, also contributes to my impressions.

I bring it up for the sake of discussion and wonder if some solutions can be found by examining the US work ethic.

[Solon]

53. Your really beginning to disgust me...

I bring it up for the sake of discussion and wonder if some solutions can be found by examining the US work ethic.

Now offense intended, far be it for me, as an American, to actually demand a living wage, benefits that actually would help my family, or even demanding that I get a weekend off a month or so, hell, any days off will do. Americans are already overworked, overstressed, under paid, etc. etc. and you want to make it WORSE? What is wrong with you?

[Marie26]

54. I don't think that's it

Americans aren't lazy. The productivity rate in America is one of the highest in the world. Americans, in general, work far longer hours & take less vacations than other industrialized nations. We're a country of over-stressed, over-caffinated workaholics. Workers aren't hiring illegal aliens because Americans "can't" do the job. And I don't believe there's any evidence that immigrants are safer. (Because Americans don't care about preventing an accident? Nah). If there's less safety complaints, that's probably because illegal aliens often aren't able to complain. They're easier for corporations to expoit. I'm very pro-immigrant & against this bill, but I don't think it's fair to resort to stereotypes about either Americans or immigrants.

[Solon]

48. Beware the stereotypes...

As you said here:
I suggest that immigrants are more eager for work and see opportunity to make a better life. I think it's always been that way. We Americans tend to take our good life for granted. We're threatened when others come and do our jobs better, often for less pay.

Emphasis is mine, of course, but what you said is absolutely false when it comes to legal immigrants or citizens, in fact, Chicanos were some of the first people to be Unionized in the southwest, and they have been agitating for better wages since then, watch "The Salt of the Earth" and maybe get an education.

[mia]

52. I stand corrected. n/t

[Solon]

27. More likely lack of documentation regarding safety and accidents...

How many of these undocumented workers get workman's comp? If companies are willing to break the law by hiring illegals, then why wouldn't they lie about safety records to get sweet deals on insurance and underbid the competition?

[Marie26]

49. Very few receive worker's comp.

Illegal workers will often be afraid to apply in the first place. And these employers are not above simply firing an injured worker so that he cannot place a claim.

[Solon]

51. I figured that...

Its sad when people have no problem with legalized indentured servitude being practiced all over this country again.

[Breeze54]

17. Now American Construction Worker's are lazy too??

That sounds like crap to me!!
Maybe they work harder (kiss ass) so bossman won't report them!?!
I've worked in manufacturing jobs that had quota's and the non-english
speaking workers were good workers, alright. They caused mgmt. to up the quota's
and they didn't take breaks and they made it very hard for everybody else!!
The pay DID NOT increase because they went faster but the hours and the quota's did!
Yup!
They wanted to do a good job and so did I but they worked us out of a job! Literally!
And from what I'm hearing, they are working on construction jobs at LOWER PAY!!
....and of course little or no benefit's!

[mia]

21. Yep, you've got it

They work so hard that they raise the stakes for all of us. I suspect that our immigrant ancestors did the same thing.

[Solon]

24. So did slaves, but you don't see anyone advocating the return of that...

These people are practically indentured servants in many cases, in fact, that is exactly what many are, oweing money to the people who sometimes smuggled them in, oweing their employer the job because practically no one else will hire them, having to work long hours with little pay, with either deportation to depressed areas or outright imprisonment to look forward too if they agitate for better working condition. Oh yeah, that's a system to support. :sarcasm:

[Breeze54]

26. Apparently Mia is!! n/t

[mia]

36. These laborers aren't in that category.

You're talking about something else which is extreme and truly horrible.
I don't believe that the indentured sevant model is the norm in the US now.
The laborers that I see in Miami seem to come and go as they please. There's a huge constuction boom here.

Spelling edit.

[Solon]

46. So you must be talking about Puerto Ricans, who are considered...

US Nationals, either that or LEGAL immigrants, because as far as I can tell, illegal immigrants have few if any legal protections in this country, so are up shit's creek, so to speak, being COMPLETELY at the mercy of their "generous" employers.

[mia]

55. Yes, I'm talking about legal immigrants

at least I'm assuming they're legal. I live in a Miami neighborhood full of them. Mostly Cubans, Nicaraguans and Colombians. I've heard that the Mexican farm workers are exploited in Florida and elsewhere. It's tragic.

