Pat Tillman's Dad Suspects Killing was Intentional

[NightOwwl]

Some snippets from today's NYTimes article:

Patrick K. Tillman <snip> staring intently at a yellow house across the street, just over 70 yards away. That, he recalled, is how far away his eldest son, Pat, <snip> was standing from his fellow Rangers when they shot him dead in Afghanistan almost two years ago. "I could hit that house with a rock," Mr. Tillman said. "You can see every last detail on that place, everything, and you're telling me they couldn't see Pat?"

He has studied — and challenged — Army PowerPoint presentations meant to explain how his son, who had called out his own name and waved his arms, wound up dead anyway, shot three times in the head by his own unit, which said it had mistaken him for the enemy.

<This> has even left him suspicious of the military's central finding in their son's case so far: that the killing was a terrible but unintentional accident. "There is so much nonstandard conduct, both before and after Pat was killed, that you have to start to wonder," Mr. Tillman said. "How much effort would you put into hiding an accident? Why do you need to hide an accident?"

After the shooting, the Rangers destroyed evidence that would be considered critical in any criminal case, the records show. They burned Corporal Tillman's uniform and his body armor. "How could they do that?" Mr. Tillman said. "That makes no sense." The family still wants to know, he said, what became of Corporal Tillman's diary. It was never returned to the family, he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/21/politics/21tillman.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ei=5094&en=afa52cbd1ddda78b&hp&ex=1142917200&partner=homepage

Shot 3 times to the head. Uniform and body armor burned. No trace of his diary which was filled with anti-war, anti-Bush diatribes (according to his brother.)

Looks like an execution style killing to me.

[BrklynLiberal]

1. wow.

[NoAmericanTaliban]

35. Believe he was killed in the same week as the Abu Grab

photos were released in the press. This was a way to distract from the issue. Pure Propaganda aka
Jessica Lynch. Father needs to be interviewed on Air America, 60 minutes, etc. This is a big time cover up.

[BrklynLiberal]

60. Absolutely. Hope his father hits the media big time!!!

[splat]

2. Did they not like the guy? Anybody know? n/t

[MadMaddie]

6. Not long after Tillman arrived at his destination....

he realized that the so called war on Terrorism was bullshit and he became vocal about it......some believe this is why he was killed.....such a well known soldier speaking out against the war would have been bad news for the * cabal!!

[katty]

76. heard/read that as well...

[galatea]

155. what took him so long

to realize that the War on Terrorism was bullshit?

We all saw that from day one. What a lack of vision, and what an unfortunate end!

He went right into the snake's pit, how sad.

[NightOwwl]

17. He was a very vocal about his disgust with the war...

and with Bush. He was an outspoken Democrat whose hero was Noam Chomsky.

He had to be silenced.

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nonconformist]

166. He signed up for Afghanistan

Which he thought was a justified response to 9/11.

He strongly disagreed with the invasion of Iraq.

[galatea]

169. Chomsky never thought

attacking Afghanistan was justified.

Most of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. And the Bush Crime Family gave the Taliban a 2-month head start, they had no interest in catching the real culprits. Osama is still free.

Bush attacked Afghanistan for the oil pipeline.

[omulcol]

181. And the OPIUM !

[Shakespeare]

173. Just because Chomsky was one of his heroes....

...doesn't mean he agreed with Chomsky on every issue. And he clearly didn't.

[galatea]

174. He would still be alive today

if he agreed with Chomsky on every issue, that's for sure.

Enlisting for this useless Afghanistan invasion was the biggest mistake of his life.

[Kurovski]

58. He would have been a very high-profile war dissenter.

He was a famous man who gave up a million-dollar football contract to enlist.

And we know how BushCo feels about dissenters.

[bush_is_wacko]

111. I also believe he was executed and wonder why his family and the media

aren't blasting the rest of the story out to America. Maybe all those redneck/nascar/fundies would start to understand what we have all been trying to tell them for years now.

No disrespect meant to any redneck/nascar/football lovers that have already seen the light by the way!

[fooj]

112. LOL!!! Thanks for the clarification.

Peace.

[Brothaman2k]

144. No, they don't like dissent

However Bush wasn't on the ground so it's not like he pulled the trigger (Now if Cheney was there that'd be a different story). I can't see it as being realistic that the administration would be capable or even willing to take the risk of having one, individual soldier whacked cuz he didn't like the war.

Naw, if he was purposefully killed it had to be something personal between him and his fellow unit members. Thinking back on it, going into Afghanistan after 9/11 was a highly popular move to avenge America's honor. I guess if he did voice objection that would have made him unpopular. But even that doesn't explain them conspiring to kill him.

Now if perhaps he saw some of his unit members do something illegal like killing of civilians, something we all know angry soldiers hopped up on adrenaline and caught up in the fervor of serving their country could be prone to do (for example see Vietnam) THAT would be a good reason to kill him. If he'd been vocal about disliking the war and voiced any objection to illegal acts of his fellow soilders that's one hell of a reason to shut his mouth permanently.

That's the only scenario I can think of that makes such an extreme act make real sense. And since we know these guys have no problem destroying what they knew damn well was evidence we know we're dealing with criminal minds.

[coalition_unwilling]

78. Tillman was against the Iraq boondoggle (n/t)

[MadMaddie]

3. Yea, I am starting to believe Pat T was executed.....

This goes to the top Rummy and *!! I hope Tillmans family continues to fight and expose the lies.

[wordpix2]

72. could be, I don't dismiss any possible evildoing by BushCo---look at Plame

[blm]

4. Tillman was going to be a HUGE threat to BushInc's power.

He was going to come home and campaign for John Kerry, which would have been difficult for even the best-trained mediawhores to ignore.

Gee....would BushInc KILL to hang on to power?

[opihimoimoi]

9. Holy Bat Shit gonna hit the fan soon....

[OzarkDem]

11. Slow- walking the investigation

I'm sure they'll continue to throw up as many barriers as possible to keep any information from coming out at the wrong time.

A perfect example is the Enron investigation - with the major players only now being hauled into court 5 years after the fact. As with so many other things, it will be decades before we learn the truth about this administration and its corrupt activities.

[NightOwwl]

12. Gee, ya think?

What's one more death added to the hundreds of thousands Buscho has already caused.

[SammyWinstonJack]

14. Sen Wellstone comes to mind.

[0007]

42. Big time!!

[SammyWinstonJack]

109. I still can't believe he is gone. Rat bastard **!

[Left Is Write]

176. Bingo.

[madmunchie]

29. I hope that isn't a serious question

[SammyWinstonJack]

43. I take it as a serious question.

[blm]

47. The shame is that it's VALID to ask with this group of thugs.

.

[madmunchie]

90. Ugh, * has thousands dying to prove his ideology in addition to

Abu Garibe, Guantanamo; come on asking a question like that to us thugs doesn't make much sense. This group of thugs has seen the pictures of the dead and maimed children in Iraq because of Bush's policies. Killing one person is so obviously IN this guy's way of running the country, that I honestly thought that you just MIGHT be asking the question in sarcasm, which is not unheard of on this forum.