[sadiesworld]

32. The guest construction workers in Dubai

work 12 hours a day six days a week and a half day on the seventh. I bet those Asian guest workers could REALLY "raise the stakes for all of us". How does that sit with you?

[mia]

44. Hadn't heard about that.

Sounds like we're going back to to the dark ages with the Dubai guest worker program.

[John Barrett]

73. Raising The Bar

In the corporate world they refer to it as "raising the bar". It's corporate speak for saying we want to squeeze more out of you. 24/7 would be raising the bar too I would surmise. But they never raise the bar for CEOs though...except for their perks and compensation.

We need to control the borders and establish laws (and enforce them) that provide significant penalties for hiring undocumented workers including those hired via subcontractors. The fines could be used for enforcement and improvement of immigration programs. That would help put a lid on more illegal immigration.

Those who are here illegally should not be given amnesty and citizenship but should be required to register within a certain time for guestworker status. Any criminal record should result in immediate deportation. Then we need to raise the bar for those who came here illegally and one way would be to require them to spend a couple years doing community and public service in their spare time. As one example cleaning up litter in the community including the removal of graffiti would help their community blight and might work to assimilate them into our culture. There's a myriad of things that this country needs done but not enough bodies or money.

Once they successfully complete such service then they could be put on a path to citizenship if they desire.

[Breeze54]

47. You suspect wrong!!

Maybe you should read a little US American History!?

Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938:
Maximum Struggle for a Minimum Wage

http://www.dol.gov/asp/programs/history/flsa1938.htm

On Saturday, June 25, 1938, to avoid pocket vetoes 9 days after Congress had adjourned,
President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed 121 bills. Among these bills was a landmark law
in the Nation's social and economic development --Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 (FLSA).
Against a history of judicial opposition, the depression-born FLSA had survived,
not unscathed, more than a year of Congressional altercation.
In its final form, the act applied to industries whose combined employment represented
only about one-fifth of the labor force.
In these industries, it banned oppressive child labor and set the minimum hourly wage
at 25 cents, and the maximum workweek at 44 hours.

A young worker's plea

While President Franklin Roosevelt was in Bedford, Mass., campaigning for reelection,
a young girl tried to pass him an envelope. But a policeman threw her back into the crowd.
Roosevelt told an aide, "Get the note from the girl."

Her note read,

I wish you could do something to help us girls....
We have been working in a sewing factory,...
and up to a few months ago we were getting our minimum pay of $11 a week...
Today the 200 of us girls have been cut down to $4 and $5 and $6 a week.

To a reporter's question, the President replied,
"Something has to be done about the elimination of child labor and long hours and starvation wages."

-FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT

Public Papers and Addresses, Vol. V

New York, Random House, 1936), pp. 624-25.

My ancestor's fought for fair wages and shorter work weeks!!
The corporations and pigs have us going backwards, not forward!
Is that what you want for any and all worker's?
Go back to "the good ole' days? :sarcasm:
Have you ever heard of the "Lowell Mill Girls"?
Read more about it here:
http://womenshistory.about.com/od/worklaborunions/a/lowell_organize.htm

Those are just a few examples...

[NoAmericanTaliban]

30. Don't forget we are fat too, not just lazy :)

[Breeze54]

33. lmao!

but so were they!! :rofl:

[rodeodance]

34. you are right, It is not black/white but Sennesbrenners bill makes it so,

which is why there is such an uproar. Many of the people rallying are docs, nurses, teachers, social workers, those who work directly with the immigrants and who will be affected by his proposal.

[sadiesworld]

37. The Sennesbrenner bill is SUPPOSED to be unpalatable.

A rational bill that would actually curb illegal immigration will never see the light of day.

This is all just theater for the patsies (that would be us).

[rodeodance]

35. Here is a good summary "The Case For Comprehensive Reform"

and if go to site--there are larger clickable stories embedded.

...

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Progress Report: The Case For Comprehensive Reform
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:39:07 -0500 (EST)
From: American Progress Action Fund <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
To: xxxx



by Judd Legum, Faiz Shakir, Nico Pitney
Amanda Terkel and Payson Schwin

March 24, 2006

The Case For Comprehensive Reform


http://www.americanprogressaction.org/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=klLWJcP7H&b=1331575&ct=2093045
IMMIGRATION

The Case For Comprehensive Reform

The United States' immigration system is broken, and getting worse. The number of undocumented in the United States has ballooned to roughly 12 million as of March 2006. Next week, the atmosphere will grow more urgent, as the Senate takes up immigration reform. For conservatives, it is a moment of truth. Columnist David Brooks warns that his fellow conservatives may "walk off a cliff on the subject of immigration," fundamentally "shifting away from the idea that the United States is a universal nation, where immigrants come from across the world to work, rise and join in the pursuit of happiness." Meanwhile, "tens of thousands of immigrants around the country stepped up a series of protest rallies," with events planned in 10 cities early next month. Most importantly, next week is an opportunity for Congress to take a bold step towards comprehensive immigration reform, including increased border security measures, strong moves to crack down on businesses that hire undocumented workers, and a path for immigrants to move out of the shadows.

EARNED CITIZENSHIP VS. GUEST WORKER PROGRAMS: The most comprehensive reform proposal on the table -- the Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act proposed by Sens. Edward Kennedy (D-MA) and John McCain (R-AZ) -- includes a responsible plan to help undocumented workers become lawful, tax-paying members of our society. To earn citizenship, individuals would have to apply for a six-year temporary status, have a job, pay taxes, obey the law, learn English, and pay a $2,000 penalty for having come here illegally. Nor could they "cut in front of the more than 3 million 'green card' applicants who have obeyed the law." This is a rigorous but fair process. Many conservatives, however, including President Bush, support a limited temporary "guest worker" program, which allows undocumented to apply only for a six-year temporary residency. This strategy is impractical and irresponsible on its face: undocumented workers will have little incentive to expose their illegal status if they face mandatory deportation after just six years. It is also unpopular. According to a Time poll, the overwhelming number of Americans (76 percent) favor gaving undocumented individuals a path to earned citizenship.

ENFORCEMENT-ONLY: A FAILING POLICY: Draconian enforcement-only immigration policies backed by conservatives during the last two decades have been an expensive failure. The undocumented population has soared from 2.5 million in 1986 to 12 million today "despite a 519 percent increase in funding and a 221 percent increase in staffing for border patrol programs." A study by the Center for Comparative Immigration Studies showed that border controls alone have either "no statistically significant effect" on the propensity to migrate, or actually "encourage migrants to stay in the United States longer." Moreover, hardliner support for enforcement-only policies is weakening important alliances: U.S.-Mexico relations have "been in a downward spiral over the last six years," and 11 Latin American foreign ministers met last month in Colombia to discuss ways to counter plans for a massive, ineffective, and costly new border wall. Says Demetrios Papademetriou, president of the nonpartisan Migration Policy Institute: "There is a certain emperor-has-no-clothes aspect to these enforcement-only bills. The only way they can work would be if you totally militarize the border. And even then, people would find some other way to come in." Thankfully, some in Congress are standing up against this approach: Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) announced this week that he would "use every procedural means at my disposal," including a filibuster, to block passage of Senator Majority Leader Bill Frist's (R-TN) enforcement-only bill.

POLITICS AND IDEOLOGY MAY KILL CHANCES FOR REAL REFORM: The political grandstanding on immigration was typified this week by Majority Leader Frist. Just as the Senate Judiciary Committee had broken through a days-long stalemate and reached initial compromises on comprehensive reform, Frist announced plans to bring his own bill to the floor for debate. Frist's legislation lacks even a "guest worker" program, and so has no chance of passage. But no matter: Frist was more interested in appealing to immigration hardliners than actually addressing the problem. Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter (R-PA) called Frist's move a "colossal mistake." As for President Bush, though he has called for Congress to adopt a guest worker program, the White House last December also praised the draconian House bill -- the one that may kill chances of comprehensive reform -- as a "significant step forward." President Bush should be pressing hardline conservatives in the House to end their opposition to fair, comprehensive immigration reform.