Pardon me for not realizing that you haven't arrived at reality yet when it comes to the extent that * will go to just to push his own ideologies.

[NightOwwl]

92. Hope you don't mind me jumping in here...

but I think the poster you were responding to meant that it is a crying shame that we have to ask the unthinkable. Meaning we would never ask that question if these people had any shred of decency. But because we know how evil they really are, we have to ask, and the question must be taken seriously.

[madmunchie]

93. Thank you, that is what I wasn't sure of.

I couldn't tell whether or not the poster was really serious in asking that question. When I read the response and then the term, "thugs" was used, I was further confused. I probably am just a bit more dense today than normal

[NightOwwl]

98. You're welcome! n/t

[blm]

160. Whenever it comes to BushInc I assume the worst of them, and eventually

history has proven me right about 95% of the time.

[timtom]

150. Permit me to interject...

I do not ask the question. For me, it is automatically assumed.

If a person seals records for no apparent reason, then my automatic assumption is that there is something vile to hide.

For me, any attempt to block or hide the truth mandates an immediate assumption of guilt.

You want to lie about 9/11? Then you must have arranged for it to happen.

It's quite simple for me, really. It's not the American way, of course, but I'm afraid we're beyond that point now.

[sheelz]

53. And the stinkin media wasn't a threat either...

Bush has Diebold to take care of public opinion. Nor does he care about public opinion.

[AX10]

5. Because he was a Democrat.

[dogday]

7. Freaking 3 shots to the head

What are the odds of that? WTF :wtf:

[EFerrari]

10. Wouldn't that be very hard to do accidently? n/t

[dogday]

25. That's what I am thinking

Did you see the picture of the rock where he was shot? Some of the holes are different than the others, like some shots were fired from far away, and some shots were fired up close. There are three shots right together, look like close shots....

Just this dog's opinion....

[NightOwwl]

27. I'm believe they are all trained sharpshooters...

which makes it all the more suspicious.

[fooj]

113. Sure as hell sounds like it to me.

Peace.

[Sequoia]

26. That's an ug...cute...ummm....kitten.

What's with that face?

[malmapus]

36. Could be tight shot group

With the M-16A2, in burst it would put out 3 rounds. I know I had a hell of a shot group in my time on the ranges, could almost put all three rounds in same spot.

When I ETS'd they were just phasing in the new carbine (can't remember the name off the top of my head) but I'm sure it also had burst like the M16A2.

[Stand and Fight]

82. That would be the M-4 more than likely...

Smaller and lighter. Same caliber of round as the M-16A2. More accurate and it jerked about less. The Rangers at Fort Lewis -- where I was previously stationed -- often carried these. I wonder what kind of weapons the squad had. More than likely a M249, M203, 9mm, 50-Cal, Mark-19, and maybe an M60 though they were being phased out...

No matter what weapon it is very likely that a burst shot could cause the three bullet wounds to the skull. However, that would have had to be some SUPERB shooting to take out a guy who was obviously trying to get their attention. Furthermore it would have had to have been a smaller caliber weapon as a Mark-19, M60, or 50-Cal would have taken less than three shots. My money is on a M-4 or M-16A2 -- even a M203 with .22 caliber bullets... Possibly even a 9mm.

70 yards? That's pretty damn good shooting with a burst shot and nearly impossible with a single shot.

[malmapus]

84. Yeah, I can't imagine Pat standing out either to make himself a better

target.

I dunno, I keep thinking how fast the M16A2 would put out three rounds (yeah keep reflecting on what I know heh). But like I said, I dunno.

[Stand and Fight]

119. Three rounds and not in burst?

there's no way one could get off a tight shot group on a clearly mobile target within it being in burst, and even then it would be a daunting task to accomplish.

[OG Yankee Patriot]

177. Any Soldier Knows - PAT TILLMAN WAS MURDERED

Here's the thing, grotesque though it may be. If you are squeamish, please don't read the following.
Even in burst fire at 70 yards, the 3 hits to the forehead can only mean one thing - murder.
Whatever the caliber, the first hit knocks the target offline. As soon as Tillman was struck by the first round, what was left of his head was no longer in the target area or path of the projectile.
Even assuming it was a "perfect burst", rounds 2 and 3 would have gone whizzing by. It's simple physics.
Think of it as simply as if you were plinking a coke bottle (glass) on a fence post. Hit #1 explodes the target, there's nothing left for rounds #2 & #3 to hit even milliseconds later.
In order to get 3 shots into someone's forehead, it MUST be at close range and downward, most likely from a sidearm handgun.
The 70-yard scenario is implausible at best, and a murder coverup at worst.

[OG Yankee Patriot]

178. Pat Tillman Murder Coverup - Link

i forgot to post this link.
this has been covered up from the squad up through the Pentagon.
who killed Pat Tillman, and why?

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,91200,00.html

[omulcol]

182. PAT TILLMAN WAS MURDERED

Excellemt analysis OG ... Your clarification and line of logic has convinced me Pat was murdered.

[Aviation Pro]

175. M-4

eom

[wicket]

55. The whole time he was yelling "I'm Pat Fucking Tillman!"

:cry: :cry: :cry:

[Peter Frank]

145. WTF Indeed...

If he'd been shot 3 times in the head by the Taliban -- no problem. However there's no substantial plausible deni-ability of culpability here for the "American" forces.

What else could this be, other than a hit? Why haven't the shooters been tried by the military?

[sasha031]

8. a real tragedy

he was also going to meet Noam Chomsky as soon as he got back to the US

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

16. I had read that elsewhere also. Noam Chomsky meeting nt

[bbernardini]

13. Why does Pat Tillman's dad hate America? nt

[LiberalinNC]

15. Why did they burn his armor and uniform????

[NightOwwl]

Why did they burn his diary?

Why did they shoot him in the head 3 fucking times!?!

I hope his poor family gets the answers they deserve, but I wouldn't count on it.

[wordpix2]

67. they said it had blood and was starting to smell---that's plausible

but 3 shots in the head aren't

[LiberalinNC]

68. So because it smelled "bad" it's ok to burn evidence????

WTF????? :crazy:

[kayice]

131. I read they burnt his armour right away too.

It is a bullcrap excuse, about the smell. Someone was hiding the evidence.

[Stand and Fight]

83. Bullshit.

You do not burn a soldier's uniform, much less his body armor, in that situation. There was no reason whatsoever to do any of that. Something stinks here. They have SOP that prescribes PRECISELY what to do in these situations.

[yardwork]

180. That makes no sense - all battlefields smell

It makes no sense that they would "burn" his clothes and armor - no sense at all, unless it was to cover up a crime.

[quiet.american]

18. Typically, Rumsfeld has his priorities wrong.

Senior military officials said Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld had expressed outrage to top aides that the Army was having to conduct yet another inquiry into the shooting, prolonging the family's anguish and underscoring the failure of the Army's investigative processes to bring resolution.

Words escape me.

[NightOwwl]

31. Unfortunately, the depths to which this administration sinks...

no longer has the capacity to surprise me anymore.

[Minstrel Boy]

19. He had meeting scheduled with Chomsky, said war "so fucking illegal"

Tillman: 'You know, this war is so fucking illegal"
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051024/zirin

a friend of Pat's even arranged a private meeting with Chomsky, the antiwar author , to take place after his return from Afghanistan--a meeting prevented by his death.

http://www.chomsky.info/2005_09_01_archive.htm

[Lucky Luciano]

130. Wow...new respect

I had no idea the Mr Tillman was such a cool guy. I had assumed all this time that he was a knee-jerk macho military guy. My respect has increase tremendously. I feel terrible for what happened to him, what his family is going through, and what countless other families are going through. Such a waste of many many lives.

The truth will come out.

[liberalcanuck]

168. Thanks for the link. Shame on those in this administration! Shame!

I've read that so many of us are not surprised by what these people are capable of doing. I keep getting surprised. I just can't bring myself to think as deviously as these evil bastards.

I can't even imagine how the Tillman family must feel about all this.

Shame!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[femrap]

20. OMG....the Truth can be silenced for only so long....

we are starting to hear of the atrocities that the US has done in Iraq....yep, shit is gonna hit the fan.

[malaise]

61. Impeach these fuggers

someone, anyone.

[sheelz]

21. He was killed for Propaganda!

Their murderous monsters!

[joeunderdog]

41. And how about those mysterious deaths of Jessica Lynch's pals?

http://www.propagandamatrix.com/291003lynchrescuers.html

It looks like it wasn't enough to stop her from going public. Maybe they were afraid of the same with Tillman.

[sheelz]

51. The problem is general public doesn't get the updated story.

and that's all Bush needs. Had Tillman had lived, they would have swift-boated him. Pat Tillman was a football player who left the game to fight a war. It made him the ultimate hero. That's the propaganda.

[Nabia2004]

89. thanks for the link, fascinating article - nt

[mirandapriestly]

100. I didn't know about that, geez, is there no end?nt

[Sequoia]

22. That's what I thought

when I read about the 3 bullets for sure, but when I read that book "What's My Name Fool" I considered it then because Pat was not and did not want to be the Army's poster boy.

[genie_weenie]

23. Of course, no one in the MSM

is going to revisit this. After all Aryan Skelecoutler said she doesn't believe "A truly Macho Man's Man" like Pat could be anti-war!

But, it's hard to believe the * Cabal could get members of Pat's unit to murder him. Not impossible, but very hard to believe.

This is terrible.

[EFerrari]

28. Unless one or more members of his unit were handlers.

I wonder if that unit had any personnel changes after Pat came out as a Bush critic.

:(

[cali]

101. this was an above the fold NYT story

by Eric Schmitt and Monica Davey, with a full page inside. Can't get much more MSM than that. I just wrote a LTTE saying that I appreciated the coverage and hope they'll follow it up with a profile about Pat and politics.

[xultar]

24. His refusal to be a poster boy infuriated someone.

[Alamom]

30. Makes you wonder if this was to silence Pat and also a

warning to others who may have been openly against the war.

This kind of "accident" happening to someone as well known as Pat Tillman would very well keep all of the regular "Joe's" quite.

I feel awful for his family to have to go through this, not know the truth and the truth could turn out to be an even worse nightmare.

[riona]

32. another Interesting article on this

The very private Tillmans have revealed a picture of Pat profoundly at odds with the GI Joe image created by Pentagon spinmeisters and their media stenographers. As the Chronicle put it, family and friends are now unveiling "a side of Pat Tillman not widely known--a fiercely independent thinker who enlisted, fought and died in service to his country yet was critical of President Bush and opposed the war in Iraq, where he served a tour of duty. He was an avid reader whose interests ranged from history books...to works of leftist Noam Chomsky, a favorite author." Tillman had very unembedded feelings about the Iraq War. His close friend Army Spec. Russell Baer remembered, "I can see it like a movie screen. We were outside of watching as bombs were dropping on the town.... We were talking. And Pat said, 'You know, this war is so f***ing illegal.' And we all said, 'Yeah.' That's who he was. He totally was against Bush." With these revelations, Pat Tillman the PR icon joins WMD and Al Qaeda connections on the heap of lies used to sell the Iraq War.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051024/zirin

[NightOwwl]

34. And with these revelations...

he was considered a dangerous man. Too dangerous to let live.

[leftchick]

33. didn't he hope to meet up with Chomsky in the states?

Tillman was too high profile of an anti-war veteran. The BFEE couldn't have him running around telling the truth. :cry:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

37. "Guns don't kill people.."

[Redstone]

38. I absolutely HATE conspiracy-nut stuff. But this? Makes me think.

Too many coincidences to be accidental.

Redstone

[NightOwwl]

65. I'm not a tin-foil hatter either...

but the more we hear about what really happened, the surer I become that this was an intentional killing.

Hell, even his dad has come to the same conclusion.

It is heartbreaking.

[land of the free]

88. I just have a problem with the conspiracy theory

I am sure there are thousands of American soliders in Iraq that are against the war (especially now that they're on the ground and see the chaos and slaughter being thrust upon innocent civilians, and that they see there is no clear plan to stabilize the country). Why kill him? Even though he was less anonymous than most soldiers, most Americans probably never had heard of him before his death.

It sounds like the unit was in a dangerous situation. Could it have been used to "accidentally" take Tillman out? I suppose. Could it have been an accident, and those responsible covered it up (either to protect their own hides, or under orders so this soldier's death could be used for American propaganda)? Very possibly.

That said, I certainly hope his family will be able to get some honest answers as to what happened and why. This must be horribly upsetting to see how much the Pentagon has lied and how they used his death as a PR stunt. Rummy's false "outrage" for what the Tillman family is going through makes my blood boil.

[NightOwwl]

94. When he enlisted, it was huge news on all the MSM.

All the while, Bushco was using him as their poster boy, when in reality he despised everything Bush stood for. He called the Iraq war "fucking illegal." He was a Democrat who was going to vote for Kerry. He was going to meet with Noam Chomsky when he returned to the states. In other words, he was very dangerous to Buscho.

The cover-up is always worse than the crime, and this is one hellavu cover-up. They burned his armor. They burned his diary and destroyed his very soul. So I have to ask myself why. Why destroy evidence that could help determine what really happened? I hope his father learns the truth, and if what he suspects is true, I hope it doesn't destroy him also.

[Brothaman2k]

146. I'm with you

Like I said earlier in the thread, I don't think this is the result of a conspiracy, but a criminal act. I mean think about it....

The Administration had him killed? Well, for whatever reason they'd want to do this, this is a whole lot of one thing we know this secretive cabal doesn't want... EXPOSURE. In order to have someone killed you have to find an assassin to do the job. That means you have to make contacts and make your intentions known to somebody. What if the people you ask to do the job refuse? What if they refuse and go to the press?! No, no, no... WAAAAAAAAAAY too risky. Now if I'd heard about some mysterious soldier or soldiers who came in for a few days and disappeared after Tillman was killed and they can't be tracked down. Now I could say it was plausible that they were handpicked, black bag, clandestine agents for the job, but we don't have that here.