CRACKDOWN ON CORPORATE ABETTERS: The U.S. government also needs to crack down on the businesses that routinely and knowingly hire undocumented workers. The Bush administration has a dismal record on employer enforcement. In 2003, it made just 443 worksite arrests of the estimated 6 million undocumented workers in the U.S. at that time. Even worse, the adminstration in 2004 issued only three notices of intent to fine employers for hiring undocumented workers, a drop from 417 in 1999, according to a Government Accountability Report. "Even when employers were caught hiring undocumented workers, the penalties typically have been minor," in part because Immigrations and Customs Enforcement (ICE) "often lowers the amount of a fine in negotiations with employers." Richard Stana, director of homeland security and justice issues at the GAO, testified last year that worksite enforcement "continues to be a low priority for ICE." As long as employers are willing to hire undocumented workers, people will find a way to come here illegally. We need tougher penalties and tougher enforcement.


http://www.americanprogressaction.org/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=klLWJcP7H&b=1331575&ct=2093045

CRIMINALIZING THE GOOD WORKS OF THE FAITHFUL: In Isaiah 49:10, the Old Testament reads, "They will neither hunger nor thirst, nor will the desert heat or the sun beat upon them. He who has compassion on them will guide them and lead them beside springs of water." In this spirit, faith-based humanitarian groups like Humane Borders have offered basic medical and food supplies to those attempting to cross the U.S. border. These migrants, half of whom are women or children, face dangers including "fording flood-prone rivers, crossing dangerous deserts on foot and evading the armed gangs of smugglers and traffickers who will attempt to rob, rape and kidnap them." Hundreds die attempting to cross each year. Yet several bills being considered in the Senate now, including the potential compromise bill backed by Arlen Specter (R-PA), include a provision that would make it a federal crime punishable by up to five years in prison to offer aid to undocumented immigrants. According to Los Angeles Cardinal Roger Mahoney, "the proposed law is so broad that it would criminalize even minor acts of mercy like offering a meal or administering first aid." Mahoney has instructed the priests of his archdiocese to disobey the law if it is enacted: "Denying aid to a fellow human being violates a law with a higher authority than Congress — the law of God." As Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-NY) said this week, "It is certainly not in keeping with my understanding of the Scripture because this bill would literally criminalize the Good Samaritan and probably even Jesus himself."

[rodeodance]

39. this example from our 'wise' leaders makes it black and white:

from article above;

....POLITICS AND IDEOLOGY MAY KILL CHANCES FOR REAL REFORM: The political grandstanding on immigration was typified this week by Majority Leader Frist. Just as the Senate Judiciary Committee had broken through a days-long stalemate and reached initial compromises on comprehensive reform, Frist announced plans to bring his own bill to the floor for debate. Frist's legislation lacks even a "guest worker" program, and so has no chance of passage. But no matter: Frist was more interested in appealing to immigration hardliners than actually addressing the problem. Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter (R-PA) called Frist's move a "colossal mistake." As for President Bush, though he has called for Congress to adopt a guest worker program, the White House last December also praised the draconian House bill -- the one that may kill chances of comprehensive reform -- as a "significant step forward." President Bush should be pressing hardline conservatives in the House to end their opposition to fair, comprehensive immigration reform.

[rodeodance]

40. and crimininalizing the helpers (felony) is certainly no answer!

[Marie26]

38. It blows my mind

how many people are in favor of making illegal immigration into a felony & locking up undocumented workers in prison for years. These are the same people who worry about the US becoming a police state, w/o seeing any contradiction. (Doesn't it bother anyone else that this is part of the "REAL ID" act that liberals are afraid of?) Liberalism is about compassion & tolerance for all people, especially people who are underprivileged or oppressed. (isn't it?) Yet many liberals favor a bill that would result in suffering & even death for poor immigrant workers. A bill that would make it a crime for priests, social workers, or nurses to help an illegal alien. (So I guess we can throw the nuns into prison as well.) A bill that would make it almost impossible for the persecuted to seek asylum in the US. A bill that violates basic protections of human rights. I thought we, as Americans, were better than that.

Sorry, that turned into a rant. Illegal immigration is a problem, but there are much easier, more effective ways to deal w/it. The first is, simply, better enforcement. The Border Patrol is completely underfunded & overwhelmed right now. One officer is now expected to man 100 miles of border, alone. Take .001% of that huge tax cut & apply it to border enforcement instead. Second, use the ICE to punish employers who hire illegal aliens. Right now, ICE penalties are a joke. Strengthen those laws, & impose serious fines for violations. Those are two easy steps we could do right now. In the future, I think we should change immigration laws to allow people from poorer countries to obtain legal visas (which they basically can't right now), & end the huge visa perks for rich, scientific professionals. We should also change the laws to stop, or at least slow, the trend of outsourcing businesses (which is what actually results in lay-offs of American workers). All of these things would reduce the influx of illegal immigrants, protect American workers & hold corporations responsible.