They had him killed because he objected to the war on terror? If he objects he objects. Shit there were thousands objecting when this went down, didn't make a damn bit of difference. What's one more? Did Tillman make headlines when he left the NFL for the army, sure. It was all the rage for a few days. Then it disappeared from the headlines until he was killed. Could his semi-high profile status been a campaign tool for Dems? Sure, but it's not like the entire election would have hinged on him. His story was compelling, but it wasn't THAT huge.

I'm telling you, this is no conspiracy, it was a flat criminal act. Much has been made of the antiwar sentiment Tillman wrote in his diary, but diaries are really meant for people to document their days. The stuff they've seen and heard. Now on a battlefield with fire fights and people dying it's not a leap to suggest if he ever saw some kind of act that might be considered a war crime, he would have documented it in the diary. Now, if he was known as the honest, "boyscout" type those who commited the illegal act would have seen him as a threat and silencing him a way to keep him from getting them thrown in jail. I say Tillman was a witness to something and soldiers in his unit killed him and snatched the diary to cover it up.

That's a much more likely scenario.

[Jacobin]

103. There's nothing 'nutty' about fragging

It was not uncommon in Viet Nam.

That's what I think happened.

[MadisonProgressive]

39. An order from Rumsfeld, I'm sure..

[0007]

40. The question now begs the answer. Was Pat disliked by his

buddies or was this a plan to make a war hero out of him for obvious reasons?

[underpants]

50. Other

I have wondered what his old man was thinking about this. Mrs. Tillman has been pretty open about how she feels.

Okay here goes-they whacked him because he was about to come home and was probably going to be a very visible and effective speaker AGAINST the war. We know from the interview of his mother in the SF Chronicle that Pat and his brother joined the Army to go to Afghanistan and that he (they?) were dead set against Iraq from the get go. I have read that Pat openly talked about this in his unit (he loved just throwing out topics to stimulate the minds and conversation of his younger buddies. He didn't care what side you took as long as it was informed, thought out, and delivered in an intelligent way) and was scheduled to meet with......Noam Chomsky when he got back.

They did him to make sure he didn't come home and not only embolden the growing "bring them home" crowd but imagine what this guy would have done to the usually disaffected ESPN crowd.

I always thought that they killed him. Not anyone in his unit probably someone else who just happened to be there.

[kayice]

134. Certain career Special Forces....yeah, I could see them doing it.

Or some being afraid enough not to follow orders to do it.

[Octafish]

44. This story breaks my heart.

His son was a most special person -- a scholar, athlete and patriot.

Of course, all the people who have died at the hands of Terror Inc (a division of the Bush Crime Syndicate) were truly special.

[wicket]

56. Yours and mine Octafish

:cry:

[EFerrari]

81. Mine, too. He was really something special.

And his family.

[Octafish]

45. This story breaks my heart.

His son was a most special person -- a scholar, athlete and patriot.

Of course, all the people who have died at the hands of Terror Inc (a division of the Bush Crime Syndicate) were truly special.

[malmapus]

46. I want to say his killing was a tragic accident in combat

I don't have all the facts, I don't know what happened out there. But I have been sitting here reflecting on personal experience (probaly more than I should have..gonna pay for it I'm sure today).

But if he was 70 yards away, that is a freaking long distance. Hear me out, all I can remember from my boots is the sound of my M-16 and the weapons of my team / buddies close to me (as well as the occasional round passing by that got to close). There is shouting and other stuff. If Pat was 70 yards away shouting his name, no way in hell would the guys be able to hear him and from 70 yards he's a silouette, espicially if he would be hunkered down trying not to get shot. Combat is freaking chaos on earth, I don't know how it started, but Rangers are well known for making chaos when shit hits the fan (that's what they do, blow stuff up).

3 rounds in his head, I take that to be a tight shot group. Could have been one Ranger put those rounds through him with weapon in burst.


Now what I believe is that the Army did try to cover it all up, of all the people to be killed by friendly fire, it was this pro-football guy. The man who left it all to serve his country. Not only serve his country but volunteered to be a Ranger. He could have gone in and worked the S-1 behind a desk, but he wanted to be all he could be so to speak and became this patriot that the administration and media drooled over.

But like I said, I wasn't there when it happened so I am just reflecting on personal experience of being in a fire fight. I guess I just still remember some of the Ranger creed "never shall I fail my comrades," when I went through Pre-Ranger and want to believe it still holds meaning.

Hope what I tried to convey makes any type of sense. I don't want to sound like I'm defending his killers, well if it was an accident I am..because the one who put those rounds through him will be living with it for the rest of his life.

[NightOwwl]

66. Since I've never fired a gun in my entire life...

I can do nothing but theorize.

I appreciate the insight from someone who has been there.

[malmapus]

80. Welcome, was kinda hoping some other DU vets might chime in

Stuff like that is hard to reflect on, but I just feel that the possibility that it was a major accident is there. From what I've gathered that whole operation was a disaster from the get go.

[RBHam]

85. All it takes is one BFEE/CIA assassin, planted in the unit.

Remember that Rummy has his own hit squad. His "Special Operations Branch"... Just call them the "SOB's"...loyal only to their Fuhrer and ready to carry out any order.

[Kansas Wyatt]

115. Yep, and have access to everything and anything.

Special Ops bunch, and answer only to Rummy. They could be standing right behind you for weeks, and you would never know it. They are even briefed on everything the Pentagon itself has to hide and protect, and work closely with the CIA. Some very strange things are kept hidden at the Pentagon, and it's not difficult for unimaginable things to be happening at the top level of our government, right in front of the American people. Because, the American people actually believe that there are protections and oversights in place to prevent the abuse of military powers.

[RBHam]

48. Who Killed Pat Tillman?

by Michael I. Niman
Published in the Humanist, January/February 2006
The American mass media are like tired old dogs, dutifully fetching official lies on command and dropping them like bones at the feet of an unsuspecting public. We in turn reward them by buying both the products and the myths they sell us. Eventually, however, the products fail and the myths unravel. When the government's popularity wanes sufficiently, despite the support of a compliant press, even old dogs can come up with new tricks, reviving the lost art of investigative reporting.

Take the Pat Tillman story. Remember him? He was the star National Football League defensive back who, after the 9/11 attacks, walked away from his $3.6 million contract with the Arizona Cardinals to enlist as an elite U.S. Army Ranger and go off to Afghanistan to whip some terrorist ass. No matter what your opinion on the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan, or your theory on who was ultimately responsible for the 9/11 attacks, Tillman was clearly acting as a selfless hero in the traditional sense of the word. The media sang only one song at the time-dirtbags in Afghanistan did this to us-and "deterrence" through violent retribution was the only discussable response. Both Tillman and his brother Kevin, like most every American, bought into the program-but they actually volunteered to fight.

After joining up, however, they weren't shipped off to Afghanistan, where they believed terrorists were holed up, but to Iraq to fight in a newly minted war that didn't exist when they signed away control of their lives. Here's where the recruiting poster image deviated from the script. There was a lot more depth to Tillman, who was pursuing a master's degree in history, than one would normally expect of an NFL gladiator. Afghanistan had been an easier sell, but Tillman would never buy the official line on Iraq. At one point, according to a San Francisco Chronicle article published nearly a year and half after his death, he told fellow Rangers fighting in Iraq that the war was, "so fucking illegal." A close friend told the paper, "That's who he was-he totally was against Bush." Tillman's mother clarified, explaining that her son believed the Afghanistan war was justified by the September 11th attacks but "Pat was very critical of the whole Iraq War." Another friend, who served with him, recalled how Tillman admonished fellow Rangers to vote Bush out of office in the forthcoming presidential election.

(snip)

What we have with the Tillman case is a cover-up and a fabrication. What was covered up was the embarrassing reality surrounding the futility of his death-the wasting of an iconic American hero. What was fabricated was a fairy tale story of a heroic battle, one that would support the Bush administration's global war effort while not undermining its military recruiting. What was deliberately ignored was an incident at his funeral-reported in the May 4, 2004, San Francisco Chronicle and New York Daily News-when Tillman's youngest brother, Rich, took offense at words that Tillman was now "with God"; he stated to the gathering, "Pat isn't with God. He's fucking dead. He wasn't religious." More importantly, what was buried was the complex story of Pat Tillman's opposition to the Iraq war and the Bush agenda. Murdered in this fabrication and cover-up, therefore, was the real Pat Tillman. According to his father, "The administration clearly was using this case for its own political reasons. This cover-up started within minutes of Pat's death, and it started at high levels."

more...

http://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/articles/Niman.JanF...

[file83]

49. You see, you don't need DIRECT EVIDENCE of a conspiracy -

You just need to piece together the parts that don't make sense. Taken individually, each of the facts surrounding Pat Tillman's death and the individual actions taken by the government afterwards seem like either bad luck (fog of war), regrettable decisions, or nothing substantial.

But when those facts are combined and considered as a whole body of evidence then, like one of those magic eye 3-D illustrations, and image begins to emerge from the background. The "fog" of war begins to lift and you realize no amount of "bad luck" could possibly explain it. The "regrettable" decisions are maybe not "mistakes" afterall. Some facts that seemed not so "unsubstantial" become illuminating cornerstones of some underlying plot.

Welcome to the world of the 9/11 Truth movement. Pat Tillman is a victim of the same machine (read: system) that "covered up" the facts behind 9/11. His father will be treated the same by the MSM and others that take pleasure in making fun of those struggling to find the truth. His father will be become an outcast, discredited, mocked, and always gagged by the rhetorically impossible task of providing the "DIRECT EVIDENCE" of his "nutty conspiracy theory".

Good luck to Pat Tillman's dad in seeking to unveil the plot behind his son's death. He's going to need it.
:patriot:

[glitch]

64. Like father, like son. His son would be proud of him for risking his own

status and pursuing the truth.

[radio4progressives]

87. Hear! Hear!

He's going to need more than luck. He's going to need help, support and protection.

[autorank]

52. K&R. If there is a diary availalbe and it says this...OMf'ingG!!! n/t

[blm]

59. That diary would have been burned with everything else.

.

[NightOwwl]

70. They definitely did not want his diary to become public knowledge.

Out of all the unthinkable things done to him and his memory, I think burning his diary was the absolute worst. They not only destroyed his body, they destroyed his thoughts, his ideas and his soul.

[VOX]

54. Here's the fake story cooked up by the DOD, as reported on 4/30/2004...

...and picked up by USA Today. It's a complete and utter fabrication. :grr:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2004-04-30-tillman-silver-star_x.htm
USA Today
Posted 4/30/2004
Tillman posthumously awarded prestigious Silver Star
By Billy House, The Arizona Republic

WASHINGTON — Pat Tillman died while leading a team of Army Rangers up a remote southeastern Afghan hill to knock out enemy fire that had pinned down other American soldiers, the Army said Friday.

The Army released details of the former Arizona Cardinals football player's death as it announced that he was posthumously awarded the Silver Star, its third-highest award for combat valor.

Tillman, 27, and his team were initially not in danger from the hostile small-arms and mortar fire when the April 22 ambush began. But when the rear section of their convoy became pinned down in rough terrain, Tillman ordered his team out of its vehicles "to take the fight to the enemy forces" on the higher ground.

As Tillman and other soldiers neared the hill's crest, he directed his team into firing positions, the Army said. As he sprayed the enemy positions with fire from his automatic rifle, he was shot and killed. The Army said his actions helped the trapped soldiers maneuver to safety "without taking a single casualty."

<snip>

[0rganism]

74. This kind of lying should be a prosecutable offense

The real story, yeah, accident or not, it stinks to high heaven. But this... this propaganda bullshit foisted off on us like it was nothing... the people who put it together, whoever they are, ought to be indicted and imprisoned, exposed to the entire world for the liars they are.

If I were Pat Tillman's father, that's where I'd start: who wrote this fucking pile of lies, who ordered them to do so, who pulled the strings on the cover-up.

[Neil Lisst]

57. I felt it was probably intentional from day one.

hate to say it, but that's what I thought and still do

[wordpix2]

69. why? When I read this article it seemed that Tillman could have been shot

accidentally b/c his convoy went back to the area where some of the Afghanis were attacking.

God I hate this fucking war. With a good president, we could have gone after bin Laden covertly and taken him out. Instead, BushCo starts two wars, kills thousands of innocents and bankrupts us to the tune of $9 trillion.

[wordpix2]

73. OK now I've read earlier part of thread and see he was a dissenter

[Neil Lisst]

77. because he's the kind of guy someone will really hate

If you take your average bunch of soldiers, some will love a guy like this, and some will despise him. Given his personality, his size, his looks, his history, his personal wealth, etc. I can see how some soldiers would develop a great big chip about him in their unit.

If he was vocal about some of his political thoughts, that would add to the problem.

Three times in the head? That's hard to do, as a practical matter, without at least one of the shots coming after he's down. Sounds like 3 guys decided to kill him, and did so when they had a chance.

[Joe Chi Minh]

105. That's some synchronisation. Even two bullets.

Nobody, but nobody despises a guy like that. One or two mean-spirited characters, moral dwarfs may have disliked and feared him, but if they despised and loathed anyone it would have been themselves. I think your so far off the mark, it's not even funny.

[Neil Lisst]

116. maybe on your home planet, but here on earth ...

plenty of people hated the guy

[Joe Chi Minh]

159. I didn't deny that some individuals might have hated him.

It's not the same as despising. It's virtually a rule of life that mean-spirited people hate those who remind them of their weeny hearts.

[warrens]

62. That'll teach him to back Kerry

Let that be a warning to the rest of you commies.

Sincerely

Freddy the Freeper

[glitch]

63. It wasn't just an execution - that can be made to look like an accident.

Or a suicide. It was an obvious execution, for purposes of example.

[VolcanoJen]

71. OMG.

This is horrific...