But we're not doing these things. Instead, we're passing bills that will prevent beaten immigrant women from receiving medical care. Does that make any kind of sense?

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/asylum/asylum_10_sensenbr.asp

[rodeodance]

41. We have become a lock em up society.

.But we're not doing these things. Instead, we're passing bills that will prevent beaten immigrant women from receiving medical care. Does that make any kind of sense?

[BigBearJohn]

56. Bring OUR jobs BACK from overseas and you wont have to worry about jobs

[Disturbed]

57. Prison time for offenders that hire Illegal Immigrants!

This gets my vote. One year minimum for the 1st offense and an increase in any subsequent violations.

[converted_democrat]

61. It gets my vote too, but it will never happen.. Big business runs this

country, they would never do anything that would amount to slashing their own throats..

[ChairmanAgnostic]

58. thanks for a rational voice in the wilderness

Lou Dobbs has stoked this fire something awful.

I know many (Thousands) of illegals here in the midwest. I represent more than a few of them in various matters. Every one I have met and dealt with simply wants to make a living, raise a family and join this society. How is that illegal? How are they a threat? Heck, they pay taxes, they provide critically important services, and their kids are being raised as law-abiding citizens.

Solon, your analysis is very sound. I agree with most of it.

[John Barrett]

75. Lou Dobbs Is Bad?

Why do you say he has stoked this fire? If he has, we should thank him because no one else dares touch it.

Dobbs has been making a number of points on a multitude of issues that the DNC itself should be mirroring. Yes I'm a fan and believe that he's been far ahead of the curve on things that the vast majority of us Americans are in fact concerned about.

Everything from overpaid CEOs that are pillaging benefits and wages of employees, and raping shareholders, to government encouraged outsourcing, to other ridiculous policies that are weakening our country fiscally and economically, to the UAE (and others) port deals, to the exploitation of America by Mexico, to the exploitation of American workers (and illegals) by greedy ruthless businesses that push for more illegal immigration.

The US employee is getting it from all sides with the cuts in benefits, pensions and compensation. Then if that wasn't enough there's the constant threat of outsourcing, and then there's the pressure for wage cuts that come from both illegals and green card holders (that some DUers seem to feel is perfectly fine).

We have a finite country with finite resources and an ecosystem that is being pressured with a population that has almost doubled in a couple generations. Are we ready for a half billion population country because that's where we're headed in short order according to some projections.

[sendero]

60. DU hypocrisy...

... is rampant here.

First off let me say I've worked in businesses where a lot of immigrant labor is used. In fact, I recently bailed on a business where EVERYONE hires illegals to do certain crucial work and if you don't want to you are at a huge competitive disadvantage. I did not want to hire illegals, not because 1) I don't like them, I respect most of the ones I knew IMMENSELY - they are here to work and the work their asses off or 2) I have a problem with them, I don't.

My reason was simple. It is AGAINST THE LAW. Even though the INS is basically absent in terms of enforcing immigration law and employment law, if THEY DECIDE TO THEY CAN TAKE YOU DOWN HARD for having an illegal on the payroll. Oh did I mention that in this particular business wages are almost always paid in cash, another violation? And so much for contributing to SS and the like. Trust me on this I know what I am talking about - a huge portion of illegal wages are paid IN CASH, no records, no taxes.

That said, almost to a man (and let's not forget a woman) everyone here decries "outsourcing". Well guess what, this is the EXACT SAME THING, only it is ILLEGAL. So get consistent, and stop acting like this is a pure "racial" issue (I'm sure it is for a few) and not an "sending our jobs away" issue. Because if you want to know why this issue is hitting a chord with Americans, I contend it is nothing but a manifestation of the economic insecurity that is beginning to permeate the American landscape, and as well it should.

[UTUSN]

62. Yip, the fave opposition goal, to DIVIDE us against one another

We have, here on DU, persons who are actually agreeing with the Minutemen and TANCREDO, not to mention O'LOOFAH, HANNITY, and MALKIN. I appreciate the o.p.'s temperance.