[NightOwwl]

75. Horrific and heartbreaking.

:cry:

[Raine]

79. They "Wellstoned"

him to shut him up. :-(

[Nimrod2005]

86. THEY DID KILL HIM...Rummy Cheney and Co. the Bush crime family needed

a story about a HERO, they killed the real hero to have their God damn story...I suspected this longtime ago.

This is the same as Saddam's statute falling, Jessica whatever emptying her gun fighting before capture, and the recent operation photo op in Nothern Iraq when no shots were fired, but man MANY Pentagon pictures were released showing soldiers wearing sunglasses!!!


THEY KILLED HIM, RUMMY KILLED HIM, BUSH KILLED HIM, CHENEY and RICE KILLED TILLMAN!!!

[SeattleGirl]

91. My God, this is so f-ing sickening!

In all honesty, I did not question it at first, but as soon as questions WERE raised, I started paying close attention, and started to believe more and more that Pat Tillman's death was no accident. Now, reading this article, and some of the other things people have posted here, I have no doubt this was deliberate. The BFEE are homicidal maniacs. Get in their way, say something they don't like, and you may find yourself dead.

I hope the Tillman's find out the truth, but I'm not holding my breath about that.

[blondeatlast]

95. Good God. I generally run from conspiracy theories, but this one

has some real shape, not just coincidence.

God bless Pat Tillman and his family.

[RBHam]

96. Here's some substance. Conspiracy Fact.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848

[NightOwwl]

99. I'm not a conspiracy theorist either...

but when his own dad starts to question whether Pat's death was an accident, one has to sit up and take notice.

[IsIt1984Yet]

97. Most powerful question: "Why do you need to hide an accident"

"How much effort would you put into hiding an accident?"

Unreal.

[PBass]

104. I wouldn't be surprised if they fragged him...

Rangers would tend to be hard core True Believers in Dear Leader and Dear Leader's mission. A guy who didn't believe in the larger mission and was upfront about it, a hotshot athlete with a million dollars in the bank, could attract some negative attention.

The only thing that makes me think it could have been an accident, is that 2 other guys were also wounded at the time (if I remember right).

[Joe Chi Minh]

106. One word: Bollocks.

[tom_paine]

102. 99% chance Pat was murdered by the Imperial Family

A spook in his unit? Someone who shortly thereafter received a promotion or just disappeared bacl wherever Bushevik Assassins like the Anthrax Assassin go when their mission is complete.

Pat Tillman was one guy who they could not silence nor defame his character. So he had to go.

The murder was a tragedy for the Tillman family, America, and ultimately humanity for if the Busheviks win and impose their will on America, the light of freedom may be snuffed out forever.

(we'd better hope the shrunken remainder of the Free World doesn't go BushPutinist)

[Usrename]

107. By all accounts he was one of our best and brightest, a shame.

It is unrelated, but there was also a Colonel that I think was fragged. I don't want to detract from the tragedy in the OP, but

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5029893

See, too odd to believe that an ethicist who volunteered to go over there to investigate would kill himself. Or things were so bad that he did.

[CoffeeCat]

108. This is very tragic...and it's a no brainer...

The truth is always so obvious with these third-class thugs. However, it's so ugly, we hope it isn't true. But it is.

Tillman kept a diary, and if he was against the war--as so many close to him have said--then he was, no doubt, documenting his feelings, experiences and opinions.

Can you imagine what the military thought when they read that diary....A book deal...a movie deal...

The anti-war movement would have a face. The face of a God. A noble, attractive, football star and American hero speaking out against this administration. Furthermore, the guy was Swiftboat-proof.

As everyone knows, Tillman left a lucrative football career to serve his country BECAUSE OF SEPT 11. Like so many Americans (the vast majority) his patriotism was stirred after 9/11. He believed this administration. He gave up everything because of what they said and the story they laid out. Then, he fights in the war and discovers what a sick boondoggle it is. Then, he begins writing about it and makes plans to meet with Chomsky. His feelings and intentions were clear. He would return to the United States to educate American on the illegalities and sickness of this horrendous war.

It probably would have cost Bush the election.

I am sickened by this beyond measure. Three bullets to the head. They lied. As Tillman's father said, "Why lie about a mistake?" This was no mistake. They burned the evidence. Thousands of soldiers have died on the Afghan and Iraq battlefields. How many other uniforms (and body armour) were burned?

I'm wondering about the soldiers who witnessed all of this. They know the truth. Why in the hell aren't they talking? Where are they? It would be interesting to find out who these soldiers are and where they are today.

God.....someone needs to step forward and tell the damn truth. I'm so sick of this. For every fucking BushCo crime and sick act--there are witnesses who know the truth.

Tell!!! Quit enabling the worst world leader our planet has ever experienced. And he damn well is the worst. He does what the worst leaders have done--he just hides behind the lies better.

[bobbieinok]

183. witness soldiers GOT THE MESSAGE....we'll take out anyone

[LynnTheDem]

110. And some US troops agree with Tillman's dad.

I know several in my hubby's unit who sum it up thus;

"blue on blue".

[glitch]

114. Heartache on heartache. nt

[walldude]

117. Dons flame retardant

Ok I really hate to do this, but this whole thing stinks to me as well. But not in the way you all seem to think. I can't wrap my brain around a guy who you all claim to be so "anti-war" would give up a beautiful wife, family and lucrative career in sports to go fight a war he deeply didn't believe in. Sorry I just don't buy it. Tillman seemed to me to be the jock who used to shove me into lockers in high school. The type of guy who wanted to get in the "action", bad enough to enlist in the freakin marines. The type of guy who would endanger his unit by doing stupid "heroic" shit. I have never been in combat, but from what my father told me once you are in the shit all bets are off, political affiliations, religion, all fall by the wayside while you just try to survive, and keep your buddies alive. I seriously doubt that someone would kill this man on the battlefield because of his political convictions. I don't doubt he was killed by his own unit I just doubt it was because he was against the war....

[Chulanowa]

128. If I understand right

he was outspoken against the Iraq war. He signed up after 9/11 and went to Afghanistan. His opinions simply solidified in the process.

[walldude]

133. I still doubt they could have convinced soldiers to kill him

over his political beliefs... it just doesn't ring true to me.

[PBass]

167. who "they"? You misunderstand.

"I still doubt they could have convinced soldiers to kill him"

There is no outside "they", this **accident** would be a result of a few disgruntled Rangers privately taking things into their own hands, then saying OOPS.

I'm going to bet that if the Pentagon would have been involved/aware, what they would have done was put him on desk duty or made him in charge of latrines... (yeah, some war hero!).

Rangers are the fighting elite, career soldiers, and it almost mandates an intense belief in whatever they think the larger mission is. A guy on the team who didn't believe, could encounter some flak... figuratively and literally.

[walldude]

170. Sorry still don't buy it.

The combat vets I've spoken to said that it was highly unlikely he was killed for his political beliefs. I didn't "misunderstand" anything, this thread is full of people claiming that the Administration had this man killed because he would have become big in the anti-war movement.

[Laurab]

138. He went to fight a war he DID believe in - I think

the one in Afghanistan - where Bin Laden was. He was sent to Iraq. THAT'S the war that made him anti-war. You're assuming an awful lot of bad stuff about him being a "stupid jock", but from what I've read, he wasn't stupid at all. He was quite educated.

It would appear that had he survived, he would have been a huge threat to this administration, an administration that, if you've paid any attention at all, doesn't seem to mind ANYONE'S death. I put NOTHING past them. He would have been a well-known face speaking out against the war and against *. I'm not sure his unit would have done it, I'm more inclined to believe one of rumsfailed's ops maybe worked within his unit.

I don't KNOW, of course, but, as I said, I put NOTHING past this administration. At this point I don't see how anyone could. What's another life to them? I think they're responsible for journalist's deaths, as well. I don't even like speculating about what else they might be responsible for.

[walldude]

171. Well as I've been saying I've spoken to other

combat vets and every single one of them has told me it would take more than a man's political beliefs to get him purposfully killed by friendly fire. But what do they know...

[Bridget Burke]

157. Many of us have managed to recover from our High School traumas.

Just because Tillman was an athlete, don't associate him with the jocks you feared. I knew a few dumb jocks, myself. But some bright guys were also good at sports. (My own nieces got athletic scholarships--& they're quite intelligent.)

He enlisted because he thought going to Afghanistan was the best way to counteract 9/11. (Some real Hollywood movie stars left their careers to fight the Axis.) But he thought that Iraq was illegal. Hey, he was even smart!

[walldude]

172. MAybe he was, I didn't know him but I still say

that it would take more than a soldiers political beliefs to get him murdered by his own people. Talk to some combat vets and ask them if they would have killed one of their own on the battlefield because he disagreed with the war. Find me just one that says he would have benn willing to do that....

[cynatnite]

118. The title of your post isn't true

snip:
That soldier, whose name, like many others, was redacted from the Army files provided to The Times by Mr. Tillman, said he believed Rangers had changed their versions of what happened and were not receiving the "due just punishment" for what he concluded was "gross negligence."

The stories, he said in a sworn statement as part of General Jones's subsequent review, "have changed to, I think, help some individuals."

***********

There is nothing in this entire article to indicate Tillman's death was intentional. It was a bunch of stupid guys who knew they fucked up and were trying to cover their tracks which made the situation worse.

That's what I'm reading.

Pat Tillman was not murdered.

[upi402]

120. I'm beginning to think conservatives don't support the troops

:sarcasm:


God that would be sick if true, and I bet his Dad is right.

[Ksec]

121. Ive always thought it was intentional

I believe some jealous grunt got tired of him getting the all star treatment . With all the glorification who would question them? My God , do you remember how the reicht jumped on the soldiers side, after he shot the wounded Iraqi? Nobody would question him.

[peacebaby3]

122. I spoke up about this a good while ago and got accused of wearing a

tinfoil hat.

Not only were there 3 shots to the forehead on Tillman, but according to the original story, the guys who shot him were running downhill. Yea, sure! Three, nearly perfect shots to the head while running downhill...hhhmmmm. Also, Tillman and his group had separated from this other group so all these guys knew they had fellow soldiers out there and when they started shooting at his group, Tillman set off smoke bombs. Now tell me, what enemy is going to set off smoke bombs so they can be located and targeted more easily?!?!?!?

The uniform being burned and diary missing just adds even more concern.

I will say from what I have heard and read, many of the guys in his unit liked him. He was really down to earth and did grunt work just like everyone else even if he out-ranked them and didn't have to do the work. I have wondered if some of his views had caused a division among his unit. Hard to say.

I've smelled BS about his death from day 1. Something is just not right.

Nobody will probably ever know the truth as long as the investigation is conducted by the Pentagon/DOD/military. It needs to be done by a completely independent party. It will still be difficult because I am sure the DOD, etc. will make it unbelievably hard to get any info.

[upi402]

123. Too hip for the crowd always needs aflame proof suit

:toast:

[peacebaby3]

126. LOL! I've gone through a couple of flame proof suits on this board. n/t

[cynatnite]

124. There is nothing in the article to indicate that...

Even the father thinks it was gross negligence on the part of the soldiers who shot him. They knew they screwed up and worsened matters by attempting to cover it up. The family believes the lies continued to protect the screw ups who did it...even as unintentional as it was.

The family is looking for answers to every single question and given Pat Tillman's celebrity status the Pentagon is attempting to placate them. Given how this was fucked up from the beginning starting with a hero's death at the hands of the enemy to the admission it was friendly fire with gaps of information still missing, I highly doubt all their questions will ever be answered.

None of this makes Pat Tillman's killing intentional.

on edit: I also think the family is looking for justice by having those who accidentally killed Pat Tillman jailed. That's understandable. I'd probably want the same thing.

[peacebaby3]

129. I've read the reports, not just this article. There are some very serious

questions regarding what happened. Some stories have been changed as well.

No where in my earlier post did I say it was intentional because I don't know. What I do know is that more happened out there than what was first admitted and even what is admitted now.

The guys who shot him 3 times in the forehead, have said they were on the run, downhill. Shooting someone in the forehead 3 times while running downhill would be nearly impossible. There has also never been any explanation why they would continue to shoot at a group of people who had set off smoke bombs when they knew that half of their unit had gone in that direction.

I'm not convinced either way. My husband is in the military and served in Iraq. He spoke up about what he thought while he was over there and his life was threatened so nothing would surprise me.

[cynatnite]

132. Army Rangers are expert shooters...

it's not impossible and is even realistic. I knew some special forces guys who could hit pretty much anything they aimed at no matter what they were doing. They were half-crazy, too.

You said in your post you spoke up about this and was accused of wearing a tinfoil hat.

I've read the reports and followed this story, too. This thing was fucked up from the very beginning. Everything I have read does not indicate in any way that this was intentional.

The guys who did it tried to cover up their screw-up and made it worse which lead to questions like these being raised. They kept changing their stories when they should've owned up to it from the very beginning. From the moment the first bullet was fired, these guys screwed up and it cost a man's life. They got scared, burned the evidence and lied.

Friendly fire is an unfortunate fact of war, but attempting to cover it up like this sure would get conspiracies going.

[peacebaby3]

152. Sorry, Rangers are not that good. Even one of the best snipers wouldn't

be that good. I know quite a few crazy-as-hell, gung-ho Rangers myself who would certainly argue Tillman's death wasn't intentional, but they would never claim they or anyone else could shoot someone like that under those circumstances. Those soldiers are lying.

First of all, the fact he was shot 3 times in the head is alarming. If you shoot someone in the head, they fall down! How the hell do you shoot them in the head 3 times? In almost in any case, you would have to be standing over them to deliver the next 2 bullets especially to the forehead.

Also, these highly-trained special forces guys wouldn't have noticed that the enemy would NOT set off smoke bombs so they could be seen more clearly????

This story makes no sense and whether it was intentional or not, these guys are lying their asses off.

Even if you think it was "gross negligence" and "an unfortunate act of war", why not call for a complete, independent investigation and require everyone involved to participate fully?

I know if it were my husband who was killed under those circumstances, I would go to my grave fighting for the truth!