The operative principle for Dems is that we are a confederation of different groups, each group having its #1, identifying agenda item DIFFERENT from the others, possibly not reaching the bedrock consensus until we get down to the 3rd or 4th items down the line---like, social justice for all, civil rights, humane treatment under the law. Thus we have union groups who would oppose NAFTA *and* some kind of accomodation on the immigrants VERSUS other Dems------------------who ======= ARE =======Dems---------who support those sides (more than likely residing in the border regions).

The wingnuts have been leading on the immigration issues for three years, framing it THEIR way, claiming that it is "national security" and "enforcing the law", while a mere scratch of the surface reveals raw racism as a very real, very potent engine for their views. Fences and militarizing the borDER, as opposed to borDERS, with our peaceful neighbors is ANATHEMA, and WILL have the opposite effect of fueling hostility, just as Shrub has sown more seeds for future terrorism.

We are going to be caught flat footed AGAIN by wingnut framing of the issues in the next election. We need to FOCUS on our traditional roots, that we are FOR national security, are AGAINST "illegality", that we are FOR civil rights, social justice, and humane treatment---------the same as we are for CHOICE, not "abortion".

[Warren Stupidity]

71. huge national protests and Du'ers are lining up on the wrong side

to help the fascists use this issue to divide our base. Congratulations! Way to go! Let all that misplaced hate and anger find a target that has nothing at all to do with the problem.


We are going to be caught flat footed AGAIN by wingnut framing of the issues in the next election. We need to FOCUS on our traditional roots, that we are FOR national security, are AGAINST "illegality", that we are FOR civil rights, social justice, and humane treatment---------the same as we are for CHOICE, not "abortion".


Precisely. Get a freaking clue.

Legalize the 'illegals'. Support the Kennedy/McCain reform bill. Oppose xenophobic latino bashing militarization and criminalization of cross-border labor issues.

[crispini]

66. Right on, we need to enforce the laws that are already there!

Force employers to STOP BREAKING THE LAW by hiring them and the problem will start to be addressed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Why not ENFORCE the laws ON THE BOOKS

alraedy? (By the by the 1986 Law is a tad more stringent than yours... it includes taking away property from the compannies that continue on with these practces) Now just try to run on this platform in the central valley of california (to give one heinous example) and see how fast they run you out of town on a rail... tarred adn feathered to boot.

[Minnesota Libra]

68. I like your idea of actually trying to come up with WORKABLE SOLUTIONS....

.....rather than continuously tossing the utopia thing back and forth.

Hiring more borders guards would create jobs for our people and also slow, if not stop, the leaks of the porous borders we have now.

Slapping companies with huge fines for hiring/keeping/condoning illegal aliens would certainly make them think twice.

I, however, think $20,000 a day per illegal alien is much too low a start. For a company under under 100 employees the fines should start at $1 million a day per illegal alien and double each and every day from there. For companies over 100 employees the fine should start at $1 billion a day per illegal alien and double from there.

You want to bring an instant halt to illegal aliens that's how to do it.

We can't control the living conditions in other countries we can only protect the living conditions in this country.

I know I will probably get flamed for this but the bottom line is most Americans DO NOT want porous borders. Plus, most Americans think immigration should have its limits and conditions.

[pstans]

69. Democrats need to link NAFTA and CAFTA to this

Immigrants come here because they can no longer make a living farming in their countries because the US can dump grains there under free trade.

[Justpat]

72. If we went back to controlled immigration

which required citizenship of each person entering the country it would solve a lot of problems.

The current free for all is tearing the country apart.

My sister in law, before she passed away two years ago, ran a place in upstate NY called the International Center.
She operated this center on money she gathered from foundations and whatever private donations she could. The
International Center was a resource for the immigrant population there and it provided English classes, classes in
US history and the Constitution. They provided lawyers for people to work out legal citizenship but required that
they learn the responsibilities of that citizenship. They gave job training and placement too.
They had an incredible success rate with their clients because they taught them to function in our society as responsible,
tax paying citizens. When their clients had done well in the required classes they would hold their own citizenship
ceremonies with a local judge because they felt the ceremony was important part of their induction to a new life
in their adopted country.

This used to be the policy of our government before they decided to issue the current uncontrolled policies.