[upi402]

135. You really can't prove intentions very well, huh? n/t

[cynatnite]

136. No more than anyone can say it was intentional n/t

[LisaL]

151. The father does not think it was gross negligence.

Read the freaking article before making statements like that.
Family is asking that if it was an accident, why put so much effort into covering it up?
:spank:

[rman]

156. wear it with pride

:tinfoilhat:

[nicknameless]

125. Thank you for posting this.

Nominated

[ribrepin]

127. No death is more painful than the death of a child

But to have to confront the thought, that your child may have been killed by his own troops. I can't imagine the pain. The Tillmans are in my prayers.

[Voltaire99]

137. Lesson: US military is a right wing organization. No lefties need apply.

See the current issue of Harper's Magazine. The cover piece is a roundtable on the possibility of a military coup, with special attention paid to the political composition and machinations of the armed forces.

[cynatnite]

139. No, it is not

I haven't read the article you're referring to, but if you have a link I'd like to.

As a vet and the wife of a vet, I can tell you that you'll find far more dems, libs, progressives, atheists, gays and so on in the enlisted ranks. Officers are more likely to be RW conservs.

Also, take a look at our elected officials. Compare military service by party and you'll find far more dems served than repukes.

[EFerrari]

140. You're right about the numbers but that doesn't reflect

policy makers, unfortunately. It's the three @ssholes at the top that set policy.

Any number of examples, such as the very dangerous and unconstitutional "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

I guess it depends on what we mean by "RW organization". In a way, the armed forces reflect the whole country pretty accurately, don't they?

[cynatnite]

141. The policy makers are the politicians who run the country

It does not make the military a RW organization despite how they've been used by the repukes.

I hated that 'don't ask, don't tell' policy. I thought it was weak and I think Clinton could have done more.

To a degree I think it represents the country with the haves verses the have nots. Majority of the enlisted come from low income families. They need a way to pay for college and/or make a living to support their families. Unfortunately, to get money for a college education a person may die in the process. To me that's a disgrace.

Sometimes I think the military institution is antiquated. It needs to be modernized and updated...and better used.

But with how the 'support the military' mindset is by most people, thanks to the repukes, the military will remain a rigid, die for king and country type of organization that doesn't evolve into something better. I think Clinton was onto something with the changes he was making in the type of world we were living in.

Our military has evolved quite well over the years since it's beginning, but now it seems as if the repukes want to keep it in the WWII John Wayne mentality.

I'm an avid trekker and when watching the show I see how the military can be evolved into something far better than what it is today. It's a tragedy that it's reversed course on so many levels.

[EFerrari]

142. "don't ask, don't tell" is not only weak but dangerous.

It the same dynamic as the undocumented workers have in any American city.

If anything happens to you, you can't report it. It puts bodies in harm's way -- forget about the basic respect every human being is entitled to by our Constitution.

I was sorry Bill Clinton backed off his program but at that time wasn't paying good enough attention to comment.

[Voltaire99]

148. Not right at all.

See my post below.

[Voltaire99]

147. GOP has 4 to 1 majority in military.

"And this is borne out in polls: self-described Republicans outnumber Democrats in the military by more than four to one, and only 7 percent of soldiers describe themselves as liberal."

That's a quote from the round table by the senior editor of Harper's, Bill Wasik. The piece isn't online; you'll have to buy the magazine--which you should do, anyway. It's the oldest continually-published monthly and arguably the best in America. More info here: www.harpers.org

As to what these numbers say about the institution, I maintain they show the military is no longer representative of Americans in the way it was when conscription was in place in the 20th century. Today it is in many ways a right wing clubhouse, one whose bloat and waste drain our economy and deprive our nation of a much better way of life while making it no more secure than would a reasonably-sized military. Indeed, it's likely a smaller army would increse our security by making it harder for our politicians to conduct frivolous wars.

We should demobilize the army, as sensibly was done in the past.

[EFerrari]

149. LOL

[oasis]

143. Diary burned. Uniform and body armor burned. This cannot go unanswered. nt

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[peacebaby3]

158. Around here, we don't believe soldiers are "contract killers". That's

very offensive to the DU vets, current members of the military, and their families.

[Trevelyan]

163. PeaceBaby, I understand why you object to labeling people who join the

military as contract killers. My dad was a Navy veteran. But the person who said it was talking about anyone who might join now, under the Bush dictatorship and the two wars going on now, one of which, Iraq, is clearly illegal and in Afghanistan, the torture MK-ULTRA cage prisoner horrors are also illegal and the troops are there to insure that the oil pipeline can go through their country and the opium productions continues to grow at a four-fold rate and that the transport of same is protected for the BFEE continuation of their major drug trafficking.

Things have changed in the past 5 years as so many people have noted.:shrug: :cry:

[Name removed]

164. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SunDrop23]

161. In the end Pat will be demonized, his family destroyed.

Mark my words. When this is all said and done any shard of respectability Pat Tillman may have had will be long gone and his family will be destroyed - jobs lost, identity theft, something to that effect.

[Trevelyan]

162. This is so sad. I read the bogus "accident" story about a year ago in WaP

and they made it sound like a big deal --- after covering the FUBAR, the military comes clean and calls it an "accident".

There is a thread on http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition talking about the attempts by Pat Tillman's father to get the truth from the military and the fact that Tillman told a buddy that what they were doing in Iraq was illegal as shit. And the strange burning of Tillman's armor and clothes to coverup the way he was killed. The bush regime did not want a high profile patriot who joined the military because of being fooled by 911 coming back to the US and like Cindy Sheehan telling the truth about what the bush regime is doing in Iraq and becoming a former soldier against the war.

AOL Messageboard FReepers are still saying that liberals are murdering the troops whenever any Bush created atrocity does make the frontpage of the MSM.

[wicket]

165. kick

:kick:

[Joe Chi Minh]

179. Conspiracy nuts!

Well, how about this, then? Yesterday morning, I spotted huntsmen in full regalia chasing what looked like a very distinctively-marked fox. Anyway, that afternoon I was walking in the same area with some companions, when we came across what looked like the carcass of this very same fox, apparently torn to pieces by the hounds. At least, that’s what my companions suggested, since I had mentioned to them the hunt scene I’d witnessed earlier that day.

However, it seemed to me that this poor fox had simply died of natural causes and his carcass had then been chewed on by some other beastie – tenderised, so to speak – before it had decided it wasn’t worth the effort. You see I’ve been on safaris in Zimbabwe and have personally witnessed the opportunistic feeding behaviour of predatory carnivores, and I was able to immediately recognise the tell-tale signs of such opportunistic prandial behaviour. There’s really no substitute for expert knowledge. Ahem.

I don’t know… all these conspiracy nuts, eh…? Not only will they not believe the Pat Tillman was accidentally killed by “friendly fire”, I’ll guarantee to you that they wouldn’t believe the only logical alternative: that he was killed by a magic bullet fired by a certain lone crazed gunman by the name of Mustapha Aleee Harvey Bin Oswald… Ya cain’t get more mistrustful and flakey that now, can ya? Oooooh, noooo. They prefer to believe some pie-in-the-sky conspiracy stuff!